Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-06-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 sri we need more hunks of plastic
00:04 sri haha, ruby folks generate multipart content from heredocs https://github.com/rack/rack/blob/mast​er/lib/rack/multipart/generator.rb#L72
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01:25 tristan i'm having a bit of trouble using Attribute::Handlers within a mojo application, not getting any errors but it seems that my handlers aren't being called.
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02:41 sri hmmmmmm
02:42 * sri has been trying another solution for the encoding problem
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02:52 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih created utf8_filehandles (+1 new commit): http://git.io/5A8TLQ
02:52 good_news_everyone mojo/utf8_filehandles 51f5dea Sebastian Riedel: let Mojo::Base change the encoding of STDIN, STDOUT and STDERR to UTF-8 the first time it is loaded
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02:53 sri jberger, tempire, marcus, crab: that's the softest version i can think of for setting STDIN, STDOUT and STDERR to UTF-8 and not hardcoding encode('UTF-8', ...) everywhere
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02:53 travis-ci [travis-ci] kraih/mojo#756 (utf8_filehandles - 51f5dea : Sebastian Riedel): The build passed.
02:53 travis-ci [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/51f5dea81141
02:53 travis-ci [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/kraih/mojo/builds/7722645
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02:59 jberger the idea being that you could maybe configure that more easily in the future
02:59 jberger ?
03:00 sri the idea is that we make UTF-8 terminals "just work" and the user can do what he wants from there
03:00 jberger oh I see
03:00 sri if he wants to use clever encoding detection modules he can do that
03:01 jberger yeah
03:01 jberger that makes sense I suppose
03:01 jberger just as devil's advocate, is Mojo::Base the right module to do it in?
03:01 sri only question is if changing the encoding is too invasive
03:01 sri jberger: what other options are there?
03:02 jberger Mojolicious
03:02 sri doesn't cover Mojo::Log
03:02 jberger no, but it does mean that its only for apps not for the individual tools
03:03 sri that breaks actual tests :(
03:03 jberger for example, if I wanted to use Mojo::Base rather than Moo in some project
03:03 jberger hmmmm, yeah, testing would be hard
03:03 sri no i mean we test that Mojo::Log on its own can log UTF-8 to STDERR
03:04 jberger but what you are saying with this patch is that Mojo::Log uses the default encoding, which we set to UTF-8
03:04 jberger seems that you would want to remove that kind of test
03:04 jberger its no longer Mojo::Log's job
03:06 sri meh, there's more stuff now that wouldn't work, such as DEBUG messages from Mojo::Template
03:07 sri Test::Mojo also doesn't load Mojolicious
03:07 sri neither would Mojo apps
03:07 jberger put it this way, I think people will be really surprised when a project that uses Mojo::UserAgent or Mojo::DOM outside of an app context are going to be really surprised when their IO encoding changes
03:08 sri so you're arguing for actual breakage to prevent potential breakage
03:09 jberger no, I think I'm starting to lean against the patch generally
03:12 sri so it's UTF-8 only forever
03:13 * sri is so tired of this and leans towards dictating the patch (just to see how it works out)
03:15 sri fyi, moving it to Mojolicious results in a million wide character warnings for tests
03:16 jberger can this wait just a minute, real world happening here
03:17 sri no ;p
03:17 sri of course
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03:19 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/r6DXyg
03:19 good_news_everyone mojo/master fc55b36 Sebastian Riedel: fixed a few typos
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03:29 sri http://grep.cpan.me/?q=use+open.*%5C%3Astd # 72 distribution do use open with :std
03:29 sri *+s
03:37 sri http://grep.cpan.me/?q=binmode​%5Cs*%5C%28%3F%5Cs*%5C*%3FSTD # 640 distributions use binmode(STD...
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03:42 sri fun fact, we are one of them https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob​/master/lib/Mojo/Server/CGI.pm#L14
03:45 jberger ok, back. sorry about that
03:45 * sri needed a minute to cool down anyway
03:46 jberger a thing that came to me while dealing with life was, could there be an env variable which controls the encoding at print time
03:46 jberger ie print encode $ENV{MOJO_ENCODING}, @_
03:47 jberger my real concern here is that I know of several people who use Mojo::UserAgent and I would hate to alienate them
03:47 sri env var is very ugly
03:48 jberger and I know you don't like package variables either
03:48 jberger this is a reasonable use-case for package variables IMO, but thats your choice
03:49 * sri disagrees :)
03:49 jberger thats fine
03:49 sri like singletons they are pretty much always wrong!
03:49 jberger but output encoding is already a singleton
03:50 jberger print encoding $Mojo::Base::Encoding, @_
03:50 sri we could of course also make UTF-8 terminals not "just work"
03:51 jberger ?
03:51 sri remove all the encode calls and not add anything
03:51 jberger just remove the encode but not add any open statements?
03:51 jberger yeah
03:51 sri have the user require boilerplate whenever he needs unicode
03:52 jberger IM(very)HO that's better than changing it out from under the uesr
03:52 jberger I don't like it :-/
03:53 jberger remember my argument that Mojolicious can be the gateway drug to CPAN
03:53 jberger well Mojo::UserAgent can be the gateway drug to Mojolicious
03:54 jberger I would hate to see that gain a stigma as "something that is too invasive to use outside Mojolicious"
03:54 jberger that's my real point
03:54 sri that didn't hurt rails
03:54 sri it's not our fault unicode in perl is so messed up
03:57 jberger true it didn't
03:57 jberger I'm not sure what you are getting at re rails
03:57 * jberger doesn't know any history of rails
03:58 sri rails extends ruby core classes very excessively
03:58 jberger thats more of a ruby pattern though right?
03:59 sri they got a lot of complaints about it... in the end many of those methods made it into core
03:59 sri they were extending core types
03:59 jberger well I would love if Perl could just turn the unicode handling on by default
04:00 jberger as I understand, lots of people have put lots of effort into getting Perl's uncode handling right
04:00 jberger and yet I'm sure very few people (even in the Perl world) use it
04:00 sri if nobody pushes p5p in that direction they will never ever do it
04:01 jberger and thus my hope for a Perl 7 (or something)
04:01 jberger strict + warnings + utf8 - some old warts
04:01 sri wishful thinking, we can only work with what we have now for the next few years
04:02 sri remember, we still support 5.10.1
04:02 jberger I know
04:02 jberger then you are going to make me learn perl 6 and probably JVM right :-P
04:02 sri i've only been hinting at requiring 5.12 recently and people lost their shit ;p
04:03 sri more like Perl6 and MoarVM
04:04 jberger I'm not going to disparage it, but I'll believe it when I see it
04:04 jberger until then, I can still wish for sane defaults in Perl
04:04 jberger 5 or whatever :-)
04:05 jberger I'm not sure I have much else to contribute here
04:05 sri anyway, i think my comments on the issue are something we can point anyone at who brings this topic up again https://github.com/kraih/mojo/i​ssues/497#issuecomment-18820104
04:05 jberger give a thought to a package variable to replace the hardcoded UTF-8, in essentially a style that's in master now
04:06 jberger yeah, that's a good link
04:07 jberger meantime, I have to go to bed
04:07 * sri waves at anyone from the future who ends up here searching the irc logs o/
04:07 jberger o/
04:07 sri YOU WANT THAT LINK ABOVE!
04:07 jberger oh I like these, call me from the future and tell me who wins the 2013 stanley cup!
04:08 jberger (thats how this works right?)
04:08 * sri shrugs
04:08 jberger ok well I'm off to bed
04:09 sri nn
04:09 sri hmmmmm
04:09 * jberger express-mails sri some warm milk
04:09 sri for Mojo::Log specifically there's a different solution
04:09 jberger ok, I can listen for a few more mins
04:09 sri the encode 'UTF-8' could be moved into the format sub
04:10 * jberger looks
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04:11 jberger ok
04:11 jberger then in that case, what is the non-utf8 fix?
04:11 jberger overloading format?
04:11 sri yea
04:11 jberger works for me
04:12 jberger could it not be an attribute on Mojo::Log?
04:12 jberger has 'encoding' => 'UTF-8';
04:12 sri hmm
04:13 jberger just a suggestion, either works for me
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04:14 jberger k, I can't keep my eyelids open any longer
04:14 jberger its been a long weekend
04:14 jberger o/
04:15 sri \o
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04:31 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nMxY1g
04:31 good_news_everyone mojo/master db4af0f Sebastian Riedel: made format method in Mojo::Log a little more versatile
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04:31 sri i like it because it's simple
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04:33 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih tagged v4.11 at efaabf0: http://git.io/vy5_ww
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04:48 sri hahahahaha, i just noticed something
04:50 sri jberger: when you wake up tomorrow take a look at this, we have changed STDERR to :utf in Mojo::Log for about 3 years now :D https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/ad31e23ba56b4​082aa9d2e291f11f3ec1e56c7ab/lib/Mojo/Log.pm#L17
04:50 sri it only changed a few days ago
04:51 sri this was the change, i can trace back the old code to 0.8 ;p https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/d8​08628b09ee6aade9d3af72d2fae4fd0beaffa1
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07:11 crab do we know of any reason why 5.12.3 might fail with a recent mojo? (3.97)
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10:34 judofyr hey #mojo
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10:38 * kwa nods
10:43 * kwa notices his ears are getting hairier
10:43 kwa fs
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11:41 depesz where should I put template so that mojo will find it when i'll % include 'it' ?
11:41 depesz i tried in template/layouts or template/controller and it doesn't find it.
11:41 depesz i can't also see in docs informationa bout the path
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11:50 Vandal in templates/
11:56 judofyr depesz: include('foo') will load templates/foo.html.ep
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12:15 depesz aah. thx.
12:22 jberger sri: hahaha, oh well, maybe no one cares if we hack their encoding
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12:52 Dandre Hello,
12:53 Dandre Where can I find an example for RESTful application using mojo?
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13:12 sri jberger: yea, i wonder if anyone really cares
13:14 sri it only happened when Mojo::Log got initialized though
13:14 sri which means not for Mojo::DOM and the like
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13:22 jberger oh, true
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13:43 judofyr sri: did you ever consider implementing the HTML5 parser algorithm for Mojo::DOM?
13:44 sri judofyr: yes, but it would be *huge* and not work very well for XML
13:45 judofyr sri: the Go version is ~2k: https://code.google.com/p/go/sour​ce/browse/html/parse.go?repo=net
13:45 judofyr or, *a* Go version
13:45 judofyr so I wonder how big it would be in Perl/Ruby
13:45 sri Mojo::DOM::HTML is 190 lines
13:45 judofyr but I guess still too big for Mojo
13:46 judofyr sri: is the current design inspired by the HTML5 parser (e.g. the special handling of certain elements)?
13:46 sri performance should also be pretty bad if you parse character wise
13:47 sri yes, and a few other implementations
13:48 sri like jresigs pure javascript html parser
13:52 judofyr I've been looking at implementing a HTML5 parser in Ruby, but after having looked at the spec a few times (and implemented the most basic stuff) I'm not that motivated…
13:52 sri i know that feel :)
13:53 judofyr fuckin' adoption agancy algorithm
13:54 judofyr and all of the "active formatting" thing
13:55 sri in the end i just went with the most simplistic parser for tag soup i could think of and made it pluggable... just in case
13:59 sri damn, hard to believe that was in 2010 :o
13:59 sri time flies
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14:40 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/_YBYYA
14:40 good_news_everyone mojo/master 5a3505b Sebastian Riedel: documentation tweaks
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14:41 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/QG-0cQ
14:41 good_news_everyone mojo/master 4f01afe Sebastian Riedel: fixed documentation typo
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15:18 sri yapc::na livestreams are pretty good this time
15:22 libsysguy shoot I should have waived
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15:28 jberger_ libsysguy, I'm watching now, go wave!
15:29 libsysguy whats live streaming?  I'm still in the main room
15:29 jberger_ the main room is open cam right now
15:29 jberger_ LBJ auditorium
15:30 libsysguy done and done
15:30 libsysguy :p
15:30 jberger_ libsysguy makes an appearance!!!
15:30 jberger_ happy yapc my friend!
15:30 libsysguy no autographs, please
15:31 libsysguy happy yapc jberger
15:41 libsysguy jberger, I was looking at Galileo and was wondering how/if you were using DBIx::Class with async websockets
15:41 jberger_ not in any kind of clever way
15:41 jberger_ it blocks while working
15:42 judofyr is there a async DBI package for Perl?
15:42 jberger_ there are some async modules for certain drivers, but I don't think there is a unified async
15:42 jberger_ at least not that I have seen
15:42 jberger_ and I don't believe that there is any way to make DBIc use async, but I would love to be wrong
15:50 libsysguy fair enough
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16:42 jzawodn in recent versions DBD::mysql has some basic async support (and I mean basic)
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17:15 crab basic as in 20 GOTO 10?
17:17 sri DBD::Pg seems pretty good for a generic async module
17:19 sri ideally it would give you an i/o handle to watch though
17:20 sri then you'd just hook into Mojo::IOLoop through the reactor... ->reactor->io($handle => sub { ...do Pg stuff... })
17:21 sri IO::AIO does that stuff really well
17:24 sri oh DBD::mysql seems better there
17:25 sri $dbh->mysql_fd
17:25 sri easy too hook into any event loop
17:25 sri s/o//
17:27 sri just wrap the fd in an IO::Handle, watch for readable/writable, and call the async methods on the dbh to check if stuff finished or if it was just a partial read/write
17:28 * sri is surprised nobody has released a plugin for that yet, seems quite convenient
17:30 jamesw Pg has pg_socket
17:31 sri excellent
17:32 jamesw use it all the time will waiting for NOTIFY
17:32 sri so both mysql and pg would be easy to integrate properly with mojolicious for async goodness
17:32 sri if anyone wants to work on it, i'd be happy to give pointers
17:33 tianon sri: what, you don't want to manage both Mango and a MySQL adapter? :)  you have so much time for Mango already!
17:34 sri ;p
17:34 jamesw also there's anyevent-{DBI-Mysql,DBD-Pg}
17:35 sri mysql/pg adapters are rather small projects in comparison though, i'd be surprised if they hit 100 lines :)
17:36 sri well, i don't like the design of the anyevent adapters (big surprise!)
17:36 tianon lol, so an optional part of core, right? :)  I jest, of course :P
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19:24 sri there's a talk about angular.js and friends tagged with mojolicious live in the auditorium in 30 mins
19:25 sri http://new.livestream.com/acc​ounts/3585172/events/2037842
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19:26 sri gonna have to watch the MoarVM talk in an hour too
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19:33 sri oooh, and the mojolicious and sub signature talks on wednesday
19:34 libsysguy yeah that is the one I am waiting for
19:34 libsysguy :p
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19:43 jberger I'm looking forward to the angular.js talk too
19:44 jberger preaction gave a talk at chicago.pm
19:44 jberger I'd love to get another peak
19:44 jberger peek
19:47 libsysguy that is the one I am waiting on now
19:48 libsysguy I haven't even looked at angular code so I am really curious
19:48 libsysguy sri got mentioned twice in the keynote
19:48 libsysguy and his rainbow barfing dinosaur :p
19:50 sri haha
19:50 libsysguy apparently you're some kind of evil genius sri :p
19:51 sri my cv says supervillain
19:51 libsysguy actually, i knew you worked on catalyst and mojo before I started harassing you guys on here but I hadn't even heard of Maypole
19:52 libsysguy it makes me think of all the stories my girlfriend tells me about Sweden :p
19:58 libsysguy is the next event about to livestream?
19:58 * libsysguy is wondering if I should be running in front of the camera like a fool :p
19:59 sri livestream.com is really nice, ith the dvr feature and all
19:59 sri *+w
20:00 jberger is the stream smooth for you? its rather choppy here
20:00 sri don't think it could be any smoother
20:00 jberger hmmm
20:00 jberger perhaps my connection is too slow
20:01 jberger then again, netflix in 1080p works fine
20:01 jberger :-/
20:01 libsysguy maybe we're not on an edge here in Austin
20:01 sri i only have a 50mbit connection
20:02 libsysguy oh is that all
20:02 libsysguy it's not even redundant
20:03 libsysguy I have another annoying comparison question: in catalyst, all the controllers get passed $self and $c
20:03 libsysguy in Mojo, sometimes I see $c when it is loaded from $app
20:03 * jberger changes computers
20:04 libsysguy my question being…what is the difference
20:04 sri in mojolicious i've merged $self and $c, something i wanted to do in catalyst for a long time
20:05 libsysguy so they are interchangeable
20:05 libsysguy cool
20:05 sri you new to oo perl?
20:05 libsysguy I understand the basic concepts
20:06 sri $self is just a naming convention for the invocant
20:06 libsysguy right
20:06 sri so $self can be the controller or the application, depending on context
20:07 libsysguy but the context in this case is a bit ambiguous
20:07 libsysguy oh hey they are talking about mojo :p
20:09 sri which context is that?
20:09 libsysguy the case of if we are in the App or in the controller
20:09 sri are you in an action?
20:10 libsysguy yes
20:10 sri every action has a controller, even if it's just the default controller ;)
20:10 libsysguy :p
20:10 sri i think that's mentioned right at the top of the lite tutorial
20:11 libsysguy gah…okay I have to do a lite app
20:11 libsysguy not like that
20:11 libsysguy I mean I need to go through the full tutorial
20:12 sri don't try to skip learning lite, it's a prereq for all docs
20:12 sri you'll like it once you grok it
20:12 libsysguy yeah I get that now…I was about to start over anyway and there is the inflate function
20:15 libsysguy headed out to watch the rest of this talk
20:16 sri oh crap
20:16 sri those talks are parallel :o
20:16 * sri quickly dvr's the MoarVM talk
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21:03 libsysguy well that talk wasn't what I thought it was going to be
21:04 jberger_ which one?
21:05 libsysguy it was supposed to be about AngularJS but it ended up being about backbone.js
21:05 libsysguy I think maybe the speakers switched places
21:12 jberger_ no, i think those were probably the same
21:12 jberger_ angular and backbone both solve the same problem in similar ways
21:17 libsysguy they are both written in javascript :p
21:20 tempire someone created a pastie clone in mojo, didn't they?
21:21 jberger_ wouldn't be hard
21:21 jberger_ but I don't know if someone has
21:21 * tempire needs a pastebin that can be hosted internally
21:21 sri just one?
21:22 tempire dernit
21:22 jberger_ race?
21:22 libsysguy you should clone gist tempire
21:23 libsysguy and open source it so I can use it too :p
21:23 tempire dernit
21:23 sri get github enterprise and have your very own real gist ;p
21:23 tempire only a billion dollars
21:23 libsysguy does not want to pay for github enterprise…and its in Ruby
21:24 * sri kinda wishes we had made Mojo::Log::format an attribute containing a coderef
21:24 sri ruby is a perl... don't be a hater
21:24 libsysguy I thought Ruby was a Gem
21:24 libsysguy hehe
21:25 libsysguy but yes, the 100 million dollar price tag is also a bit of a downer
21:26 sri http://instagram.com/p/Z616sag_1u/ # from matz, the creator of ruby
21:26 libsysguy heh
21:26 tempire oh snap
21:26 libsysguy I think i just got sri stomped
21:27 tempire he doesn't stomp so much as bends
21:27 tempire forcefully
21:28 sri BEND ALL THE THINGS!
21:28 libsysguy s/things/minds/
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21:53 jberger_ https://gist.github.com/jberger/5701774
21:53 jberger_ tempire: did I beat you to it?
21:54 tempire I never started. So yes.
21:54 jberger_ needed something to occupy myself during larry's talk
21:54 tempire oh, is yapc right now?
21:54 jberger_ yep
21:54 jberger_ larry is talking right now
21:55 jberger_ https://new.livestream.com/ac​counts/3585172/events/2037842
21:56 tempire now add syntax highlighting and editing and you'll win the race!
21:57 jberger_ has syntax highlighting
21:57 jberger_ editing might not be that hard to add
21:57 jberger_ VERSIONED editing however
21:57 tempire I see no syntax highlighting
21:57 jberger_ prettify
21:58 jberger_ oh, not while editing
21:58 jberger_ just when viewing
21:58 tempire oh, I see.
21:58 tempire subtle coloring
21:59 jberger_ whatever the defaults are
21:59 tempire excellent.
21:59 * tempire accepts this gift
22:01 * jberger_ offers it gladly
22:08 jberger_ just made a minor improvement btw
22:10 libsysguy so does anybody know the person giving the talk on Mojo at YAPC
22:10 jberger_ the one earlier?
22:10 libsysguy no the one wednesday
22:10 * jberger_ looks
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22:10 libsysguy http://www.yapcna.org/yn2013/user/3111
22:12 jberger_ no, I don't
22:12 jberger_ but that doesn't mean much
22:12 libsysguy true
22:13 libsysguy when I read is bio I thought it said he was the creator of 9gag
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22:23 libsysguy so mojo plugins, like Authentication, should just be installed from CPAN?
22:23 libsysguy and then the plugin initialization should happen in startup?
22:23 jberger_ yeppers
22:26 libsysguy okay cool
22:26 libsysguy now, I just have to wrangle with CPAN
22:27 jberger_ do you use cpanm
22:27 jberger_ ?
22:27 libsysguy yes I do
22:27 jberger_ cool
22:27 libsysguy Mojolicious::Plugin::Authentication won't install
22:27 libsysguy at first it couldn't be found
22:27 libsysguy but that may just be a dodge wifi connection here at the hotel
22:28 libsysguy anyway, the Swede tells me its time for dinner
22:28 libsysguy see you guys later
22:28 jberger_ o/
22:28 libsysguy \0
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23:38 tempire hmm
23:38 tempire https://github.com/kentaro/cinnamon

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