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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-03-07

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Time Nick Message
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00:16 jberger__ crab sighting! !!
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00:40 * jberger__ jberger_
00:40 jberger_ I can irc
00:42 BenGoldberg If you couldn't irc, how would you be here?
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01:35 malicious ->pass is turning out to be hella useful
02:12 jberger malicious: agreed!
02:12 jberger <3 pass
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02:39 sri <3 pass too
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03:40 jberger can anyone offer some help here: http://stackoverflow.com/q/22103375/468327
03:41 jberger expire a session at an absolute time
03:41 sri ah, ECMA-404 also supports the new JSON RFC, and from what i hear crockford is behind this one http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-404.pdf
03:44 bpmedley jberger: $c->session(expiration => 120) ?
03:48 jberger yeah, but (s)he already has that, so I'm thinking I don't get it
03:49 bpmedley i ses "expires" and "default_expiration".  I do not see "expiratoin" in the stackoverflow query.
03:49 davido_ set expires to an absolute time, and store that time in some other session attribute so that it can be repeated on each request.
03:50 jberger bpmedley: oh you're right
03:51 bpmedley Doesn't expiration persist between requests?  What more do you need when you first set session?
03:51 davido_ ...since absolute times are only valid for one request.
03:51 davido_ http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Sessions#default_expiration
03:52 bpmedley davido_: Why not use expiration when first configuring the session?
03:53 davido_ Because the countdown starts over at (ex) 604800 on each reqeust.
03:54 davido_ ...no, I guess it doesn't. ;)
03:54 davido_ So expiration ought to work.
03:54 jberger One of you want to answer?
03:55 davido_ bp?
03:55 purl i think bp is paying her for it
03:55 jberger I'll do it if neither of you needs rep?
03:55 bpmedley I'm not sure I have an account.
03:55 davido_ j: go ahead.
03:55 sri there's always karma in the banana stand
03:56 davido_ but he has to be sure to set it only once, not on each subsequent request.
03:57 jberger banana stand?
03:58 sri you're not into arrested development? :O
04:03 jberger havent gotten there yet
04:03 davido_ It probably isn't necessary to do the check on each req. if the '/access' => sub {.... code isn't reached on each request.
04:03 jberger right, I badly phrased that
04:04 davido_ Since he's probably hitting "is_user_authenticated" in a bridge or something.
04:05 davido_ That edit seems clearer.
04:09 davido_ It's sometimes comical, the tags people put on questions on SO.  Is "timeout" really going to act as an aid to navigation and searchability?
04:09 jberger hehe
04:09 jberger yeah, and I like to edit the Perl tag onto the Mojolicious ones, since I don't know that too many people monitor the mojo one
04:10 jberger except for me :-)
04:10 davido_ even session is fairly ambiguous.
04:10 jberger it's my penance for not following the mailing list
04:10 davido_ That's a good idea.
04:11 davido_ At least as many wise individuals follow the 'mojolicious' tag, as lost individuals following the 'session' tag -- a term so general that it is also nearly useless as a nav-aid.
04:11 sri btw. there are still no mojolicious ideas on http://wiki.enlightenedperl.org/gsoc2014/ideas
04:12 jberger ok, what are some ideas?
04:12 purl some ideas are extremely lightweight to test out
04:12 davido_ lol... "Inline::CPP" infamous Perl namespace hack is on the top of the list of things to fix... nobody's ever sent me a message on it in any form.
04:13 davido_ (that's not my list)
04:13 bpmedley Hrrm.  Does perl need an automation configuration management answer?   Such as puppet / chef?
04:13 davido_ If Will is feverishly working on fixing it, you would think he might have forked the repo at least by now.
04:14 davido_ And when did it become notorious?  It wasn't even thought about through the 12 years of that module's existence until I documented it last year.
04:15 bpmedley A Mojolicious app as a home automation focal point would be cool.
04:15 sri are we really out of ideas? :o
04:15 sri mojolicious example apps of all kinds would be cool i suppose
04:15 bpmedley Using things like Nest apis.
04:15 sri blogs and stuff
04:17 jberger mojolicious based plugins for common web services?
04:18 bpmedley http://www.smarthome.com/2412N/SmartLinc-INSTEON-Central-Controller/p.aspx and http://www.leftovercode.info/smartlinc.html
04:18 davido_ The killer feature not found in many alternatives; The ability to craft non-blocking web apps.
04:19 jberger i liked my Mojo::FriendFeed even if it was a port of an AnyEvent module
04:20 bpmedley Possibly using PAR-Packer to create an executable for Windows, Linux, and OS X
04:20 bpmedley So, a Mojolicious app for home automation that can be installed and executed with one binary.
04:21 jberger I have a local script which uses Mojolicious to interact with trainingpeaks.com
04:22 bpmedley Thoughts on the home automation app?
04:23 jberger bpmedley: is there some prior art to build on, seems like a big task for a greenfield project
04:23 bpmedley How long do they have?
04:23 sri this is for students, keep it simple
04:23 bpmedley https://lockitron.com/  <-- A mojo app to unlock / lock the door?
04:24 jberger bpmedley: that's why I suggested plugins/modules for currently available webservices/apis
04:25 bpmedley https://api.lockitron.com/v1/getting_started/authenticating_with_api_key  <-- See the curl example?
04:26 jberger I see that MetaCPAN is pushing hard, what about a Mojolcious+MetaCPAN plugin
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04:29 bpmedley jberger: What would the plugin do?
04:30 jberger build and execute queries, in a nonblocking fashion
04:31 jberger essentially a port of this: https://metacpan.org/pod/MetaCPAN::API
04:31 sri problem is that stuff needs to be maintained
04:31 jberger yeah
04:31 sri those students don't stick around usually
04:32 jberger actually a successor/improvements to Galileo might be nice
04:32 jberger deployable Mojolcious apps in general
04:32 jberger or hell, making Galileo prettier
04:33 sri just example apps, blog, shop, forum, cms...
04:33 sri "port Ghost to mojolicious" :D
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04:34 sri https://ghost.org/ # this is the kind of app that sells a language
04:34 sri of course too much for a student
04:35 jberger right, but without too much work, Galileo could be forked to do that
04:35 jberger it already has markdown editor and preview etc
04:35 sri point is, the programming stuff is very simple, if they have design chops we could get real value out of it
04:35 bpmedley One app could be: allowing temporary guest access to unlock your door for a party then revoke access automatically when the event is over.
04:36 sri bpmedley: what's the fascination with unlocking doors?
04:36 sri do you have free samples of those doorlocks?
04:37 bpmedley I'm not fasicinated by it.. :)  It's a piece of hardware with a very straightforward api.  Also, X10 and friends are available.
04:37 sri it sounds absolutely terrible if you don't have access to the hardware
04:38 bpmedley Right, they would need some hardware.
04:39 sri jberger: "Make Galileo pretty."
04:39 jberger I have finally conceeded that I suck at front-end design
04:40 sri sadly it is very rare that ugly apps get popular
04:40 jberger right, that's the problem
04:41 jberger I think that Mojolicious allows for CPAN deployable apps that could really put Perl back on the map
04:41 jberger non-blocking (read: high performance) and easy to deploy
04:41 jberger now it just needs the sexy
04:42 jberger Galileo was a first attempt at that, and I learned a lot, but it has some drawbacks
04:43 jberger DBIC being the biggest
04:43 sri your chance to get a motivated student with design chops ;)
04:43 jberger it's blocking, and I attempted (almost successfully) to support all DBs that it supports, which is a bit of a nightmare
04:44 jberger that's why I'm excited about Mandel
04:44 jberger design chops would be excellent
04:49 jberger Oh how I wish there was a CPAN deployable MongoDB like there is a SQLite
04:50 jberger could be an Alien module or similar
04:51 jberger that could be a project too!
04:58 sri "add a blocking API to Mandel"
04:59 sri so it can be a hybrid like Mango
04:59 jberger yeah, it needs that still
04:59 sri jberger: compiling mongodb is actually hard
05:00 jberger yeah, I'm seeing that
05:00 sri they distribute it with binary packages usually
05:00 * sri doesn't mind his TEST_ONLINE=mongodb://... pattern too much
05:01 sri there's also https://metacpan.org/pod/Test::mongod now though
05:01 jberger I saw that
05:02 jberger Moose based, not even Moo
05:02 jberger pretty heavy for testing
05:03 jberger but testing isn't completely what I mean
05:03 jberger because Galileo can use SQLite, literally all you need to do to have a functioning Galileo is cpanm Galileo
05:04 jberger it would be cool if that were available for Mongo
05:04 jberger then again, deploying a mongod instance from a prebuilt binary is probably easier than setting up an SQL database
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05:06 jberger actually a port of Test::mongod wouldn't be too hard
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05:10 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/602 # i expect this to be a tough one
05:14 sri or actually... it's a clear -1
05:15 sri XML mode is for XML
05:15 jberger we have done very little sub HTML5 support for HTML
05:15 jberger I remember I had to convince you to tweak the way it parses comments to allow for HTML4 comment parsing
05:16 jberger so, I don't see any reason to support XHTML
05:16 sri especially in XML mode
05:16 sri XHTML is not the same as XML
05:17 jberger right, and neither is HTML5, so I don't think its our problem :-P
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06:25 * malicious turns over a new leaf
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07:44 batman https://github.com/jhthorsen/mojolicious-plugin-bootstrap # comments?
07:46 sri i was about to question the usefulness... but then i saw the assetpack integration :)
07:46 batman :)
07:47 batman i'm sick of including bootstrap as a submodule in my project.
07:47 batman i should probably rename it to mojolicious-plugin-bootstrap3
07:48 * batman will do that now
07:48 sri yea, otherwise you get the same problem we had with jquery in core
07:49 batman yup. just realized that :)
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07:51 * batman will release Mojolicious::Plugin::Bootstrap3 soon
07:55 batman https://github.com/jhthorsen/mojolicious-plugin-bootstrap3 # since i deleted the other repo
08:01 crab what does it do?
08:01 batman it doesn't say? :(
08:01 batman then i need to fix the pod
08:02 * crab is duly chastised
08:02 batman chastised?
08:02 batman do you know what (twitter) bootstrap is?
08:02 sri he gets it now
08:02 * batman is confused
08:03 crab batman: i have a slow network connection. i asked while waiting for the page to load, which took a long time.
08:03 crab of course, once it loaded...
08:03 batman oh! i see.
08:05 sri interesting parallel test thread on p5p... bottleneck for parallel tests could be the aggregation process... which explains why j9 is pretty much always the best choice
08:05 sri (TAP aggregation that is)
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08:34 batman what is tap aggregation?
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08:59 sri do we have to rename Mojo::DOM::HTML? https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/602#issuecomment-36978237
09:08 batman i absolutely hate xhtml.
09:08 batman it's stupid.
09:08 batman i don't get #602 :(
09:09 batman Mojo::DOM::HTML minimizes empty script tag at rendering phase <-- don't get what this means
09:09 sri <foo />
09:09 sri <script />
09:09 batman turns into...?
09:10 sri that is minimized
09:10 sri as opposed to <script></script>
09:10 batman ah! instead of <script></script> you get <script /> ?
09:10 batman right.
09:10 batman so what's the issue again..?
09:10 sri funny thing is, his original complaint is about browsers using an HTML5 parser
09:11 sri otherwise <script /> should be perfectly valid XHTML
09:11 batman xhtml has always been broken, and will probably always be...
09:11 batman seen from a browser's perspective ^
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09:18 sri hmm
09:20 sri rereading the XML spec... a different change might be worth it though
09:20 sri never generating the shorthand form in XML mode
09:21 sri <foo /> and <foo></foo> are equal if the element has been declared EMPTY in the DTD
09:21 sri while <foo /> is invalid if the element has not been declared EMPTY in the DTD
09:22 moritz I dimly recall some browsers not liking <script />
09:22 sri no wait
09:22 sri the XHTML spec got that wrong... WTF
09:22 sri "Empty-element tags may be used for any element which has no content, whether or not it is declared using the keyword EMPTY."
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09:23 sri "In SGML-based HTML 4 certain elements were permitted to omit the end tag; with the elements that followed implying closure. XML does not allow end tags to be omitted. All elements other than those declared in the DTD as EMPTY must have an end tag. Elements that are declared in the DTD as EMPTY can have an end tag or can use empty element shorthand."
09:23 moritz "we are a subset of XML, but in this particular case we are a superset"
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09:25 batman makes perfect sense.............
09:25 batman :)
09:25 sri are those statement conflicting or just confusing use of terminology?
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09:27 batman sounds like you can declare it explicit NOT empty..?
09:27 batman if that is the case, it's not in conflict imo
09:29 sri "XML does not allow end tags to be omitted." is very confusing... it has to cover <foo /> and <foo></foo>
09:29 sri maybe it means <foo> is not allowed
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09:36 sri closing the issue
09:38 batman sri++
09:39 batman i wonder how i can make assetpack track changes in included files.
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09:39 batman sucks big time that if i change one of the depending sass-files, assetpack will not generate a new md5
09:42 sri the change to only generate start/end tags instead of empty tag shorthand is still on the table though
09:42 sri if someone can bring up good enough arguments
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09:52 nicomen sri: correct <foo> not allowed, html allows it :-(
09:53 sri that wasn't the question
09:53 nicomen you said, "maybe", just verifying
09:53 punter I was told <foo/> is exactly equivalent to <foo></foo>. On top of that, it looks neater. So should keep I think
09:54 sri nicomen: there is more context
09:54 sri the question is what "XML does not allow end tags to be omitted." covers exactly
09:55 sri like <foo />
09:55 punter It's <foo/> by the way, in XML. We only put a space in HTML to help the browsers I think
09:56 sri we have 3 cases <foo>, <foo></foo> and <foo />
09:57 sri punter: incorrect, the XML spec uses <foo /> in its examples
09:57 sri the space being optional is correct though, but not relevant
09:58 nicomen so, I think the text is clear, xml does not allow omitting end tags, wether or not the end tag is written out completely or using the self-closing short-hand is irrelevant.
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09:59 nicomen BUT, I believe you are asking also what should be written out. my opinion after working with several XML/HTML libs over the years is that I prefer libraries that keep as much of the original formatting as possible, unless I ask it to explitly use shorthand where possible or always keep them explitly verbose
09:59 punter sri: In the spec there's only one case of "space/>" and many more cases of plain "/>": http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
09:59 nicomen another question also is wether to apply the rules of SGML/HTML to add a closing tag where it should be..
10:00 sri anyway, i think everything we do is correct... and should the topic come up again... i'll stay out of it ;p
10:02 sri my head hurts :/
10:05 crab </head>
10:05 bc547_ :-)
10:06 nicomen <head />
10:06 punter <head/>
10:07 nicomen this is not that bad though, HTML comments are more fun ;)
10:08 nicomen <!-- comment -- not a comment any more -- start comment again -->
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11:22 odc > Can't locate object method "next_tick" via package "Mojo::IOLoop"
11:22 odc how is this possible?
11:34 sri "XML is what you do to a sysadmin if waterboarding him would get you fired."
11:34 sri :D
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11:38 spoot I've upgraded from 4.66 to 4.87 and now my app is not returning any http responses
11:39 spoot This is what I'm seeing in the logs http://pastebin.com/AVmATWvB
11:40 odc spoot, do you use a plugin for loggin?
11:40 odc g
11:40 spoot do you mean user logins?
11:41 odc nope, messages logging
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11:41 odc but no i see you don't
11:41 sri odc: upgrade
11:42 odc i have the same error, but i thought it was because of MojoX::Log::Log4perl
11:42 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/Changes#L16
11:43 spoot odc: have you been able to solve your error?
11:43 odc thx sri
11:44 odc spoot, not yet, i'm looking into it. I'm gonna try without any plugin
11:44 spoot Actually I do use a Log plugin
11:45 marty spoot:  are you sure you use of app->log->history is correct?   https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojo::Log
11:45 sri MojoX::Log::Log4perl doesn't subclass Mojo::Log
11:46 sri that's not very future proof
11:46 spoot marty: yes, that's a cut-n-paste from the logs
11:46 odc sri, yup, i've submitted a bug report
11:46 odc maybe i'll write a patch myself if i have the time
11:46 spoot I'm not using MojoX::Log::Log4perl
11:46 sri if he had subclasses Mojo::Log then we would have a fallback in place
11:47 spoot App works on laptop running 4.66, broken on production server with 4.87
11:47 spoot I might just downgrade on the server
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11:47 sri spoot: your installation is broken
11:47 sri new exception page, old Log.pm
11:48 spoot sri: thanks for the diagnoses
11:48 spoot how do I fix it?
11:49 sri start fresh
11:49 spoot gah
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11:49 spoot that'll take a while :-(
11:50 spoot but if that what it takes I'll blow my perlbrew away and start over...
11:50 sri you could try fixing it manually, but nobody can help you with that
11:52 spoot Can you say what is the latest version of Mojo after 4.66 that should still work?
11:53 sri i don't understand the question
11:54 sri mojolicious is perfectly fine, *your* installation is broken somehow, you must have done something wrong
11:55 spoot my app works on 4.66 -> broken on 4.87. Somewhere in between a new exception page was introduced that is incompatible with my installation. Can you say the version the new exception page appeared?
11:55 sri very very wrong, since it is pretty hard to end up with files from multiple mojolicious versions
11:57 spoot Looks like 4.84
11:57 sri if your perlbrew is still kinda working you could try "cpanm -U Mojolicious; cpanm Mojolicious"
12:00 spoot what's the -U option?
12:00 purl the -U option is discussed in man perlrun
12:01 spoot Doesn't work for me. get 'unknown option U'
12:02 spoot I'm going to go off and try and fix this, at least I know where I'm looking now
12:06 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/603 # this seems unfixable, maybe we should leave it open indefinitely
12:07 sri in case someone has an idea
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12:46 sri damn, i fixed it
12:46 sri and it unbelievably ugly
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12:52 sri http://pastie.org/8889602 # the patch
12:53 sri http://pastie.org/8889604 # this is what templates look like afterwards though
12:53 sri a visible magical comment
12:54 marty haha.  even your ugly code looks better than my pretty code.  :/
12:54 moritz we have   if ($user_id == $user_id_of_CEO) { ... } stuff hard-coded in some code here :-)
12:55 marty lol
12:55 marty that's called sanity checking
12:55 moritz (not because of his role as CEO, but because he likes some weird user interfaces; for everybody else we'd tell them to fuck off, but we can't say that to the CEO :-)
12:59 sri i'm mostly worried about visible magical comments in templates
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13:02 sri (visible with MOJO_TEMPLATE_DEBUG=1)
13:03 moritz I'm not worried about that. When you debug stuff, you care about internals, by defintion
13:05 batman moritz: i would tell the ceo to fuck off as well :)
13:05 batman but that's just me...
13:06 moritz batman: well, it's mood dependent; sometimes that's possible (politely), sometimes it isn't
13:07 batman hehe... well, i don't care much anymore. guess i should change working environment to calm down :P
13:09 moritz batman: need job as Perl programmer in .de? we're hiring! :-)
13:10 moritz (perl or python) and sql and js/jquery, for a medium-sized ISP
13:11 batman thanks, but i think i'm sticking around here for a while longer...
13:11 batman i want to know how long i last and which impact i can make before leaving i guess
13:15 sri hmmm... i could use this to make the generated perl code on the exception page prettier
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13:25 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/7RPlUA
13:25 good_news_everyone mojo/master ae158f2 Sebastian Riedel: fixed comment on last line bug in Mojo::Template (closes #603)
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13:26 sri now you can even see two magical comments ;p
13:27 sri http://pastie.org/8889691 # what a template looks like now
13:30 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-Bootstrap3 3.1001 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojolicious-Plugin-Bootstrap3-3.1001
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13:42 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ooogqw
13:42 good_news_everyone mojo/master 917408b Sebastian Riedel: improved Mojo::Server::Daemon to handle setuid/setgid errors more gracefully
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14:15 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/rbtI-g
14:15 good_news_everyone mojo/master a1bf14c Sebastian Riedel: fixed punctuation
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14:24 jberger_ batman++
14:31 Dandre hello,
14:31 Dandre I am trying ojo. How can I send authentification credentials?
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14:49 Dandre ok found. I had to escape @ character, Sorry
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14:53 batman Thanks jberger_. I don't think rails should have all the fun :)
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16:53 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/0kVirQ
16:53 good_news_everyone mojo/master cfc9198 Sebastian Riedel: handle setuidgid errors consistently
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17:13 dvinciguerra is there any way to put two mojo app in same config files to use in the hypnotoad?
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17:30 good_news_everyone [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ieKn9g
17:30 good_news_everyone mojo/master 408973f Sebastian Riedel: small optimizations
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17:31 batman dvinciguerra: not sure what you're asking about, but maybe https://metacpan.org/release/Toadfarm can solve it?
17:35 dvinciguerra ohoho thanks batman
17:35 dvinciguerra its looks good!
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17:37 bpmedley dvinciguerra: Also, you can use the Mount plugin.
17:39 batman dvinciguerra: thanks. let me know about missing features and/or bugs :)
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17:52 dvinciguerra bpmedley: thanks, I will read about it! ;-)
17:52 dvinciguerra batman: ok!
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18:11 bjoernfan bpmedley: Just skimmed through the backlog, and if you want something like puppet in Perl you might want to look at Rex. Never used it myself though.
18:14 crab i like ansible, but it's not in perl
18:18 bpmedley bjoernfan: Thx
18:19 bjoernfan bpmedley: Let me know what you think if you look into it. :)
18:19 bjoernfan crab: Yeah, that's what I use myself.
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