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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-11-24

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Time Nick Message
00:03 preaction franzkafka: this exact thing you're doing is what aaron swartz did that got him in trouble...
00:03 firnsy sharing zipcodes?
00:05 preaction taking data from one place and putting it in another place without permission
00:05 franzkafka preaction++, never heard of this Aaron Schwartz guy and it's a rather interesting read. And I am honestly on his side on this, I don't see why we horde/protect knowledge. JSTOR data should be freely available.
00:06 franzkafka Anyway, the point is, it took me quite a long time to compile all this data and ensure it's all accurate so that the entire basis of my webapp does not suck. I see companies selling this data, so not sure why I wouldn't be able to give it away for free.
00:07 franzkafka And geonames and others do give it away for free, but what they're giving away is not really accurate. So, it's OK to give it away so long as it's not accurate?
00:07 franzkafka I need to look into the legalities of this I guess.
00:08 franzkafka “If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.”  - George Bernard Shaw
00:09 preaction that isn't what you did though. these aren't ideas, they're data. if i make a datum, and you take my datum and give it to someone else, i don't get the value of my datum
00:09 axlrose joined #mojo
00:10 preaction you didn't go out and make this data, you took it from someone else. i agree that data should be free, especially political map information, but that's not the world we live in
00:11 preaction so while i steal data, a lot of data, i don't redistribute it openly
00:11 sri prepare to be droned
00:12 franzkafka preaction, there should be a way to anonymously distribute this data (or maybe there is).
00:12 preaction tor
00:12 franzkafka data is knowledge to me, knowledge about the world, and knowledge should not be limited.
00:12 franzkafka Yeah, I refuse to get on Tor though.
00:12 franzkafka Hm, OK, well I guess I keep it to myself then. That's sad to me.
00:13 sri <3 tor (sometimes)
00:13 preaction knowledge takes effort by people. for knowledge to be valueable, people need to value it. so, people should get rewarded for their effort on behalf of knowledge. that's what copyright and patents are
00:14 preaction i'm not saying the 10,000 year copyrights we currently have are correct, but denying all copyright is not correct either
00:14 franzkafka Wow, I had no idea web scraping was also so problematic.
00:14 preaction it is. most channels i'm in won't help people scrape the web, because it's a huge legal problem
00:14 franzkafka I put a lot of effort into building this data, and I think people should be free to use it so that we can all build better things together, rather than spend our time constantly reinventing the wheel so to speak.
00:15 preaction yes, but can you prove that the data you've collected was legally obtained and legal for other people to use (legal to distribute)?
00:15 preaction "it was out there" is not enough
00:15 sri the concept of intellectual property is very new though
00:16 franzkafka No, but can openstreetmap prove that either? I mean, can OSM prove that all data submitted has been obtained by people using their GPS?
00:16 preaction it is new. i suspect that's why we suck at it
00:16 franzkafka I don't see how with this kind of data you really prove where it was sourced from. Other than the fact that I've admitted it here ;)
00:16 preaction franzkafka: no, but they have disclaimers and DMCA Safe Harbor provisions for legal protection
00:16 preaction if someone proves the data was not obtained legally, the DMCA lays out the steps that the owner of the data must take
00:17 franzkafka That's the problem I have, how could they really prove, if I were to put a data dump on Github let's say, that I obtained this data from copyright sources.
00:17 franzkafka sri, strike this conversation from the logs!
00:17 franzkafka :D
00:17 sri i don't control the logs actually, you're screwed
00:17 preaction they don't have to prove it before they take you to court. they can take you to court for anything. then you must pay to defend yourself, which is why they'll win
00:18 franzkafka Man, this is interesting stuff. Actually makes me wish I studied IP law.
00:18 franzkafka sri, dang
00:19 preaction this conversation wouldn't much matter, in the grand scheme of things: who are you in meatspace? what data are you talking about? this would be circumstantial evidence, at best
00:20 franzkafka Yeah, and I think a random github account would be nothing as well.
00:20 preaction and that isn't the main problem. if the owner of the data has a suspicion, they take you to court. if you, a single person, get taken to court by a massive corporation, you will likely lose
00:21 preaction especially in this space: the atlas companies are dying, because of google maps and online map data. if any of this info can be traced back to them, you can be sure they'll fight hard
00:21 franzkafka What a weird area I've entered. This data is sold online, yet I am worried about giving it away.
00:22 preaction you should be worried about giving it away specifically because it is sold by others
00:22 franzkafka This is pretty much exactly what I have: http://zipcodedownload.com/Products/Product/Z5Commercial/Standard/Overview
00:22 franzkafka I don't have all that information, but a lot of it I do.
00:24 preaction and because of the situation i've been describing, i make sure that i explicitly spell out the ways the data i create can be used. my Perl code is Artistic. my blogs are CC-BY-SA. other code is MIT or GPL based on if i care or don't care if people make money without helping the project itself
00:24 preaction in the absence of any indication, you must assume the data is private and cannot be shared, which is another fun part of all this
00:26 sri just put it on tor with a .onion address ;p
00:26 preaction even facebook is on tor now
00:26 sri with a vanity .onion address no less
00:27 sri https://facebookcorewwwi.onion
00:28 preaction there's also freenet, that's still a thing, i think
00:30 preaction ooh, still under active development even
00:30 jberger when I used to TA physics classes, one class the textbook had a solutions manual that I knew the kids had access to if they looked for it
00:30 jberger what most didn't know though, the solutions manual had an errata!
00:30 * sri sets jberger on fire again
00:31 jberger there were a few questions that the solution was wrong and indeed a nonsensical typ
00:31 jberger o
00:31 jberger I used to nail the students that way
00:31 preaction phrasing!
00:31 purl phrasing is just wonderful.  riders are "on the attack" or "dropping off"
00:31 jberger slaps preaction with a trout
00:31 jberger (intentional)
00:32 jberger franzkafka: I wonder if data sources would add a bad bit of info that they KNEW they had added
00:32 sri http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52283121.jpg
00:32 preaction sri++ # gets it
00:32 jberger http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/039/078/1257.jpg
00:33 preaction except that archer picture is not when he said that line ;)
00:33 jberger sri: don't you miss convos
00:33 sri jberger: *sob*
00:33 preaction if you're using OS X, Textual is what i've got, and does inline images
00:34 * sri uses tmux+irssi atm
00:35 sri for textual i would have to use a bouncer, and then i can't use it on my phone anymore... since all android irc clients suck
00:36 preaction ah, fair
00:36 * jberger doesn't hate AndChat
00:36 preaction on the mobile devices, i use colloquy, which is iOS. koolaid is tasty. it's strawberry!
00:36 sri materian design or gtfo
00:36 sri s/materian/material/
00:37 jberger material design is like what? three weeks old?
00:37 sri it's sooooo pretty
00:37 franzkafka jberger, that is a really good point actually.
00:37 franzkafka jberger, I'd be like a kid in your class, haha
00:38 sri most of my android apps are actually already material design
00:38 preaction franzkafka: it does happen. there should be a few articles on the web about it
00:38 sri not that i use ver many thougg
00:38 franzkafka what happened to convos?
00:39 sri but the ssh client happens to kick ass, so tmux+irssi is not too bad mobile
00:39 sri juicessh++
00:40 jberger I like juicessh
00:40 jberger franzkafka: I still use it
00:40 jberger the demo app got banned from irc.perl.org
00:40 jberger but there is no restriction against using it from a personal installation
00:40 franzkafka jberger, yeah I saw that. I used to use the demo app too :/
00:41 jberger deploy your own, its really easy
00:41 woz joined #mojo
00:42 sri jberger: it shouldn't require a database
00:42 jberger apt-get install redis-server; cpanm Convos; convos daemon &
00:43 jberger maybe not, but I don't have time to hack on a backend for it, so I just use that
00:44 jberger I have an old desktop that runs it, I don't use it for much else
00:44 jberger I used to host cpan_mojo on it but then batman took it over
00:44 jberger I assume it was on the same host that got banned
00:44 frankzkafka joined #mojo
00:45 frankzkafka Aw, can't do a CTCP version :/
00:46 frankzkafka Alright, using Convos again. I hate xchat, but it comes installed on Xubuntu and I'm too lazy to install irssi.
00:46 frankzkafka This is better.
00:46 jberger frankzkafka: they might take command patches
00:47 jberger I've noticed that it doesn't understand whowas
00:47 frankzkafka Hm, it also doesn't understand ignore
00:47 frankzkafka that's fine with me honestly, I never really use /ctcp, /ignore, etc.
00:47 * frankzkafka is testing me.
00:47 frankzkafka yeah, everything I do use is here.
00:48 frankzkafka I forgot about /whowas
00:48 frankzkafka this interface is pretty nice.
00:48 frankzkafka I think the ability to theme it would be awesome.
00:48 jberger https://twitter.com/bobfaist/status/535609280398114816
00:49 jberger http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/27000000/Haters-gonna-hate-x3-skilene-27010286-900-600.jpg
00:49 jberger that's the kind of stuff I can't live without anymore
00:50 * jberger remembers he needs to add the xkcd patch!
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00:53 sri YOU'RE USING THE MEME WRONG!
00:53 jberger sri: I'm waaaay past using the meme, I'm just enjoying clocking through the google image search
00:54 sri jberger: anyway, you still have to find a solution for the #!perl problem
00:54 jberger my ridiculous bash snippet didn't fix my problem on FWBM
00:55 jberger so my motivation waned
00:55 preaction perl $( which convos ) ;)
00:56 frankzkafka that is awesome. I don't have to click the link anymore.
00:56 jberger sri: the only thing I can think of, you wouldn't like
00:56 jberger release tool that rewrites #!/usr/bin/env perl to #!perl when building the dist
00:56 sri don't tell me what to do!
00:56 jberger actually, I hate that too
00:56 sri i love that
00:56 jberger hhahhaha
00:57 sri ...NOT!
00:57 jberger no, seriously
00:57 jberger ?
00:57 jberger HAHahahahHA
00:57 jberger timing on that was perfect
00:57 frankzkafka http://paste.scsys.co.uk/446062
00:57 jberger frankzkafka: some of the paste sites are implemented
00:57 jberger gist
00:57 sri jberger: not sure if we are even talking about the same problem
00:58 sri it's funny really
00:58 sri the scripts already don't work in a git clone of mojo
00:58 sri since we removed the use lib stuff
00:58 frankzkafka https://gist.github.com/philfreo/7257723
00:59 jberger sri: really? why not?
00:59 purl i guess really? why not is the binary format closed?
00:59 frankzkafka Oh that is awesome.
00:59 jberger purl: forget really? why not
00:59 purl jberger: I forgot really? why not
00:59 sri jberger: either, your perl ends up using another version you alreayd have installed, or complains it can't find the modules
01:00 sri they are not in @INC
01:00 sri for our scripts it makes no difference at all anymore if we switch to #!perl
01:00 preaction ooh, make a script called "plrun" and it just does "perl $@"
01:00 sri it might even prevent problems
01:01 sri BUT!
01:01 sri the real problem now is consistency
01:01 sri the docs and generators have to use a working shebang
01:02 jberger docs and generators could still use #!/usr/bin/env perl
01:02 sri (just search for /usr/bin/env in the repo)
01:02 jberger we should just recommend changing it for cpanm distributable modules
01:04 sri jberger: i expect your pull request soon!
01:06 jberger sri: I thought this title used to be something like "Installable applications": http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/Growing#Script
01:07 jberger notice it mentions "installable scripts" but it doesn't give much context about that
01:08 sri that does make it complicated indeed
01:08 jberger I would move that #Script to below #Simplified-tests and rename it "Installable Script"
01:08 sri the section is supposed to make the script look exactly like the one we generate
01:09 sri what does the script have to do with tests?
01:09 sri it's not even used for full app tests
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01:09 jberger I just wouldn't mention CPANable installation before testing
01:10 sri well, it's not really installable
01:10 sri since the shebang line is wrong
01:10 jberger oh: http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/Cookbook#Making-your-application-installable
01:10 jberger I was looking in the wrong place
01:11 sri if we don't consider the script installable, the use lib fix is not necessary either
01:11 jberger sri: I can accept that
01:11 sri this is turning into a bit of a mess
01:11 jberger sri: no I think this is good
01:12 sri you still have to explain all that to our users!
01:12 jberger put the lib fix and the shebang fix into the cookbook section
01:12 jberger it makes growing cleaner, it makes the cookbook more correct
01:12 sri no seriously, this would be inconsistent if we don't consider the old shebang installable anymore
01:13 jberger I think 99% of mojo apps aren't distributed via cpan
01:13 jberger so using env is fine
01:13 sri the sentence would still be wrong though
01:13 sri "Only a few small details change, since installable scripts can't use lib without breaking updated dual-life modules."
01:14 jberger right, I would move that to the cookbook
01:14 sri that implies the script is installable, which it isn't
01:14 sri umm
01:14 jberger let the generated app keep using lib
01:15 sri allright... i'll wait for the pull request
01:15 jberger put both of those comments (lib and #!perl) in the cookbook
01:15 * jberger puts down the xkcd patch again
01:15 sri then you need a new sentence to separate those two code blocks
01:15 jberger sri: of course
01:17 jberger sri: actually the whole #Script section of Growing can go away if the generated app uses lib
01:18 sri just don't break the guide
01:18 jberger how would I break it?
01:18 jberger just wait for the PR, I think it will make sense
01:29 s1037989 Opinions about extending Minion to also be able to report how long a job took as well as other meta data such as which user owns the job?
01:34 good_news_everyon joined #mojo
01:34 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger created installable (+1 new commit): http://git.io/6CFwzw
01:34 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 2ccaefe Joel Berger: use #!perl for installation and recommend it for installable scripts
01:34 good_news_everyon left #mojo
01:35 jberger sri: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/710/files
01:36 jberger ooops, path trees too
01:40 good_news_everyon joined #mojo
01:40 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/NIX0sw
01:40 good_news_everyon mojo/installable bdb7f92 Joel Berger: fix path tree and a typo
01:40 good_news_everyon left #mojo
01:42 jberger oh, hmmmm
01:43 jberger the installable section in Cookbook uses my_app rather than myapp
01:43 sri and you broke the guide
01:43 jberger was ^ it
01:43 jberger ?
01:43 sri the whole point of the growing guide was to end up with somethig similar to what the generator gives you
01:43 sri now you have myapp.pl
01:44 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/710/files#diff-d480d8a78e0d9377a0a3919978f0da51L779
01:44 sri a script directory matters
01:45 jberger then why not recommend that from the beginning?
01:45 jberger simple enough to fix
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01:47 sri is that proper english? "...small details change. We change.."
01:50 jberger sri: it is fine, but it is the wrong voice
01:51 sri i kinda want to dislike the changes, but otherwise they do seem to make sense
01:52 jberger sri: opinions on myapp (Growing) vs my_app (Cookbook)?
01:52 sri the shebang situation is shitty... and i guess after 2 years of waiting, it makes sense to finally act and use separate ones in the docs :/
01:52 sri jberger: my_app is correct
01:53 sri it's what mojo generate app gets you
01:53 jberger should I even do the chmod dance then?
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01:54 sri hmm
01:54 sri i guess not
01:54 sri no wait
01:55 sri we do
01:55 jberger so it should be left in Growing then
01:55 sri non-installable apps are called with ./script/my_app
01:56 sri only installable have the wrong shebang line
01:57 sri so, nothing changes with the chmod stuff
01:57 sri in fact, if you change it, tons of stuff breaks
01:57 jberger right, so move it back to growing in my PR
01:59 sri and if you move the script earlier, fix all references to it
02:00 sri the app looks worse with the script moved so early :S
02:01 sri much less hybrid
02:01 sri killing the premise a bit
02:01 jberger up to you
02:02 sri not saying don't do it, but please keep the flow the same
02:02 sri no hacked up sections or titles that suddenly don't make sense
02:02 jberger anyway, I'm changing myapp(.pl)? to my_app(.pl)? throughout Growing
02:03 sri lite apps have a .pl, full apps don't
02:03 sri and it is myapp.pl for the lite app
02:03 sri script/my_app for the full app
02:05 sri (that's the way the generators work)
02:08 sri anyway, i'll just let you work now
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02:08 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/3rsh8A
02:08 good_news_everyon mojo/installable f9e57d1 Joel Berger: lite scripts are myapp.pl, full are script/my_app
02:08 good_news_everyon left #mojo
02:09 jberger in Cookbook this feels awkward: Finally C<myapp.pl> can be replaced with an installable L<Mojolicious> script.
02:10 jberger besides the file name of course :/
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02:12 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/9pK16g
02:12 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 2e30138 Joel Berger: better phrasing in Cookbook regarding installable scripts
02:12 good_news_everyon left #mojo
02:13 sri aaaaaaargh
02:13 sri hahahaha
02:13 purl LOLCON 4 reached.
02:13 sri you only keep the C<FindBin> to tease me right? ;p
02:14 sri your commits killed my comment about it twice now
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02:16 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/rd8T2Q
02:16 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 00bcfe1 Joel Berger: The script move/rename should be above the script in Growing
02:16 good_news_everyon left #mojo
02:17 jberger commits killed the comment? I assumed you removed them
02:17 jberger oops, that should be L
02:18 sri commits vanish when you chenge the block they belong to
02:18 sri umm
02:18 sri comments
02:18 purl comments are lying. next_for_GC *is* the GC marking mechanism right now
02:19 jberger purl you really are full of useless info today!
02:19 purl ...but you really is a pile of crap....
02:19 purl ...but you really are a pile of crap....
02:19 jberger hahahaha
02:19 purl LOLCON 4 reached.
02:19 jberger botsnack
02:19 purl thanks jberger :)
02:19 sri lol
02:19 * thowe would really like to be able to go to a YAPC...
02:19 good_news_everyon joined #mojo
02:19 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/jvUUSg
02:19 good_news_everyon mojo/installable c118ac0 Joel Berger: link to FindBin
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02:20 thowe Would a person with modest skills get much out of it?
02:21 sri indubitably
02:21 jberger thowe: highly recommended
02:22 thowe I should just bite the bullet, putit on a credit card, and live it up.
02:22 jberger thowe: which YAPC?
02:22 purl which YAPC are you at now?
02:23 jberger NA?
02:23 purl i guess NA is a pretty good gig or north america or Not Available or Non-Alchololic or must be confusing, I wonder how many people have lost dates while attempting to advertise their purity or north america
02:23 thowe NA
02:23 * jberger tapes purls mouth shut
02:23 sri jberger: do the tests actually run after you move the script?
02:24 sri yea, i don't think they do
02:25 jberger ?!
02:25 sri the tests do require "$FindBin::Bin/../myapp.pl";
02:25 sri and are changed later on
02:26 jberger harumph
02:27 sri this is why i was so worried about the flow ;p
02:27 sri all the things depend on each other
02:27 sri a lot of sentences may not make sense anymore because you're now learning stuff earlier or later
02:27 thowe Salt lake city...  I can do salt lake.  Wait...  Don't they have funny beer laws there?
02:28 sri the whole test driven development angle at the end doesn't work anymore
02:28 sri since now the tests are fixed way early
02:28 sri s/are/need to be/
02:28 jberger thowe: the laws are a little funny, but don't worry too much
02:29 jberger oddly the liquor laws are less odd, so if that tickles your tongue too, its ok
02:29 jberger sri: hmmmmm
02:29 * jberger sobs
02:29 sri jberger: make sure to read the whole thing ensure the examples actually work!
02:29 * jberger opens a beer with >3.2% alcohol to drown the sorrow
02:29 thowe Looks like they have relaxed them.  I'm not a big drinker, but I like my two beers at night to be good ones.
02:30 woz joined #mojo
02:30 jberger sri: the change could be less agressive in Growing
02:31 jberger I don't need to remove the second script section (merged with the first)
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02:37 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/TFLnPg
02:37 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 5e86331 Joel Berger: be a little less aggressive in changes to Growing
02:37 good_news_everyon left #mojo
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02:38 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/rdnkug
02:38 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 7b220fe Joel Berger: remove unintended newline
02:38 good_news_everyon left #mojo
02:38 jberger sri: does that look better
02:38 jberger ?
02:42 jberger maybe "to follow a traditional CPAN structure"?
02:45 jberger or some such
02:45 * jberger forgets when Yar dies, it must be coming up soon
02:45 sri jberger: oh, i like that
02:47 sri jberger: just a typo
02:47 sri C<my_app> follow the CPAN standard.
02:48 sri jberger: other +1 from me for merging it
02:48 sri s/other/otherwise/
02:50 sri jberger: actually, you think the installable script should even mess with @INC?
02:50 sri might as well just replace the shebang and remove the use lib
02:51 sri you can't call it with ./script/my_app anyway
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02:51 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/h8vVLA
02:51 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 0093735 Joel Berger: fix typo in Growing
02:51 good_news_everyon left #mojo
02:51 sri so it doesn't really serve a purpose
02:52 jberger can still call it with perl script/my_app
02:52 jberger which I do when testing Galileo all the time
02:52 jberger (I bet the shebang in Galileo is wrong too)
02:53 sri hmm
02:54 sri jberger: anyway, you can merge it
02:57 jberger should I squash first? its been a messy pr
02:57 sri naah, it's good for your stats :)
02:57 sri unless you want to hide your mistakes
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02:58 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to installable: http://git.io/tlZvaA
02:58 good_news_everyon mojo/installable 2e19c43 Joel Berger: update Changes
02:58 good_news_everyon left #mojo
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02:58 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ZiY_cw
02:58 good_news_everyon mojo/master 0339047 Joel Berger: Merge pull request #710 from kraih/installable...
02:58 good_news_everyon left #mojo
03:00 sri jberger++
03:01 sri OMG
03:01 sri you've committed the worst of all sins
03:02 jberger oh no
03:02 jberger what did I do?
03:02 jberger 79 chars? I tried, where did I miss it?
03:03 jberger perltidy didn't seem to work on .pod files
03:04 good_news_everyon joined #mojo
03:04 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/4Q19UQ
03:04 good_news_everyon mojo/master 3239ff8 Sebastian Riedel: removed trailing whitespace
03:04 good_news_everyon left #mojo
03:05 jberger zOMG, vim airline has failed me!
03:06 sri ohoh, no more joking
03:06 sri you broke the hypnotoad tests
03:07 sri i should have known that :(
03:08 jberger oh crap
03:10 * jberger puts on the silly looking tie
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03:11 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vejBsg
03:11 good_news_everyon mojo/master fe6ddcf Sebastian Riedel: reverted shebang change
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03:11 sri first time i've reverted a dozen commits
03:12 * jberger weeps openly
03:12 sri the trick is "git checkout -f <COMMIT> -- .; git commit -a -m '...'"
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03:15 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/-iqTrw
03:15 good_news_everyon mojo/master ee38eb0 Sebastian Riedel: the script should be called my_app
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03:16 sri you might be able to fix it with blib hacks or so
03:16 sri dunno when the shebang gets rewritten
03:17 sri of course "prove -l -v t/mojo/hypnotoad.t" would never work
03:18 jberger I made it work :-)
03:18 sri Oo
03:18 jberger http://pastie.org/9739430
03:18 sri oh
03:18 jberger I'm not sure I would want to release it without xplatform testing
03:20 jberger in fact, I wonder if that was what was breaking my testing for FWBM
03:21 jberger it execs $0 directly using the wrong perl
03:21 sri this might actually fix problems we didn't know we had
03:26 sri i can confirm that it works on os x
03:27 * jberger fires up windows vm
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03:30 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/F_z6kw
03:30 good_news_everyon mojo/master e17d1c9 Sebastian Riedel: bring back the shebang change
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03:31 sri i can confirm that it works on os x and ubuntu
03:31 sri jberger: hypnotoad is unix only
03:35 sri TIL installing IO::Socket::IP on perl 5.10.1 requires at leat 15 other modules to be installed/updated
03:37 jberger yeah, it doesn't matter anyway, I can't get my windows vm to install anything :(
03:37 sri hypnotoad tests pass fine on 5.10.1 and 5.20.1 on os x though
03:37 * jberger hates redmond's folly
03:38 sri a *bsd tester would be cool
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03:38 sri just clone master and run "make clean; perl Makefile.PL; TEST_POD=1 TEST_HYPNOTOAD=1 TEST_MORBO=1 TEST_PREFORK=1 TEST_EV=1 TEST_ONLINE=1 TEST_IPV6=1 TEST_TLS=1 TEST_SOCKS=1 HARNESS_OPTIONS=j9 make test"
03:39 preaction give me a few seconds
03:43 preaction didn't set up a devenv on this box, so it'll be a little bit yet...
03:49 jberger http://i.imgur.com/IxO2pCF.jpg
03:52 preaction All tests successful. Result: PASS
03:53 sri \o/
03:53 jberger preaction++
03:53 sri preaction++
03:53 sri what *bsd?
03:53 preaction openbsd 5.something
03:53 preaction 5.5
03:57 sri i guess "exec $^X, $ENV{HYPNOTOAD_EXE}" would be more correct
03:58 jberger sri: I'll leave that up to you
03:59 sri actually, i guess it doesn't matter, perldoc mentions both
04:00 jberger sri: what doc?
04:00 purl i think doc is http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/~sburke/pub/doc_bad.html
04:00 sri perldoc -f exec
04:00 * jberger slaps purl with a fish
04:00 * purl slaps jberger with comically large fish in return
04:01 nicomen funny purl
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04:03 jberger there's some scary stuff in there! start at "If you don't really want to execute the first argument ..."
04:04 jberger sri: I might tend to suggest the list form to avoid all chance of shell out
04:04 jberger shellshock and all that
04:09 phillipadsmith Is there a way to test status_is(200) or status_is(404) in Test::Mojo?
04:09 phillipadsmith Or, put another way, what is the best way to test an or condition for status_is ?
04:09 preaction how could it be both?
04:09 phillipadsmith Well, it couldn't … but here's the thing...
04:10 phillipadsmith I'm trying to fix this test elegantly, https://github.com/tempire/mojolicious-plugin-consolelogger/blob/master/t/logger.t#L35
04:10 phillipadsmith but Mojolicious seems to have returned 200 at one point for an exception page
04:10 phillipadsmith now it returns 404
04:10 preaction explicitly depend on the version in which it is fixed
04:11 phillipadsmith hrmm...
04:11 preaction or just don't check the status, because it doesn't look like the status matters
04:11 phillipadsmith well, I'm just trying to avoid the duplication of the chained ->content_like stuff
04:11 phillipadsmith but, yes, I guess I could just drop the status
04:12 jberger phillipadsmith: you can just test the status outside of the chain
04:12 phillipadsmith That would work too
04:12 preaction what mojolicious returns for a status code for an exception isn't what you want to test, you want to test that the log messages are part of the resposne
04:12 phillipadsmith Right, I guess the status doesn't really have anything to do with the log output
04:14 phillipadsmith All tests successful. #Sweet
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04:18 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/YavixQ
04:18 good_news_everyon mojo/master 890aa77 Sebastian Riedel: pass two arguments to exec
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04:18 sri if something goes wrong we'll blame jberger anyway :)
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04:19 * jberger blames tempire, cause, tempire
04:19 sri purl: seen tempire
04:19 purl tempire was last seen on #mojo 1 days, 14 minutes and 20 seconds ago, saying: ☠  [Nov 23 04:05:21 2014]
04:20 sri tempire: you missed the nyan cloud! http://i.imgur.com/QGRXHWQ.png
04:22 phillipadsmith Thanks all. PR sent to tempire, https://github.com/tempire/mojolicious-plugin-consolelogger/pull/6  Looking forward to seeing that on CPAN ;)
04:23 phillipadsmith sri: I don't know if Mojo::IOLoop::Server->generate_port is the most forward-looking way to do that… so let me know if there's something more "future proof" to be using there.
04:24 sri that's an odd test
04:24 sri without working sockets there's like literally 8000 tests in mojolicious that would fail
04:25 sri safe to assume it does nothing
04:26 phillipadsmith Ha!
04:27 phillipadsmith I wondered about that… Anyway, I'll let tempire remove it, if and when it fails. :)
04:28 phillipadsmith It was using Mojo::IOLoop->generate_port before, which was depreciated at some point, so that was failing right off the top.
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04:58 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/cr701Q
04:58 good_news_everyon mojo/master 1ec8587 Sebastian Riedel: slightly better example for nested routes
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05:00 Grinnz better indeed
05:01 jberger sri++
05:01 sri :D
05:03 thowe ha figgin ha...  :P
05:04 thowe \m/
05:09 thowe They apparently do direct flights from the local airport here to Salt Lake.  I'm totally gonna go.
05:09 jberger thowe: where are you?
05:10 thowe Central Oregon
05:11 thowe Bend.
05:11 thowe The town next door is Redmond, and they have an airport that does some UNited flights.
05:12 jberger cool, see you there!
05:12 crab what is in salt lake?
05:12 preaction YAPC 2015
05:12 thowe YAPC:NA
05:13 jberger there are so many Perlers in Oregon (Portland mostly), I'm kinda surprised that there hasn't been a YAPC::NA there
05:13 jberger yes I know that the tradition has been to be on the eastern half because of OSCON, but still
05:14 thowe I've never met anyone else in person who programs in Perl.
05:15 thowe I'm trying to get a couple guys at work into it.
05:17 thowe Portland would be a nice place for it.  There is a lot you can do on foot.
05:17 thowe Summers in the Valley are fantastic.
05:18 thowe Beer is good.  I would be able to drive.
05:18 jberger I've been to a conference at the Portland convention center (which would probably be too large for YAPC::NA) but I did enjoy it quite a bit
05:18 thowe Oh, and they have the Powel's Technical book store.
05:18 thowe Everyone should check that out at least once.
05:19 jberger yep, went to Powell's
05:19 jberger I didn't make it to Voodoo Donut, but my wife did
05:19 thowe Normal Powell's is cool too.
05:19 sri literally all i know about portland http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/keep-portland-weird.gif
05:19 jberger is that mst?
05:19 jberger :-P
05:20 sri hahaha, i thought the same thing ;p
05:20 preaction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZt-pOc3moc <- literally all i know about portland
05:20 thowe Does mst play the pipes?
05:20 thowe that song never gets old.  And it is very Portland.
05:20 preaction it's also extremely Madison, WI ;)
05:22 thowe Every scene on that show looks like my brother-in-law's house.
05:36 tempire voodoo donuts aren't all that great.
05:36 tempire It's more hype than anything.
05:36 tempire But it's still worth going.
05:36 tempire sri: I saw it!
05:37 tempire sri, jberger: you saw my last email asking for ideas, right?
05:37 tempire It's ok if you don't have any, I just want to make sure the word is going out.
05:37 tempire also, batman ^
05:37 tempire and marcus ^
05:37 * tempire feels alone
05:38 jberger tempire: I think themed workshop examples is an awesome idea
05:38 jberger do they have an api or would it be scraping?
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05:41 sri hahaha
05:42 sri they are notorious for banning scrapers and not having an api
05:45 sri tempire: traditional things would be poster on stage and logo on the back of the conf shirts
05:46 jberger tbh having a shirt with that logo does us as much good as it does for them
05:47 sri tempire: hahaha, we could offer NOT to teach people to scrape the site ;p
05:49 jberger there you go
05:51 sri i could offer to wear a pin with the logo during the conf or so
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05:55 thowe scrape what site?
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05:56 jberger thowe: sorry, non public info is leaking into the channel
05:57 tempire no one responds to PMs anymore
05:57 tempire Now I know what sri feels like when he asks for code reviews
05:57 sri hey, i keep saying don't query me ;p
05:58 sri i don't see them since i use irssi
05:58 thowe Ah.  So, at YAPC...  Should I arrive the day before?  Leave the day after?  Do folks tend to try to room share?
05:59 tempire I arrived the day before when I went to yapc
05:59 sri day before and day after for me too
06:00 thowe will a scedule be posted?
06:00 jberger I will probably be out there longer since I have a friend in the area
06:00 sri evening before is usually social events
06:00 tempire The last evening of the 2012 yapc was pretty light, from what I recall.
06:00 tempire Then again, I'm not really a drinker, so maybe I wasn't invited to the cool hipster parties
06:01 sri wait wait wait... there's a beer problem in utah?
06:01 tempire There's plenty.
06:01 tempire Don't you worry.
06:01 thowe It seems less so since 2009.
06:01 sri phew
06:01 thowe Only 3.2% on tap, but others available in bottles.
06:02 thowe according to some travel site I saw, anyway.
06:05 thowe I wonder if I can smuggle some Fernet and bourbon in...
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06:06 thowe liquids on planes still a thing?  I haven't flown in a decade
06:07 tempire <= 3oz for carryones
06:07 tempire luggage, no problem
06:07 tempire *carryons
06:07 thowe hrm.  I would try to avoid checking a bag...
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06:08 thowe Shouldn't be hard to travel light in June.
06:11 crab these days they squeeze you before letting you into the plane, just to make sure all your internal liquids are removed
06:11 crab being a dried-out husk is /really/ travelling light
06:13 thowe booking.com doesn't do plane flights, huh?
06:23 frankzkafka I live in Portland
06:23 frankzkafka Terrible, terrible place to live
06:24 frankzkafka Pip's Doughnuts is far better
06:24 frankzkafka Probably the best doughnut I've ever had honestly.
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06:31 crab pip's doughnuts is far better than portland?
06:31 tempire on average, they certainly taste better
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06:34 crab i have some bags of portland cement.
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08:36 frankzkafka Oh, than Voodoo I meant :D
08:36 frankzkafka Fresno, CA is better than Portland, haha
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10:25 frankzkafka Holy crap, there can be multiple cities with the same name in a single state.
10:26 frankzkafka I seriously figured a city name was unique to each state. I know there's a Portland, OR and a Portland, ME (i.e., duplicate city names across states), but I had no idea there could be a Portland, OR and a Portland, OR that are two completely different places.
10:27 frankzkafka E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown,_Pennsylvania
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10:30 ghandi|work Hi There! Is there an shortcut to use the Route-Names from MyApp when accessing the App via Test::Mojo. e.g.: $test->get_ok("MyRootName")
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13:02 jberger ghandi|work: see url_for
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14:39 jkramer Ahoy again
14:45 crab ahoy to you too.
14:47 crab (are we individuals on the same ship, or different ships docked at the same port?)
14:49 jkramer Different ships coincidentally meeting in the middle of the ocean
14:50 jkramer I'm still struggling with Mojo::DOM :( By now I'm pretty sure Mojo::DOM buggy, but maybe someone can have a look at my script and tell me what I'm doing wrong: http://dpaste.com/1JQK0V3
14:52 jkramer The stripping seems except for some tags (header, span, ..?). Also comments and empty tags are not removed
14:53 jkramer Oh and there are a couple of warnings coming from inside of Mojo::DOM
15:00 sri and the bugs are?
15:02 jkramer What I just described. Or do you mean the warnings?
15:02 sri you did not describe anything
15:03 sri that paste is useless without the html
15:03 jkramer Oh, ok wait a second
15:06 jkramer Try this one: http://nex.scrapping.cc/tmp/test.html
15:06 jkramer But I tested with several pages, always get the same or similar problems
15:09 jkramer What I want to do is remove the tags in @remove completely and 'strip' the tags that are not in %keep. Both only work partially, some tags are not stripped/removed.
15:11 jkramer Slightly modified version that should work better, but the result is actually worse: http://dpaste.com/263V06E
15:12 Nei maybe it's not permitted to do that in a loop?
15:12 jkramer What would be different if I unrolled the loop?
15:15 * sri will take a look at it later
15:15 jkramer Thanks
15:17 jkramer I tried with this and it doesn't yield any warnings, but the result is still not what I expect. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Gruene-Straftaten-gegen-Datensouveraenitaet-der-Buerger-konsequent-verfolgen-2462541.html
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16:05 sri jkramer: there actually is a bug
16:05 jkramer Yay
16:06 jkramer So I'm not crazy
16:06 sri $dom->at('body')->find('*') would include the initial <body> element in the results
16:06 sri when of course it should only find children of <body>
16:08 sri which means your $dom was trying to ->strip itself out
16:08 Grinnz_ maybe it was playing strip poker
16:09 sri which then caused the following $dom->... calls to fail in funny ways
16:12 sri simpler example would be perl -Ilib -Mojo -E 'say x("<div><div>A</div><div>B</div></div>")->at("div")->at("div")'
16:12 sri it actually ends up with the outer <div>
16:13 jkramer Interesting
16:14 jkramer I found a workaround using all_contents instead of find(*) for now which kind of works for me
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16:17 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/LIEL0g
16:17 good_news_everyon mojo/master ab59ccd Sebastian Riedel: fixed bug in Mojo::DOM::CSS where selected results would also include the current root element
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16:17 sri that's the fix
16:18 sri btw. your selectors are terribly inefficient
16:19 sri jkramer: if you want to whitelist elements you could just do ->find(':not(h1, h2, h3)')->map('strip')
16:20 sri that's one tree scan
16:20 sri if you call ->find() over and over that's a new tree scan every time
16:26 sri new release should be out later today, since i want to see how the shebang changes work out in the real world
16:31 jkramer sri: Cool, I didn't know you can list several tags in :not(). Will try
16:33 jkramer sri: Another question, maybe you can help: When I process all nodes with ->all_contents->each(\&some_sub), and within some_sub() I pick a node, is it possible all the content of the node later on? Or is it tied to the tree somehow?
16:35 jkramer I'm actually not sure what's the problem here. I do some analysis on a nodes text and other contents, and then when I want to print $node->to_string, it's almost empty
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17:12 jkramer sri: I tried using this selector and it seems to strip everything, including the tags inside :not(): :not(ul h1 br strong img h5 h4 h2 ol p b li h3 i)
17:12 jkramer Argh nevermind, forgot the commas
17:12 jkramer Works, perfect
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17:49 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/WDBffg
17:49 good_news_everyon mojo/master d34b74c Sebastian Riedel: select a little faster
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18:01 * Grinnz_ sees some magic numbers
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18:50 tempire postgres is really frustrating.
18:51 Grinnz_ use mysql and oracle for a week each, then get back to me
18:52 tempire mysql is the easiest ever.
18:52 tempire Oracle is indeed the devil.
18:58 sri tempire: bullshit
19:01 Grinnz_ lol
19:02 Grinnz_ mysql is easy like PHP is easy.
19:02 Grinnz_ other synonyms: cheap hooker
19:02 tempire no arguments there.
19:02 tempire postgres familiarity will come soon enough
19:03 Grinnz_ just be glad you have the option to use it.
19:03 Grinnz_ my project is dependent on another project that will be able to move from mysql when hell freezes over
19:03 sri postgres is love)
19:03 sri !
19:04 sri look at those sql statements, LOOK! https://github.com/kraih/minion/blob/master/lib/Minion/Backend/Pg.pm
19:05 sri it's stuff like this that makes me appreciate postgres $db->query("delete from minion_workers where id = any (?)", \@dead)
19:05 Grinnz_ yay databases that have a concept of arrays!
19:05 sri that's a fricking array with an unknown number of values
19:06 sri and all i need is one ?
19:06 sri ONE QUESTION MARK!!!
19:06 Grinnz_ i'll just sit here with my $in_str = join ',', ('?')x@vals
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19:06 sri tempire: ARE YOU LOOKING?!!!
19:06 sri ONE!!!
19:06 tempire !!!
19:07 * sri goes to get another coffee
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19:52 sri of course i'm still an sql beginner
19:52 cfedde SQL FTW
19:53 sri for years i've basically only done baby sql with ORMs
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19:57 sri strange how mongodb actually made me learn more
19:58 Grinnz_ lol
19:58 Grinnz_ i haven't actually used mongodb
19:59 Grinnz_ our data is extremely relational, though i'm sure some of it would work well in nosql
19:59 cfedde http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ten_thousand.png
19:59 sri say what you will about mongodb, but pushing around data structures is very satisfying
19:59 sri i'm very glad postgres lets me do similar things
20:00 Grinnz_ yeah postgres is like the best of both worlds
20:00 Grinnz_ it even has a json datatype now doesn't it?
20:01 sri json in 9.3, and jsonb in 9.4
20:01 sri json = text with json formatting check, jsonb = json is parsed and stored in an actual binary data strucutre
20:02 Grinnz_ hmm
20:02 sri jsonb is the shit
20:02 Grinnz_ yeah i'm essentially just storing serialized json in binary fields in mysql for a few things :P
20:03 Grinnz_ no validation or parsing of course
20:03 sri http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/static/datatype-json.html
20:04 Grinnz_ jsonb supports indexing eh, so thats probably something like sphinx search's json type
20:04 Grinnz_ which i need to start using...
20:05 cfedde row_to_json and array_to_json are my friends.
20:05 sri tempire: DO THAT WITH MYSQL!!!
20:06 tempire At no point have I said that mysql is better
20:06 tempire I'm just saying it's frustrating to move
20:06 Grinnz_ lol
20:06 Grinnz_ mariaDB actually was adding something about dynamic columns... i wonder what happened with that
20:06 cfedde Legacy has it's own momentum.
20:07 sri i hate that SKIP LOCKED didn't make it into 9.4 though... :( http://michael.otacoo.com/postgresql-2/postgres-9-5-feature-highlight-skip-locked-row-level/
20:08 sri that would have been so nice for minion... now we have to wait another year for 9.5
20:13 sri quite the todo list :o https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Todo
20:14 Grinnz_ lol
20:22 Grinnz_ -bash: syntax error near unexpected token `from'
20:23 Grinnz_ note to self: bash is not mysql
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20:42 Nei anything I can hook to change data in $c->send before it gets sent?
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21:51 Grinnz_ hmm... is there a way i can test for a "truthy" value or "falsy" value with Test::Mojo->json_is instead of an exact value?
21:52 Nei json has true/false as types
21:52 Grinnz_ i mean, if it could be true, false, 1, 0, or undef
21:52 Grinnz_ or anythign else
21:53 Grinnz_ i just want to know if it's true or false
21:53 Grinnz_ (perlish)
21:55 Grinnz_ i guess i could just use the tx and do my own test
21:56 Nei for such cases you probably need to do that
21:56 Grinnz_ yeah that works.
21:57 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Test/Mojo#json_has
21:57 Grinnz_ that sounds like it's only going to tell me if it's there (which isn't sufficient)
21:59 Grinnz_ i just did: ok($t->tx->res->json->{some}{value}, 'Value is true')
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22:29 sri anyone care about escaping slasj in json? https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/693
22:30 sri s/slasj/slash/
22:31 sri right now there is one +1 from marcus, and that's it
22:31 sri i don't think it should pass with only one vote
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22:31 hasan hi all
22:32 hasan does anyone know if socket.io has issues with mojolicious?
22:32 hasan or anything related?
22:32 * sri sometimes wonders if core devs should be required to vote within a certain timeframe
22:33 hasan seems that I can't just use socket.io with mojolicious. io.connect("//localhost:3000/listen") connects to localhost:3000/socket.io/1?transport_longpolling....
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22:55 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/3UPQ5A
22:55 good_news_everyon mojo/master af40ccf Sebastian Riedel: improved Mojo::JSON security by escaping the "/" character (closes #693)
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22:55 sri the power of actually participating in a vote
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23:04 Trelane marcusr: Remember you promised me to write something about Mojo for the main advent calendar?  This is me chasing you
23:05 Trelane In public, so if anyone else wants to write something mojo like (like I asked Marcus to do) they can step in
23:05 Trelane (or not mojo like, but that's more of a general chase to the world than it is something for #mojo)
23:05 * sri jumps out of the moving channel
23:06 Trelane I'm rambling;  marcusr - let me know when you can have the article by (or if you have to bail)
23:11 Grinnz_ sri: this only applies to to_json and not encode_json?
23:12 sri to all
23:12 Grinnz_ why does this sound like it is only applicable to to_json?
23:12 sri it prolly is
23:13 Grinnz_ i don't follow..
23:13 sri doing it only for to_json would be rather expensive
23:13 Grinnz_ right, so why is this issue report only talking about to_json
23:14 Grinnz_ i guess i'm not understanding why to_json would be used in this use case
23:15 Grinnz_ ah, because this is in a template so it gets encoded to utf-8 after?
23:15 Grinnz_ (or whatever)
23:19 Grinnz_ as long as javascript understands it and json decoders understand it, doesn't matter to me :P
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23:34 hasan is it possible to use an eventsource with MojoIOLoop delay?
23:54 Grinnz_ https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojo::IOLoop#max_connections, "before stopping to accept new incoming connections" would be better written as "before it stops accepting new incoming connections"
23:54 Grinnz_ unless i'm misinterpreting it, which is why it should be clarified :P
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23:57 Grinnz_ and question about https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojo::Server::Daemon#max_requests, this means it will handle x requests in a single keep-alive connection right?
23:57 jberger_ Trelane: if marcus can't I probably can put something together
23:58 Grinnz_ i want to make sure it won't be affected by the fact that all requests will be reverse proxied from localhost...
23:58 jberger_ I have a blog post about my tiny redis based chat server
23:58 jberger_ I've been meaning to finish and post it, but it would make a good advent post too

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