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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-10-11

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01:05 sri batman said something about Mojo::mysql earlier, i got a notification in convos... but no clue where it came from
01:06 sri i have no interest in working on it, but i guess a lot of Mojo::Pg can be reused
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02:39 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-XRD 0.11 by Nils Diewald - http://metacpan.org/release/AKRON/Mojolicious-Plugin-XRD-0.11
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11:08 batman sri: i will share it with you in private later, so you can review it.
11:09 batman it's pretty much a rip-off :/
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11:55 janus hmmm. Mojo::Pg with Pg::PQ would be nice for non-blocking database stuff :)
11:57 janus I guess connect still block at the moment?
11:58 janus *blocks
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12:10 batman janus: the DESCRIPTION of Pg:::PQ is not very encouraging...
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13:04 batman sri: the notification is from a private message
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14:35 sri batman: looks ok i guess
14:35 batman ok... does that mean i should hold it off for a while?
14:37 sri it means i'm not very interested in mysql stuff
14:37 sri get it reviewed by folks who care
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14:38 batman ok, but you don't mind that the api is a complete rip off?
14:39 sri nope
14:39 batman thanks!
14:39 batman then i will make a release and ask the mailing list
14:41 sri your readme is ugly though
14:41 sri i always make a custom one since i consider it part of the marketing
14:41 batman you mean i should keep the markdown format?
14:42 batman or that the actual text is bad?
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15:05 cpan_mojo Mojo-MySQL 0.01 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-MySQL-0.01
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15:10 batman berov1, berovconvos: feedback wanted ^
15:11 berov1 yay :)
15:12 berov1 Do we have the same API as with Mojo::Pg ?
15:12 berov1 seems yes
15:15 sri batman: much of the documentation is a few releases behind
15:16 punter batman++
15:17 berov1 batman, let us keep the API the same
15:18 berov1 great that you found the time for this!
15:19 batman berov1: it's a complete rip-off. in a positive way imo :)
15:19 mst wonder how you'd do it with sqlite
15:19 berov1 I would like we have this with SQLite too :) have
15:20 batman mst: hehe... i was thinking about that, but couldn't find any async support in the dbd driver
15:20 berov1 MySQL or mysql?
15:20 berov1 DBD::mysql
15:20 purl rumour has it DBD::mysql is still a pita on os x
15:20 batman berov1: i don't get the question
15:21 berov1 batman: I mean, how yo decided on the name MySQL?
15:21 batman berov1: i just made a decision.
15:21 batman i will rename it, if it was a stupid decision
15:22 berov1 not a big deal but we have DBD::Pg
15:22 berov1 not sure what is write or wrong
15:23 berov1 simply everybody knows DBD::mysql
15:23 batman sri: i will look into what you've done, and try my best to keep up
15:23 batman berov1: and?
15:23 berov1 It would be natural. I know on the other hand that DBD::mysql is odd for a name of a Perl module
15:24 sri with sqlite you could only fake it i believe
15:24 mst quite a bit of mysql-related stuff is in the Net::MySQL namespace
15:24 berov1 ok
15:25 * batman will keep the name for now. i never felt "mysql" was natural.
15:25 berov1 I am not against , simply the existing DBD::mysql made me ask
15:25 batman i named it Mojo::MySQL simply because the database is called MySQL.
15:25 berov1 ok agree, you decided to do what you beleved was wright
15:25 mst most postgres stuff seems to go with ::Pg
15:25 mst mysql stuff seems about evenly split between ::mysql and ::MySQL
15:26 mst and bother arguments seem valid
15:26 mst so, eh
15:26 berov1 and this (the name) is the less important think :)
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15:26 batman i'm super happy that sri did the heavy lifting by making a sensible api.
15:27 berov1 I will try  and play
15:27 mst I dunno, the harder it is to find the less encouragement people will get to inflict MySQL on their project :P
15:27 sri i would have gone with Mojo::mysql for consistency (ocd...), but i guess it doesn't really matter
15:27 batman my work was very easy, except the part where the mysql driver does things on the $sth instead of $dbh :/
15:27 mst sri: http://trout.me.uk/odc.png
15:28 batman sri: are you +1 on Mojo::mysql ?
15:28 sri http://www.trout.me.uk/ocd.png
15:28 sri ;p
15:28 berov1 mst: Not Found
15:28 purl rumour has it Not Found is 404
15:28 * sri thinks he passed the test
15:29 mst sri++
15:29 sri batman: yes
15:29 mst batman: that's the name I would've expected too
15:29 mst "match the DBD name" just seems to make sense for a thing specifically wrapping the DBD
15:29 batman batman--
15:29 * batman will rename
15:30 sri i guess migrations might be out of the question for mysql
15:30 batman sri: i think i will keep it out, until someone makes a pull request
15:30 mst why?
15:30 sri without transactional ddl it could be pretty painful
15:30 batman at least for now
15:30 mst yeah, the lack of transactional ddl is retarded
15:30 mst but people using mysql are already used to this
15:31 mst (so are people using oracle)
15:31 mst (lol)
15:31 berov1 sri: ??? http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/commit.html
15:31 * sri loves postgresql
15:32 moritz berov1: that's only for SQL, not for schema changes
15:32 berov1 Am I too ignorant to not understand what are you talking about?
15:32 berov1 ahaaaa oh ok
15:33 moritz schema changes in mysql are not transactional (partically because the meta tables are myisam, and don't support transactions)
15:33 mst berov1: as soon as you do a CREATE, ALTER or DROP in mysql
15:33 mst berov1: it first silently COMMITs any current transaction
15:33 berov1 ah good to know
15:33 berov1 I realized it just now
15:34 mst so 'BEGIN; DELETE FROM table_name; CREATE ...; ROLLBACK;'
15:34 mst will actually empty table_name
15:34 mst it's horrible
15:34 mst less horrible than mongodb, but mostly only because the stupid is actually documented
15:35 moritz and, let me guess, being schemaless, mongodb doesn't have schema changes?
15:35 sri i still miss the schema-less part working with postgres
15:35 moritz (I don't actually know anything about mongodb)
15:35 batman sri: i thought it had a json storage..?
15:35 mst moritz: I believe for the relevant things, it does copy-rename-drop
15:36 sri on the other hand, while mongodb is schema-less... once you need indexes and constraints on collections you basically have to manage a schema too
15:36 mst moritz: the point at which I got extremely upset was when I resized a capped collection (basically size-limited FIFO)
15:36 mst moritz: so, basically, I said "only keep 500Mb of data instead of 1Gb"
15:36 sri yea, that kinda stuff sucks
15:36 mst moritz: and it said "ok"
15:36 mst moritz: and then production fell over
15:36 mst moritz: because it copied the collection into a new version half the size
15:37 mst moritz: and didn't actually copy the indexes
15:37 mst because, y'know, who cares about indexes? WEB SCALE
15:37 sri mongodb still needs another 20 years to grow up
15:38 mst right. it's currently slowly approaching the maturity level of mysql 3.23
15:38 mst (without innodb)
15:38 sri although... mongodb inc will surely find a way to ruin it along the way
15:39 sri i think choosing AGPL is a huge red flag i should have known about earlier
15:39 jberger OH DEAR GOD HOW COME NO ONE HAS TYPED DONE THIS YET:
15:39 jberger )
15:39 * jberger relaxes
15:39 * jberger finishes reading the backlog
15:40 cpan_mojo Mojo-mysql 0.01 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-mysql-0.01
15:40 batman \o/
15:41 batman thanks for fixing this so soon berov1, sri, mst
15:41 mst batman: make sure to delete the -MySQL ones from CPAN so mactards and windozers don't get confused
15:41 batman on my way
15:41 batman pause takes forever to load...
15:42 berov thanks batman :) you decided so quickly :)
15:45 jberger postgres seems to require single quotes on insert, how do people deal with that in one-liners?
15:45 batman sure. the majority is often right :)
15:45 jberger on linux
15:45 batman mst: Mojo-MySQL is scheduled for deletion
15:48 batman hehe... maybe i should add a DISCLAIMER to the module, saying you should use postgresql instead? :)
15:49 batman Mojo::mysql::Database # yeah. awesome module name...
15:49 batman :/
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15:52 sri jberger: placeholders?
15:52 purl placeholders is the '?' in INSERT INTO archive VALUES(?, ?, ?, NOW(), NULL)
15:53 * sri pats purl
15:53 * purl purrs
15:53 jberger I guess that works
15:53 jberger I wish it just wasn't so strict about it
15:53 mst about what?
15:54 jberger mst: postgres requires single quotes, which makes one liners hard
15:54 sri i was really worried about charsets... because people come here with problems so often... but so far it just works for me :o
15:54 sri even json just works
15:55 batman sri: yeah, you're lucky... not so much with mysql: https://github.com/jhthorsen/mojo-mysql/blob/master/t/mysql_lite_app.t
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15:55 batman holy crap. i wonder if that's going to be annoying in convos ^^^
15:55 sri it's kinda ironic that postgresql's dollar quoting is also bad for perl
15:56 jberger sri: I'm hoping to enjoy postgres, my biggest exposure to raw sql (ie not dbic) is a horrible ancient sybase at work via a more horrible ancient sybase python driver
15:56 berov sri: https://wiki.postgresql.org/images/b/b4/Pg-as-nosql-pgday-fosdem-2013.pdf
15:56 mst jberger: you can always use e.g. SQL::Composer to build queries
15:56 sri berov: what about that?
15:57 berov you mentioned something about "schemaless"
15:57 berov sri: did you mean that?
15:57 sri no
15:59 berov sri: what you meant?
16:01 berov not mentioning the schema name when selecting from a table?
16:01 mst no
16:01 berov :(
16:01 mst he means like the fact that with mongodb you just make shit up and it stores it
16:01 mst whereas postgres wants to know what your columns are called
16:02 sri when you can make an example app like the one in this readme and it just works... that is schema less https://github.com/oliwer/mango
16:02 batman mst: i just deleted "mypp" now from github :=
16:02 batman :)
16:02 sri batman: allright, those avatar image previews for github links are really annoying
16:02 batman i agree
16:02 mst sri: yeah. I have a plan for that
16:02 batman will it be better if i make the images smaller?
16:02 sri (talking about convos)
16:03 sri batman: doubt it
16:03 batman so what's the alternative?
16:03 sri mst: well, my plan was to make migrations that just work on app startup :)
16:04 mst sri: that's because you're boring and sensible
16:04 sri heh
16:04 sri allright, now i'm curious
16:04 berov mst, sri: well then the presentation which I posted was about that
16:04 batman sri: made the image smaller for now... need more input before i revert it completely :/
16:05 batman sri: reload for new css
16:05 sri batman: that reminded me of those horrible image previews on facebook
16:06 batman yeah, that's exactly what it is actually :/
16:06 batman sri: can you survive until tomorrow?
16:06 batman i want input from marcus first
16:06 sri i'll try!
16:07 sri if i don't someone here please avenge me!
16:07 batman good. i need to go and make dinner soon
16:07 batman sri: the idea is to add more metadata from links.
16:08 batman so it fetches twitter or open graph metadata now
16:09 batman jberger: you can see a demo of it on demo.convos.by.
16:10 batman haven't released https://github.com/jhthorsen/mojolicious-plugin-linkembedder yet
16:10 batman yeah. that is pretty annoying actually
16:10 batman marcus: wonder how to fix that :/
16:10 batman it's nice and annoying at the same time (!)
16:11 sri most annoying for me is still the scroll problems caused by embedding
16:11 sri if it loads too slow it scrolls too early and then the preview pops up and you end up scrolled up
16:12 sri i actually wouldn't mind more previews is scrolling just worked
16:12 batman yeah. that sucks big time :(
16:12 sri s/is/if/
16:12 batman the plan is to hack on convos tomorrow
16:12 batman it's been too long since last time :(
16:13 batman and i also need to make a new convos server with more memory...
16:15 batman i wonder if the embed part should have a light grey background
16:18 sri batman: https://github.com/Nordaaker/convos/issues/207
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16:19 batman got it
16:35 berov Turns out that SQLite "actually does not need???" async ? see the note on top of this page https://www.sqlite.org/asyncvfs.html
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16:42 mst that's for writes anyway
16:42 mst I'd've thought the main interest would be for reads
16:43 berov mst; yes :(
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16:57 sri batman: you forgot to post to the list
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17:08 batman sri: thanks! posted now :)
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17:26 sri batman++
17:27 sri i was unsure about migrations yesterday... but today i totally love them
17:29 sri not requiring any manual work is really cool, just have a ->migrate call that runs at startup and you're done
17:30 mst and since it's one line, you can make people explicitly add that call
17:31 mst so later if they decide they don't want that for production it's obvious that they just either delete it or stick an if statement round it
17:31 sri sure, the version select on the migrations table is pretty cheap though
17:32 sri and if you restart a cluster, the first will lock the table, migrate, and the others will wait until it's done
17:32 mst sure. but there are plenty of reasons you might not want to do it that way
17:33 sri of course :)
17:33 mst if nothing else, "webheads' database user probably shouldn't be able to run DDL" is a reasonable argument
17:35 mst fundamentally, I'm saying "it's one explicit line, you can remove it if you ever don't like it" is pretty much the best of both worlds :)
17:38 sri yea, and wrapping a manual migration step into a command is trivial too ./script/myapp eval 'app->pg->migration->migrate'
17:38 sri *+s
17:39 sri this would be such a pita with mysql to get right
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17:52 sri still wondering which term i like more migrations or evolutions
17:53 Adurah_ You will offend the Young Earthers with the latter.
17:53 moritz sounds like a definite plus :-)
17:54 mst evolution is a blind idiot god
17:55 mst so I don't think that's the right term
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18:19 * jnbek pokes mst in the eye with a plague infected finger; blames Chickens and runs like hell
18:19 jnbek oh damn
18:20 jnbek scrolled up for the loss
18:20 * jnbek is embarassed
18:29 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-SemanticUI 0.07 by Krasimir Berov - http://metacpan.org/release/BEROV/Mojolicious-Plugin-SemanticUI-0.07
18:30 mst berov: ooo
18:30 berov mst: ?
18:30 mst berov: I'd been eyeing that, it seemed significantly less stupid than bootstrap
18:30 berov I like it more
18:30 mst though I've also heard that 'bootstrap plus pocketgrid' takes away a lot of the pain
18:31 berov did not know about pocketgrid
18:32 mst is there something similar to bootswatch for semantic UI yet?
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18:32 mst being able to yell "pick a theme, fucko" and move on to something useful is a valuable feature to me :)
18:33 berov hm not yet
18:34 berov I just pack http://beta.semantic-ui.com/
18:34 berov but there is also themes support
18:34 mst yeah, but the 'semantic themes' link on there doesn't exist yet
18:35 berov no
18:35 mst I am aware it says 'beta', though
18:35 berov if you browse the site this one up
18:35 berov you can switch themes
18:36 berov not yet tried to playe with themes
18:51 sri jberger: i guess you could use q{} and dollar quoted strings in one-liners ;p http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/interactive/sql-syntax-lexical.html
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19:10 jberger_ sri++
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19:29 cpan_mojo Mojo-Pg 0.05 by Sebastian Riedel - http://metacpan.org/release/SRI/Mojo-Pg-0.05
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19:48 thowe is there something like Mojo-Pg for DBIC?
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19:49 mst no
19:52 * thowe has a sad
19:53 mst I see no reason why there couldn't be
19:58 berov I think one can just create classes with Moo and Mojo::Pg/mysql
19:58 mst yes, but that would provide none of the interesting parts of DBIC
19:58 berov but yea an ORM would be great
19:58 berov yes
20:00 berov then full MVC apps can be done with modules tought to work dogether well and loosely coupled at the same time
20:00 berov what I want to achieve with Ado
20:01 * mst looks at p3rl.org/Ado
20:01 mst oh, yay, plugin-list-in-config-file antipattern
20:01 mst don't do that
20:02 mst do NOT confuse per-deployment configuration like DSNs with application-framework static config like which plugins you're loading
20:02 mst that's a terrible idea
20:02 berov mst: ? not sure I understand
20:02 berov some article to read  will help :)
20:03 mst it looks like ado.conf is "all config"
20:03 berov ah :)
20:03 berov nooo
20:04 berov it can be
20:04 mst I spent years getting catalyst documentation updated so the DSN was in the config file but e.g. the DBIx::Class schema name wasn't
20:04 berov but Ado adds a feature which allows you to have
20:04 mst then Dancer did the same thing again, because nobody used their brain
20:04 berov config per plugin
20:04 mst and everybody who first writes a framework-y thing seems to get that wrong
20:04 mst so I default to assuming they did :)
20:05 mst so, yeah, sorry if I was wrong, but it's usually true :)
20:05 berov but Mojolicious has one config for all also
20:05 mst Mojolicious seems to put things like 'what plugins to load' into code
20:05 mst which works fine
20:06 berov Ado allows to have plugins configurations in app.config, but allows also separate config files per plugin too
20:07 berov In Mojo I can not just plug unplug a plugin and restart
20:07 berov I have to touch the code
20:08 berov that is what I added to Ado, otherwise it ISA Mojolicious
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20:16 berov mst: imagine a site in which you add "News"  feature . you just add the "News" plugin and restart
20:16 thowe "ISA"?
20:16 purl somebody said "ISA" was correct.
20:16 berov that is what most CMS do
20:17 berov thowe: ISA == is a == extends
20:17 mst berov: sure
20:17 thowe Ah, I thought maybe...
20:17 mst berov: what I'm saying is "News plugin is loaded" is about "what is my application", whereas "DSN is dbi:whatever" is about "how is my application currently deployed"
20:18 mst berov: and the two sorts of information need to be separate
20:19 sri berov: mojolicious certainly does not encourage that pattern
20:19 thowe Now I'm going to have to try out Ado...
20:19 berov so you recommend not to have DBD DSN in the config file, right ?
20:19 mst I am saying there are two sorts of thing here
20:19 mst and just because they're both configuration, they're not the same sort of thing
20:20 mst I recommend having the DSN in the per-deployment configuration
20:20 berov sri: I know :)
20:20 mst and keeping the application-structure configuration separate
20:20 mst you can do that by having it in code, or by having it in a separate config file, or whatever
20:21 berov mst: that is a Mojolicious feature that is just available in Ado because it is Mojolicious
20:21 mst eh?
20:21 mst ok, lemme try and put this a different way
20:21 berov e.g app.conf,app.development.conf app.production.conf
20:21 berov Mojo loads two files
20:22 mst that's only sufficient if app.conf doesn't have extra crap in it
20:22 berov app.$mode.conf can have the DSN specific staff
20:23 mst yes, but app.conf should be just the defaults to be overriden by app.$mode.conf
20:23 mst it shouldn't contain anything that will never be set in a $mode.conf
20:23 berov and app.conf can have all the crap OR lea it for plugins conf files
20:23 berov lea->leave
20:24 mst if you allow people to put things in app.conf that aren't per-deployment settings to be overriden, people will do it wrong
20:24 mst same basic problem as things like drupal letting you keep the configuration and the data in the same DB
20:25 berov ok understand about the database
20:25 mst but you're doing the exact same thing
20:26 berov but how can I have a core app, and then deploy it to customers and ad different features according to contracts
20:26 berov I will have to write code
20:26 mst you can have a SECOND SET OF CONFIGURATION
20:26 mst stop inventing problems
20:27 mst the point is that you should have ONE set of config that is "this is the way X is set up for customer Y", and a SECOND set of config that's per-deployment, which Mojolicious already provides
20:29 * berov rereading mst's last sentence several times to wrap his head around what he is doing wrong
20:29 * sri needs some ben & jerry's ice cream
20:29 sri <3 half baked
20:30 batman :D
20:31 * berov going for a cigarette to think
20:38 batman i'm surprised this didn't already exist: https://galaxy.ansible.com/list#/roles/1932
20:38 batman marcus: i hope it works now :)
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21:07 berov mst: What I understood you say is "do not put dsn info in config file" right?
21:07 mst no
21:07 berov then?
21:07 purl NO AND THEN! or correct in that sentence
21:08 mst TWO SETS OF CONFIG
21:08 mst TWO SETS OF CONFIG
21:08 mst TWO SETS OF CONFIG
21:08 mst TWO SETS OF CONFIG
21:08 berov example?
21:08 mst i.e. app.conf should have DSN
21:08 purl Example (noun): A thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule.
21:08 mst list of plugins etc. should be somewhere else
21:08 mst maybe a second config file
21:09 bpmedley my $config = plugin Config => {file => '/etc/myapp.stuff'};  <— Looks like you can specifcy a config file name here
21:10 berov yes, and I use it
21:11 berov load two configs and then merge them :)
21:12 berov mst: but that is completely achievable with the following
21:13 mst merging isn't what I'm talking about
21:13 purl i guess talking about is "Yeah, you're alway talking and talking and talking. Shut up and code."
21:13 mst what I'm talking about is there being two completely separate sorts of config
21:14 berov app.conf - things which are per customer deployment
21:14 berov app.$mode.conf perl environment overriting the things in app.conf
21:14 berov mst: benefits?
21:15 mst separation of concerns?
21:15 purl somebody said separation of concerns was what nxu7 is mostly aiming for
21:15 berov chop(perl)
21:18 berov how much more to separate?.. anyway
21:19 * berov shutting up and starts codding a plugin
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21:28 jberger purl: be mst
21:28 purl If you see me running, there's beer in that direction!
21:29 * jberger is in a suit again
21:29 jberger sigh
21:29 jberger three weddings in three weekends
21:37 batman jberger: you probably look smashing!
21:37 batman :)
21:42 thowe You don't find weddings fun?
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22:19 jberger I do, but three in a row is a bit much
22:20 jberger I think I'm going bow tie tonight
22:33 sri bow ties are cool
22:46 preaction but i don't think you could pull off a fez
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