Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-04-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:17 jberger sri: seems good to me
00:24 sri \o/
00:24 * sri chains jberger to the channel
00:24 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/co​mpare/master...portable_commands # needs eyeballs too! :)
00:24 jberger haha
00:25 sri (much less serious proposal though, just one possible way of dealing with l10n)
00:25 jberger ok, I really haven't needed much l10n yet, but I'll take a look
00:26 sri "no clue" is an acceptable answer too, it's a messy subject
00:30 jberger it might come to that, but if you don't mind, talk me through it a bit
00:30 jberger I'm starting to come to grips with unicode
00:30 jberger but now CODESET seems to be inferring a default encoding
00:31 jberger which might be utf8
00:31 sri langinfo CODESET detects the current terminal encoding
00:31 sri so we know which encoding @ARGV and STDIN data will have and STDOUT data should have
00:32 jberger that sounds like a worthy goal
00:32 sri currently we just assume utf8 for everything
00:32 sri which is mostly fine, everybody who cares about more than ascii prolly uses it
00:33 jberger I guess its probably better to use what is needed, however the world is going to utf8 too
00:33 jberger right
00:33 sri now, i'm interested in the "correct" way to handle it
00:33 jberger more correct is always good though
00:33 sri i've looked a bit through cpan, and it's all a mess :)
00:34 sri my patch does 3 things basically
00:34 sri detect terminal encoding as app->commands->encoding
00:34 sri decode @ARGV in Mojolicious::Commands
00:35 sri and provide app->commands->auto_encode(...) for encoding characters to whatever the terminal needs
00:36 jberger https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/6e​cadc217892ab83fc36e8fb1d0a2bd2ef0a2b3​6/lib/Mojolicious/Command/get.pm#L134
00:36 sri well, actually step 2 is decode arguments passed to app->commands->run(...)...
00:36 sri but that's usually @ARGV
00:36 sri oops :)
00:37 jberger probably means untested too right?
00:37 jberger does that compiled?
00:37 sri entirely
00:37 jberger s/d//
00:37 sri it's just an experiment
00:37 jberger it makes sense though
00:38 sri well, i ran command line tests against it... so i prolly screwed it up right before commit
00:38 jberger no prob
00:38 jberger just happened to see it
00:38 sri haha, right, last commit "small tweaks" https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/6e​cadc217892ab83fc36e8fb1d0a2bd2ef0a2b36
00:39 jberger actually caught my eye as a (@) prototype
00:39 jberger which of course it couldn't be
00:39 jberger its always those last tweaks right?!?
00:39 jberger I think that the general idea is sane though
00:40 sri another thing is that currently it's all commands for themselves... you're responsible for all encoding/decoding
00:40 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/mas​ter/lib/Mojolicious/Command/get.pm#L49
00:40 sri the get command decodes the arguments atm actually
00:40 sri that's what got me started
00:41 jberger and this would handle that for you, I'm always for things like that
00:41 jberger :-)
00:41 sri i think the most arguable part is auto_encode()
00:42 sri Mojo::Util::auto_encode/auto_decode would also be an option
00:43 jberger but it has to keep state or else look up the CODESET every time right?
00:44 jberger I suppose that could just be in a variable somewhere, whether lexical or package in Mojo::Util
00:44 sri yea, but that's usually just detected once during startup
00:45 sri another oprtion would be switching on encoding/decoding on STDIN/STDOUT/STDERR
00:45 jberger it seems consistent to have that in Mojo::Util
00:46 jberger probably should be a package variable, even though that kind of interface isn't as common anymore
00:47 jberger for commands switching the encoding makes sense
00:47 sri i hate those as part of a public api
00:47 jberger I do too, but sometimes, for functional interfaces, its what you mean
00:47 sri why would you need to change it?
00:48 jberger who knows, but if thats going to be detected, seems sane to allow it to be overridden
00:48 jberger guess it could be an env var
00:48 jberger and a lexical variable in Mojo::Util
00:49 sri env var maybe later... if necessary
00:49 jberger anyway, I think it feels more consistent as a function in Mojo::Util personally, but I don't have a problem with it as a command method as that is where it would most likely be useful
00:50 sri i believe detection might be based on env vars anyway
00:50 jberger oh, that would make sense
00:50 jberger so you would use the env vars I18N (presumably) provides
00:50 sri LC_CTYPE=UTF-8
00:50 jberger ok, so thats fine then
00:51 jberger as long as there is some mechanism to influence it
00:51 jberger (might want to document that)
00:51 jberger ok, but if I may be unchained, I need to go cook
00:51 sri we can just defer to I18N::Langinfo ;p
00:52 jberger I promise to return soon, having thought about it a bit
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00:52 sri "Detection based on L<I18N::Langinfo>."
00:52 jberger sure, document that I18N::Langinfo is used, then their doc will be sufficient
00:52 jberger exactly
00:53 sri bon appetit!
00:53 jberger mmmmmmmmmm
00:54 sri apropos cooking... hannibal is one of the best new tv series this year :)
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01:20 sri hmmmm
01:20 sri http://api.metacpan.org/source/RJBS/per​l-5.16.3/ext/I18N-Langinfo/t/Langinfo.t
01:20 sri that's not very encouraging :(
01:24 sri https://metacpan.org/source/FLORA/per​l-5.17.4/cpan/Encode/encoding.pm#L42
01:24 sri well, fuck
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01:26 tempire sounds reasonable
01:27 * sri assumes tempire means the Mojo::URL change
01:27 tempire yes
01:27 sri \o/
01:29 sri http://grep.cpan.me/?q=I18N%3A%3ALanginfo # it's not used much out in the wild
01:30 * sri tends towards "UTF-8 or go home" for now
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01:33 sri perhaps app->commands->encoding + map { decode ... } @ARGV + binmode STDIN ':encoding(...)' + binmode STDOUT ':encoding(...)'
01:34 sri (whenever a command runs)
01:35 sri oh wait... that messes up CGI and similar commands :(
01:53 jberger sri: http://pastie.org/7694948
01:54 sri jberger: but how do you unit test auto_encode/auto_decode?
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01:54 jberger now that's a harder question
01:56 jberger well I did say that "the world is going to utf8"
01:56 jberger :-)
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01:57 sri ;p
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02:42 jberger is $ua->get( $url, form => {...} ) supposed to make a url-based query?
02:44 buu URL based? As opposed to what/
02:45 preaction_ it's a get request. get requests can't have bodies
02:47 buu I was wondering if it translated it into query params.
02:48 jberger eh-hem, I was wondering
02:49 jberger the form content generator seems to try to put it into the body
02:49 jberger even for get requests
02:49 buu So put it in the url
02:50 jberger https://metacpan.org/source/SRI/Mojolicious​-3.95/lib/Mojo/UserAgent/Transactor.pm#L192
02:50 jberger buu, yes I can do that, but SHOULD it
02:52 buu I have no idea, that's how I'm doing it!
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03:12 sri preaction_: could you elaborate on that, why can't GET requests have a body?
03:14 preaction_ spec doesn't say it can't, but it does seem to try to imply they shouldn't (weakly)
03:15 sri then what you said is wrong
03:15 preaction_ "Authors of services which use the HTTP protocol SHOULD NOT use GET based forms for the submission of sensitive data, because this will cause this data to be encoded in the Request-URI." <- not a ringing endorsement
03:15 sri that section is irrelevant
03:15 sri an entity-body can be anything
03:16 preaction_ 9.3 GET The GET method means retrieve whatever information (in the form of an entity) is identified by the Request-URI. <- this is a bit better
03:16 preaction_ so you can send a body, but it can't be relevant
03:16 sri also irrelevant
03:16 sri there is nothing in the spec that applies
03:16 preaction_ that is the first line in the spec section describing what a GET request is
03:16 buu "The presence of a message-body in a request is signaled by the inclusion of a Content-Length or Transfer-Encoding header field in the request's message-headers. A message-body MUST NOT be included in a request if the specification of the request method (section 5.1.1) does not allow sending an entity-body in requests. A server SHOULD read and forward a message-body on any request; if the request method does not include defined semantics for an entity-body, then the
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03:17 buu Except I can't figure out when the entity body is allowed, heh
03:17 preaction_ i think that's what i just quoted, 9.3. the spec links there from section 5.1.1
03:17 sri buu: that reference to METHODS is about HEAD
03:18 sri which does actually forbid an entity-body for responses to HEAD requests
03:18 buu Where?
03:18 buu I'm reading the 9.4 HEAD section
03:18 preaction_ for responses, but that quote was about requests
03:20 buu sri: Ignoring the rfc and semantics for a second, do you think it's appropriate to react to the body of a GET request?
03:20 sri why does my opinion matter?
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03:21 sri my opinion is just as irrelevant as the quoted sections so far ;p
03:21 preaction_ those are the sections that relate to GET requests, so why are they irrelevant?
03:22 sri fact is, there is no MUST NOT that applies here
03:24 preaction_ i'll grant the spec is not explicitly denying the ability to send a body. but it also doesn't allow the entity body any relevance to the request
03:28 buu http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/g​roup/rest-discuss/message/9962
03:29 sri "A payload within a GET request message has no defined semantics; sending a payload body on a GET request might cause some existing implementations to reject the request."
03:29 sri http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie​tf-httpbis-p2-semantics/?include_text=1
03:30 sri it is still an open question on the 2616 todo list
03:30 buu Heh, I was just about to quote that
03:35 jberger woah, looky there! activity!
03:35 * jberger reads
03:36 jberger ok, all I was asking is, does it make more sense for the form content generator, when used with a get request, to build url query parameters rather than a message body
03:36 buu If I get a vote I say yes
03:36 jberger if not, might I propose another content generator which does
03:37 jberger I think 'form' doing so would be more dwim
03:38 preaction_ it would seem more dwim, unless there's another way to put them in the URI (does Mojolicious depend on lwp?)
03:38 jberger no
03:38 jberger but there is Mojo::URL which can do it
03:38 jberger and that is how I would implement the content generator
03:39 jberger (the 'no' was in reference to depending on lwp)
03:39 * jberger slaps preaction_ with a fish
03:40 * sri tends to -1, because it's a breaking change and makes the implementation harder to grok (already covers countless variations of urlencoded and multipart), also many new special cases where multipart has to be enforced instead of query
03:41 jberger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s
03:41 sri although, i'm more opposed to an entirely new generator
03:41 preaction_ i wonder where that fish could be
03:41 jberger whever that fish did go
03:41 preaction_ oh fishy fishy fishy fish
03:42 * jberger is laughing too hard to think about content generators
03:42 sri i suppose if the implementation can be done in 1-2 lines and has all necessary tests it has a chance
03:43 preaction_ it seems like the change could only break something that was already broken, if that's any consolation
03:43 preaction_ oh, but it would .. "fix" things
03:43 sri umm, we just established that's not true
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03:45 preaction_ i thought we established that bodies are allowed on GET requests, but have undefined semantics (which i hesitate to try to interpret)
03:45 preaction_ so i'd think a change like this would put URL parameters in a place where they do have a defined behavior, which could then break someone's code
03:45 sri so, how could we justify breaking the current behavior?
03:46 sri it is clearly not a bug by any definition
03:48 sri well, i suppose this is something that should be settled by a core dev vote, i will not veto
03:48 jberger its not a bug, but I think it must be the expected behavior
03:48 preaction_ the only justification i can think of is that there's no spec-defined reason for get to have a body
03:49 jberger (for some definition of "must" of course :-))
03:49 sri (unless the code stinks of course ;p)
04:01 jberger so far, no additional lines, and breaks no tests
04:08 jberger sri, preaction_, buu: http://pastie.org/7695595
04:09 sri HEAD support is missing, methods are case insensitive, and the URL could already have a query
04:09 jberger hmmmm, do I need a uc on the method
04:10 jberger HEAD support?
04:10 jberger I thought this was explicity for GET?
04:10 sri HEAD and GET need to behave the same
04:10 jberger oh
04:10 jberger ok
04:10 * jberger has never used HEAD
04:11 sri i stringly suggest you consult 2616 to make sure there aren't more special rules
04:11 sri s/i/o/
04:11 jberger I think the query behavior could be documented to be as such, otherwise, would it be merge or replace?
04:12 jberger I think it makes the most sense to just completely replace it
04:18 jberger sri: what is the mojo style for a two line ternary
04:18 jberger ?
04:20 sri i don't think there are any
04:20 sri perltidy makes them look bad usually
04:21 jberger that's what I'm seeing too
04:23 sri i'd look for other ways to make the code pretty again
04:23 * jberger curses the smartmatch for sucking
04:25 jberger if it were me, I would return early from the multipart section, then be able to drop a nest level for urlencoded
04:26 jberger but I don't see too many early returns in the codebase either
04:27 jberger no, thats not true, its in the sync/async handling regularly IIRC
04:32 jberger sri: append, merge? thoughts?
04:33 jberger hmmm, merge I think
04:33 sri if you can make the code even shorter that's a plus
04:33 * sri would merge
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04:37 dec I'm just playing with my first Mojolicious::Lite app;  a bunch of docs and the wiki seem to indicate that helpers are lazily built once only, but I've defined a helper and the subref is called every time it's accessed - am I missing something?
04:37 amirite if i want to immediately render and stop processing i.e. flush the request/response, what would i do
04:39 dec hmm, looking at what the default Helpers are used for, I think I'm using it for the wrong thing.  whereabouts would I stick a set-once/read-many attribute like a DBI connection handle?
04:39 jberger not gonna get shorter :-/
04:40 buu dec: Cache it outside the helper..
04:41 sri dec: see growing guide
04:41 sri helper+state rocks
04:41 sri jberger: at least you get a free line as far as i can see :)
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04:46 jberger best I can see adds 4 lines
04:47 dec buu, sri: thanks; whilst waiting for an answer here I actually changed it to use a state variable in the helper.
04:47 dec (and it works as I'd expected)
04:47 jberger http://pastie.org/7695786
04:48 jberger <3 state
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04:52 sri jberger: http://pastie.org/7695799 # two lines
04:53 jberger works for me
04:58 jberger hmmm, where does the doc go?
04:58 jberger just an example maybe?
05:00 jberger no, the examples don't show results, so it wouldn't make any difference
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05:03 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/dvtDNA
05:03 good_news_everyone mojo/master 1daaa72 Sebastian Riedel: fixed a few small redirect and proxy connect bugs in Mojo::UserAgent::Transactor
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05:04 jberger http://pastie.org/7695848
05:05 jberger If I send a pull request you are more than welcome to tinker with the doc wording (or anything else of course :-))
05:05 sri i won't say a word until the votes are in ;)
05:07 jberger you just had to make a conflicting change didn't you :-P
05:09 sri figured you hadn't committed anything yet ;p
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05:12 jberger actually, I'm not sure why that counted as conflicting
05:12 jberger I think my git-stash foo failed me that time
05:13 jberger nm, I see it
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05:14 good_news_everyone [mojo] jberger created form_get (+1 new commit): http://git.io/tPE2LQ
05:14 good_news_everyone mojo/form_get bc89f53 Joel Berger: Improved form content generator for GET and HEAD requests
05:14 good_news_everyone left #mojo
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05:15 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NUexug
05:15 good_news_everyone mojo/master ecb0904 Sebastian Riedel: fixed a few small method handling bugs in Mojo::Transaction::HTTP
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05:16 travis-ci [travis-ci] kraih/mojo#503 (form_get - bc89f53 : Joel Berger): The build passed.
05:16 travis-ci [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/bc89f539865d
05:16 travis-ci [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/kraih/mojo/builds/6526880
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05:17 sri jberger: cannot be merged
05:17 jberger yeah, I see that
05:17 jberger working on it
05:17 sri i suspect it's the Changes entry
05:17 sri you should leave those out of pull requests
05:18 sri one new change and you can't merge anymore
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05:18 good_news_everyone [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to form_get: http://git.io/f5tZ9A
05:18 good_news_everyone mojo/form_get 194b077 Joel Berger: Merge branch 'master' into form_get...
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05:19 jberger I've never actually included Changes in a pr before, I thought I was saving you some work
05:19 jberger oh well, live and learn
05:20 jberger if you think this will need to wait and vote from the others, I'm happy to resubmit without it
05:20 sri hmmm... your branch looks weird
05:20 sri yea, just resubmit
05:20 jberger closing
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05:21 good_news_everyone [mojo] jberger deleted form_get at 194b077: http://git.io/l8WQ3g
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05:24 good_news_everyone [mojo] jberger created form_get_2 (+1 new commit): http://git.io/nufA3A
05:24 good_news_everyone mojo/form_get_2 d4dc79a Joel Berger: Improved form content generator for GET and HEAD requests
05:24 good_news_everyone left #mojo
05:24 jberger looks better? https://github.com/kraih/mojo/compare/form_get_2
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05:26 travis-ci [travis-ci] kraih/mojo#505 (form_get - 194b077 : Joel Berger): The build has errored.
05:26 travis-ci [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/kraih/mojo/com​pare/bc89f539865d...194b0774ba00
05:26 travis-ci [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/kraih/mojo/builds/6526918
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05:26 sri jberger++
05:27 jberger now what is travis on about
05:28 jberger travis is fine, everybody go about your business
05:28 jberger :-)
05:29 jberger ok, well its time for me to hit the hay
05:30 * jberger pokes sri, marcus, tempire and crab (hehe)
05:30 jberger I'll be happy to read comments in the morning
05:30 jberger night all
05:30 jberger o/
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14:00 sri hmm, one more vote and jbergers patch is in :o
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14:08 jberger meanwhile, manually generating OAuth sucks
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15:21 Vandal I have an action without template, it does $self->redirect_to at the end, but there is a 3 points where if error I have to exit from action (return)
15:22 Vandal is there a way not to do $self->render 3 times but set it once and if every thing is ok not to render, just redirect?
15:24 Vandal yes, it is, I have to set $self->stash->{template}
15:25 Vandal thank you
15:25 Vandal you are wellcome
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16:32 sri oh, it's been a month since crab said anything :o
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17:04 lucs sri: Last I heard, a couple of weeks ago, he was "running around crazily with school/house stuff".
17:37 sri then it's up to tempire to save the day
17:47 sri NOOOOOOOOOOO
17:47 sri futurama has ben cancelled again :,(
17:51 Vandal futurama is to silly
17:52 Vandal its for children
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17:54 sri you've made enemies
17:55 Vandal :(
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18:45 buu sri: How many seasons are they up to?
18:46 sri 7 i believe
18:46 sri jberger: i voted +1, so your patch can be applied :)
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18:48 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/b2uQjQ
18:48 good_news_everyone mojo/master 7861cc0 Sebastian Riedel: Merge pull request #483 from kraih/form_get_2...
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18:50 sri with jberger, marcus and everybody else in the discussion yesterday agreeing on the behavior and no strong opposition, it's a pretty clear decision
19:07 sri jberger: found a few bugs though
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19:26 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/7lEg6Q
19:26 good_news_everyone mojo/master c27ad6c Sebastian Riedel: fixed a few small bugs in Mojo::UserAgent::Transactor and tweaked documentation
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19:49 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/7TAM2w
19:49 good_news_everyone mojo/master 8db967e Sebastian Riedel: fixed host normalization bug in Mojo::URL
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19:54 sri bugs bugs bugs
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20:26 sri suppose we could use a release soon
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21:33 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih tagged v3.96 at 2d92d5c: http://git.io/u8nf9g
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22:01 jberger sri++
22:02 * jberger sends out a search party for crab
22:02 jberger :-o
22:06 btyler grumble. just got vetoed on using mojolicious for a project because boss had bad experience with perl developers 10 years ago at a perlmongers meeting
22:08 jberger btyler, thats got to be the worst reason I've heard yet
22:08 avenj a black guy stepped on the heel of my shoe once
22:08 avenj so I joined the kkk
22:08 * avenj coughs
22:08 jberger well hey, its been 118 days since the last ruby drama! http://rubydramas.com/
22:09 jberger and we all know the mood in the python world lately :-/
22:09 jberger so yeah, a few bearded unix guys 10 years ago told you that your Perl skills sucked, get over it
22:09 btyler yeah, I know, I was bummed. he'd rather use python, even if it means reimplementing stuff you get for free in mojo
22:10 jberger python 2 or python 3
22:10 jberger ?
22:10 btyler didn't get into the distinction, I imagine 2
22:10 jberger bad idea
22:10 jberger (I was going to say that either way :-p)
22:10 btyler hah
22:11 sri well, he does sound like the type for python
22:11 sri http://sedition.com/img/p/p/h​/perl-and-python-hackers.png
22:11 jberger bet he has a nephew who told him that python was better than perl
22:11 btyler I think it boiled down to him really liking the 'one right way' notion in python
22:11 avenj a lot of people very much prefer to be told what to do ;-)
22:11 jberger mojo <--- no magic allowed
22:12 jberger :-)
22:12 jberger the thing I always say about the one-way/more-than-one-way thing is this
22:13 btyler (the funny part is that the main product at my work is a giant crufty PHP app, written without the use of any framework)
22:13 jberger when there's only one way, and the thing you need to do is hard, there might not be any (good) way
22:13 jberger when there are many ways, one of them might not suck
22:13 jberger for the rest of it, there are coding standards
22:14 jberger then again, I'm biased
22:15 jberger sri: I like that comic, good one
22:15 * jberger promotes sage (python) over mathematica fwiw
22:16 jberger oh well
22:18 good_news_everyone joined #mojo
22:18 good_news_everyone [mojo] jberger deleted form_get_2 at d4dc79a: http://git.io/oSpNVA
22:18 good_news_everyone left #mojo
22:19 jberger crab alive as of  April 21: https://github.com/amenonsen/Crypt-Twofish/co​mmit/ede2901085f45066384308b1f7942d84eccecb7c
22:19 jberger \o/
22:26 * sri puts a few crab traps into the channel
22:46 ka2u joined #mojo
23:50 asarch joined #mojo

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