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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-02-22

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 tempire I suppose each path could be it's own set of steps defined in a separate sub
00:01 tempire that would be better
00:02 sri ok, that's better
00:03 sri looking through other existing step libraries, it looks like nobody has really solved the multiple path problem... so maybe exposting ->remaining would be a sensible first step
00:04 tempire hmm
00:04 tempire what if there were multiple scopes of steps that you could jump to?
00:05 tempire delay->steps(thing1 => [sub {}, sub {}], thing2 => [sub {}, sub {}])
00:06 sri i'm not comfortable going any further... this needs time
00:06 tempire agreed.
00:06 tempire I'm just throwing ideas.
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00:06 tempire 'cause multiple paths is something I run into all the time
00:06 sri this at least allows you to make such experiments from the outside
00:07 sri any supporters for $delay->data?
00:08 tempire I don't know that I can agree with any method name called data.
00:08 tempire But I would use it, regardless of its name.
00:09 sri then keep brainstorming names
00:10 tempire Would it really be that bad to call it stash?
00:10 tempire since it has the same functionality?
00:16 sri yes, that would be bad
00:17 sri "WHY DOESN'T $delay->stash(foo => "bar") SHOW UP IN MY TEMPLATE AS $foo"
00:17 sri YOU SAY STASH WORKS LIKE THAT IN THE GUIDES!!!1
00:18 sri it's not just bad... it's terrible!
00:19 sri stash is not just a method, it is a concept that touches many aspects of the whole framework
00:20 bpmedley $delay->argv?
00:20 sri oh god
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00:21 bpmedley :)
00:21 * sri sets bpmedley on fire
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00:25 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9zgCAw
00:25 good_news_everyone mojo/master 87ae27b Sebastian Riedel: added remaining attribute to Mojo::IOLoop::Delay
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00:25 tempire ->trove
00:25 sri well, you can have that... but $delay->stash() is a total no-go for me
00:25 tempire ->store
00:26 tempire ->silo
00:26 tempire ->depot
00:26 sri think about how the method description will read
00:27 tempire ->in_memory_temporary_storage
00:28 bpmedley $delay->private_data
00:28 tempire ->megasplat
00:28 * tempire ducks
00:29 sri i was cool with ->data and ->scope, but now i forgot the description i had for scope... so i guess it's out again
00:29 tempire data would be consistent with jquery
00:30 sri data in jquery is for data-* attributes though
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00:40 morzechowski hey, I'm using https://github.com/jamadam/mojo-legacy
00:40 morzechowski as the code I'm writing has to run on 5.8.*
00:40 morzechowski I started to intgrate my small project with Millzila and Carton
00:40 morzechowski I'm wondering how can I integrate the mojo legacy that I'm using thith those
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00:42 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/zTNEjw
00:42 good_news_everyone mojo/master 8cf8077 Sebastian Riedel: added data method to Mojo::IOLoop::Delay
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00:42 sri well, if there's no consensus, i dictate
00:42 * sri pokes tempire and batman
00:43 tempire I'm ok with data. I don't see a better option.
00:43 sri since batman asked for that a few months/weeks ago too
00:43 sri tempire: dunno why you were opposed to data in the first place
00:44 tempire because naming anything "data" or "info" is always a red flag.
00:44 sri it's not like it contains anything else that truly arbitrary data
00:44 tempire right, it actually is "just data"
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00:50 sri hmmm... still pondering "sub data { shift->Mojo::_dict(data => @_) }"
00:51 sri and maybe the same for sub stash {}
00:51 tempire seems reasonable
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00:56 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wOzaCw
00:56 good_news_everyone mojo/master 78637fd Sebastian Riedel: share stash implementation
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01:04 sri guess jberger might care too
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01:19 * sri does wonder if ->remaining should be merged into ->steps
01:20 sri but maybe the documentation is easier if they are separate
01:20 sri lines of code would be the same
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01:53 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yKyJHQ
01:53 good_news_everyone mojo/master e4fb6f5 Sebastian Riedel: simplify configuration merge
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02:45 bpmedley http://liveperl.us/ <-- Would someone comment on the new sections and possibly have ideas on new sections?
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02:56 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/n5w8eQ
02:56 good_news_everyone mojo/master 40b0d93 Sebastian Riedel: merge stash a little faster
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04:48 * sri wonders if $delay->pass(...) should be an alias for $delay->begin(0)->(...)
04:57 sri or maybe more obvious... $delay->begin_end(...)
04:57 sri :)
05:00 Adura So _ is the duration.
05:12 sri omg... the proposed second revision of step.js looks almost exactly like our delays :O https://gist.github.com/creationix/1524578
05:12 sri even the ->pass() method i just proposed is there
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05:55 mst sri: this your equivalent of https://metacpan.org/pod/Future::Utils ?
05:56 sri i would say alternative
05:56 mst I mean "thing I'd use for a similar purpose to"
05:56 mst it's clearly a very different API
05:56 sri yea, it's closer to async.js or step.js
05:58 sri the goal is to simply flatten the pyramid of doom
05:58 mst oh, callback pyramid?
05:58 * sri nods
05:58 mst I've got very fond of futures for that
05:59 sri i really hate futures
05:59 sri or promises
05:59 purl promises is http://i.imgur.com/7aTdI.jpg
05:59 mst weird, I find them really quite pleasant
05:59 mst much more so than callback async
05:59 sri it starts with their perltidy incompatibility
05:59 mst huh?
05:59 sri try making a ->then chain pretty!
06:00 mst perltidy won't line up the -> calls?
06:00 * sri nods
06:00 mst but but but
06:00 mst $thing->some_method(...)
06:00 mst ->other_method(...)
06:00 mst is sooo nice
06:00 mst perltidy eats it? :(
06:02 sri eats it and spits out the pieces
06:02 mst bah
06:02 sri nothing worse than a method chain with closures
06:03 sri i so wish we could do this stuff in perl properly https://github.com/visionmedia/co
06:04 mst maybe one day I'll try :)
06:04 mst I'm sure ripping half of Coro out would do it
06:04 mst at least to prove the concept
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06:05 sri i also like where perl6 is heading there with supplies
06:06 mst lost track of that
06:07 sri it got native promises now too :) http://perlcabal.org/syn/S17.html
06:08 sri you don't have to take it serious, but i find it quite inspiring
06:09 sri "For instance, $*POSIX is a Supply in which POSIX signals received by the running process, will appear as POSIX::Signal objects to taps."
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06:10 mst oh, very neat
06:10 jberger_ Just read the log. sri++
06:11 * jberger_ goes to bed
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06:18 mst sri: supplies look like a nice extension of something I'd been pondering
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06:19 sri oh, look at that, Convos would actually benefit from ->pass() https://metacpan.org/source/JHTHORSEN/Convos-0.4002/lib/Convos/Client.pm#L94
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06:24 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Q5mU2g
06:24 good_news_everyone mojo/master a3dacec Sebastian Riedel: added pass method to Mojo::IOLoop::Delay
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06:24 tempire pass instead of next?
06:25 sri pass because i expect you'll often pass along a few values too
06:25 tempire which reminds me
06:26 tempire what was the reasoning behind dropping the first arg of whatever is passed to begin?
06:26 tempire (without the 0)
06:26 sri look at all out non-blocking apis ;)
06:26 sri *our
06:27 sri there's always an invocant
06:27 tempire ah
06:28 sri ->pass() does not make the api look more complicated does it?
06:28 tempire no
06:28 tempire not at all.
06:28 sri ok, that's my only worry atm
06:28 tempire I've been using my own abstraction to do a similar thing
06:28 tempire ->begin(0)->() was too ugly
06:29 sri there's a lot of interesting stuff in the TwoStep.js discussion https://gist.github.com/creationix/1524578
06:30 * tempire struggles with mongodb nested queries
06:38 sri especially the this.skipTo stuff, that could work in perl too :)
06:39 tempire oh
06:39 tempire I dig that.
06:39 tempire totes.
06:39 sri $delay->steps(sub { $delay->skip_to('bar') }, \&foo, \&bar);
06:40 sri should be possible to dig up the name of the coderef with B
06:40 sri then just discard everything from the remaining list until you've reached it
06:42 tempire hmm
06:42 tempire what about using an attribute for inline?
06:42 tempire sub : foo { }
06:44 sri perl -MB=svref_2object -E 'sub bar {}; my $foo = \&bar; say svref_2object($foo)->GV->NAME'
06:45 sri this stuff gets pretty hard to explain in docs though ;p
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06:59 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/cK6Hiw
06:59 good_news_everyone mojo/master e950d36 Sebastian Riedel: pass can be called without arguments
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07:17 tempire huh
07:17 tempire is there no active channel for mango?
07:18 tempire guess it's here.
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08:58 cpan_mojo Mojo-IRC 0.0501 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-IRC-0.0501
09:04 cpan_mojo Mojo-Server-TCP 0.0201 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-Server-TCP-0.0201
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10:56 cpan_mojo Mojo-IRC 0.06 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-IRC-0.06
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13:12 jberger_ pass doesn't need begin(0)?
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13:20 jberger_ nm I get it
13:21 batman can i cancel events? this is what i'm currently doing: http://p.thorsen.pm/83c629d41ab2
13:22 batman cancel delay() based on a "master timeout" ^
13:22 batman not sure how to explain it... the paste will hopefully make it clearer
13:25 jberger_ Makes sense to me
13:26 batman is there a prettier way to do what i'm doing?
13:28 mst batman: whatever Mojo's equivalent of $future->cancel is
13:28 batman mst: right...that's what i'm asking about :)
13:29 mst I can't even understand that code, it just looks like more callback stupidity to me and I've been using futures too much
13:30 batman you don't understand the delay() part, or what i'm trying to do?
13:32 jberger_ batman, off the top of my head, no
13:32 batman the $obj->get() part is sending an irc message, and i have no idea if i'm getting a response or if i'm getting the response i want... irc is hard :/
13:32 batman jberger_: ok. thanks
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14:55 bpmedley jberger_: What do you think of http://liveperl.us?
14:56 jberger_ Haven't had a chance yet
14:58 batman it looks awful until you start running the tutorials
14:59 batman but the functionality is really cool
14:59 batman is it open source?
14:59 batman bpmedley: who made it?
14:59 bpmedley batman: https://github.com/brianmed/liveperl.us
14:59 batman Live code => should be a button. almost impossible to see :(
14:59 bpmedley I do need to work on aesthetics.
15:00 batman bpmedley++
15:00 batman could you document how to set it up?
15:00 batman i would really like to look at that :)
15:00 bpmedley https://github.com/brianmed/liveperl.us/blob/master/docker/Dockerfile  <-- That's the docker file
15:01 bpmedley Have you played with docker yet?
15:01 batman yeah. but not much. would like if you could write step 1: apt-get install docker; step 2: ...
15:02 bpmedley I'll try
15:02 batman :)
15:16 sri mst: because futures would be less callback stupidity? lol
15:17 mst sri: IME, yes :)
15:17 sri every step is pretty much equal to a ->then(sub {...})
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15:20 sri reducing the number of callbacks is not even the point of either imo, they are simply about flattening the pyramid of doom
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15:22 sri only way to really reduce the number is Coro atm... https://gist.github.com/kraih/6082061
15:23 bpmedley batman: https://github.com/brianmed/liveperl.us  <-- REAMDE.pod updated
15:24 batman "Create Dockerfile" <-- is that a comment or command?
15:24 bpmedley Did you view the file on github?
15:25 bpmedley Or, are you saying it shouldn't have a "$" in front of it?
15:25 batman i just read the README
15:25 batman comments usually have # infront...
15:26 batman bpmedley-0000001/mojolicious-tutorial <-- is this a base docker image you have created?
15:26 bpmedley Updated
15:26 batman sweet!
15:26 bpmedley No, the base image is in the Dockerfile
15:26 purl okay, bpmedley.
15:26 batman ok
15:30 bpmedley docker is really cool.  I'm going to integrate in my development workflows whenever possible.  Very lightweight and useful.
15:31 batman i agree. it's incredible powerful
15:36 sri in case anyone missed it, Mojo::IOLoop::Delay has a few new features https://github.com/kraih/mojo/compare/47d6eb2567510214a3b35b3e5807275a1979057c...e950d3668900312ebf044a6bf6477d46ed60dfc5
15:38 batman sri: nice! so i could just do $delay->remaining([]); then... would it be even nicer to do $delay->cancel; ?
15:39 batman $delay->pass(...) <3
15:39 batman or $delay->stop
15:40 sri more methods that modify ->remaining are an option for the future
15:40 batman ok
15:40 sri but for now i'd rather just wait and see what we really need
15:40 batman yup
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16:04 bpmedley batman: How is the site now?
16:05 bpmedley I removed the "Start" page and changed the main page to just be the Sections.  And now the output is in an iframe with a live code button.
16:06 batman bpmedley: i would drop the navbar completely
16:06 bpmedley Hrmm
16:07 batman focus on what is important. a navbar is only there to make things less complicated. you don't need it if the site is simple enough.
16:08 batman i really want to take this for a spin, but i need to finish remote avatar first. feels like i'm super close :(
16:09 batman btw: i suck at design. but i think i can make liveperl simpler...
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16:12 batman i would add a gargantic "start" button which takes you to the first tutorial
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16:13 bpmedley How is the main page now?
16:13 batman better
16:14 batman i kind of liked parts of your text though
16:14 bpmedley What do you think of the iframe piece?
16:14 batman which?
16:14 purl or handy, you maybe don't even need the 3 line shell script to wrap starman or in a tabbard wanted to mass. Ave in the middle of the "factory fresh" or "systems." or awesome! but i don't have the time to sit down as much with that one or how we'd likely address the issue of actually accessing args without @_ or the only sane thing you can possibly do, IMO
16:14 bpmedley When you run one of the tutorial sections.
16:15 batman i think it should be side by side and update automatically
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16:23 bpmedley Oh, I see, you think the iframe should be side-by-side with the code?
16:23 batman yeah. scrolling sucks :)
16:25 batman i would split the page in two. using full height to both input and output.
16:25 batman not sure if i would have the header at all... could be useful, but you could also move the comment inside the code.
16:40 * sri agrees completely with batman about the design
16:40 sri you want side by side, and a better landing page
16:41 sri i actually clicked on the perldoc link at the bottom first and ignored the manu bar
16:41 sri *menu
16:42 sri you want a big fat start button to get to the first tutorial and back/forward buttons to switch between them
16:42 sri back/forward buttons also showing the names of those tutorials
16:43 batman back/forward buttons: i agree
16:43 sri Save/live buttons confused me too...merge it into one big one... maybe Update, or Launch
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16:44 sri and have a little link next to it (no button) that says "open in new window"
16:44 batman remove them completely. do save when the user haven't typed anything in half a second
16:44 sri right
16:44 sri morbo picks up changes anyway
16:44 sri so you can save as often as you like
16:45 batman buttons sucks. it's so windows 1999.
16:45 batman err... s/1999//; :D
16:47 cpan_mojo Mojo-IRC 0.0601 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-IRC-0.0601
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17:08 iftekhar25 Is it possible to make morbo return the entire stack trace when it encounters a runtime error?
17:09 moritz PERL5OPT=-MCarp::Always morbo <yourscript>
17:09 moritz you need to have Carp::Always installed, ofr course
17:09 moritz *of
17:09 iftekhar25 Oh, neat.
17:10 moritz this works for pretty much any perl program
17:11 iftekhar25 Getting the top stack frame is often not so helpful, I'm pretty sure the bug is in my code, but morbo is pointing me out to Controller.pm code :-\
17:12 iftekhar25 moritz: Yeah, figured. morbo returns some pretty useful output otherwise.
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17:33 tempire steps idea: https://gist.github.com/tempire/9158614
17:42 bpmedley Sorry, I wasn't ignoring; I was working.. :)  What do ya'll think of the side-by-side.
17:43 tempire or https://gist.github.com/tempire/9158723
17:44 sri tempire: eww
17:45 sri i think we've reached the point where you might want to consider forking Mojo::IOLoop::Delay
17:47 sri concurrent steps is a total no-go for me
17:47 tempire because?
17:47 sri because it makes no sense
17:48 sri you can start as many non-blocking operations as you like in one step
17:49 mst concurrent steps is missing the point
17:49 mst it's a sequential process
17:49 mst if you want to fan out and back in you can
17:49 mst but steps are sequenced, parallelising them makes no sense
17:49 mst you'd go out of band with future based code as well
17:53 sri i think his goal might be to make parallel steps an entry point for separate code paths that can be stopped individually
17:53 sri but i don't see that working out, you're just building a new pyramid of doom
17:56 sri maybe what you really want is nested steps, hidden behind intermediate apis
17:57 sri ->steps(sub { ...$intermediate->this_one_is_really_three_steps($delay->begin)... }, ...)
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18:22 sri tempire: it would help if your examples made the intention more clear
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18:36 jberger_ Nested steps are really handy
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18:57 sri oh, perl 5.20 will finally optimize the return out of sub { return $foo }
19:08 jberger_ 5.20 is shaping up to be really awesome
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19:17 sri the fact that mojolicious uncovered a 5.19 optimization bug made me smile
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19:19 jberger_ Which one was that? The return optimization?
19:19 sri and/or operator in void context
19:19 bpmedley http://liveperl.us <-- Landing page update; layout tweaks; and autosave.  Thoughts?
19:19 sri trying to find it again.... and failing :S
19:20 sri bpmedley: much better!
19:20 bpmedley Thanks.. :)
19:21 sri missing open in new window link and forward/backward buttons though ;p
19:21 bpmedley What would the open in new window do?
19:21 bpmedley I just didn't have time for forward/backward, yet.
19:21 sri open the iframe in a new tab
19:22 bpmedley That's what the Live code link did..
19:22 bpmedley I guess that should have been clearer.
19:22 sri it was a button, that was wrong
19:22 sri imo
19:24 sri playing with this live in your browser is pretty amazing though http://liveperl.us/tutorial/websockets
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19:24 bpmedley I"m very impressed with docker + morbo integration.
19:25 sri i see mojibake in the editor though
19:26 bpmedley Hrmm.  I may need to update CodeMirror.
19:27 bpmedley Or my templates are off.  It's probably something I'm doing.  I'll try and fix.
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20:28 stephan48 bpmedley: might i ask you to add a noscript tag? :)
20:39 sri hmmmm... wonder how the built-in exception page should deal with croak regarding the context
20:41 sri perl -Ilib -Mojo -E 'a(sub { $_->rendr(text => "Ohoh!") })->start' daemon
20:41 sri an example for rather useless context
20:42 sri problem is, we generally use a SIG{__DIE__} to make a stacktrace, and generate context based on it, but when you use croak the error message is more correct than the trace
20:44 sri for croak that would be Carp.pm line 166 "sub croak   { die shortmess @_ }"
20:46 sri giving preference to files/lines extracted from the error message can result in a better context there, but breaks cases like this one https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/t/mojo/template.t#L1074
20:48 sri the core logic is here btw. https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/lib/Mojo/Exception.pm#L81
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21:43 sri i do have a patch that appears to make the croak case better
21:43 sri http://pastie.org/8759475
21:45 sri old http://i.imgur.com/fj2XkbK.png vs new http://i.imgur.com/XKwl9xM.png
21:45 sri notice the stack trace
21:45 * sri wonders which behavior is better
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21:52 bpmedley stephan48: Where?
21:52 stephan48 die liveperl.us
21:52 stephan48 -die
21:52 stephan48 i think on the second page(reachable via start)
21:53 bpmedley sri: From my perpsective, the second.
21:54 stephan48 jap the second looks better
21:54 stephan48 i had the problem myself some times
21:54 stephan48 it nice to debug this :)
21:54 sri looks "better" or also "more correct"
21:54 stephan48 more correct
21:54 stephan48 sorry
21:54 stephan48 better was the wrong term
21:55 * sri pokes jberger, tempire, marcus and crab
21:55 sri a subjective "better" is ok in this context too, but i'm more interested in getting it "correct"
21:56 tempire the second
21:56 purl the second is the original written by an american
21:56 tempire it's what the dev expects
21:56 tempire and more useful
21:56 bpmedley Visual inspection shows the common case for an error in 1/2 of the time.  Further,
21:56 purl i think more useful is to ask   Bool::True == 1
21:56 bpmedley woops
21:56 bpmedley I wasn't going to send that.. sorry.
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22:14 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/dJ7llw
22:14 good_news_everyone mojo/master 012773c Sebastian Riedel: improved Mojo::Exception context detection to better line up with user expectations
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22:35 stephan48 what ORM systems do you prefer in combination with Mojolicious(Full apps)?
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22:58 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih tagged v4.84 at a326cdb: http://git.io/Siel8g
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22:59 cpan_mojo Mojolicious 4.84 by Sebastian Riedel - http://metacpan.org/release/SRI/Mojolicious-4.84
23:10 sri bpmedley: "Unable to run image: bpmedley-13931105928594/mojolicious-tutorial"
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