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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-09-29

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01:37 sri i see redis more as a global namespace for variables shared between multiple servers :)
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03:02 robo-burgers so uh
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04:04 robo-burgers hows the mojo?
04:10 preaction it's working
04:10 purl Lower the brain!
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09:21 Akron I though everybody is using redis only for caching, sessions and pubsub - not as a db ... And I'm quite excited about what sri will come up with in the RDBMS world.
09:24 Nei https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6821152
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12:45 batman sri: would you give the Mandel namespace away on CPAN? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mojolicious/iGwdEeOysN4
12:46 batman s!Mandel!Mango!
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12:52 sri batman: i don't know
12:52 batman ok
12:53 batman (i think it would be pretty awesome if you would)
12:54 sri who would i give it to?
12:55 batman not sure, but olivier duclos is the first who has raised his voice. (from google groups)
12:55 sri you know and trust olivier?
12:56 sri as in, you'd vouch for him?
12:57 batman no, but i don't i would care if i was abandoning the project
12:57 batman i think i would wait a bit and have a look at what he's doing though
12:57 batman if it's awful, then i don't think i would give it away
13:00 sri you're contradicting yourself there
13:00 batman yeah i know. i'm also missing out of a couple of words in the first sentence ....
13:01 batman "but i don't think i would care" # (think)
13:01 batman what i'm saying is that i would like to see any project live on
13:02 batman ...but at the same time, i wouldn't like to see my code turned into something awful.
13:02 batman awful = subjective, of course :)
13:02 sri had there been bigger contributors to Mango in the first place, it would be much easier
13:03 batman good point
13:03 purl nice and sharp
13:04 sri anyway, if a fork turns out to be really good i'll consider it
13:04 batman thanks :)
13:05 sri the linked fork is missing a lot though
13:05 odc batman, sri, olivier duclos is me
13:05 odc and i'm paid to keep mango alive
13:05 batman aha :)
13:05 batman odc: i was hoping we could just have a chat behind your back ;)
13:05 batman hehe
13:05 odc so yes, eventually, i'd also like to steal the Mango namespace :)
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13:06 batman odc: but you can't.
13:06 batman you need sri's "blessing"
13:06 odc erf
13:06 batman as in you need sri to give you access to the namespace in pause
13:06 odc right
13:06 odc i'm in no hurry
13:06 odc we still have time before mongo 2.8
13:06 batman odc: a good bribe could help... ;)
13:07 odc hmm
13:07 odc sri> the linked fork is missing a lot though
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13:08 odc could you give me some hints of what should i do?
13:08 sri update docs and protocol version checks and stuff
13:08 sri if you decide to go 2.8 only
13:14 odc sri, yes i was planning to do that last
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13:25 markov [newbee question] is there a way to configure that using an existing static directory results into the delivery of the file index.html from that directory, as any webserver does?  Or do I need to add a route for each directory?
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13:26 Nei maybe a before_dispatch hook or so
13:27 Nei or I saw a  Mojolicious::Plugin::Directory on cpan
13:31 sri interesting how all my sources inside mongodb inc now say the company is basically anti open source
13:32 sri as in, the lack of accessible information about changes is intentional
13:33 markov :: Plugin:: Directory produces directory indexes, which is a different trick.
13:33 odc yeah, exploring jira is fun ^^
13:33 odc i think my best source of info will be to watch MongoDB.pm
13:34 sri there's apparently a secret driver project in jira that always lists all upcoming driver changes
13:34 odc o.O
13:34 sri shared with all drivers
13:34 odc what's its name?
13:35 sri it's secret
13:35 sri internal use only
13:35 bc547 ! http://m.memegen.com/tshqmn.jpg :-)
13:36 odc i typed 'secret' in the search box but it doesn't really help >_>
13:38 sri david golden promised they would make that jira project public at some point
13:38 sri he promised it in secret though...
13:38 sri on a google group started in april... that was promised to be made public as well
13:39 odc hm
13:40 * sri might slowly be turning into a mongodb hater
13:40 * odc tries to stay away from politics
13:56 * genio shakes his fist at bash!
13:56 genio I'm tired of patching all these servers, people
13:58 odc genio, you're using centos/redhat?
14:04 sri hahahaha... is cloudflare a front for the nsa?
14:04 Nei ssshh dont tell anyone
14:04 genio odc: lots and lots of them, yes
14:05 odc ouch
14:05 * odc suggests genio to replace bash by mksh on all his servers
14:06 sri seriously... that new free ssl certs for everyone initiative can't be explained any other way
14:07 sri yea, lets just keep everything between the cloudflare servers and the actual web servers unencrypted
14:07 genio PFS and no problem
14:07 sri NOOOO
14:07 genio oh, between cloudflare and the actual web servers is still a problem
14:08 genio They terminate the SSL connection and talk to the actual web server over clear text?
14:08 sri ye
14:08 genio well, that's just pure poop
14:11 genio sign up for a new AWS account with your_email+something@gmail.com and use their free tier for 1 year.  then sign up for a new account under +something_else etc
14:14 genio use https://www.startssl.com/ and you've got yourself a free cert.  free hosting, free cert.
14:15 Nei ssl is flawed
14:16 genio There's always got to be some level of trust.  I can't think of a better suggestion than SSL
14:24 * mst is quite seriously considering switching to mksh
14:25 genio I haven't read about/looked into mksh at all.  We have lots of bash build scripts that would need to be tested in the event of a change though
14:25 Nei theres also oksh
14:26 Nei for now I'll stick with zsh;)
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14:29 odc mksh is not the most usr-friendly shell, but when it comes to security and correctness, it's the best
14:29 odc the author is a real maniac
14:29 odc (he's german too)
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14:32 Nei sri and mlehman are german too right
14:33 mst genio: I've always written my scripts to POSIX sh
14:33 mst genio: I'd consider a build script being bash-specific to be an HR problem :)
14:33 Nei I've always written my scripts in perl. err
14:35 genio mst: I don't disagree with that sentiment, but the situation is, well, fun (if ya ain't got nothin' nice to say) around here.
14:36 mst yeah
14:37 mst I had to maintain a project once that was a mixture of sh, csh, bash and perl scripts
14:37 mst a little over 200 of them
14:37 mst with a top-level Makefile that was -supposed- to run them all in the right order but didn't work
14:37 sri genio: startssl is free until you need to revoke your cert
14:38 genio I'm still dealing with 1990s Perl CGI scripts that they won't give me time to rewrite, but I keep having to fix them.
14:38 genio sri: ahhh, I didn't know they made you pay to revoke a cert.  :/
14:41 Nei aha, they're collecting exploits @ https://github.com/mubix/shellshocker-pocs/blob/master/README.md
14:41 tianon or, you know, https://blog.cloudflare.com/introducing-universal-ssl/
14:42 genio either way, happy birthday to me today.
14:44 sri tianon: ARGH! that's how the discussion started
14:45 tianon :)
14:45 * tianon saves sri the trouble and lights the fire
14:46 tianon ????
14:46 Nei nice fire
14:47 * tianon burns
14:47 sri tianon: cloudflare does not give you a cert to use between cloudflare servers and your own servers!
14:48 sri so you only get encryption between the browser and cloudflare servers
14:48 Nei obviously the only way cloudfare could work is by decrypting the traffic
14:49 sri which is why i assumed cloudflare might be an nsa front
14:49 Nei but they give you an option to transmit between cloudflare and your server with ssl if you want
14:49 sri but then it's not free
14:49 tianon sri: yeah :(
14:49 sri which is the whole selling point
14:50 genio again, free AWS tier, Nginx front with mod_security for nginx and the core rule set, communicating with hypnotoad on localhost in the clear
14:50 Nei cant have everything for free
14:50 sri the sad thing is this kinda bullshit keeps the "you can get ssl certs for free" meme alive :(
14:50 sri which delays revamping the CA system further...
14:54 batman sri: /list is back. *enjoy*
14:54 sri \o/
14:54 Nei seriously who needs list
15:00 sri seriously, you're already in #mojo, what else do you need? :)
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15:24 sri Akron: don't expect too much from my RDBMS work btw. i'm specifically trying to keep it minimalistic
15:25 sri my goal is only a tiny wrapper around DBD::Pg that makes non-blocking easier, and somethign for migrations
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15:28 marty sri:  If things change with the MongoDB situation please let me know and I'll do what I can.
15:29 marty So sad to see 10gen go that route, but, oh well.
15:30 sri at this point i think hell would have to freeze over for things to change
15:32 sri in the private google group i see empty promises that have been made before... and from private sources i hear things will only get worse
15:32 sri (private sources as in people working there not actually speaking for the company)
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15:33 sri in my opinion 3rd party drivers are dead
15:35 marty Hmmm, Larry Ellison decides to retire and 10gen starts to act like it was bought by Oracle.  Coincidence?  I think NOT!  :P
15:36 sri mongodb wants to become oracle
15:36 odc it's for your own good!
15:37 sri as much as i liked the mongodb api, investing into postgresql feels a lot better, since there's absolutely no uncertainty about its future
15:39 marty Postgres has also made some nice improvements lately.
15:39 sri experiencing something like this first hand really makes you reconsider how to think about big projects backed by companies
15:40 marty Yep.
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15:41 sri especially with AGPL projects, mongodb might as well be closed source
15:42 marty After 3 years of working with MongoDb  I find that about 80% of my data looks relational anyway.   So I'd prolly convert that.  It's that other 20% that causes so much grief when trying to force it into an rdbms.
15:43 sri jsonb looks pretty good for that
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15:44 sri looks like postgresql 9.4 is only a few weeks away
15:46 chankey dom->find('h2 > a')->text; gives me text inside <a> tag. How can I get href value? dom->find('h2 > a')->{href} doesn't work.
15:47 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo/DOM#find
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15:51 * sri like the (??) thing DBIx::Simple does for placeholders
15:51 sri wonder if that already goes too far regarding no SQL generation
15:52 sri $db->query('INSERT INTO foo VALUES (??)', 'bar', 'baz', 'yada')
15:53 sri (??) getting replaced with (?, ?, ?), depending on the number of arguments
15:54 sri guess better placeholder syntax might be ok
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15:55 marty so that would be for an array only?
15:55 marty array of values I mean
15:55 sri no, list of values
15:55 marty ok
15:56 sri only expands (??) to a list of placeholders for the number of arguments passed to ->query()
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16:03 sri and everyday i stumble over a new quality article about postgres http://blog.lostpropertyhq.com/postgres-full-text-search-is-good-enough/#1
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16:04 sri my SQL is really weak... TIL you can do bulk inserts with VALUES (...), (...), (...);
16:05 sri (hope nobody minds me mentioning these postgres noob topics all the time now ;p)
16:08 sri some of those operators still freak me out @@, @>, <@, ?>, <?
16:09 odc quite perlish eh
16:09 mst sri: INSERT RETURNING is also awesome
16:10 mst INSERT .... RETURNING id; # no need for ->last_insert_id bullshit
16:10 mst then you can use WITH to do more than one
16:10 mst e.g. WITH foo AS INSERT ... RETURNING id, INSERT INTO bar (foo_id) VALUES (foo.id)
16:11 mst (not exactly correct syntax but basically that works)
16:12 sri oh, that's pretty nifty
16:14 mst DBIC uses INSERT RETURNING to get SERIAL column values without a second query
16:14 marty Those are nice.  I always hated hitting the DB twice to get the last insert value.
16:16 nicomen I've heard people say that you should not rely on the db counter for ids
16:17 nicomen I never listened, will I survive?
16:21 mst nicomen: what?
16:22 mst define 'rely on the db counter for ids'
16:22 nicomen that one should pre-generate id's to avoid collissions or something like that
16:24 nicomen I suspect it was mostly because postgresql lacked, (and oracle still lacks?) an easy way to add auto-increment fields.
16:25 nicomen I guess it makes sense with more than one master setups
16:26 mst um
16:26 mst ok, so
16:26 mst this is basically people being fucking stupid
16:27 mst postgresql still doesn't have auto-increment fields
16:27 nicomen note, at the time I was a lazy mysql user, and they were rdbms connaiseurs
16:27 mst auto-increment is a hack for databases without proper sequences
16:27 mst once you have sequences you can build something equivalent to auto-inc quite easily
16:27 mst there are cases where relying on it is bad
16:27 mst consider, for example, a multi-row insert
16:27 nicomen setting up a serial table and link it to a field, with its triggers, is still much more easy now, than 10 years ago
16:27 mst you can only get the -last- id
16:28 mst via the auto-inc style tooling
16:28 nicomen yeah, I was going to ask how you resolved that with the previous examples
16:28 mst whereas if you pre-selected N ids from the sequence
16:28 mst you'd now have all the ids
16:28 mst however INSERT ... RETURNING id also works fine in that case
16:28 mst since a multi-row insert will RETURNING multiple rows
16:29 nicomen ah
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16:29 mst so, basically, sequences are often more powerful but require a bit more thinking
16:29 mst (although if you're using DBIx::Class it'll do the SELECT nextval() for you, making sequences as trivial to use on oracle as AUTO_INCREMENT is on mysql)
16:30 nicomen nextval() will never return the same value?
16:30 mst er, no, of course not, that's the entire point of a sequence
16:31 mst nextval() returning the same value would be equivalent to an AUTO_INCREMENT column ending up with a duplicate in it
16:31 mst it'd be broken by definition
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16:31 nicomen heh, ok, I thought some of those nextval() were like that
16:33 mst if your thing for generating unique values returns the same value twice
16:33 mst it's broken
16:33 mst I dunno how you ever imagined anything else :)
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17:13 Akron sri: If you have a nice Mojo compatible async Database connector, I may drop it into my DBIx::Oro with callbacks and will be happy. :)
17:19 mst no such module on CPAN
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17:23 Akron mst: ?
17:23 mst DBIx::Oro <- nonexistant
17:24 Akron It is - it's just still dev.
17:24 mst so there is, as yet, no such module on CPAN
17:24 mst this is fine. I was just pointing it out in case you'd typo'ed or something
17:24 Akron http://search.cpan.org/~akron/DBIx-Oro-0.30_5/
17:25 Akron It may however stay that way. As there are enough similar modules out there.
17:26 Akron metacpan doesn't show dev releases on search - may be that's the reason?
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17:29 mst Akron: sigh
17:30 mst all I mentioned that for was "there is no module of that name indexed, is it a private module (in which case you should probably have linked the repo) or did you typo the name (in which case this is a way to correct the typo)@
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17:30 mst this isn't a problem, and it doesn't need a reason
17:32 Akron Sure, but there is a module of that name indexed (as dev).
17:32 mst no, there isn't
17:32 mst please don't confuse cpansearch.org with being anything to do with cpan
17:33 mst there's no such thing as 'indexed as dev'
17:33 Akron Ah. Okay. Now I get it. Sorry.
17:33 mst dev releases are not indexed by PAUSE
17:33 Akron You are right, sorry.
17:33 mst cpansearch.org makes shit up using closed source code that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't
17:33 mst since I can't tell why it broke, I ignore it :)
17:34 Akron :)
17:34 mst anyway, like I say I was mostly just going "did you not release it yet or did you typo the name", and it appears the answer is the former, and that's totally fine
17:35 Akron Yes. And thank you for reminding me cpan != cpansearch. I am always confused by that.
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17:37 sri haha
17:38 sri that's a fun fact i only noticed after uploading a dozen or so Mango releases
17:39 sri there used to be a Mango module before but it only had dev releases, so it never popped up when i was searching for names on pause, and i just got first-come
17:39 Akron Oh - yeah, I remember that.
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19:08 sri btw. i'd like to hear all the postgresql protips folks here might have to share ;)
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19:46 XyzBoot754 Need to take down an internet connection ? Crash a CS or TS Server ? Check out www.booter.xyz the best stresser out there ! Power Proof - http://i.imgur.com/Fk3QZg7.png Youtube Video -  http://youtu.be/KMPjwnB-pXY
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19:50 XyzBoot754 Need to take down an internet connection ? Crash a CS or TS Server ? Check out www.booter.xyz the best stresser out there ! Power Proof - http://i.imgur.com/Fk3QZg7.png Youtube Video -  http://youtu.be/KMPjwnB-pXY
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20:19 dparry I'm trying to figure out the best mechanism to use to persist state across requests in memory in perl and I'm thinking maybe the ioloop event timers or possibly a cache plugin? Any pointers appreciated?!
20:20 sri redis
20:21 dparry I'd like to keep it pure perl as this would be installed on to individual nodes and I'd like to keep the technology to a minimum but I take your point
20:22 mst Cache::FileCache perhaps
20:23 dparry is that persisting out to disk or can that work in memory mst?
20:23 dparry I guess I'd be happy with a perl hash or multiple hashes in memory that are read only in all individual requests with some means to update them
20:24 mst why are you insisting on 'in memory' ?
20:24 mst if you want to share data between processes without needing clever shit, then that's what the filesystem is *for*
20:25 dparry because this needs to have negligible performance impact on the node it is residing on and if you mention file system access people get twitchy
20:25 Nei there probably is a ipc shm module? memcached?
20:25 mst if you want multi-process shared data you need either shared memory type stuff (so not pure perl)
20:26 mst or you need an external daemon, which I guess you could write in pure perl and deploy at the same time
20:26 mst or you need to use some space in /tmp
20:26 mst which on most systems these days is a tmpfs, i.e. it's already in memory
20:27 mst so from where I'm sitting, your choices are "hilariously overcomplicated and fragile", "use the disk", or "not pure perl"
20:27 mst well, "use the filesystem"
20:27 mst dparry: hang on
20:27 mst dparry: is this basically session data?
20:28 mst dparry: if so, why not use an encrypted cookie? ... (still not pure perl, admittedly)
20:28 mst also, by 'pure perl' did you mean "only deploying perl" or "no XS modules" ?
20:28 mst because we normally mean the latter by that
20:30 dparry essentially I want to fetch a bunch of external data every minute, process it and update some results that are then fetchable via a UI
20:31 dparry so, currently I fork a bunch of processes when I start mojo and have them do the crunching and I was wondering how to write the data back into mojo
20:31 dparry I could write out the data or diffs into files in /tmp and read them in...
20:32 dparry but then I was wondering if I should use event loops instead of forks and potentially be able to maintain the data structures in process without having to write out just to read back in
20:33 dparry by pure perl I mean only deploying perl, xs modules are fine
20:33 dparry I don't think it's session data, it's more what I might use mongo or redis for if I was able to deploy that everywhere I deployed this 'little' app
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20:43 sri damn, it's realy scary how many folks don't get that cloudflare ssl is not actually very secure :O
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20:52 dparry well using tmpfs actually seems like it would make my life straightforward so think I'll go with that, thanks mst!
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21:26 * genio kicks things
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22:01 * jberger hands genio a beer
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22:25 sri did someone say beer?
22:27 mishantil *waves hand* This is not the beer you're looking for.
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22:42 sri this is not the beer i'm looking for
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