Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-01-26

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00:15 tempire When the new job asks an open-ended question of what computer you need, with the only limitations being, "No Windows"...
00:15 tempire seems like a good choice
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01:55 Caelum sri: yeah I use unpack for fixed-width records, e.g.: perl -le '$_ = "foobar"; my ($foo, $bar) = unpack "a3a3", $_; print "$foo|$bar"'
01:55 Caelum had to deal with lots of those in payment processing
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02:16 marty wtf - Starbuck is the "harbinger of death"?  You gotta be frakin kidding me
02:17 marty this bsg thing is gettin weird.  - but gooooood
02:18 Caelum wow, TT macros are fucking awesome
02:18 Caelum does ep have macros?
02:21 marty Caelum:  Maybe this...  http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/G​uides/Rendering#Reusable_template_blocks
02:22 Caelum yeah that's the same thing I'm doing :)
02:22 Caelum cool
02:23 * marty hugs ep
02:23 Caelum ep looks very cool
02:24 Caelum but I didn't want to introduce too many unnecessary changes here so I'm using ::Plugin::TtRenderer
02:24 Caelum in which I already fixed one bug and need to fix another tonight
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09:49 azawawi hi
09:49 azawawi When did Mojolicious get jquery 1.9?
09:50 azawawi hmmm 3.81  2013-01-17
09:50 azawawi sri: since 1.9 removes deprecated API. Is it possible to include the development jquery migration plugin also.
09:51 azawawi sri: that way we can debug when things go wrong
09:51 azawawi sri: http://jquery.com/upgrade-gui​de/1.9/#jquery-migrate-plugin
09:52 azawawi sri: .toggle(function, function, ... ) removed | jQuery.browser() removed | .live() removed | .die() removed | jQuery.sub() removed
09:58 sri azawawi: the bundled jquery is for internal use only
09:58 azawawi i use it :)
09:58 sri don't
09:58 azawawi interesting
09:59 Britzel Didn't we have tha tvery same discussion just yesterday? :)
09:59 azawawi i wasnt here yesterday... backlogging :)
10:00 Britzel what sri ays - don't do it.
10:00 Britzel +s
10:00 * azawawi backlogs
10:07 azawawi http://tiny.cc/1pjirw  # done. sri++ Britzel++
10:08 azawawi Thanks to morbo, im able to edit farabi (web-based perl editor) using farabi :)
10:08 azawawi sri++
10:16 sri \o/
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12:06 yakubori o/
12:39 marcus sri: seems it was a very good decision to move the mojo assets. A lot of people hasn't gotten the jquery for internal use memo.
12:39 sri marcus: it's a bit odd, no documentation mentions it
12:40 * sri wonders how people even find it
12:45 marcus "You can't make anything idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious." -- Ron Burns
12:57 * sri answers to the perl is dead thread :o
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13:08 Britzel sri: uri?
13:09 sri http://groups.google.com/group/mojolicio​us/browse_thread/thread/49408ce60f9227da
13:09 Britzel tks
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13:12 rhaen_fork Yo Mojo. Yo!
13:14 yakubori I was mentioning in perl-help, sri, I think there is some discrimination against Perl devs, regardless of what else they can do, when they look into moving into other positions; be it server-side in another language, or client side coding, it doesn't seem to be a plus to mention Perl experience.
13:15 rhaen_fork yakubori: Perl experience is always a good thing :)
13:16 yakubori for Perl jobs, it's worked wonders for me :D
13:16 rhaen_fork yakubori: same here :D
13:16 rhaen_fork however, my job is now to drive people in the "new" Perl and that works incredibly well
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13:50 sri yakubori: that's a silly thing to say, there is no discrimination against developers that know perl
13:53 yakubori none at all, eh?
13:53 yakubori :P
13:54 sri which company discriminates?
13:54 yakubori not one single shop on the whole planet would possibly tell a developer to take a hike, becuase they're familiar with perl? :D
13:55 sri my question stands
13:55 yakubori probably best I don't mention a name. since it is just my thought, afterall
13:55 sri oh yea... of course
13:56 sri honestly, making this stuff up is not cool
13:56 yakubori i'm not making something up. it's not cool to make accusations either.
13:57 yakubori i was turned away from JS job becuase of Perl knowledge, explicitly. I only won't mention a name because I can't say for sure if that's *truely* the reason. it's just what I was told.
13:59 sri even if what you said is true, how does that justify your generalization above?
13:59 yakubori i was also ribbed in an interview for a python job at a not-to-be-named-linux-company becuase of my Perl experience
14:00 sri i've dealth with recruiters from many many big tech companies over the years, not once have i encountered discrimination against perl
14:00 yakubori it doesn't "justify" it as fact, sri. It's my thought on the matter. it's why I said 'I think there is some…"
14:01 sri and i think that's silly
14:01 yakubori fair enough, I think it's silly for you to make the rebuttal that "there is no discrimination" so matter of factly
14:03 yakubori i wan't trying to start an argument, and apologize if my opinion offended you
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14:03 sri i thinks it's much more probable that you're exaggerating and what they really told you was that they are not interested because your *primary* language was perl, and *not* python or js
14:03 yakubori i just see a lot of good coming out of the Perl community, and think it sucks that so many people shit all over it
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14:06 sri if there is really discrimination against perl, you have to call them out publically, until that happens i don't believe it
14:06 yakubori right, I guess that's how I should interpret that "Perl's a dead language" in an interview
14:06 yakubori or that it's "impossible to maintain"
14:07 yakubori I had someone tell me it was "irrelevant" in relation to ptyhon
14:07 yakubori and, sure, i'm a donk programmer, but statements like that go beyond, "you're not expereiced enough with $language"
14:08 yakubori which i'll call bullshit on anyway. if you can code, you can code. period. it's a matter of syntax and best practice after that.
14:09 sri so, what you're saying is you met an idiot, that doesn't make it discrimination
14:10 sri perl code is hard to maintain if you don't have discipline
14:11 sri and python code is always boring and unimaginative
14:11 vervain In my experience python folks in particular like to suggest that perl is 'wrong' :-/
14:11 sri which is not an unreasonable conclusion from their point of view
14:12 yakubori i wan't trying to start an argument with you, sri. nor piss on your cornflakes. it was just an opinion based on a couple of experiences during non-perl-dev interviews. i'll keep them to myself, it that will help.
14:13 sri after all, the python motto is pretty much "there is only one way to do it"
14:13 vervain *nod*  The reciprocal of which is why I personally don't like using python. :-)
14:13 vervain <snap>
14:13 sri yakubori: if you poke me i might answer ;)
14:13 vervain yakubori: I think you are both right, but sri was right about 'you met an idiot' being the real problem.  Descrimination through idiocy! :-)
14:15 vervain It's the PHP folks I like, they get glassy eyed when I tell them that PHP was originally written in perl. :-)
14:19 yakubori it is idiocy, vervain. i can agree with the muddy comments about Perl and side with them in some cases. I just don't like the fact that it Perl seems to be a creature best kept in the basement, if you will, to so many other dev shops
14:22 yakubori s/side with/make/
14:22 yakubori anyway… no shit storm intended. promise :)
14:24 sri many are also just misinformed, when i meet those i just educate them
14:28 * marty is anxiously awaiting perl6 ... and rooting for the cylons.
14:28 sri cylons!
14:29 marty so say we all
14:29 vervain The cylons are sexier after all.
14:30 marty so much sexier.  You can tell bsg was written by/for sexually frustrated guys, but that's ok with me.   the humans kinda suck.
14:31 marty I'm gunna try and finish the last season this weekend.
14:32 sri make sure to watch the specials too
14:32 sri the plan and razor
14:32 * marty nods
14:32 sri razor was somewhere in between, don't keep it for later
14:32 marty Watched razor.  gunna was the plan after the first half of season four.   (thats when the cylons told me to watch it)
14:33 marty s/was/watch/
14:33 sri hmm
14:33 * sri is not sure when he watched the plan
14:33 yakubori there seems to be some discrimination against cylons from humans... :D :D :D
14:34 marty Apparently it came out after season 4.  but one of the guides online said if I watch it in the middle of season 4 it will make the ending more enjoyable and tie up more loose ends.
14:35 marty I want to have a better reaction to the ending than this...   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuoVwA7AsFI
14:36 yakubori although caprica was not as good, it would have been nice to have some closure from that series.
14:36 sri it's not as funny when you understand german ;p
14:36 sri the caprica ending was pretty great imo
14:37 yakubori they should crowd source season 2 or something
14:37 yakubori err fund
14:38 yakubori "just $0.30 a day…"
14:38 jberger they can have sad sarah mccaughlin music playing in the background
14:39 jberger and yeah, cylon chicks are hot
14:39 yakubori HAHAA
14:39 * sri wonders if they didn't air the long ending in the us
14:39 jberger marty: glad you're enjoying it
14:39 jberger o/ morning all
14:40 marty haha.  that's right.  reading subtitles that don't match the dialog probably ruins the effect.
14:42 marty Just the thought of hitler telling his generals to sell his bsg action figures on eBay and set his Tivo to record Heros cracks me up.  :)
14:42 marty jberger: Yes, I am enjoying it.  Pretty good show.
14:43 marty I guess I'll do Caprica next
14:43 sri when i saw the final episode of caprica there was an extended ending where they showed what would have happened in season in like 10 minutes
14:43 sri *season 2
14:44 jberger I liked bsg's end actually, then again, I had just finished LOST and compared to that ending, anything is good
14:44 sri with the rise of the cylons and everything
14:46 marty I still hope the cylons pull it through and survive.  I'm indifferent to the humans, except Helo, I like him.
14:46 sri http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbZjiil8oWM&a​mp;feature=plcp&amp;list=PLF5BC6F81AADB071B # i think that might be it, but it's not available in my country...yada yada
14:46 marty Well, some of the cylons I don't like, of course.  :)
14:46 sri SPOILER! btw
14:47 sri marty: don't click ;p
14:47 * marty is not clicking.
14:48 sri look at that, i can watch it on veoh http://www.veoh.com/watch/v20857846JzpmC3Th
14:48 marty If I was writing the show, I'd have the sharons, 6's, and Helo survive.  Man, there would be some good looking offspring from that group.   :)
14:48 sri marty: also don't click ;p
14:48 jberger sri: youtube link is dead
14:49 sri jberger: veoh link should work though
14:50 marty I'm still waiting for the line in bsg "can't we all just get along".
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14:58 yakubori there should be a UFC fighter with the nickname "Cylon"
15:00 yakubori probably some kind of copyright mess with that though...
15:00 jberger sri: yeah just watched it
15:00 jberger interesting
15:00 sri jberger: didn't they air that ending in the us?
15:01 jberger I didn't watch caprica actually
15:01 sri ah
15:01 jberger I wanted to make sure it stuck
15:01 * sri thinks he saw the canadian cut
15:01 jberger I hate it when shows I like get cancelled, so I have taken to waiting a season
15:02 sri caprica was too slow to be successful
15:02 jberger better to not have liked them, than to have liked them and then had them taken away
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15:02 * jberger has also not watched firefly
15:02 sri :O
15:02 jberger everyone says I would like it
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15:02 jberger but its built-in letdown
15:02 sri WATCH IT ALREADY! NOW!!!
15:03 jberger of COURSE I would like it, but then it ends!
15:03 sri firefly gets wrapped up with the serenity movie
15:03 jberger yeah, with that now I probably could
15:03 jberger consider it like an extended mini-series
15:04 sri you're not allowerd to talk about scifi if you've not watched firefly...
15:04 jberger oh well, winter is coming :D
15:04 sri you know nothing jberger
15:05 memowe \o
15:05 * jberger sticks tempire with the pointy end
15:06 jberger o/
15:06 sri \o
15:06 * sri wonders when the new season starts
15:07 vervain jberger: I'm just south of you, go outside, I assure you it's winter already. :-)
15:07 jberger not sure, though in truth I'm more excited about the next book, when is that I wonder?
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15:07 jberger vervain, we just got our first inch of snow in chicago
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15:09 * jberger suspects that vervain missed the 90* turn the room took
15:16 jberger I got so much more re-reading the books this last summer
15:16 jberger you can't possibly pick up everything the first time
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15:17 jberger the level of detail early in the books is the same as later, but since you have no context it just goes over your head
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15:30 azawawi hi
15:31 azawawi is there something like Java's session.setAttribute("name", value) in mojolicious?
15:33 jberger $c->session( 'name' => 'value
15:33 jberger ')
15:33 vervain session( foo => bar )
15:34 azawawi and what is $c ?
15:34 azawawi any documentation i can refer to?
15:34 vervain http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojoli​cious/Guides/Growing#State_keeping
15:35 jberger sorry, $c is the controller instance
15:35 azawawi Got it ... thanks
15:35 jberger thats by convention in the mojo docs
15:35 vervain In the docs I referenced it's aka $self->
15:36 jberger when its self, its often the application instance or the controller
15:36 azawawi interesting
15:36 jberger aka anything that a helper is a method on
15:36 azawawi but not quite like Java
15:37 jberger azawawi, I'm not sure what the Java code does
15:37 azawawi session.setAttribute('...') stores it in the server-side memory and possible persistant
15:37 azawawi and just stores a cookie that references that session id
15:37 azawawi hence no memory limit
15:37 azawawi instead of the 4k limit
15:39 azawawi so when i store using $controller->session(foo => bar), it is actually stored in the client-side and is encrypted by my application secret key... right?
15:48 azawawi jberger: btw, farabi is moving nicely again. i can now edit farabi in farabi using morbo
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15:49 jberger cool
15:49 jberger yeah, the session is store in the client side,
15:49 jberger but of course that could just be a key to a server side storage record
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15:49 jberger and then you could do anything you want
15:50 azawawi i have also added coffeescript support :)
15:51 azawawi https://metacpan.org/source/​AZAWAWI/Farabi-0.26/Changes
15:52 azawawi how is galileo btw?
15:57 jberger doing well
15:57 jberger I finished my wrapper of DBIx::Class::DeploymentHandler
15:57 jberger so now it automagically does schema upgrades
15:58 jberger and sri added websocket/JSON testing at my urging
15:58 jberger so now all the client/server data transmission is tested
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16:09 azawawi so basically Galileo is a websocket mojo app, right?
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16:10 azawawi I used the traditional http post method approach in farabi but i was thinking yesterday that i need to move to websocket to issue when the server is down. Can also be helpful for collaborative editing...
16:11 jberger azawawi, in truth I just wanted to not have to deal with ajaxy stuff
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16:12 jberger I liked the idea of websockets so I ran with it
16:12 jberger I probably could have done the same stuff with jQuery and ajax, but eh, I decided to "do it right"
16:12 jberger ;-P
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20:36 wircus_ hmm
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20:47 sri hmm
20:54 marcus <3 Chrome Developer Tools so much
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21:30 marty Boomer kidnaped Hera - she sucks!
21:31 * marty is on a bsg break
21:32 jberger hahaha
21:33 jberger vervain, Galileo 0.016 released, with dump command!
21:33 marty jberger++
21:34 vervain jberger: Groovy
21:35 jberger sri: did you know that commands are subject to Getopt::Long policy set in Mojolicious
21:35 jberger ?
21:35 jberger seems like a flaw in Getopt::Long, but perhaps it should be mentioned
21:36 jberger with a line like GetOptions('directory=s', \my $dir)
21:36 jberger in a command
21:36 jberger then run mojo mycommand -d mydir
21:36 jberger doesn't work
21:36 * sri is not even sure how Getopt::Long exactly works, just assumed the second import would reset the configuration
21:36 jberger I would have thought so too
21:37 jberger like I said, probably a flaw in Getopt::Long
21:37 jberger but took quite a bit of head-scratching just no
21:37 jberger now
21:37 sri let me know if you can find out details
21:37 jberger will do
21:38 jberger in truth your policy is probably better, but I'm usually to lazy to do it right
21:38 jberger the result was unexpected
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21:52 jberger sri: it looks like if you didn't want to affect the options, you could either:
21:52 jberger a) call Getopt::Long::Configure() after GetOptions()
21:52 jberger or b) use the OO interface
21:53 jberger I'm assuming the problem is Mojolicious::Commands.pm
21:53 jberger I'm still testing though
21:53 sri pretty sure the OO interface is global too
21:54 * sri remembers miyagawa talk about that
21:55 jberger ok, well the Configure('default') call should be easy to implement
21:55 jberger I freshening my branch
21:55 jberger expect a pull request soon
22:13 jberger cannot be done
22:13 jberger sri: the problem is that loading happens at one time, then commands run at another
22:14 jberger the only way to fix it is to not load any other commands when one is to be executed
22:14 jberger really Getopt::Long should have better options handling
22:14 jberger but I have a feeling that ship has sailed
22:15 sri oh right, compile time configuration messes everything up
22:16 jberger right, it doesn't use a hints hash
22:16 jberger which would work
22:16 jberger nor does it (really) allow localizable variables
22:18 jberger what it really means is that every call to GetOptions (that you don't control top to bottom) you should call Getopt::Long::Configuration( ... configs ) just before GetOptions
22:21 jberger anyway, whatever the last call to use Getopt::Long ':config ....' is the one that gets used by every ->run afterwards
22:29 sri jberger: you're wrong though
22:29 jberger https://github.com/jberger/Galileo/blob​/master/lib/Galileo/Command/dump.pm#L26
22:29 jberger I would be happy to be so
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22:30 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/lPYo1w
22:30 good_news_everyone mojo/master d549c7f Sebastian Riedel: fixed small Getopt::Long configuration bug in Mojolicious::Commands
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22:31 sri jberger: no clue how to test it properly, but a custom configuration in individual commands works
22:31 jberger yes it does
22:31 jberger I just did that in my Galileo commands
22:32 sri i mean without setting 'default' yourself
22:32 jberger but if you don't specify in your module, you get whatever the last call to Getopt::Long::Configure or Getopt::Long::import was set
22:33 sri which is now 'default'
22:33 jberger right
22:33 jberger IF you do that in your own script
22:34 sri we control the command line interface
22:34 sri so it should be set to default once a command is reached
22:35 jberger https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/ma​ster/lib/Mojolicious/Commands.pm#L70
22:35 * sri is not following
22:35 sri that doesn't load all commands
22:36 sri we load just the one command, so it should be fine
22:36 * jberger misunderstood
22:37 jberger ok let me check now
22:37 sri we load them all only to make the list
22:37 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/ma​ster/lib/Mojolicious/Commands.pm#L84
22:37 jberger I stand corrected
22:37 sri \o/
22:38 jberger ok let me see if your change helps my command
22:39 jberger I am thankful that installing mojolicious takes only a minute on standard hardware
22:39 jberger cause that means it installs in 5 on mine :-/
22:40 sri cpanm -n http://latest.mojolicio.us
22:40 sri :)
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22:43 * sri thinks he might have an idea how to test it
22:43 jberger yep, seems to fix it
22:44 jberger sri++
22:49 jberger ok I'll bet set for 0.017 release once 3.83 goes out
22:49 jberger s/bet/be/
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22:50 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/eH1Ncg
22:50 good_news_everyone mojo/master 7af0b1f Sebastian Riedel: test localized Getopt::Long configuration
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22:51 sri the thought that someone might actually do that in a real app scares me though
22:51 sri call app->start(...) for different commands
22:51 sri in an app
22:53 * jberger washes his hand
22:58 jberger if you are worried that the test might convince them to, then comment on the test
22:59 sri naah, we have similar tests already, was just a general though
22:59 sri t
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