Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-08-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 Zmodem Okay I have narrowed it down. Am I able to use things like <%= $query %> inside of an js asset?
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05:56 marcus sri: Just really busy with work and life stuff :-/
05:57 marcus sri: I'm on IRC most of the time tho. Just not so active in here.
05:58 marcus sri: we're working hard to turn Nordaaker into a product company. Also, my youngest just started in daycare.
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07:59 batman marcus: cool. going to change it now :)
07:59 batman but i'm keeping the timeout error message...
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08:01 marcus batman: yeah. Btw, maybe we need to steal some of that connection management from mango above to mojo::redis write as well as mojo::irc?
08:01 batman going to have a quick peek at it now
08:02 batman going to meet the grumpify team in an hour to discuss our grumpy future...
08:02 marcus batman: The instant posting stuff in wirc is super useful on a high latency link like my parents satelite link. :)
08:03 batman good thing you implemented it then ;)
08:08 yko batman: did you mean grumpify.com team?
08:08 batman yko: yeah
08:09 yko batman: just noticed Independence Square in Kyiv, Ukraine grumpified on their site. it's grumpy
08:10 batman hehe. yeah, that was me :)
08:10 batman "their site" ?
08:10 yko I just know nothing about grumpify.com and your involment, sorry
08:11 batman but what is "their site"? domain..?
08:11 yko grumpify.com
08:11 batman right
08:11 batman that's "my site" :)
08:13 yko fine, fine, I'm not about to take credits for that. Don't get mad ;)
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08:37 batman :)
08:42 batman https://github.com/marcusramberg/mojo-redis/co​mmit/9b40ad0fd257dc453decf1113966791a5aa87b86
08:42 batman https://github.com/marcusramberg/mojo-redis/co​mmit/c117ab836e81689935725ccdd5966118bdade592
08:42 batman ^ comments?
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08:50 marcus batman++
09:34 batman seriously? i don't trust myself :)
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13:13 sri marcus: i don't think it applies for irc, just request/response protocols you can easily suspend
13:13 sri you wouldn't stop the event loop while an irc connection is still active
13:14 sri timeout is also not as important, since the protocol take care of keeping the connection alive with pings
13:15 sri crab-- # see, when you start answering questions in github issues you just get more questions
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13:57 batman sri: should i make a new release of mojo-redis ?
13:57 batman did you (can you?) look at the diff?
13:57 sri batman: looks ok
13:57 batman awesome!
13:58 * batman creates a new version
13:59 sri batman: you could also add fork support :)
14:00 sri now that you have generic disconnect handling
14:00 batman okey..? wanna point me to which mojo-ua / mango code i can copy/paste?
14:00 batman i have...? :)
14:00 * batman is out of control
14:00 sri https://github.com/kraih/mango/commit/7​eeac87446a066a6f22271142b1daf1cb111edfa
14:01 sri you start a redis connection in the manager process, and don't have to worry about workers getting forked, since those get new connections automatically
14:01 batman ok
14:01 sri i find that pretty useful for database connections
14:02 sri but i'm sure you know that problem from DBI
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14:02 batman yeah...sort of
14:02 batman but do i need to add that pid detection in my connect() or _write() sub?
14:03 * batman tries
14:03 sri https://github.com/kraih/mango/compare/eb​5bd06a67746a5d601962a427bc7abdead8451f...​da0f79e0c5a9b639c889bb53aeb70e5ae3b23db2
14:03 sri that's actually the full diff
14:03 sri i made it easier to test with a connection event
14:04 sri batman: whatever runs while a connection is still active, remember the forked process inherits your existing one and you want to clean it up
14:05 batman hm... i think i will do that in the next version :/
14:05 batman adding it to todo
14:05 batman making a new release with the new timeout first
14:05 sri it's at least easy to test :)
14:06 batman trying to understand what the code actually does while discussing grumpify is not super easy to me :)
14:06 sri whenever a new operation starts it checks if the pid changed, and if it did cleans up all existing connections
14:07 batman right. but i'm not sure what do to about the message queue
14:07 sri since those connections belong to the parent process
14:07 batman should it clear the message queue as well..?
14:07 batman Mojo::Redis 0.9913 soon on cpan...
14:07 sri if you have active operations those will get an error during cleanup
14:08 sri (or should)
14:08 batman right.
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14:17 sri hmmm
14:17 sri i actually have a test case for the is_readable check in _write, not sure how portable it is though
14:18 sri shutdown $handle, 2; in between two operations seems to work for MongoDB
14:21 sri ah, it depends on timing though, so not reliable :(
14:22 sri suppose i could just wait for the handle to become readable in the test
14:22 sri but depending on shutdown to work is kinda meh
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16:52 jberger o/
16:55 jberger sri: I finally have time to work on some outstanding projects, including the memorize helper
16:55 jberger I have a design question
16:56 jberger expires takes an epoch time, but you suggested using steady_time, that doesn't correspond to the epoch
16:56 jberger so using it would change the interface to specify a duration not an absolute expiration time
16:57 jberger unless you have a better suggestion
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17:24 sri jberger: old design predates steady_time
17:24 sri these days i would use a relative time
17:25 jberger I guessed as much
17:25 jberger that said, I have tried to design the new plugin to be a drop-in replacement
17:25 jberger maybe a different keyword?
17:26 sri if you allow an epoch time you can't use steady_time
17:26 jberger I guess, since its an opt-in replacement (you have to use it after all) I guess I could change the api
17:28 sri other parts of mojolicious can't use steady_time either, like sessions
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17:30 jberger I can't really decide, this use-case doesn't really need steady_time, all that would happen is that the template might be invalidated more often than otherwise expected
17:31 sri that's not actually what steady_time solves
17:31 sri the problem is jumps backwards in time, where things would never get invalidated
17:31 jberger not never, just longer, but you're right, backward would be worse than forwards here
17:32 sri if you jump backwards regularly it could never expire
17:33 jberger true, in multiple jumps
17:33 jberger ok, you have me convinced, steady_time it should be
17:33 sri only real problem with forward jumps is that a lot of stuff can happen at once
17:36 jberger I still think I might want to change the key from 'expires' to something else though
17:36 jberger actually I can do both!
17:36 jberger if expires is specified, determine the delta from now, then use that delta for the steady_time
17:39 jberger hmmm, no that might not work
17:39 jberger nm
17:40 jberger it would work the first time, but not on subsequent times
17:41 jberger the more I think of that, the more that seems to always be a problem with using steady_time
17:42 * jberger 's brain is starting to hurt
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17:53 jberger why doesn't janeway just ask Q to send them back to earth?!
18:07 jberger sri: I would appreciate any comments: https://github.com/jberger/Mojolic​ious-Plugin-Memorize/blob/master/l​ib/Mojolicious/Plugin/Memorize.pm
18:10 jberger actually, I probably ought to credit you in the docs, most of this logic is yours
18:18 sri jberger: looks good
18:18 jberger except for the choice of the timing, its ready to go
18:19 sri of course i'm not a fan of the formatting
18:19 jberger oh right
18:19 sri lines longer than 90 chars make me want to strangle you
18:19 jberger haha
18:19 jberger I can fix that
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18:20 sri or actually 120... because i'm modern!
18:20 sri people less liberal will strangle you even for 80
18:21 jberger yeah, I'm aware
18:21 jberger my editor line wraps, so I don't usually notice
18:21 jberger for my thesis, I put a new sentence on each line
18:22 jberger that worked sensibly enough
18:22 sri i used to do that for documentation, was not very popular
18:22 jberger does perltidy do this for you, or your editor, or just done by hand? (just curious)
18:23 sri for code it does, but not pod
18:23 jberger the code looks to be of proper length
18:24 jberger let my tidy the pod
18:24 sri my OCD in combination with a gui editor make it easy to spot though ;p
18:24 preaction do you honestly think it would be a good idea to owe a favor to Q?
18:24 jberger if you get home!
18:24 jberger she just ended their civil war, I think they owed her!
18:25 * jberger tries to suspend disbelief
18:25 preaction you know nothing, jon snow
18:25 jberger haha
18:25 jberger that was the correct answer
18:25 * sri is with jberger on that
18:26 jberger so I finally got this smartphone and what do I use it for mostly? watching through star trek voyager on netflix
18:26 sri lol
18:26 sri that's what smartphones were invented for
18:26 stephan48 is there any reason else to own an smartphone?
18:26 stephan48 haha
18:27 jberger :-)
18:28 sri and to imagine that show predates modern mobile phones
18:29 jberger I know, its incredible to look at them using the rediculously futuristic touchpads they use, and know that I'm using one, not 15 years later
18:30 sri it's time for another star trek show!
18:30 jberger YES!
18:30 jberger they are going to have to jump a few centuries forward though
18:31 sri i heard they were considering a captain worf series
18:31 jberger that would be awesome!
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18:35 sri but i doubt it's going to happen as long as jj abrams is raking in cash with the movie reboots
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18:35 jberger its tough to maintain two timelines
18:36 jberger that said, the new movies are bringing in new star trek fans, the time might be better than ever for a new series
18:37 sri dunno, the movies are mostly on earth and full of action
18:37 tempire I don't know that a captain worf series would do that well.
18:37 tempire The Rick Berman controlled star trek is very tired.
18:39 sri Heghlu'DI' mobbe'lu'chugh QaQpu' Hegh wanI'
18:39 sri !
18:39 jberger well if I'm not going to use steady_time for the module, I should remove it from the tests, to make it more back compatible
18:39 tempire I always found the klingon culture kind of boring.
18:40 tempire loved the dominion, though
18:40 jberger though I watched voyager when it first came out, I was rather young. Now I really am liking that there is an overarching thread, TNG and TOS were rather aimless without one
18:41 sri borg!
18:41 tempire DS9
18:41 tempire is the master of overarching thread.
18:42 jberger I never really got into DS9 back in the day, maybe I should give it another try next
18:42 tempire It is. The most amazing. Star Trek show.
18:42 sri ds9 is pretty good
18:42 tempire It gets good when Sisko shaves his head.
18:42 tempire That's how you know !@#$ is about to go down.
18:43 jberger hehe, about the only thing I remember was that Dax is hot
18:43 sri nobody ever disagrees with Enterprise being the worst
18:43 sri (2001)
18:43 tempire indeed.
18:43 jberger I've never watched a minute of it
18:43 tempire I tried. Really tried.
18:43 tempire Just. Horrible.
18:44 tempire The borg are old news. The Destiny trilogy book series...you seriously need to read it.
18:44 tempire It's amazing.
18:44 tempire http://latimesherocomplex.files.wordpress.com/20​12/03/startrekdestinyseries.jpg?w=600&amp;h=321
18:44 tempire Everything about the borg.
18:44 tempire I can't say anything without giving it away.
18:45 tempire And don't read the spoilers!!!!!!!!!11
18:45 jberger looks good, and if you say its worth it, I'll give them a try
18:45 tempire ZOMG it's worth it.
18:45 jberger I loved the borg episodes (and first contact)
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18:46 jberger $10 complete set on kindle!? I'm sold
18:47 jberger damn, its like downloading a book from the ship's computer to my touchpad
18:47 jberger :-)
18:48 jberger well, now I have something to do on the train for the next while
18:48 jberger thanks tempire !
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18:52 * jberger has an idea for using steady_time
18:54 jberger going to have to wait until after lunch
18:55 peaches Kira was hot too
18:55 sri in case anyone here didn't get how awesome SO_REUSEPORT in linux 3.9 is http://freeprogrammersblog.vhex.net/post/linux-3​9-introdued-new-way-of-writing-socket-servers/2
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19:51 jamesw took them long enough
19:54 jamesw did they also fix SO_REUSEADDR?
19:58 jamesw way to go linux 3.9 with the support of BSD 4.4 socket features
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20:19 sri jamesw: what's the name of the BSD feature?
20:21 sri if you mean the feature with the same name... read the article
20:25 sri haha, most of hackernews also seems to get it wrong
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21:31 jamesw what were the differences again?
21:31 sri at this point i'm actually not sure anymore... the bsd docs are so confusing
21:31 sri https://lwn.net/Articles/542629/ # this one describes the linux version very well though
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22:07 sri hmmmm... so SO_REUSEPORT kinda works on os x
22:09 sri good enough for zero downtime, so might be worth adding an option for it
22:10 sri http://paste.ubuntu.com/6023002/ # very very simple to add
22:10 sri on bsd there is no load balancing between processes though
22:11 sri i've heard rumors that SO_REUSEADDR has the same effect on windows, is that true?
22:12 sri would be funny if we unknowingly had zero downtime support on windows
22:17 chansen LOL
22:40 sri marcus, tempire, crab, jberger: yay or nay for reuse_port support?
22:41 sri i was thinking a command line option for daemon and prefork, as well as a config option for hypnotoad
22:41 sri ./myapp.pl daemon --reuse-port
23:08 sri http://paste.ubuntu.com/6023147/ # does seem like something we would support
23:09 sri downside however is that it's pretty much impossible to test reliably
23:23 sri actually... i suppose it would be a listen option
23:23 sri -l http://*:3000?reuse=1
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23:43 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Cxc6SQ
23:43 good_news_everyone mojo/master 2ab7ac0 Sebastian Riedel: added SO_REUSEPORT support
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23:43 sri ok, that version has minimal side effects
23:44 sri doubt it will ever be testable, but it's so useful
23:46 sri mojo daemon -l http://*:3000?reuse=1
23:47 sri run it a few times and you have a cheap zero downtime setup even with the small daemon
23:56 sri jberger, marcus, tempire, crab: i still want your opinions, SLACKERS!

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