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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-10-17

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:08 woz joined #mojo
00:08 sri guess i'm not a fan of yosemite... those blur effects annoy me
00:12 zivester joined #mojo
00:13 sri ah, there's a reduced transparency setting
00:16 woz I think I like it, but it's a bit alien at the moment.
00:27 * tempire downloads the national park
00:29 jzawodn_ tempire: beware of fires!
00:30 tempire Nonsense. It's provided via an Apple web service. WHATCANGOWRONG.
00:31 sri hmm, i might actually use safari again :o
00:32 sri chrome suddenly feels all clunky and slow
00:32 tempire The performance metrics looked pretty amazing.
00:32 tempire But those web dev tools are so foreign
00:36 tempire So who's getting the new 5k iMac?
00:36 tempire 5k!
00:37 woz I'd love one, but not sure I can justify replacing my 2 year old 27 incher just yet.
00:38 woz Same maxed out spec is £3000. Eek!
00:39 woz Actually I think that's less than I paid for this one
00:39 tempire The prices are on par or slightly less than the old ones, from what I saw
00:40 woz Man we are fleeced in the UK
00:40 tempire Someone has to pay for all those street cameras
00:40 woz UK price $4829
00:40 woz US price $3749
00:41 woz Same spec
00:41 woz Ha, yeah
00:42 jzawodn_ I just want a 5k thunderbolt display that I can plug into my Retina MBP
00:42 tempire That would be ideal.
00:43 tempire Surprised they didn't release that simultaneously.
00:43 woz I expect they'll arrive next year
00:43 tempire Can the mbp push those pixels?
00:43 tempire I want a derned mbp with touch id already
00:43 woz Probably got the entire panel supply chain maxed out on iMacs at the mo.
00:44 woz Oooh, good point. No, MBP probably can't drive one yet.
00:44 jzawodn_ from what I read (which is litlte) an MBP can only drive one with 'compressed' data since there's not enough thunderbolt bandwidth
00:44 woz They made a big deal of the new timing controller chip in the iMac
00:48 woz I think I'm hanging on for the rumoured 12" MBA
00:48 bpmedley I wish the desktop mac pro wasn’t round and silly.
00:49 woz I wish it doubled as an ice bucket
00:49 bpmedley lol
00:51 woz Any major reason you rebuilt perl on Yosemite Sri?
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02:14 sri batman: your new layout has a little problem http://i.imgur.com/HBeW4hH.png
02:15 sri it's not aligned with the bottom
02:16 sri you see it when you scroll up
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04:08 * tempire is upgraded
04:08 tempire Somehow I didn't expect such a drastic change
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04:11 tempire ugh
04:11 tempire Don't like the default favorites view for a new tab
04:24 * sri is solwly getting used to the new design, but had to switch back to chrome
04:24 tempire The chrome toolset is too embedded. I don't think I'll switch.
04:24 tempire I like that it's different.
04:25 tempire Not a fan of the spotlight splash thing.
04:25 tempire xcode looks much nicer
04:25 * sri is trying to decide between dark or light menu bar atm.
04:25 tempire Is it just me, or do all the colors I see every day look brighter?
04:30 jberger you mac people
04:30 * jberger doesn't understand
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05:42 franzkafka Hi all, just wondering if you guys have any things on github that you've done with Mojolicious?
05:43 franzkafka I've been checking out Galileo and wondering if there are any others.
05:50 tempire There's http://convos.by/
05:50 tempire Which is what many people in here are using
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06:12 franzkafka wow, this is nice!
06:12 tempire hmm.
06:12 tempire I want dark mode for the spotlight window, and nothing else.
06:16 batman sri: that's a weird bug :S
06:16 batman will have a look now
06:17 batman ah! got it now :)
06:19 batman sri: fixed
06:19 batman thanks
06:34 bpmedley franzkafka: https://github.com/brianmed/sparky
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07:22 marcus sri: I was drinking beer. Also I want that imac
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08:25 Jonis tempire: using spotlight? have you tried alfred? Like spotlight but also has workflows
08:33 odc bpmedley, sparky looks great! I'll have to try it sometime
08:34 bpmedley odc: Thanks.  I got frustated when I realized I don’t have enough on my data plan to be effective, so development has slowed.
08:35 odc heh
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10:48 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-PubSubHubbub 0.13 by Nils Diewald - http://metacpan.org/release/AKRON/Mojolicious-Plugin-PubSubHubbub-0.13
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11:24 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-JSUrlFor 0.15 by Viktor Tuskyi - http://metacpan.org/release/KOORCHIK/Mojolicious-Plugin-JSUrlFor-0.15
11:28 hernan bpmedley: did you forget to include a Makefile.pl /
11:29 hernan in sparky
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12:08 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-LinkEmbedder 0.10 by Jan Henning Thorsen - http://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojolicious-Plugin-LinkEmbedder-0.10
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12:22 bpmedley hernan: I don’t think so.  I was using the PerlPDK from ActiveState.  It should be able to run without it.
12:44 diegok o/
12:45 diegok anyone from here going to Madrid next week for pgconf?
12:45 woz Saving all my money so I can afford a beer at the next MojoConf
12:46 diegok woz: OMG!, where is going to be the next mojoconf?
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12:50 woz I'm assuming Oslo again, but don't have any confirmation of that
12:50 woz If it is Oslo, then start saving - 1 beer = 1 kidney
12:52 moritz I'll take the kidney. Roasted please
12:52 r0b3rt_ left #mojo
12:52 bc547 with fava beans?
12:52 genio finally done updating
12:53 genio stupid texlive and other homebrew crap took forever
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13:00 mishantil woz: I'll happily buy you a beer if you end up over here again.
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13:04 hernan bpmedley: you dont think so yeah!
13:05 hernan i just cant install deps automatically
13:05 hernan ie cpanm --install-deps
13:05 hernan must install them one by one
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13:12 hernan bpmedley: i wanted to try your app because i thought of doing some music streaming yesterday
13:13 hernan bpmedley:  have you tested your app in linux environment ?
13:15 D4RK-PH0ENiX joined #mojo
13:18 bpmedley hernan: Gotta goto work now; I’ll try and explain later why there is no Makefile.PL and whatnot.  I have tested in Linux.
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13:42 jberger I still can't believe how big texlive is
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13:42 jberger also the few proposals we have for mojoconf all have high prices for beer
13:42 jberger sadly
13:44 * jberger starts saving for beer
13:54 jberger then again they are cool places
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14:34 marty hmm - ipfw was removed from Yosemite.   Gunna have to figure how to use pf now.
14:35 odc shit. now osx has a better firewall than linux :/
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15:09 sri marcus, jberger, batman, tempire, crab: remember when you voted to bool overload Mojo::Collection? mst is now yelling about how shitty that is in #perl...
15:10 mst it's fucking horrible
15:11 mst DBIx::Class did that years ago, and it's caused nothing but pain and confusion
15:11 nicomen is it filed as a bug?
15:11 mst and I only did that because I was also overloading numify to preserve CDBICOmpat behaviour
15:11 mst in fact, we ended up specifically overloading bool to 1
15:11 mst so that if ($rs) { stopped being broken for an empty rs
15:12 mst you appear to have actively broken an empty Mojo::Collection
15:12 mst it's like somebody let the dancer team pick your operator overloads
15:14 sri btw. it was marcus who actually committed it https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/a8153a538a8254651b77e5fdec5eda919af5a23b
15:16 sri oh, it was during mojoconf
15:17 mst I don't really care who committed it, I care that it's a terrible, horrible, user hostile piece of stupid
15:17 mst and Mojo was supposed to not be user hostile
15:19 jberger I know I'm going to regret this because mst is smarter than I am in these cases, but what is user hostile about saying "if I have things do something"
15:19 nicomen ^ famous last words
15:19 jberger indeed. no really, he has much more exp than I do so I expect he is right
15:20 jberger I'm just curious
15:20 mst jberger: if ($empty_arrayref) { # true
15:20 mst jberger: you're completely breaking POLS
15:21 mst "do I have a collection" <-- if ($collection)
15:21 mst "does the collection contain things" <-- if (@$collection) or if ($collection->size)
15:21 mst two different questions. two different standard idioms for testing them
15:22 mst being inconsistent with *arrayrefs* for a thing that's designed to be used as a super-arrayref is ... not sane
15:25 jberger I suppose that in my line of thinking, and I would have to check this to be sure, but methods that return collection objects should always be doing so, and so testing that I got one isn't as useful
15:26 jberger then again, I did say "should" there belying my own point
15:26 mst so you don't believe in methods having optional parameters, ever?
15:27 mst bet that makes for an interesting programming experience :P
15:28 nicomen jberger: at some point someone should return "undef"-ish if there is nothing to return, no?
15:28 jberger mst: I'm not sure what optional arguments has to do with anything
15:28 mst sub my_method { my ($self, $thing, $optional_collection_argument) = @_;
15:28 jberger nicomen: not in the use cases that collections are used for in mojo
15:28 mst now you have to remember to test 'if (defined($optional_collection_argument))'
15:28 mst oh, and also
15:28 mst you can't pass it to something that expects an arrayref anymore
15:29 mst which is going to be even more confusing
15:29 mst unless ($required_arrayref) { die "User either failed to pass a required parameter or is using Mojo::Collection" }
15:30 jberger mst: ok I see that point. though the collection is used in a certain way in mojo I wasn't thinking about how a user might write his/her post-processing functions
15:31 * jberger blames mst for not being at the mojoconf hack-a-ton :-p
15:31 nicomen I'm discussing with myself a bit here about this
15:33 nicomen but this is surely a better example: sub m { my ($self, $haystack, $needle, $opt) = @_; ... }; $foo->m(Mojo::Collection, "foo", { ... } );
15:33 nicomen or does that not collapse?
15:34 nicomen ah not bool context
15:34 jberger also if that collapsed you would end up thinking your needle was your haystack
15:35 sri fwiw. i agree with mst on the it doesn't behave like an arrayref argument
15:35 sri mst: but please dial down the swearing in this channel in the future
15:36 sri whole point of Mojo::Collection originally was to have arrayrefs that do a little more
15:36 mst right, which is why bool should return true, since it does for arrayrefs
15:36 mst sri: I only said 'fuck' once :P
15:36 mikegrb heh
15:36 jberger actually mst's language has been fairly measured, his one use was not directed at a person but at a decision
15:38 sri allright, i guess most of the swearing i remember actually happened in #perl, carry on then! :)
15:39 jberger i rarely care about swearing at/about non human things
15:40 sri for the record, there are 10 boolean overloads in mojolicious, and 9 return always true
15:40 jberger sri: I will admit (as it's probably obvious by now) that I voted for and probably proposed that change
15:40 mst and the only thing I said in #perl was "was the fuck is this shit?"
15:41 mst I'm actually surprised. I thought I'd've sworn more about this :D
15:41 jberger I still like it because I don't especially think of a collection as just a slightly better arraye ref
15:42 mst I think given people can do if (@$coll) or if ($coll->size) that expresses intent better anyway
15:42 jberger but if that is the general impression then yes, always true is plos
15:42 mst but also, 'if you have an object at all, it's true' is something people tend to expect
15:42 mst hence why you need to boolify if you stringify
15:43 mst Class::DBI had that bug, it stringified to a column value
15:43 mst so if your column was empty, if ($row) { after a lookup by PK could fail
15:43 mst that used to bite people regularly
15:43 jberger mst: again for my use cases, getting an empty list or getting no list usually leads to the same choice of doing nothing
15:43 mst so I'd argue that 'objects are true' is a POLS thing in general too
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15:44 jberger but I will defer if people disagree with me
15:44 mst jberger: sure. I understand the attraction
15:44 mst I've seen this idea before. it falls into the "watersports at an orgy" category
15:44 mst no matter how much fun it seems to begin with, sooner or later somebody's going to get splashed who wasn't expecting it
15:45 jberger hahaha, I was wondering (exactly) where that was going (my guess was close enough)
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15:56 marty I'm away from the screen for 10 minutes and come back to find discussions of orgies!  sup wit dat?
15:56 jberger marty: you missed it, tough luck
15:57 * marty pouts
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16:12 sri mst, jberger: so any proposals for solutions?
16:12 mst bool => sub { 1 }
16:13 sri like a deprecation path, is one necessary at all... and so on
16:13 jberger sri: I will defer to mst's experience
16:13 mst how long has it been in there?
16:13 sri may 25
16:14 mst I think maybe I'd just change it and see if anybody complains
16:15 mst I *strongly* suspect that you'll fix more bugs than you'll cause
16:17 Trelane Having been bit by that bug myself (and I'm a mojo newbie) I recommend always true
16:18 jberger also, I think that what's likely to happen is cause users who thought (like me) that they were shortcutting processing no results will instead be processing no results
16:19 jberger which is probably ok
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16:21 mst that would be my hope.
16:21 sri marcus: you have an opinion? (since you made the change)
16:22 * sri wonders if this is the first time there are more people in #mojo than in #catalyst :o
16:25 sri one more thing
16:26 sri it appears Mojo::ByteStream has bool overload always being true documented, but has no bool overload
16:26 sri and tests for true/false depending on content
16:27 * mst backs away slowly
16:27 sri http://www.gifbin.com/bin/102011/1319738930_homer_simpson_hides_in_hedge.gif
16:28 mst nothing wrong with hedging your bets
16:36 Trelane Can I ask, is the need for bool => sub { 1 } because you're overloading stringification?
16:36 mst [x] yes
16:37 Trelane because if you do away with the stringification, doesn't "always true boolean" come for free?
16:37 good_news_everyon joined #mojo
16:37 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/OSx9BA
16:37 good_news_everyon mojo/master 51695db Sebastian Riedel: fixed Mojo::ByteStream and Mojo::Collection to always return true in boolean context
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16:37 jberger weren't we thinking about removing string overload for collections?
16:37 mst yes. but the stringification is at least theoretically a feature
16:37 sri Trelane: your choice of words is funny, because it's everything but "free" :D
16:38 sri it has the potential to be crazy expensive
16:38 mst so I was assuming people wanted to keep that
16:38 mst sri: he's saying "if you don't overload stringification, bool just works"
16:38 sri oops, ignore me... i misread :(
16:38 mst which is true
16:39 sri removing stringify overload is planned https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/684
16:39 sri but i don't think we can do that outside of a major release
16:40 sri open for arguments though... that one keeps causing problems every other week
16:40 meredith i had to go check what its stringify does because i had tuned it out as "magic to avoid"
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16:47 mst it's nice being able to do 'print $collection_of_html_fragments;'
16:47 mst but ... yeah. not nice enough to justify the cost
16:47 sri i've come to the conclusion that it's not nice at all
16:48 sri we have $collection->join
16:48 sri this has made the Mojo::DOM learning curve soooooooo much steaper
16:49 sri s/a/e/
16:54 sri https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f4adf4788d66aa04a1fa
16:54 sri that's what a patch would look like
16:55 * sri pokes jberger, marcus, tempire, batman and crab
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17:06 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/XoIV5Q
17:06 good_news_everyon mojo/master 7df037f Sebastian Riedel: Mojo::Collection still stringifies
17:06 good_news_everyon left #mojo
17:07 sri allright, if there are no strong opinions i'm tempted to close https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/684
17:08 sri and nobody has addressed the ->val problem
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17:13 sri and rejected https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/684#issuecomment-59544773
17:14 tempire I never had a problem with stringify
17:14 tempire I can see why someone would.
17:15 tempire I'm just not concerned about it.
17:15 sri it's great when you know what you're doing, and a nightmare when you don't
17:17 sri things can get pretty funny
17:17 sri perl -Mojo -E 'say g("mojolicio.us")->dom->find("div")->find("p")'
17:17 sri who knows what structure that actually results in?
17:17 sri you'll like this
17:17 sri perl -Mojo -E 'say r g("mojolicio.us")->dom->find("div")->find("p")'
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17:21 sri of course you can dumper, but stringify can make that a little confusing
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17:39 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/5km0Gg
17:39 good_news_everyon mojo/master 2941f5e Sebastian Riedel: fixed bug in Mojolicious::Validator::Validation where every_param would sometimes return an array reference containing an undef value (closes #691)
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17:53 neilhwatson Is there anything in mojo that might case a css file to get the wrong mime type (text/plain instead of text/css).
17:54 * sri wonders if he should install the android l preview on his nexus 5
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18:16 batman i think it's very sad that we didn't bother to comment the change, when we did after all spent quite some time discussing boolean overload for $collection :(
18:16 batman i can't remember why we decided it was a good idea, i only remember that it caused quite the discussion
18:17 batman i'm +1 on removing overload. i agree that doing if (@$collection) is not hard.
18:18 batman could it be that there's somewhere i mojo where we either return a collection or undef; ..?
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18:25 r0b3rt neilhwatson:  file extension?  https://metacpan.org/source/SRI/Mojolicious-5.50/lib/Mojolicious/Static.pm#L87
18:26 neilhwatson the css files are static in public/css/my.css
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18:44 sri batman: nope, there isn't
18:45 sri i think jberger and marcus argued for it
18:45 sri it could also have had something to do with getting rid of wantarray
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19:07 hernan any good mojo streaming examples?
19:33 sri installing android images is really super easy now that the tools are in homebrew
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19:40 sri google is really stepping up their game, this is so pretty
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20:10 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-MailException 0.19 by Dmitry E. Oboukhov - http://metacpan.org/release/UNERA/Mojolicious-Plugin-MailException-0.19
20:23 genio iPhoto is now broken.  *glares at yosemite*
20:41 batman sri: ok... Then I'm out of ideas :/
20:42 batman Maybe marcus can shed some light...
20:42 batman *back tomorrow*
21:18 sri so yea... i lost my cndy crush score :(
21:19 sri s/cndy crush/candy crush/
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21:47 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih tagged v5.51 at 715984d: http://git.io/muuttw
21:47 good_news_everyon left #mojo
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21:48 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/kCgJ6A
21:48 good_news_everyon mojo/master 0845559 Sebastian Riedel: bump version
21:48 good_news_everyon left #mojo
21:49 cpan_mojo Mojolicious 5.51 by Sebastian Riedel - http://metacpan.org/release/SRI/Mojolicious-5.51
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22:57 jberger sri: that'll teach you not to upgrade!
23:00 tempire It certainly wasn't me.
23:01 tempire I was braindead after that saturday
23:04 sri the plot thickens
23:04 purl Mmm... thick plot...
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23:55 jberger I love a tasty plot
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