Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-03-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
21:13 ilbot2 joined #mojo
21:13 Topic for #mojo is now Mangolicious! | http://mojolicio.us | http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/today
21:18 sri oh look, a log bot \o/
21:33 maxhq1 joined #mojo
21:33 kthakore oh hi logging bot 23
21:50 gryphon joined #mojo
21:53 good_news_everyone joined #mojo
21:53 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih tagged v3.88 at 3398322: http://git.io/9Yv4RA
21:53 good_news_everyone left #mojo
22:03 * marcus is having great fun playing with html5 canvas
22:04 * jberger is designing a web interface for initial configuration of Galileo (rather than command line)
22:05 sri marcus: Core HTML5 Canvas is one of my favorite new tech books!
22:06 marcus jberger++ # building the next wordpress
22:07 marcus sri: thanks for the tip.
22:07 rem_lex joined #mojo
22:13 sri chansen++ # fixed the Encode leak https://github.com/dankogai/p5-enc​ode/issues/8#issuecomment-14356716
22:19 chansen =)
22:38 jberger joined #mojo
22:41 jberger the old sv_2mortal bites again! In a core module no less
22:41 jberger chansen++
22:51 marcus chansen++
22:51 mattastrophe joined #mojo
22:53 chansen sri: If you want faster decoding/encoding of UTF-8, you should checkout Unicode::UTF8
23:07 jberger http://www.dagolden.com/index.php/1913​/is-perl-6-pointless-hopeless-or-just-​not-done/comment-page-1/#comment-27094
23:10 marcus jberger: so bored with this discussion. Make nice things instead ;)
23:11 jberger marcus: I disagree, only if the discussion continues will the few people that must make these decisions keep thinking about them
23:11 jberger we make lots of nice thigs
23:11 jberger things
23:12 good_news_everyone joined #mojo
23:12 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/IqlgwQ
23:12 good_news_everyone mojo/master b092699 Sebastian Riedel: small optimization
23:12 good_news_everyone left #mojo
23:12 jberger people on reddit/so/hn/etc still think perl can be written by pounding on the keyboard
23:12 sri chansen: will do
23:13 marcus jberger: well, if they were using more perl software, they might think otherwise.
23:13 jberger but they wont, thats what I'm saying
23:13 jberger why would you use a language which is dead and the sucessor never lived
23:13 marcus because it has a really nice cms?
23:14 marcus that's why I tend to end up using php ...
23:14 jberger I don't think this, but other people wont consider Perl
23:14 jberger Mojolicious is node.js for Perl, why don't more people talk about it?
23:14 jberger because its Perl
23:15 marcus jberger: I've got lots of client projects using mojolicious ;)
23:15 jberger and yes we should make nice things
23:15 * sri agrees that what perl needs is more killer projects
23:16 Averna joined #mojo
23:16 sri one wordpress and there is a lot more interest again
23:16 marcus If it wasn't for mojolicious, *I* would probably be coding in ruby or node now.
23:16 suy every language needs more popular projects. wordpress, drupal, joomla, mediawiki... all PHP
23:17 jberger Perl needs a clear future, and a little less "secret" knowledge that is a barrier to newcomers
23:17 suy everybody rants about how PHP sucks, but still the popular apps are written in it
23:17 sri you market languages through successful projects, not fancy logos or marketing material (it doesn't hurt of course)
23:17 jberger we can do this today, if only we can have a new name or version number
23:17 marcus jberger: I think that's a load of crap
23:18 marcus jberger: a new name or version number doesn't change much in p5p
23:18 jberger "Should I do this project in Perl 5? No, Perl 5 is hard and Perl 6 will never show up."
23:19 sri "should i do this project in php?"
23:19 jberger no, lets do it in ruby or node
23:19 marcus I just bid on a new project which I will be forced to do in php.
23:19 sri jberger: and that's where you're wrong
23:19 marcus because the client listed 4 viable cmses, and they are all php.
23:19 jberger sri: I want to be wrong
23:19 sri php is much much bigger than ruby and node
23:19 jberger oh, I know that
23:20 marcus hn hipster is not real life
23:20 marcus +s
23:20 marcus we still have some ways to go with super easy deployment before we beat php.
23:20 sri in reality, ruby is only starting slowly to leave the rails niche
23:22 marcus I actually think perl5 is in a much better place now than it was a few years ago. Let's not despair
23:22 marcus we have regular releases, for one.
23:22 jberger marcus: I'm not, as you can see, I'm still building things
23:22 marcus Building your own perl is a lot more accepted than it was, even if we still have some ways to go
23:22 marcus we might even get sub signatures some time.
23:23 jberger but the sentiments I'm sharing, those from outsiders about Perl are not just my guess, they are real concerns
23:23 marcus Still hoping for decent GC at some point... ;)
23:23 marcus jberger: the main concern I hear from people who decide this things (not people who write comments on the internet), is it's too hard to find enough qualified perl people.
23:24 sri jberger: PHP and C++ are hated even more than Perl
23:24 jberger people really think that perl 6 will replace perl 5, and they really think that perl 5 is something akin to FORTRAN or COBOL
23:24 sri it doesn't matter
23:24 ka2u joined #mojo
23:24 jberger but how does clarifying that path hurt anyone?
23:24 sri what could be problematic is that Perl is not taught enough at universities
23:25 marcus sri: yeah, that is a very real concern.
23:25 jberger sri: definitely
23:25 jberger and why don't they? because "its old"
23:25 sri the problem is not lack of perl jobs, but lack of applicants
23:25 marcus jberger: I think renaming perl5 could have some negative consequences as well.
23:25 jberger (I don't want to rename it, I want 7)
23:26 marcus jberger: hasn't larry said a definitive no to that?
23:26 jberger I don't care anymore
23:26 marcus O^o
23:26 jberger which is why I'm willing to take a rename
23:26 jberger but if it were up to me, 7 makes sense
23:27 marcus ok, enjoy your revolution. I'm going to bed ;-)
23:27 jberger :-)
23:27 sri jberger: you're a scientist, does ruby even have an alternative to PDL?
23:27 jberger no, and neither does node
23:27 * sri only knows NumPy
23:27 jberger but python and ROOT have use beat 99-1 in userbase
23:28 jberger and Mathematica is probably going to be kind by default eventually
23:28 jberger since NOTHING is taught in scientific courses anymore
23:28 jberger and Mathematica is the Word of scientific computing
23:29 jberger :-(
23:30 jberger in the end I just want to see the version discussion continue, and maybe eventually Larry will see that Perl 5 needs his love
23:30 sri i don't see that happening
23:30 jberger I don't either
23:30 sri perl6 on the jvm seems to have a good chance though
23:31 jberger I'm not moving to 6
23:31 sri the language is mostly ready, it's just the vm and stdlib missing
23:31 jberger I have too much invested here
23:31 jberger I need Perl 5 ++
23:31 sri if perl6 becomes usable, i'm porting
23:31 jberger I know
23:31 jberger my mojo projects are not what I'm talking about
23:31 jberger my scientific stuff is tied deeply to perl 5
23:31 jberger xs
23:32 jberger pdl
23:32 sri not like perl5 will be going away for a very very long time
23:32 jberger right, and its for that reason that I'm not worried
23:32 jberger but she sure could use a facelift
23:32 sri BioPerl is also still really strong
23:32 jberger and definitely not moving to 6 :-)
23:33 sri BioPerl and PDL are the kind of killer projects i mean
23:33 sri break into new niches
23:33 jberger PDL has active development now again too
23:34 jberger two new graphical libraries in the last couple years
23:34 jberger include a new one, totally written from scratch for PDL
23:34 sri everybody is looking at web dev, but there's a lot more out there
23:35 jberger I'm actually planning a PDL/Mojo/Javascript web-base plotting library interface
23:35 sri node.js fails terribly at the everything else
23:35 sri same for php
23:35 jberger right, but wouldn't it be nice if we could break through the fud about Perl, and knock some cruft off in the process?
23:36 sri ruby is making its way into devops circles with puppet and similar projects
23:36 jberger we can and will keep fighting, but a little press would help, a well as some more sane defaults
23:36 sri that's something perl could have done
23:36 sri or rather *should* have
23:36 jberger sri: definitely
23:37 jberger I want Galileo to bring people to Perl
23:38 jberger a cms that installs straight from CPAN sounds friendly to me
23:38 jberger I really was amazed that nothing like it existed already, when I went to look for one
23:39 sri bricolage used to be very popular, and movabletype before that
23:39 sri now it's all drupal
23:40 jberger yeah
23:40 jberger did they install straight from CPAN or did you have to setup a database first and install from a downloaded zip?
23:41 sri zip
23:41 sri install from cpan is unfriendly for people outside the perl community
23:41 sri your users might not even be programmers after all
23:42 * sri hates it when some console tool for a cloud service needs to be installed via pip
23:42 jberger how hard is `cpan Galileo`?
23:43 sri it's not isolated, might mess up your system
23:43 suy jberger: the problem is not installing. Is maintaining. What does `cpan Galileo`? Not obvious to me that I'm learning Perl from 0.
23:43 sri yea, your users are not programmers
23:43 * tempire purchases creative cloud
23:43 jberger it can easily be isolated, and if they install anything via apt-get they have the same risk
23:43 sri tempire: :O
23:44 sri jberger: not exactly, apt-get means clean uninstall
23:44 suy jberger: err, no. Via APT I get *all* the packages
23:44 jberger suy: ? what do you mean by all?
23:45 suy jberger: my shell, my editor, my web server...
23:45 sri what movabletype did right imo was bundle all dependencies in the zip, you dropped it somewhere and it mostly just worked
23:45 suy to me, APT is *the* system, so it can't mess up with my system
23:45 jberger suy: try installing Galileo, you'll see you don't need any other things
23:45 jberger :-)
23:45 jberger it can and does
23:45 jberger you can install Galileo without root, in your one ~
23:45 jberger own
23:46 sri why do people like php apps?
23:46 sri because they can drop them somewhere, not care about anything, and it just kinda works... good enough
23:46 jberger sure
23:46 jberger but they still have to have apache+mysql+mod_php all working
23:47 jberger and thats not that easy
23:47 jberger they also have to make a table, add a db user
23:47 suy jberger: I haven't yet installed mojolicious through cpan. Before running it, I tried to learn what will the commands do, and I don't want stuff under ~/perl5. If I'm going to have packages of code, I'd better understand what's going to be done.
23:48 jberger suy: perlbrew makes this really easy
23:48 ObseLeTe joined #mojo
23:49 suy I just want: 1. Fetch the code. 2. Run whatever compiler (or equivalent, if any) is needed. 3. Put it under ~/local/whatever.
23:49 suy I'm too used to that for native code, that I feel bad not not being able to do it that way.
23:50 jberger suy: I can only make it as easy as I can make it ;-)
23:50 suy jberger: :)
23:51 suy I'm probably wrong in my ways. But initially, I want to do it my way. With time I will learn other ways.
23:52 jberger suy: my other major project is Alien::Base, something that makes it easy for authors to provide C libraries for Perl in a way that is not harmful to your system in any way
23:52 * suy looks
23:53 jberger to me, the fact that Perl+perlbrew+CPAN can be used safely by a non-priviledged user
23:53 jberger is an amazing thing
23:53 suy indeed
23:53 jberger and I would like C code to be delivered via that same channel (cpan) and that same localization (perlbrew)
23:53 jberger thats Alien::Base
23:54 jberger suy: read this: https://metacpan.org/module/Alien
23:54 jberger but when it says "no framework" I'm building that framework
23:55 * sri thinks mojolicious + mango could be a good foundation for "download zip, drop it somewhere and stuff just works" apps
23:55 jberger and in a way that is perlbrew+local::lib friendly
23:55 sri jberger: thing is, normal people don't want to learn how to use perlbrew
23:56 jberger no, but webhosts do
23:56 * sri is a programmer, and he gets annoyed when he has to set up a virtualenv
23:56 jberger then use your host perl, it works too
23:56 sri then you mess up the system though
23:56 jberger but you have root and know how to use it :-)
23:56 jberger nope, its still local with Alien::Base :-D
23:57 jberger Alien::Base libraries are only Perl scoped
23:57 jberger you can't use them elsewhere
23:57 jberger I'm of the opinion that installing via cpan should never change anything but your active perl

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