Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-04-09

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Time Nick Message
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00:17 tempire I started planning a book out last year
00:18 tempire But even on the high end, the potential revenue didn't seem worth the time
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03:16 StylusEater hello
03:16 StylusEater anyone know a good place to get a "perl" shirt?
03:16 StylusEater ideally something that would support the foundation
03:19 sri tempire: but did your calculation include a new edition every year? ;p
03:19 sri which would be much less work
03:21 sri StylusEater: i think most perl shirts are conference specific and limited editions
03:21 * sri hugs his perl5 raptor shirt http://media.tumblr.com/7ae8f6c778f99e77f7b7ed​4bfdbbab08/tumblr_inline_mialmbvvCG1qz4rgp.png
03:22 StylusEater *sniffle
03:22 StylusEater tempire: would rock if you wrote a book
03:23 sri tempire: think about it, as a core dev you're in a position to push radical design changes to sell more books every year! :)
03:27 StylusEater pfft
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04:05 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/IRKBkQ
04:05 good_news_everyone mojo/master a80f2a0 Sebastian Riedel: mention that all placeholders can be surrounded by parentheses
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05:36 tempire hmm
05:36 tempire I did not consider new editions
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08:25 Vandal if my app have many dns names, what is the best way to get requested name? is it $self->req->url->host; or something else?
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13:11 batman off topic: is there a module which converts "1 day in the future" into time + 86400 or "1 day" into 86400 ?
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13:31 marty \o
13:34 marty batman:   $app->helper( one_day_in_the_future => sub { my $self = shift; return time + 86400; }  );
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13:38 batman marty: hehe. i wanted a more generic one :)
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14:07 nic batman: DateTime has a module which attempts to interpret most nat lang time expressions
14:07 batman ok. do you know the name of that module?
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14:08 batman DateTime::Format::Natural::Lang::EN :)
14:09 batman thanks
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14:42 * sri yawns
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15:01 rmah is under just a synonym for bridge?
15:01 rmah in the context of routing
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15:14 marcus wirc has been changing quite a bit lately - https://www.evernote.com/shard/s22/sh/a439f831-46f​9-40f5-aa86-78ea7ae4a5e2/66e8b23f06c88ac48d6b4c0c5​64fb2af/deep/0/Screenshot%2009.04.13%2017:14.jpg
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15:16 marcus Oh, and we have user lists and image previews now :) https://www.evernote.com/shard/s22/sh/8b529fac-493​c-4659-81fd-2d1bc8ea4d4a/bc47b2d103664a1568ba35234​974fc94/deep/0/Screenshot%2009.04.13%2017:16.jpg
15:24 Vandal marcus, what is it?
15:24 marcus vandal: Mojo based irc client running in the  ioloop
15:24 Vandal link?
15:24 marcus wirc.pl
15:24 marcus it's closed alpha for now.
15:26 marcus but I've been using it as my primary irc client for the last couple of months.
15:27 Vandal and how is it for you?
15:29 marcus I think it's starting to kick ass :)
15:29 suy marcus: so, is a licensed software? or you offer the paid service too? I've been wishing a mojo web frontend to quassel
15:30 marcus suy: The current plan is to sell it as shareware. I'll probably not add any DRM, but provide license users with access to git repo for updates.
15:31 marcus It should be trivial to deploy to dotcloud or heroku if you don't want to host it yourself.
15:32 suy Nice. I thought those services were a bit limited on what ports/protocols allow.
15:33 marcus well, heroku doesn't support websockets atm, but 1) we will provide a fallback 2) they have promised it's coming. We're using redis as the backend, which is easily available on those platforms.
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15:43 Akron janus++
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15:54 Akron Is there a roadmap for the planned and still-in-discussion changes in 4.0?
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16:17 sri Akron: nope, i think we might have made all 4.0 changes already without breakage
16:17 sri marcus: neat!
16:17 sri marcus: but judging by your recent irc activity it's not working so well ;p
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16:27 sri what the hell, 1 bitcoin is now $219
16:27 sri :O
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16:43 sri Akron: of course this is still planned... but for 5.0 or 6.0 now https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/423
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17:22 Akron No breakage with 3.x? That's lame! :-P
17:27 * Akron would love to have better support for shortcuts in M::Lite but has no idea of a good design for that.
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17:41 sri Akron: i thought that's a solved problem
17:42 sri Akron: we know we can't do it with plugins, so this is the way https://gist.github.com/kraih/4351674
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17:43 sri the only question really is if that way should be documented (we've had a discussion about that)
17:45 sri it was actually in core for a short time https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/f5​e97f55fbd0788af812a2c39e84ada04c2a39e0
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18:15 jberger marcus, are you giving out invites?
18:16 jberger 8-D
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18:40 * sri shakes Akron
18:45 sri actually... i need to update the get_post example
18:45 sri https://gist.github.com/kraih/4351674 # ok, now get_post is a sensible example, render is still a pretty bad idea though
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19:37 Akron sri: Sorry - I was away. I didn't mean custom keywords, I mean't shortcuts, that change the Liteyness (?) of an app, like (any '/my/path/to')->shortcut(...).
19:39 Akron meant, not mean't.
19:41 sri Akron: what's the point of that?
19:42 sri if you're fine with ugly routes you can just go app->routes->shortcut(...)
19:44 Akron That's the point - I think it is ugly, especially if I want to use it like (any '/')->shortcut(...)->to(cb => sub{ ...})
19:44 sri also, any('/my/path/to')->shortcut(...) already works
19:45 Akron I have to mix full app and lite notation.
19:45 Akron Oh - I didn't know that works ...
19:46 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Lite#any
19:48 Akron Oh - any('/ps-callback')->pubsub looks so much better than (any '/ps-callback')->pubsub ...
19:48 Akron What did you mean with pointing me to "any"?
19:49 sri it returns the route
19:52 Akron Yes. I'm sorry that I didn't think about any()->shortcut (Will change this in all docs tonight ;)). But It still mixes lite and full notation.
19:52 sri shortcuts don't fit into lite apps
19:53 sri i don't get what you're expecting
19:54 Akron As I said, I have no idea for a visually appealing concept.
19:54 sri it's not just about visually appealing, so far there is no concept ;p
19:56 sri are you hoping for magical keywords generated from shortcuts?
19:57 sri or a shortcut keyword? "shortcut foo => ...;"
19:58 Akron Just a moment ...
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20:04 Akron (phone)
20:06 Akron Yes - something magically like "any '/' => shortcutname [...] ...
20:07 sri i don't see how that could work
20:08 sri also, a shortcut is usually an alternative to ->any... not something you mix with it
20:09 Akron Well - I use it most of the time for endpoint definitions.
20:10 sri my point is that it's too versatile to be just another argument for a lite keyword
20:11 Akron But you are right - It's the piping that makes this difficult. any '/a' => shortcut [] => shortcut [] ... It just can't work.
20:12 Akron I agree with the keyword idea.
20:13 Akron I just don't like the mixing of notations. But I don't think it is solvable.
20:13 sri the way you're using shortcuts is not
20:14 sri under '/foo'; shortcut lalala => sub {...}; would be
20:14 Akron Too limited in my opinion. Shortcuts are so powerful.
20:15 sri yea, they just don't fit into lite apps
20:15 sri the answer is to make your own keywords
20:16 Akron Okay. Although I now will adopt any('')->... instead of (any '')->... - that was a great advice!
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21:15 sri hmmm
21:16 * sri wonders how to make the relationship between under/group in lite apps to bridges easier to grok
21:16 sri "While most L<Mojolicious::Lite> concepts are very easy to apply to full L<Mojolicious> applications, bridges generated with C<under> and C<group> are a little different, their equivalent is simply a strucutre of nested routes and bridges. For more information about bridges see also L<Mojolicious::Guides::Routing/"Bridges">."
21:16 sri would something like that in the "Under" section of the tutorial help?
21:16 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Lite#Under # like at the bottom
21:18 sri maybe without the link to the Bridges section of the routing guide?
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21:21 jberger_ sri: re under/group
21:21 jberger_ I think that a translation recipe in Growing would be better, IMO
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21:21 sri are you all just lurking on the channel log and joining when you have something to say? :)
21:21 jberger_ I read the log about 3 times a day
21:21 sri jberger_: i don't see that fitting in very well
21:22 jberger_ when I need a pause from the typing
21:22 sri i've thought about adding it to the growing guide as well, but it makes the example worse
21:23 jberger_ perhaps it doesn't need to be part of the example, just an aside on "how to translate an under"
21:24 jberger_ "Although most ::Lite concept translate directly to full apps, either as app or router methods, the way `under` is used is slightly different in a full app"
21:24 sri do you have a good example?
21:24 jberger_ I could cook one up
21:25 sri and where would an aside like that fit in?
21:25 * jberger_ looks
21:27 sri it's such a common problem, would be nice to have it explained somehwere
21:27 jberger_ between "simplified application class" and "simplified application script" I would think
21:27 jberger_ thats where the "methodification" of things like any happen
21:28 sri sounds sensible so far
21:28 sri also needs a header that's not too negative
21:29 sri nothing like "Possible translation problems" and the like
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21:36 jberger_ https://gist.github.com/jberger/5349617
21:36 jberger_ just a super quick idea
21:42 jberger_ and then you can say how "group" isn't necessary, because you just use these new routers to define the scope of the "under"
21:45 sri jberger_: group is the important part
21:45 sri under on its own is just a normal bridge, there is no translation step
21:47 jberger_ but they haven't seen bridges yet
21:47 jberger_ in fact, this is a good chance to introduce them
21:47 sri they have seen under, which has a method equivalent
21:48 sri group is the one without equivalent
21:48 jberger_ the problem for under is the way that in lite, all routes which follow an under are subject to it
21:48 jberger_ but in full apps, that doesn't translate
21:49 jberger_ the concept (as you know) is that the underlying router has changed
21:49 jberger_ but they don't see that, and since they barely know what a router is at this point (let alone a bridge), this is handy
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21:49 jberger_ from there its not hard to explain group
21:51 * sri starts to like the idea less
21:52 sri it's more a distraction than an aside, an aside would be like the "State keeping" section that goes into greater detail
21:53 jberger_ you could translate the '/protected' route in your Growing example to use an under
21:54 sri and make growing look harder?
21:54 sri "lets add a few more steps in between, just because"
21:54 sri the point of the guide is to make it look as simple as possible
21:55 sri i'd rather remove steps
21:55 jberger_ under is the only bridging concept in ::Lite, so any ::Lite app that does anything like authentication uses one
21:55 jberger_ then there's nothing about it in growing
21:55 * jberger_ remembers that he has fought for this one before and lost
21:56 sri that's not true, the example app doesn't use under
21:56 sri you can very well do authentication without
21:56 jberger_ sure, but then its per-route and lots of repeated code
21:57 jberger_ nm
21:58 jberger_ I don't have time to fight for it today
21:58 jberger_ in a few weeks
21:58 sri if an under would make the growing guide better then it should be easy to demonstrate
21:59 jberger_ sri: I don't think that that logic is sound
21:59 jberger_ I think that Growing needs to demonstrate the hard concepts of growing
21:59 jberger_ under is the only concept that doesn't just say "move these files and add an arrow"
22:00 jberger_ of course its going to make it better, but it might not be easy to demonstrate
22:01 sri there isn't really a point arguing if there's no patch
22:02 jberger_ if you are worried that it will make the rest of the Growing guide look better, then it can go farther down
22:02 jberger_ sri: agreed and I have no time to make one
22:02 jberger_ soon
22:02 * jberger_ meant "... look harder, then ..."
22:02 sri atm i'm just talking about the proposal at hand, and there are quite a few flaws that make it not work imo
22:03 sri starts with simple things like "my %users = ( Bender => 'ByteMe' );"
22:03 sri why would we ever recommend users do that?
22:04 jberger_ probably wouldn't, like I said it was a quick example
22:04 jberger_ and I do say "rudimentary"
22:04 jberger_ but I agree
22:04 sri well, i took it as an actual proposal
22:04 jberger_ bad example in the long run
22:05 sri not just in the long run, it's extremely confusing if you put it in context
22:05 sri we had the user make a model class before
22:05 jberger_ looking at it now, if I was going to propose an easy fix I would change your example in Growing so that it uses an under for the '/protected' route
22:07 jberger_ it wouldn't end up even changing that much
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22:11 * sri likes that a lot more
22:11 sri btw. the growing guide predates under
22:11 sri lets see how it would look with an under
22:11 jberger_ if you like you could even use group so that the logout route could stay where it is but isn't affected by the under
22:12 jberger_ not a very useful group, but it would demonstrate
22:12 * jberger_ is working on it too
22:12 * sri is almost done :o
22:13 * jberger_ had to assemble the app structure so he could test it
22:13 * jberger_ lets sri keep going
22:14 sri maybe yours is better
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22:21 jberger_ ok, I'm not sure what would be clearest in the controller
22:21 jberger_ with the under in the router, the 'protected' method is essentially empty
22:22 sri http://pastie.org/7395150 # my diff
22:22 jberger_ but now the authentication logic isn't in the class anymore
22:22 sri yea, wasn't sure about that either
22:23 jberger_ my $protected = $r->under->to('login#protected');
22:23 jberger_ nice
22:23 jberger_ I didn't know I could do that
22:23 sri :)
22:23 jberger_ makes sense
22:23 sri it's the same for all those methods
22:23 sri default to '/'
22:23 jberger_ see! what a good growing guide this would be :-)
22:24 sri an empty sub protected {} would be a possibility... not sure
22:24 sri umm no
22:24 sri ok, that's a bit odd now ;p
22:24 jberger_ eh, having a little duplicated checking isn't terrible
22:25 sri /protected is not sub protected... name change time
22:26 jberger_ in galileo I name my unders with what they do
22:26 jberger_ my $if_author = $r->under->to(...)
22:27 jberger_ then its clear what $if_author->any('/edit')->to(...) does
22:27 sri maybe something obvious like sub logged_in {}
22:27 jberger_ yeah
22:29 jberger_ my only difference from your is http://pastie.org/7395782
22:29 jberger_ and I have the logout method below that
22:29 sri hmm
22:30 sri bit arbitrary, but it makes the concept obvious
22:30 sri my only worry would be people cargo culting that
22:31 jberger_ thats not as big of a fear here I wouldn't think, because you are only setting up the example in order to change it into a full app
22:31 jberger_ and yes it is arbitrary
22:31 jberger_ :-)
22:32 jberger_ in fact, putting a group around it isn't the worst cargo culting ever
22:32 jberger_ it does what its supposed to
22:32 jberger_ I can imagine accidentally putting another route after an under, say if I haven't looked at it in a while
22:32 sri oh, i could make the group matter if i change order of actions again
22:32 sri \o/
22:33 jberger_ "and I have the logout method below that"
22:33 sri didn't catch that :)
22:33 jberger_ :-)
22:33 jberger_ np
22:33 jberger_ \☃/
22:36 jberger_ is http://☃.net/ owned by jwz?
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22:40 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Tm9WJg
22:40 good_news_everyone mojo/master e878358 Sebastian Riedel: added under and group examples to growing guide
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22:40 sri ok, that's nice :)
22:40 sri jberger++
22:42 jberger_ \o/
22:42 jberger_ sri: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/e8783​58bd04a67b0c5adfdd61d83670440b73132#L1R627
22:42 jberger_ does this need to point to the proper controller in order to find the template
22:42 jberger_ ?
22:43 * jberger_ is always a little hazy about the auto-render bits
22:43 * jberger_ could just run the tests :-)
22:44 sri you're right
22:44 sri i ignored the next step :S
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22:48 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/u-S4Uw
22:48 good_news_everyone mojo/master 67523ed Sebastian Riedel: fixed a few small documentation errors (closes #475)
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22:50 jberger_ 🎆
22:51 sri hmmm
22:52 sri jberger_: maybe using ->bridge in the last one would make it even more obvious
22:53 sri on the other hand we don't use ->route either
22:54 jberger_ that one is up to you
22:54 jberger_ I think perhaps it might make a good point about under if you used bridge the last time
22:56 sri oh another one
22:56 sri haha
22:57 sri return $self->session('user') ? 1 : !$self->redirect_to('index');
22:57 sri is that obvious enough?
22:57 * sri kind of dislikes the current two lines
22:58 jberger_ would it be enough to say:
22:59 jberger_ hmmm nm
23:00 jberger_ return $self->session('user') || !$self->redirect_to('index');
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23:00 jberger_ eh, two lines is good in intermediate documentation
23:01 sri oh, i like that one
23:01 jberger_ :-)
23:01 jberger_ I do too
23:01 jberger_ remember, there may be newbie perlers and we might not want them to see too much line noise
23:01 jberger_ I hope mojo can bring in non-perlers
23:01 jberger_ like rails did for ruby
23:02 jberger_ no sense in feeding the trolls :-)
23:02 * jberger_ thinks the success of Mojolicious is very important for the success of Perl
23:02 sri we still need a total beginners guide to mojolicious
23:02 sri in the style of the old CGI.pm tutorials
23:03 jberger_ rather than one person writing a big book
23:03 jberger_ why not a collaboratively edited one, like the PDL "book"
23:03 jberger_ probably more a website than a proper book at first
23:03 sri book from a big publisher makes people feel good
23:04 sri the editing can do wonders too
23:04 jberger_ maybe if I don't find a job right away I might try crowd-funding a mojo book
23:05 * jberger_ really hopes someone needs a scientist/programmer
23:06 * sri saw somewhere that there are 5000 PhDs working as janitors in the US ;p
23:08 jberger_ there really was one working at Motorola when my Dad was there, but he was doing a little more than sweeping the floor when no-one was looking :o
23:09 sri would be interesting to know of crows funding perl stuff actually works though
23:10 sri s/s/d/
23:10 sri s/o/i/
23:10 sri :S
23:11 jberger_ you never know
23:11 * sri always gets the impression perl people are not active enough in social media
23:11 sri and i don't mean producing, not that many are consuming either
23:12 jberger_ :-/
23:12 sri the "base" of the community is hard to reach
23:12 jberger_ catalyst mailing list :-p
23:13 sri we do have the numbers, but mobilising people is our weakness i believe
23:13 jberger_ right
23:13 jberger_ many Perlers are just getting the job done, not worrying about the outside world
23:13 * sri nods
23:14 jberger_ still, those are the people who might want a book
23:14 jberger_ people who use social media probably just use web tutorials or SO
23:14 sri yea, those are the people easier reached with a big publisher
23:14 jberger_ its the non-social-media-programmer who still has books on the shelf
23:14 jberger_ right
23:15 * jberger_ has found a vicious cycle
23:15 * sri has a shitload of books on the shelf
23:15 jberger_ WEAKEN
23:15 * jberger_ does too, but most of them have more greek symbols than programming tips
23:15 sri it's nore of a wall than a shelf now :o
23:15 sri *more
23:16 jberger_ I've taken to buying old physics books from pre-quantum mechanics era, say pre 1905
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23:16 jberger_ I just love that they have no idea that quantum and relativity are about to happen
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23:17 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FPkA3A
23:17 good_news_everyone mojo/master ec483e4 Sebastian Riedel: a few more documentation tweaks
23:17 good_news_everyone left #mojo
23:17 * jberger_ thinks thats really cool
23:17 sri hipster physicist
23:18 buu That may be the strangest thing I've read on irc today
23:18 buu I just wanted you to know that =]
23:18 jberger_ whatever, I was into Planck-ing before Planck-ing was cool :-P
23:20 sri :)
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23:28 marty all hail the luminiferous aether
23:29 marty sorry, had to toss that in there.  :)  Ok, back to javascript.  :(
23:31 jberger_ sorry marty, having actually done the michelson-morley experiment, well, I hate to be the one to tell you but, ... there is no luminiferous aether
23:31 sri :(
23:31 jberger_ you were going to have to find out at some point, I thought maybe you should hear it from a friend :0
23:39 * sri really likes the new growing guide o/
23:40 sri now we need guinea pigs though
23:47 * jberger_ hands sri a beer
23:47 jberger_ one of those purity law ones :-)
23:48 sri *slurp*

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