Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #mojo, 2013-10-27

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Time Nick Message
00:00 sri can't do overlay results anyway, since those templates need to work offline :)
00:00 sri but that field in the menubar should be convenient enough
00:00 sri it's already live http://mojolicio.us/
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00:09 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yCjNAA
00:09 good_news_everyone mojo/master 7e84891 Sebastian Riedel: clear search field after submit
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00:11 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/CTr4kA
00:11 good_news_everyone mojo/master 994be43 Sebastian Riedel: do not clear search field after submit
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00:35 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/sr1njg
00:35 good_news_everyone mojo/master 4c00971 Sebastian Riedel: better align menu
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00:45 * tempire searches
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01:29 damaya sri: it's so simple, but I like it!
01:30 damaya I mean just a small enhancement, but awesome.
01:34 damaya I just googled "Mojolicious EventSource" in my toolbar and then reminded myself, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no..." and then used your search and got exactly what I was looking for (i.e., the cookbook).
01:36 sri \o/
01:37 * sri wonders if the wiki should be included too... it's very mixed quality
01:39 sri or the blog and my gists
01:39 sri hmm
01:40 sri maybe all core dev gists
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02:10 damaya I like the gists, they are often really helpful.
02:10 damaya And your blog too. I like the Hack of the Day articles on there.
02:32 * jberger catches up on the log
02:33 * jberger remembers that he never finished his mojo non-blocking blog post from the other weekend
02:33 jberger I now want to write a follow-up based on that SO post from the other day, but to do a follow up, I need to do the first one I guess :-P
02:37 sri indubitably
02:39 jberger sri++ # search!
02:40 jberger batman++ # assetpack
02:40 jberger nicomen, I don't get this: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​mojo/2013-10-26#i_7768924
02:45 * jberger is going to try to knock out this first post tonight
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03:11 bpmedley Search is really cool, thx.
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03:30 jberger_ sri: https://twitter.com/joelaberg​er/status/394304645872377856
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03:31 sri jberger++
03:31 jberger_ it was almost ready before
03:31 jberger_ it just needed those tweaks we discussed
03:32 jberger_ mostly that I not use a counter to assign page number sequentially
03:34 jberger_ sri: perl does not understand \N{MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING}
03:35 jberger_ !
03:35 sri YET!
03:35 jberger_ :-)
03:36 jberger_ symbola does have it in the font though
03:36 * jberger_ wipes brow
03:36 jberger_ <3 symbola font
03:36 sri it got into the spec because it is in webdings :)
03:37 sri so availability is really not a problem
03:37 jberger_ http://babelstone.blogspot.com/201​3/10/whats-new-in-unicode-70.html
03:37 jberger_ I see, its new in 7.0
03:38 jberger_ they really called it: Raised Hand with Part Between Middle and Ring Fingers
03:38 jberger_ seriously, we all know what that is called
03:39 sri \N{LIVE LONG AND PROSPER}
03:39 jberger_ exactly!!
03:39 * jberger_ cries over the missed opportunity
03:40 * sri demands an alias
03:40 * sri wonders why he can't connect to freenode
03:41 * jberger_ is scared by freenode
03:41 jberger_ actually I only started using IRC and indeed #mojo when I saw tempire's YAPC talk which touted the friendliness of this room
03:42 jberger_ #mojo++
03:42 sri and now we are all old and grumpy
03:43 jberger_ I think we do ok
03:45 sri MUHAHAHAHA... we are #1 again! TAKE THAT MOOSE!!!!1 https://metacpan.org/favorite/leaderboard
03:45 jberger_ actually, I take a small amount of credit for that, I had forgotten to +1 Mojolicious myself (ooops)
03:45 * jberger_ ducks
03:46 sri --.-
03:46 jberger_ sri: do you think this would become a good part 2? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19505798/us​ing-anyevent-run-cmd-in-mojolicious-i-keep-get​ting-this-error-anyeventcon/19555801#19555801
03:46 jberger_ if so, I'm trying to think of what good external processes to be the example
03:47 sri sure
03:47 jberger_ my first thought is file conversion of several files using pandoc
03:47 jberger_ its like the OP's question from SO, but a little easier to setup
03:48 sri or converting an image/video
03:48 jberger_ for me personally, rendering LaTeX makes sense, but that's such a HUGE installation hassle if you wanted to run the example
03:48 jberger_ oh thats a good idea
03:49 jberger_ image conversion using external imagemagick (yes I could use a Perl module, but it wouldn't be nonblocking either)
03:49 sri right
03:52 jberger_ ok I've got it, webapp which searches for a tag on some site, non-blocking downloads the images (say xkcd or icanhazcheezburger or some such), and takes a resize parameter, then returns a zip file of the results
03:53 jberger_ that needs three steps, two of which have parallel requests
03:53 jberger_ maybe its too involved :-/
03:54 jberger_ maybe just a local webapp which makes a thumbnail page for a directory of images
03:54 jberger_ (from your own filesystem)
03:55 jberger_ I'll think about it
03:56 bpmedley jberger: You might consider a real-time indexer for a set of files.
03:56 jberger_ bpmedley, I'm not sure I follow
03:57 jberger_ could be that I'm rather tired tho
03:57 bpmedley Indexing is usually done in the background and can't be utilized until finished.  So, perhaps index metadata on some images and allow for a search during index creation.
04:00 jberger_ this part isn't so much about real-time as it is about non-blocking
04:00 jberger_ I suppose those are related, but I'm not sure how I would do it
04:01 jberger_ plus you would need a rather large data-set before you would see the benefit I imagine
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04:03 bpmedley Perhaps using something like: https://metacpan.org/pod/AnyEvent#I-O-WATCHERS
04:04 bpmedley Yes, a large data set probably would be needed.  That kind of ruins a small example.
04:04 jberger_ its not a bad example, just not the one I'm envisioning next
04:04 jberger_ I would love to see it though
04:07 jberger_ why I'm tired: http://goo.gl/VpDZBL
04:08 jberger_ yes the river is beautiful, but its a long drive
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04:32 bpmedley https://github.com/brianmed/reverse-proxy  <-- First attempt at a reverse http proxy.  Eventually, I want to use this to server my Mojo stuff instead of having apache do so much..  It's almost beta.. :)
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06:54 damaya In the file structure of my webapp, where should plugins go?
06:54 damaya lib/Plugins?
07:02 lizzzin sure
07:02 damaya Actually, got it.
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09:00 marcus damaya: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolici​ous/Guides/Rendering#Helper_plugins
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10:18 batman sri: maybe you want #mojobar-links input:focus { outline: 0 } ?
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13:02 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Vl_IGw
13:02 good_news_everyone mojo/master 4e80775 Sebastian Riedel: hide outline
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13:02 sri batman: yea
13:26 sri jberger: i still don't like your use of tag helpers :o
13:26 sri jberger: btw. there's now label_for
13:27 sri jberger: and submit_button
13:27 jberger sri: yes I'm using label_for in my stuff, but since its so new, I didn't use it in the example
13:27 sri it's not experimental anymore
13:28 sri USE IT!
13:28 * sri shakes jberger
13:28 jberger no, its not that its experimental, I was worried about people running the example with too old of a Mojolicious version
13:28 * jberger could update the example
13:29 sri mango is still very new too ;p
13:30 sri and actually experimental
13:31 jberger hehe true
13:31 jberger I can't remember why I didn't use submit_button
13:31 jberger :-/
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13:42 good_news_everyone [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/5DDE8g
13:42 good_news_everyone mojo/master 1851f0e Joel Berger: fixed typo in TagHelper/label_for
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13:56 sri jberger: btw. do you have an opinion on the configurable error class thing?
13:57 jberger I was going to say making it configurable is nice, but not really necessary, but then I saw you withdraw it
13:57 sri toward the end of this thread is a bit of a discussion https://groups.google.com/forum/​#!topic/mojolicious/93AgZ93CgOA
13:57 jberger it would be nice, because libraries like say bootstrap have pre-built styles for this
13:58 sri i was impartial on it, and as many folks were against it as in favor
13:58 sri i don't really like any of the proposed solutions :S
13:59 sri in rails it's a config setting btw.
14:00 jberger well I can't say that a great implementation mechanism is popping into my mind
14:01 jberger my first thought would be that the class would be stored in a mojo. stash value, then expose a helper which sets it
14:01 jberger this would then feel like title helper or layout helper
14:02 sri i don't think we should throw helpers at everything
14:02 jberger no I don't think so either, but its better than throwing reserved stash values imo
14:02 jberger not that its all that different
14:02 sri % validation_error_class 'my-field-with-error';
14:03 sri that's not particularly pretty either
14:03 jberger I don't think its all that bad
14:04 sri but you also like using the tag helper all over the place ;p
14:04 jberger yeah, I'm not sure you want to trust me on this stuff :-P
14:06 jberger my best case for tag helpers vs actual tags is ul/li groups
14:06 sri i wonder what helpers actually cost now (memory and template processing time)
14:07 jberger tag ul begin ... end, filled with tag li 'text', is so much nicer IMO, and its much more like \begin{itemize} \item ... \item ... \end{itemize}
14:08 sri MOJO_TEMPLATE_DEBUG=1 perl -Mojo -E 'a({inline => "%= 1 + 1"})->start' get /
14:08 sri there is a bit of overhead
14:08 jberger that's what I should say in my defense, I don't like having to close tags if its not ambiguous
14:09 sri jberger: i think you might like alternative template engines like haml/slim/jade
14:09 sri perhaps port jade to perl :)
14:09 jberger I've never looked at anything like that, I'll take a look
14:09 sri http://jade-lang.com/
14:10 sri http://slim-lang.com/
14:10 sri vti did a haml port once, but i don't think it's maintained anymore
14:10 jberger hey! metacpan links are finally coming towards the top of google searches
14:11 sri slim and jade are the new hotness anyway though
14:12 jberger ok, I will check them out, but as soon as I looked at jade it reminded me of yanick's Template::Caribou (and thus my google search)
14:12 jberger https://metacpan.org/pod/Template::Caribou
14:12 sri i wouldn't say those are similar at all
14:12 sri they are more like yaml with embedded code
14:14 jberger if you allow yourself to see indents as {} (or really sub{}) then it looks similar to me
14:15 jberger and that's the mental translation between python and perl (which I have to do often lately)
14:16 jberger jade's div syntax is handy
14:17 jberger but it would be near impossible to port to perl effectively
14:17 jberger ... as a declarative that is,
14:17 jberger a perl interpreter for it would be easy enough
14:18 sri jberger: posted your proposal to the list :p
14:19 sri jberger: you're looking at it wrong, it would be an engine similar to Mojo::Template
14:20 sri not perl code
14:20 jberger yeah, I got there
14:20 * jberger has not had coffee yet this morning
14:20 * jberger should probably get on that
14:21 sri i've thought about perl templates so many times... i don't think they can work well
14:22 jberger I really like Mojo::Template and TagHelpers, I just take it to a possibly unhealthy extreme is all :-D
14:22 sri perhaps there's a way to extend Mojo::Template to make it more healthy
14:22 * sri shrugs
14:23 jberger I'm seeing this as a possible reason to learn Marpa and parsers
14:23 sri https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Haml # the closest we have in perl atm
14:23 * jberger wonders if one of these templating languages has a BNF grammar
14:23 sri haha
14:24 jberger I learn best by having a challenge
14:24 jberger I wrote Galileo to learn Mojo
14:24 jberger I would do a LOT of things differently if (and when) I would do it again
14:25 jberger but I wouldn't have learned nearly as much just by doing toy projects
14:25 sri wow, a Marpa frontend that generates the Mojo::Template AST... i wonder how much code you would have to write in the end
14:25 jberger :-P
14:25 jberger I've wanted a good reason to play with Marpa, but couldn't come up with one
14:26 jberger now the problem is $time
14:26 jberger ungh, c-style loops in jade
14:26 sri i think that's just javascript
14:26 jberger oh
14:27 jberger yeah, it looks like you are right
14:27 jberger ungh, c-style loops in javascript in jade
14:27 jberger :-P
14:30 jberger the more javascript I see in this, the more I think that Mojo::Template/TagHelpers is fine
14:31 jberger its not all that different, it just marginally fewer printable characters
14:31 jberger but that argument doesn't sway me to python over perl, so I don't think its going to sway me to this either
14:31 sri SAVE THE ELECTRONS!
14:32 jberger http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/​journal/jap/108/12/10.1063/1.3512847
14:33 jberger oh was that not what you meant :-P
14:33 sri :D
14:37 jberger I could make Mojolicious::Plugin::MoreTagHelpers which would just add lots of helpers that just call back to tag
14:37 jberger h1 h2 h3 ul li and so on and so forth
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14:42 sri that might be interesting for getting a feel for the cost of tag helpers alone
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14:43 jberger sri: what is your major concern for me here, style or cycles?
14:43 sri cycles
14:44 jberger well yes there is that
14:44 sri MOJO_TEMPLATE_DEBUG=1 perl -Mojo -E 'a({inline => "%= 1 + 1"})->start' get
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14:44 sri there's a little bit of boilerplate associated with every helper
14:45 jberger yes, but I have to believe that most of that time is spent starting the server
14:45 jberger I should run wrt on this
14:45 sri it's not
14:46 jberger wrk
14:46 sri that code runs with every rendering
14:46 jberger no, that's not what I meant
14:46 jberger I mean the time it takes to show me the result
14:46 jberger of course that happens on each render
14:47 jberger but the wallclock time it takes to show me a result has to mostly be setting up the server
14:47 sri not sure i follow
14:48 jberger oh wait
14:48 jberger I'm not sure I follow your example
14:49 batman i think i would rather make a new template engine, which can optimize away the helpers
14:50 sri when you render a template, it gets compiled the first time you render it, and the last 100 get cached, however, all helper boilerplate code you see in the oneliner example runs every time you render
14:50 batman like the slim language or something
14:50 sri batman: i don't think you can optimize away the helpers without losing a lot of functionality
14:50 batman sri: sorry. not helpers, but the syntax that looks like helpers
14:51 batman not in .ep but something else.
14:52 batman you could add a pre-compiler which convert all the static html stuff and then just add the variables later on
14:53 batman %= h1 "MyHeader", class => $myclass # could be precompiled to <h1 class="<%= $myclass %>">MyHeader</h1>
14:53 sri that's how those engines work
14:53 sri tags are precompiled in the AST
14:54 sri it's just a preprocessing step, the engine itself is similar to Mojo::Template
14:54 batman right.
14:54 jberger can't those helpers get imported into the sandbox namespace?
14:55 batman jberger: they can, but your way of writing templates are super slow compared to mine.
14:55 batman %= tag h1 === super slow compared to just <h1>...</h1>
14:55 batman oops! forgot quotes :/
14:55 sri jberger: you're welcome to make EPRenderer faster :)
14:55 batman yeah, that would actually be super sweet if you could add a pre-processor to EPRenderer :)
14:55 sri the unit tests are very very good, so not much to go wrong
14:56 * sri is talking about helpers, not preprocessing tags
14:57 jberger I guess the concern would that adding a helper might get missed
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15:02 batman https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS # not sure if this is interesting...
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15:18 sri jberger: the controller instance needs to be passed to helpers
15:19 jberger sri: that can be dealt with
15:19 jberger local package variable would work
15:23 sri looking forward to your proposal :)
15:23 jberger I'm thinking about it
15:23 jberger does ep handle adding helpers after caching the template?
15:24 sri i don't think so
15:24 jberger I guess they wouldn't get used
15:24 jberger so that makes sense
15:25 sri you can't prepare them during register time, but once for the first template might actually work
15:25 sri (since the EPRenderer plugin gets loaded way early)
15:25 jberger yeah
15:25 jberger that would be my thought too
15:27 sri you still need compiler hints though i believe
15:27 sri "sub foo;"
15:27 jberger not if you compile the subs into the package
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15:28 jberger I doubt too many people change the namespace, but that would have to be handled
15:29 sri you can only change the namespace during register time
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15:29 sri so that shouldn't be an issue
15:30 jberger oh, cool
15:31 sri i think your idea might work, would be cool if taghelpers had no cost anymore
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15:32 jberger yeah
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15:33 * jberger needs to switch computers
15:38 * jberger_ now has coffee and a larger monitor
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16:23 * marcus is in love with chat.meatspac.es
16:23 marcus maybe I should do a mojo clone.
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16:40 sri chatroulette 2.0? think i'll pass!
16:41 * sri pokes jberger
16:41 sri progress? :)
16:47 marcus sri: It's like chatroulette but without dicks!
16:47 marcus But ofcourse, there's no way that will last...
16:47 jberger_ sri: debugging this is ... fun
16:51 sri :)
16:52 jberger_ unfortunately I'm going to have to stop for a bit
16:52 jberger_ I can pass you a diff if you want to take a peek
16:52 sri paste what you got and let me try finish it later?
16:53 * sri has no time atm either
16:54 sri ah, you said "for a bit"... so you may still beat me to it ;p
16:54 jberger_ a few hours
16:59 jberger_ eh, its not really ready to pass off
17:02 sri :o
17:05 jberger_ sri: here's what I have
17:05 jberger_ http://pastie.org/8435003
17:05 jberger_ ttyl o/
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18:36 sri jberger: think i have a solution that's not totally horrible :)
18:40 sri http://pastie.org/8435233 # this one actually passes all our unit tests
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19:01 sri in a simple benchmark with 10k templates it doubles the performance
19:02 sri change is really a no-brainer :)
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19:03 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tXIFfQ
19:03 good_news_everyone mojo/master d38bf39 Sebastian Riedel: improved .ep template performance significantly, the number of helpers no longer has any effect
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19:04 sri the more helpers you have the bigger the gain
19:05 sri jberger++
19:07 sri aside from this one line, the code even gets cleaner :D https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/d38​bf39293ad67649150c5705b9fba44da339b13#di​ff-3232c50beb28eaedf75f5a67dd9b1ca4R46
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19:31 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8dO_GQ
19:31 good_news_everyone mojo/master cb18006 Sebastian Riedel: small optimization
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20:02 bpmedley Sweet; no more apache.  My reverse proxy is working.. :)
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20:24 sri oh, another nice side effect is that teplates become a lot more readable! http://i.imgur.com/3nchaVq.png
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20:27 damaya Hey guys, my app is basically done at this point. My only question (it's a full app) is that I'd like to integrate what runs currently as a daemon and updates a database into my app in an IOloop that runs every 30 seconds. I know where plugins go, helpers, etc... but I am wondering where I should put code that will run all the time without anyone hitting a URL (a daemon).
20:32 jberger_ sri: I noticed that the DEBUG output was going to be better too
20:32 jberger_ excellent!
20:32 jberger_ sri++
20:32 damaya If my question is misguided or not possible, can someone let me know?
20:33 jberger_ damaya, I just walked in the door, let me look
20:33 damaya Thanks jberger_. I think that I may just need to keep the updating of the database in a daemon
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20:36 jberger_ IIRC I think we have generally discouraged the use of Mojo::IOLoop->recurring for batch jobs
20:36 damaya Ah, so a daemon is probably the better way to go?
20:37 damaya I was wanting the database to update and emit an event, really the only reason I was thinking of getting rid of the daemon aspect of things... not a big deal, was more just curious about it.
20:37 jberger_ here: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​mojo/2013-09-30#i_7651351
20:37 jberger_ I knew I had seen this one come up on the chat before
20:38 jberger_ the recommendation is to use a cron job to do non-server work
20:38 jberger_ damaya, have you experimented with the commands system yet?
20:38 damaya jberger_, No, not at all.
20:39 jberger_ you can make a command line application which interacts with your app quite easily
20:39 damaya Can you point me to the relevant documentation?
20:39 damaya No way... That's exactly what I am after!
20:39 jberger_ so you would make a command which would be called by cron
20:39 * jberger_ looks
20:40 jberger_ damaya, http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Gui​des/Cookbook#Adding_commands_to_Mojolicious
20:40 damaya Mojolicious::Commands ?
20:40 damaya ohh, it's in the damn cookbook?
20:40 jberger_ basically
20:40 damaya I've read the entire thing, can't believe I missed that.
20:40 damaya My brain ignores the things I need.
20:40 jberger_ remember all of the use doc is basically in Mojolicious::Lite or the Guides
20:40 jberger_ haha
20:41 damaya Awesome, thank you jberger_. I'm off to do some reading and put the finishing touches on this app.
20:41 jberger_ also, any of the commads that you run against your own app already or against the mojo cli are actually commands, so you can use them as examples
20:41 jberger_ damaya, yay!
20:42 jberger_ damaya, one more example, from my CMS, https://github.com/jberger/Galileo/bl​ob/master/lib/Galileo/Command/dump.pm
20:42 jberger_ its a command that you can run against the cms which walks the database and writes all the pages as markdown to a directory
20:43 jberger_ and I could imagine that if I was doing that as a backup, I could have a cron job run that every hour or so
20:43 jberger_ but you get the idea
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21:11 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/jHXLNQ
21:11 good_news_everyone mojo/master b52cea6 Sebastian Riedel: better exception formatting
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21:12 * sri still wonders what to do about the validation error class
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21:19 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/3JiCBQ
21:19 good_news_everyone mojo/master a5b77a3 Sebastian Riedel: sort headers in exception template
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21:24 sri i guess a helper would make sense now that there is no cost anymore
21:24 sri but i still don't like the look of it particularly :S
21:24 sri % validation_error_class 'my-field-with-error';
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22:48 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tTsGXA
22:48 good_news_everyone mojo/master f118fdc Sebastian Riedel: make list of keys only once
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22:55 gtodd is there such a thing as "asset packing" for mojo .. built in or a plug-in?
22:55 gtodd à la Jammit (for rails)
22:56 sri https://metacpan.org/pod/Moj​olicious::Plugin::AssetPack
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23:03 sri marcus, crab, tempire: no opinions on validation_error_class?
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