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IRC log for #mojo, 2014-12-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:49 franzkafka I really hate Apple for not sticking with standard anything, ever.
00:51 preaction thunderbolt _is_ a standard. IBM invented it years back
00:52 preaction lightning, well, all the standards for that are crap
00:54 franzkafka IBM invented it years back and who's using it?
00:55 preaction only now, the usb type-c connector, is there something like lightning, but lightning is also back-compat with the old iphone connector, which includes analog outputs for things. usb is just serial
00:56 preaction sorry, Intel invented it, my bad
00:56 franzkafka Are you saying that an iPhone 5 charger can be used to charge an iPhone 4?
00:56 franzkafka BTW, jberger, I feel your pain. My work made me get a mac as well.
00:56 preaction with the adapter, yes
00:56 preaction some pins were removed, the pins that were left were reorganized into the lightning cable
00:57 franzkafka Apple is ridiculous. What exactly is wrong with DisplayPort, USB3, etc?
00:57 franzkafka I can charge a Galaxy S4 with my Note3 charger, no adapter needed.
00:57 franzkafka Any not sure if this is true, but I've heard Mac desktops PCI slots are M shaped.
00:57 preaction using the usb type-b connector, which is about as wide as an elephant
00:58 preaction then they would not be PCI slots
00:58 franzkafka yeah, that doesn't seem to be true
00:58 franzkafka I don't know, it just seems like Apple does crap so you have to buy their stuff, making things more expensive, etc.
00:59 preaction os x doesn't have drivers for every possible PCI card, though, that's what apple doesn't do that microsoft does
00:59 franzkafka s/Microsoft/Linux
00:59 preaction does crap like make all their stuff work really really well together? those monsters
00:59 franzkafka I have used a x86 PC for 15+ years now with Linux without any issue. Many different ones too.
01:00 franzkafka And charge a huge markup for an Apple logo, all while paying their slaves who make the products terrible wages? Yeah, they're monsters.
01:00 preaction looks like lenovo and dell are (finally) building thunderbolt ports in their stuff
01:00 franzkafka So that hipsters can look cool in the coffee shop and geek can be the new cool thing.
01:01 preaction geek's been cool so long that hipsters are shunning it
01:01 * franzkafka is angry because work made him use an Apple.
01:01 preaction congratulations?
01:01 franzkafka yeah, that is true enough, since probably around 2000 or so.
01:01 purl congratulations are in order, if so.
01:01 franzkafka congratulations on what?
01:01 franzkafka On being given a shitty overpriced laptop?
01:01 preaction being angry? being forced to use a mac?
01:02 franzkafka Ah, thank you.
01:02 mst I love my 27" iMac. I call it "the TV"
01:02 mst my workstation at the office is a debian desktop
01:02 mst and then my traveling machine is a thinkpad tablet 2 running windows
01:03 mst tools, jobs, etc.
01:03 franzkafka mst, that's another thing I don't get: apt-get.
01:03 mst I don't want to be a desktop linux admin ... and OS X's X11 support is fucking insane, so it's easier to do that under cygwin on windows
01:03 franzkafka That's debian right?
01:03 preaction yes
01:03 mst yes. every other way of installing software needs to meet or beat that standard
01:04 franzkafka OK, so I did have a choice. I could have gone with Windows. The only rule was that I could not use Linux. I chose the Apple, but I am finding it frustrating.
01:04 preaction okay, see, that's a stupid rule
01:04 franzkafka are you saying apt-get is thee standard?
01:04 preaction no, it's the bare minimum
01:04 mst right
01:04 franzkafka mst, wait... what about yum?
01:05 mst franzkafka, wait, what about PHP?
01:05 franzkafka mst, I don't get debians naming. I can never figure out what package I want.
01:05 franzkafka mst, no need to be rude ;)
01:05 preaction and i don't get red hat's naming, i can never figure out what package i want
01:05 mst I've used yum in production. there's totally a need to be rude.
01:05 franzkafka mst, comparing something as great as yum to PHP?
01:05 mst awful pile of fetid crap.
01:06 franzkafka whoa, you're kidding. yum install x-devel... finding lib packages on debian, pain in the ass 1/2 the time.
01:06 preaction debian: apt-get install x-dev
01:06 mst exactly
01:06 preaction 6 of one, half-dozen of the other
01:06 mst yum+rpm is PHP, apt-get+dpkg is perl, for me
01:06 franzkafka No, no. A lot of the time they are lib<this>, lib<that>
01:06 mst no they aren't
01:06 mst you don't know how to use debian yet
01:07 preaction yes, libthis-dev is the dev libs. yum also does the same thing. if upstream is named "libsyck", then you install "libsyck"
01:07 franzkafka I don't know how to use apt-get. That's probably true enough. I've always felt yum to be more intuitive.
01:07 preaction they're so similar that i get tripped up every time i try to use yum
01:07 franzkafka My only complaint and move away from RHEL, CentOS, etc is that they moved to systemd
01:07 preaction so (did/is/was/will) debian
01:07 franzkafka yeah, I know
01:08 franzkafka and Arch Linux
01:08 purl Arch Linux is probably not as cool as demi linux.
01:08 mst yum is easier to get started with
01:08 preaction so i took the only option: move to (Free|Open)BSD
01:08 franzkafka I'm now running Slackware again.
01:08 mst then you have an actual problem and get stuck
01:08 franzkafka No, Slackware didn't make the move.
01:08 mst yeah, I'm wondering if devuan.org will live
01:08 mst my personal systems always used to be slackware+pkgsrc
01:09 franzkafka Interesting, they forked Debian in an effort to stay away from systemd eh?
01:09 franzkafka Hm, I've never heard of this project before.
01:09 franzkafka mst, I don't get it, what's so bad about yum?
01:10 mst franzkafka: most PHP programmers don't get what's so bad about PHP
01:10 mst then they learn perl
01:10 mst then it's obvious
01:11 mst most mysql users don't get why people prefer postgresql
01:11 mst then they learn SQL
01:11 mst then it's obvious
01:11 Grinnz I disagree, yum/rpm/repoquery are a comprehensive and powerful set of tools
01:11 Grinnz they don't show the obvious bad practices of PHP/MySQL
01:12 franzkafka mst, OK, so you're saying apt-get is the gold standard then? That if I learn apt-get really well, I will realize what is so bad about yum?
01:12 franzkafka I'm going to do it then, because I really want to see what's so bad about yum. Now I am intrigued ;)
01:12 franzkafka I think I am going to make my Apple boot to runlevel 3 and be happy
01:12 Grinnz i've never "had a problem and got stuck" and I've been using yum/rpm for years
01:12 franzkafka I.e., don't boot to a GUI.
01:12 mst Grinnz: I could be biased because ret had can't build packages to save their lives
01:13 Grinnz packaging is a different matter. :)
01:13 bpmedley franzkafka: I installed CentOS on an old Macbook Pro, perhaps you could install Linux on it.
01:13 mst franzkafka: it occurs to me that I could be wrong
01:14 mst franzkafka: and that actually the real problem is that red hat make shit packages and I've accidentally criticised the program they use to install their broken-ass shit
01:14 Grinnz sure, you can isntall linux on any modern mac
01:14 preaction i used to run ubuntu on my mac, but eventually you have to boot into osx for something that normal people expect you to have (skype, in my case)
01:14 Grinnz preaction, people who expect you to use skype aren't normal people, IMO
01:18 Grinnz as for systemd, the only real problem I have with it is the binary logging
01:18 Grinnz otherwise, it cleans up a good amount of old unix cruft
01:18 mst the scope creep worries me, especially when the systemd cabal have set out a manifesto for controlling your filesystems, packages and versions
01:19 preaction the unix philosophy of being able to take your computer apart and look at it because it's composed of simple parts is dead
01:19 mst FreeBSD's rc.subr clears out the same amount of cruft in a sensible way
01:19 Grinnz right, but i don't put stock in slippery slopes until they happen
01:19 preaction if you want to take your computer apart now, you better be an experienced C programmer
01:19 mst did you read the "we want to replace all package management" article? they plan to skate down it
01:19 mst I was willing to disbelieve until that
01:19 Grinnz preaction, it's dead as soon as people stop wanting to have to twiddle every bit to get it working.
01:20 Grinnz aka. dumb users
01:20 preaction i don't see how systemd solves that
01:20 mst I don't see how systemd solves that better than rc.subr
01:20 Grinnz it fixes stupid init scripts that have no sense of dependencies, it fixes services that don't monitor themselves
01:20 preaction if you tell a user: you must learn bourne shell to use a computer, in the unix philosophy, they now know everything they need to do anything at all
01:21 mst right, because restarting a service is always a fix
01:21 preaction daemontools fixes the latter
01:21 mst it might never be intentional
01:21 mst right
01:21 mst runit does supervisation better
01:21 Grinnz granted
01:21 mst FreeBSD does init scripts better
01:21 mst systemd is a giant bag of NIH by people who don't understand systems programming
01:21 * Grinnz shrugs
01:22 preaction and the former was fixed by a few ways. redhat's own stuff could do it. you add metadata to the script and their scripts built the right init scripts
01:22 preaction i just forget what that's called...
01:22 mst the LSB dependency format
01:22 preaction and it's a standard even!
01:22 mst Daemon::Control defaults to generating it when you ask it to write an init script
01:22 mst perl already solved this
01:22 mst systemd is just nice for people too stupid to solve it
01:23 preaction and moving to ad hominem: the lead dev of systemd appears to have a habit of doing this, and then absconding when it becomes an unmaintainable nightmare
01:23 mst he's not a systems developer.
01:23 mst any more than I'm a UI developer :)
01:23 preaction avahi is how i make my apple shit work with my openbsd router, but barely
01:23 Grinnz i've used jquery!
01:24 mst I know angular backwards
01:24 mst in the sense of "I've read the entire source code"
01:24 mst Lennart PoC-and-ship is not a systems developer
01:24 Grinnz avahi was developed by the same guy?
01:24 preaction also pulseaudio
01:24 preaction yes
01:25 Grinnz well pulseaudio at least works quite well, in my experience
01:25 franzkafka I'm not able to run Linux, OSX or Windows :(
01:25 franzkafka avahi, pulseaudio, systemd
01:25 preaction not when i was using it, but apparently that was ubuntu's fault, not pulseaudio
01:25 franzkafka Then he complains that the open source community is full of meanies
01:25 Grinnz alsa flummoxed me quite thoroughly, before the pulseaudio days
01:26 Grinnz since pulseaudio, things just make snse
01:26 preaction while being one of those meanies he complains about...
01:26 preaction i thought JACK was gonna take over, personally
01:26 mst franzkafka: the systemd author takes criticism slightly worse than sri
01:26 Grinnz lol
01:26 Grinnz where is mlehmann on this scale
01:27 franzkafka Did you guys see his post on Google+?
01:27 mst he implodes based on disagreement, he doesn't even count
01:27 mst oh, do go on
01:28 franzkafka mst, s/slightly/much
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01:28 mst franzkafka: you've been on the receiving end of slightly. I've seen 'much'
01:28 mst other way around
01:28 purl hmmm... other way around is not better
01:28 mst bah
01:29 franzkafka haha, I've not seen much. I don't know, you need thick skin in this field. People are arrogant.
01:29 Grinnz thats one way of putting it
01:29 mst sri isn't arrogant any more than I am. we're just both opinionated bastards. our disagreements stem from the fact that I'm thick skinned and he isn't.
01:31 mst MLEHMANN exists to make all the other german perl hackers look sane, i think
01:31 franzkafka You can't be a programmer and have thin-skin. I've never known a more opinionated, "you're doing it wrong," (yet awesome) community in my life.
01:31 mst kind of a cosmic joke
01:32 franzkafka I remember back in 1998 when I was learning Linux (back then you had to configure X, know your monitors refresh rates, use fips for partitioning, etc), going on IRC and having people basically tell me to fuck myself
01:33 franzkafka Is there a large community of perl hackers in Germany?
01:34 franzkafka I don't know, from my experience it seems like everyone in the US is now a Python or Ruby programmer.
01:34 mst not bad, but basically it's noticeable
01:34 mst because americans are fucking crybabies, and german translated into english is blunt
01:34 mst so I have to referee it all the tinme
01:35 franzkafka I'd love to move to Germany.
01:35 Grinnz you lose connotations a lot of times when translating languages
01:35 franzkafka mst, are there a lot of Mexicans over there?
01:35 mst I've love to firebomb every american who can't understand the difference between "that's a stupid idea" and "you're a stupid person"
01:35 mst apparently that's not legal
01:35 franzkafka haha
01:35 Grinnz lol
01:36 mst franzkafka: in north west england, on the cold wet coast? none that I can think of
01:36 Grinnz it's psychology, people invest in the ideas they come up with
01:36 preaction and we also have a godlike worship of "self-esteem"
01:36 mst yeah, but it's the americans raised under no-fault parenting that get butthurt when you point out their stupid idea is stupid
01:37 mst rather than "oh, shit, thanks for saving me the time I'd've wasted"
01:37 mst which is the usual english response
01:37 preaction or maybe just "oh, why?"
01:37 mst but, no, AMERICA so I WANTED TO WASTE THAT TIME so YOU ARE EVIL AND HAVE DISRESPECTED ME
01:37 mst fucking ridiculous
01:38 mst "east coast middle manager disease", I call it
01:38 franzkafka I have to take my son to therapy right now for reasons not really related to him. We were at the therapist and she said to me, "You are a plow parent. Do you know what that is? You plow every hardship out of his way, make life as easy as possible on him. You're the type of parent who created the Millenials."
01:38 franzkafka Man, I was just like, "fuck..."
01:38 preaction but i was told that's what being a good parent is!
01:39 dabudabu I'm worried I'd be a parent like that too
01:39 mst yeah, a generation of american bullshit fucking up the parents and the kids
01:39 preaction nah, i got a rule: at 13, i'm out. i'm an advisor, not a shield
01:39 franzkafka dabudabu, It's really hard not to be honestly. My son is 5, so I'm trying to learn how to discipline and whatnot.
01:39 mst let 'em hurt, let 'em fail, let 'em learn
01:39 preaction oh shit, 5?
01:40 bpmedley franzkafka: I woud not expect someone to say that about you.  How can you be so blunt, thick skinned, etc and yet raise someone that is sheltered?
01:40 dabudabu Maybe force him to install linux from scratch
01:40 Grinnz gentoo
01:40 Grinnz that'll learn 'im
01:40 franzkafka dabudabu, haha, that's hilarious
01:40 mst how does a five year old even end up in therapy compared to getting a sharp smack around the read?
01:40 preaction i read an article about how, in certain places, 5 year olds tend fires, cut and prepare food, and other things my mom would have considered dangerous
01:41 franzkafka mst, my wife was hit by a car and lost her leg, so it had a big impact on him.
01:41 mst childhood: pretend it doesn't exist, make it continue until thirty anyway
01:41 franzkafka she's been away from home for like 4 months now... She was like 95% parent and me %5, and now I'm almost 100% and we're both like wtf?
01:41 mst franzkafka: I can't speak to that and in your case withdraw my previous comments
01:42 franzkafka bpmedley, I don't think a lot of the people who raised the millenials were all thin-skinned, etc.
01:42 dabudabu I'm sorry to hear that, franzkafka
01:43 franzkafka I think it has a lot to do with wanting something better for your kid, stuff like that. I'm not really too sure, but I find it interesting that it seems that almost all parents of this generation parented in the same way.
01:43 franzkafka It's like there's a meeting somewhere.
01:43 franzkafka dabudabu, Ah, it's ok. Things are doing pretty good now. Just sharing because it sounds strange for a 5 year old to go to therapy ;D
01:43 preaction homogeneity defined by mass media consumption
01:43 Grinnz yeah, was gonna say. media is heavily a factor
01:44 Grinnz tv movies commercials, give ideas of what life should be like
01:44 preaction i was in therapy when i was 8, for another justifiable reason (though i now feel that child psychologists are basically quacks)
01:44 preaction or at least mine was
01:44 franzkafka I imagine there are some good books talking about the different reasons this generation is the way it is.
01:45 franzkafka Japan seems to have the same issue as the United States.
01:45 mst parents thinking a happy childhood matters
01:45 mst teach your kids to be resilient and brilliant
01:45 mst and they'll build themselves a happy adulthood
01:45 franzkafka mst, that belongs on a poster
01:45 preaction and the next generation will be a backlash against this one, which will be backlashed against the following generation. like a pendulum
01:45 mst as always
01:45 mst and every generation is likely equally wrong
01:46 preaction indeed
01:46 mst and I liked my parents before they were dead, so I'm opinionated about it, and should acknowledge that bias
01:46 preaction i have the insane notion that i'm smart enough to do better, just like everyone else does
01:47 bpmedley franzkafka: I see.  There’s a 10 year gap between myself and my sisters; so we’re in different generations.  I used to say we’re in different families.. :)
01:47 mst eh, when I spent a couple years playing parent, I just tried to copy them
01:47 mst I figured that the odds were good I'd do worse, not better
01:47 mst given everybody seemed to think they'd done well
01:48 mst ... in spite of producing me as a result ;)
01:48 preaction are you not happy and successful?
01:48 dabudabu I live in Japan but don't know much about how kids are faring here
01:49 mst preaction: yes. that's why I'd rather copy what my parents did than try something unknown :)
01:49 preaction i mean, that's what i come back to as well. i'm successful, maybe not blissful, but at least content. how much of that is because of how i was raised? and how depressing is that?
01:49 preaction ;)
01:49 dabudabu I did feel they're over-protected though
01:49 preaction hatarake neet!
01:49 dabudabu I'm at work as we speak!
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01:50 preaction one of my favorite things that ever show up on /f/
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04:10 jberger dear god! the backlog!
04:11 Grinnz haha
04:12 jberger I think #mojo just went on a drunken bender/soul search
04:12 preaction i didn't choose the IRC life, the IRC life chose me!
04:14 jberger mst: for the record I can tell the difference between "stupid idea" and "you are stupid". the problem is that on irc the latter is almost all I see
04:15 jberger but generally the overall discourse is improving I think
04:15 Grinnz if anyone read the topic, i would suggest adding to it something like "Got a complaint? Be specific!"
04:16 Grinnz but nobody reads topics.
04:16 jberger Grinnz: do any newbies read the channel topic?
04:16 jberger it's mostly there to inform about the channel logger
04:17 Grinnz and to have some unicode character that i still havent figured out
04:17 preaction tiger face!
04:17 jberger Grinnz: tiger face
04:17 Grinnz i see
04:17 preaction rawr!
04:17 jberger Grinnz: man you're stupid :-P
04:17 Grinnz well i didn't bother googling "unicode 01F42F"
04:18 jberger http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious#CODE-NAMES
04:18 Grinnz i got that part :P
04:18 Grinnz oh, i see
04:18 preaction https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/226725/Screen%20Shot%202014-11-30%20at%2010.18.08%20PM.png <- get a better irc client?
04:19 Grinnz font*
04:19 jberger I'm sad that I wasn't around for tropical drink
04:19 Grinnz hexchat doesn't care what my fonts render :P
04:19 jberger mmmmm tropical drinks
04:20 Grinnz if i may nominate a character for a future release, http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f596/index.htm
04:20 * Grinnz runs
04:21 jberger hand with middle finger extended has been suggested several times
04:21 Grinnz haha
04:33 jberger REVERSED HAND WITH MIDDLE FINGER EXTENDED (U+1F595)
04:35 Grinnz i just hope when fonts get around to implementing these characters, that they draw a better hand
04:36 Grinnz the fingers in the vulcan one are quite odd
04:36 jberger I use symbola on my laptop, not sure what my phone is using
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06:29 franzkafka Hey, can you guys think of any advantage to a Unix keyboard (i.e., control key where caps lock key is located, etc)?
06:30 franzkafka I found an old Sun keyboard in my while cleaning my garage, and I was thinking about replacing my Corsair K70 with it.
06:32 franzkafka Hrm, it would really take some time to get used to the differences on this keyboard.
06:33 franzkafka But I actually really like the layout, especially that backspace is right above enter.
06:33 franzkafka I never thought about the fact that my fingers have to leave home row to hit backspace
06:34 franzkafka Man, I really hate the way I type, it's odd.
06:35 franzkafka I can type super fast, but I only use 2 fingers per hand.
06:35 franzkafka s/super/relatively
06:38 DaTa i have mapped ESC to my caps lock key
06:39 Snelius try modern mechanical keyboards
06:39 Snelius not k70 only
06:45 franzkafka I was going to buy a Das Keyboard, or one from Unicomp, but I didn't want to wait for shipping and I couldn't find one around here.
06:45 franzkafka I don't think I ever use my caps lock key, ever
06:46 Snelius oh! Das Keyboard is very nice
06:47 franzkafka I <3 my co-worker's Das Keyboard. Honestly, I should have just ordered one.
06:47 Snelius franzkafka: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/ ?
06:47 franzkafka I can't stand the LED backlights on this stupid K70
06:47 Snelius yep, led is shit i think.
06:48 franzkafka Nice, this is an awesome site. Yeah, LED is distracting and annoying. Fortuanately I can turn it off (which I did).
06:48 Snelius i'm using filco MJ-2 tenkeyless, it's so awesome for me.
06:48 franzkafka I think  I would have liked this back in ~98 when I was playing Quakeworld and had a modded computer with "cool lights" and shit
06:48 Snelius with brown mx
06:48 franzkafka brown mx > cherry mx it seems
06:48 Snelius yep
06:48 Snelius cherry mx brown
06:49 franzkafka I really like that Filco honestly.
06:49 franzkafka I love that it's blank like Das, but you can still look down and cheat when you need to :D
06:49 Snelius what about happy hacking pro 2 ? :)
06:49 Snelius franzkafka: yeeaa)) ninja series!
06:49 franzkafka I just like the UNIX layout of this Sun keyboard (but it's not mechanical)
06:50 Snelius heh
06:50 franzkafka OK, I found it. I am getting this HH Pro 2.
06:51 franzkafka But :O at the price man
06:51 franzkafka $235.00 god damn!
06:51 Snelius yep:) i what it! but price .. :)
06:51 franzkafka I like it though, and it's compact so I could easily take it with me to the coffee shop, etc
06:51 franzkafka dammit Snelius, my wife is going to be pissed if I buy this, but I kind of need to
06:52 franzkafka I really like the design too
06:52 Snelius the best keyboard ever, heh. Topre, PBT+ & etc...
06:52 Snelius and 235$  :)
06:52 franzkafka I wonder what it is about a clickity clackity mechanical keyboard that makes it so nice?
06:53 Snelius very nice
06:53 franzkafka I think it may just be worth it. I like that it has no fluff.
06:53 franzkafka I'
06:53 franzkafka I will take my mechanical keyboard to work and annoy everyone around me
06:53 Snelius click is not problem with  rubber dampers
06:53 franzkafka They will be simultaneously annoyed and envious.
06:54 Snelius i have one
06:54 franzkafka I dunno, that seem sacrilege.
06:54 franzkafka I mean, I love the clicky clack
06:54 franzkafka :P
06:54 Snelius :))
06:54 Snelius i like it too
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06:55 franzkafka So, what is it about YAPC::Asia that makes it a must attend event?
06:55 franzkafka Is it simply the fact that it's the last one?
06:55 Snelius yes it is
06:55 nicomen last one?
06:55 purl last one is for channels
06:56 Snelius i think that last one for Tokyo only. lol
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06:58 franzkafka Ah, what country is Perl most alive in?
06:58 franzkafka I mean, where are the majority of incredible Perl developers at?
06:59 franzkafka I don't think they're here in the United States unfortunately, or at least it doesn't seem that way.
06:59 preaction Japan and US I suspect
06:59 franzkafka Everyone I know abandoned Perl around 2010 and either went with Ruby or Python now, and the only people I know still using Perl use it as if it's still 1998.
06:59 preaction UK has a bunch too. Netherlands as well
07:00 preaction no local PerlMongers?
07:00 franzkafka I was reading an article that basically said, "If you want to continue using Perl, move to Amsterdam."
07:00 franzkafka Not sure what the hell that means, but that's what it said :D
07:00 franzkafka oh yeah, there is!!
07:00 franzkafka http://pdx.pm.org
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07:01 preaction i was to understand that PDX had quite a few big Perl names
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07:02 franzkafka I really need to attend a PerlMongers event. I'd love to meet other Perl programmers, because I'm the only person I know in real life that uses Perl. I'm trying to convince the project I just joined to switch from Ruby to Perl, but it doesn't look promising.
07:02 franzkafka Hm, is there a site that lists something like that? Locations of big names in the Perl community? :D
07:03 preaction not that i know of. they just, frequently, go to events
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07:05 preaction or organize events, either way. it'd be kind of ... weird... to just say "oh, Larry Wall lives in Poughkeepsie"
07:05 franzkafka haha
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07:06 franzkafka OK, well I'm going to start attending the PerlMonger events
07:06 franzkafka Thanks for reminding me preaction.
07:06 franzkafka The error reporting in the script I've been running for ~1.5 hours is to say 'oops' on exception... Now I am wishing I actually did a bit more on it, considering it's taking so long and my screen is filled with 'oops'.
07:06 franzkafka heh
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10:52 franzkafka Hey all, I know this may be a pretty loaded question, but I am genuinely interested: What are the differences between Catalyst and Mojolicious? Why would you choose on vs the other?
10:55 Snelius omg
10:57 nicomen it's a fair question, but I don't have a well-balanced and informative answer, it would end up very subjective, and about how it feels working with.
11:02 nicomen and every thing someone would tell you about either, would be crontradicted by someone else I think
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11:04 franzkafka Yes, that's perfectly fine though nicomen.
11:05 franzkafka I don't mind a subjective answer. From looking at Catalyst code vs Mojolicious, Mojolicious just looks... I dunno, easier? Nicer? a lot of things. That's subjective.
11:05 franzkafka I'm just interested is all.
11:05 nicomen https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mojolicious/jKVaNVMp9z8
11:06 nicomen the biggest non-subjective different is probably the out-of-the-box support for non-blocking code and websockets
11:07 franzkafka I really need to get a better understanding of non-blocking. I read a really great analogy from sri about tea kettles, and I went, "A ha! Asynchronous!" To which tempire said, "Similar, but not the same."
11:07 nicomen oh and that Catalyst has a defined way on how to structure apps
11:08 nicomen for me it reminds me of the way the amiga did multitasking
11:08 franzkafka I think the biggest thing I keep reading against Catalyst is it's dependency radius, to which I have no issue with really since the project I will be working on will just be hosted on a server and not open-sourced (unfortunately).
11:08 franzkafka Though, for my own project, I am using Mojolicious because it will be on Github, etc.
11:09 nicomen I think the dependency thing is not that important
11:10 franzkafka Hm, so really for the most part you can accomplish the same things  regardless of what framework you choose, but one is quite a bit easier than the other?
11:11 franzkafka Would you say that is pretty accurate?
11:11 franzkafka Arg, the only thing that made me think for a moment to try Catalyst was the fact that there is a book, and I love reading, and I love having a book at my fingertips when I get stuck.
11:12 franzkafka Nonetheless, I've been able to accomplish quite a bit in Mojolicious honestly, and I've been working with it for ~1 year now... so, I guess "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
11:14 nicomen I say you should try out new things, then at least you have a better understanding, and better knowledge to base decisions ;)
11:15 franzkafka nicomen, good point actually. Maybe I will try to make an app in Catalyst just to check it out.
11:16 franzkafka Actually, perfect. I have a small API to write.
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12:42 sri holy backlog batman
12:45 Nei didnt sri invent both mojo and catalyst
12:47 crab he also invented batman
12:47 batman hey!
12:48 batman :)
12:54 crab are people using 5.20 in production happily now?
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14:06 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ANWMfg
14:06 good_news_everyon mojo/master 6f56f96 Sebastian Riedel: old values should always be removed
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14:15 dparry hi, I need to package up my lib dir separately to my application (to cater for different flavors of perl on multiple boxes), but to deploy and run with say morbo it seems that I need to symlink the lib dir back into my app dir. Is there a better way of deploying? rnv vars perhaps...?
14:15 dparry s/rnv/env/
14:15 bpmedley I use -I …  /opt/perl -Ilib /opt/perl-5.20.1/bin/morbo -v /opt/restapi/minion_email.pl
14:18 dparry like this bpmedley? perl -I /usr/local/perl/5.blah/site/lib/ /usr/local/perl/5.blah/site/bin/morbo script/App
14:21 dparry or maybe even /usr/local/perl/5.blah/bin/perl -Ilib /usr/local/perl/5.blah/site/bin/morbo script/App ?
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14:21 dparry either way this doesn't seem to work :(
14:23 dparry strace has a lot of stat lib calls returning ENOENT
14:25 dparry and the templates are not found even though they are in the local dir
14:28 gtodd if attr is DEPRECATED  in favor of Mojo::Collection::map  ... how does one pull out attributes with map and a callback using the commandline tool?
14:30 gtodd mojo get http://mojolicio.us a [what to put here]?  do I put perl code between ' ' or ...
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14:49 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/QHekfA
14:49 good_news_everyon mojo/master e721a42 Sebastian Riedel: fixed deprecation warnings in get command
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14:49 sri gtodd: fixed
14:50 gtodd :-D
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15:39 dparry to try and have the app find the templates dir I have added push @{$renderer->paths}, $self->conf->{'home'} . "/../templates"; in the startup block but still it does not find them :( any ideas please?
15:40 Grinnz dparry, set the template dir as its own conf var? and use File::Spec->catfile instead of concatenating paths
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15:42 dparry I guess that might help if /../ is not allowed in renderer path...
15:42 Grinnz probably not
15:42 Grinnz dunno
15:42 Grinnz better to have its own var, either way
15:43 dparry tried it hard coded to the path, and I still get Template "dash/landing.html.ep" not found.
15:43 dparry even though dash is in the dir specified.
15:43 McA Hi all, is there a way to overwrite the standard folder 'public' containing static stuff in Mojo::Lite?
15:45 dparry but if I symlink in the lib dir then the app works...
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15:50 Grinnz dparry, try $renderer->paths([$template_dir]);
15:52 dparry nah it still complains about template not found but I think this is a red herring error message for I want the lib directory linked from your current dir
15:52 Grinnz dparry, i am using an absolute path to template dir in my app
15:53 Grinnz dunno
15:53 dparry me too, but I don't have lib in my app dir
15:53 Grinnz McA, not sure but try app->static->paths([$path]) ? or push @{app->static->paths}, $path
15:54 dparry it is somewhere else that morbo seems happy to start with then has trouble later with it missing...
15:54 Grinnz dparry, morbo might care, yes, since morbo needs to restart it... otherwise it should be able to use pms from anywhere in your @INC
15:54 McA Grinnz: Thank you. I'll try
15:55 dparry morbo can find the libs yes as it starts up ok, but when I hit the app then it blows up at that point
15:56 Grinnz dparry, you'd probably need to go into mroe detail on your setup, but @INC stuff is not really my area and i have to go
15:57 dparry cool, thanks Grinnz
15:57 dparry setup is basically 1 dir with: scripts public templates app.conf and the lib dir elsewhere...
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16:21 sri anyone got one? https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/711#issuecomment-65089432
16:24 crab weird.
16:32 * Grinnz_ looks up what Mojo::Parameters objects do
16:32 Grinnz_ ah, figured as much
16:36 sri i think the proposed change might actually end up being confusing https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/711#issuecomment-65092089
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16:46 Grinnz_ hm, yeah there is no difference between "undef" and "missing" when it comes to URL parameters
16:46 Grinnz_ however it should probably do something other than throw uninitialized value warnings :P
16:47 sri why?
16:47 Grinnz_ because it doesn't tell you where the problem is
16:48 sri we don't validate parameters anywhere
16:48 sri for no function or method
16:48 * Grinnz_ shrugs
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16:48 Grinnz_ i'm just saying, if i ran into warnings like in that initial post i would be frustrated
16:48 sri undef is currenlty just not supported
16:49 Grinnz_ i'm not saying to support intentional undef, but to improve the response for debugging
16:49 sri there's hundreds of other methods in mojolicious that give you wild warnings if you pass them an undef value
16:49 sri if you want to validate all parameters, it should be done properly
16:50 Grinnz_ my response to that would be the same; any time a module throws out warnings within its own code does not help the user
16:52 Grinnz_ in my opinion, croak or similar is an acceptable way to deal with undef parameters passed into functions that shouldn't receive undef
16:54 sri Grinnz_: and methods that only know how to handle a certain type of object as arguments?
16:54 sri or just array/hash refs?
16:54 sri what about booleans?
16:55 Grinnz_ you are correct, there are a lot of these cases, and all of them are potentially problems that are difficult to debug
16:55 sri Grinnz_: is your way of dealing with this to hodge podge throw around croaks whenever someone stumbles over one such constraint?
16:56 Grinnz_ generally, yes, because it is the code's fault, and they need to know where
16:56 sri personally, i like my code to be consistent, and define specific rules for this stuff up front
16:57 Grinnz_ sure
16:57 sri "If a user finds an argument variation that throws a warning, add a croak statement to validate the argument."
16:58 sri does that really sound like a sensible rule to follow?
16:58 Grinnz_ i misread, no i do not only add the croaks when the problem happens :)
16:59 sri if you're so keen on validation why don't you use stuff like Type::Tiny?
16:59 sri (always)
17:00 Grinnz_ i'm not religious about it, i'm saying that's how i avoid hours of debugging simple issues
17:00 sri perhaps with Kavorka https://metacpan.org/pod/Kavorka#SYNOPSIS
17:00 sri personally, i'm totally for doing it
17:00 sri however... the catch is that it's terribly terribly slow
17:01 Grinnz_ sure, that is the downside
17:01 Grinnz_ well, dpeending on your definition of "terribly" :P
17:02 Grinnz_ i don't know, maybe if there was a way to only enable this validation in a development scenario
17:02 Grinnz_ but how?
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17:03 sri at the end of the day it's just code generation, you can certainly hack kavorka to do that
17:04 sri of course you won't get rid of much of the startup penalty
17:04 Grinnz_ right
17:04 sri and heavy xs deps
17:05 Grinnz_ dependencies would be the reason i generally only use croaks
17:05 sri my point is, we don't half ass this stuff, either we do argument validation all the time, or we don't do it at all
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17:15 sri bottom line... if you want better type checking... talk to p5p ;p
17:16 sri actually reminds me of this python proposal https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2014-August/028618.html
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17:38 sri allright, open for comments from everyone https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/711#issuecomment-65102798
17:38 * sri pokes jberger, marcus, crab, tempire and batman
17:43 Grinnz_ it would be pretty awesome if perl had a built in way to die if e.g. an argument is undef (despite other validation, this is the single biggest issue I run into)
17:43 Grinnz_ but performance wise... you don't want to mess something like that up
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17:52 crab sri: how does one thumbs-down?
17:53 crab ...by cutting and pasting another thumbs-down
17:53 sri :-1:
17:53 Grinnz_ lol
17:53 sri here's a cheat sheet http://www.emoji-cheat-sheet.com/
17:54 * sri doesn't use :neckbeard: enough
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17:55 genio or :punch:
17:56 sri so :fu: is a thing too :o
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18:14 * marty is particularly fond of :shit:
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18:40 franzkafka Alright, I am going to say, after working with Catalyst a little bit, I appreciate a lot about Mojolicious (not saying Catalyst is bad by any means).
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18:51 franzkafka jberger, your talk at MojoConf was awesome
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19:07 * sri wonders if this will replace docker soon https://coreos.com/blog/rocket/
19:08 mst oh, ouch, I hadn't realised docker's missing creep had got that bad
19:09 mst sri++ # often more useful than HN for keeping up with things
19:09 Grinnz_ lol
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19:10 Grinnz_ looks like Docker has a case of the Managers
19:11 * mst wonders if it can send email yet
19:11 sri this is sooo confusing, do i use docker or systemd for sending email now?
19:12 * Grinnz_ honestly thinks either would be better than postfix
19:12 franzkafka sri, funny you should mention rocket, I was just discussing it
19:12 mst I like using exim, then I can load perl from my config file and use Email::Sender::Simple
19:12 * genio hugs his postfix
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19:13 Grinnz_ anyway, we should all be using emacs for that, right
19:13 sri my drama sense was tingling https://twitter.com/solomonstre/status/539491315973500928
19:14 franzkafka Their entire reasoning for starting Rocket is ridiculous.
19:14 mst is it?
19:14 purl it's it!
19:14 Grinnz_ what is it?
19:14 purl it's it!
19:14 Grinnz_ :D
19:14 franzkafka I don't mind competing products that do the same thing, but Docker is fully capable of being exactly what they've created Rocket for, and more.
19:14 mst uh
19:14 sri botsnack
19:14 purl thanks sri :)
19:14 mst the reasoning appears to be "docker keeps expanding its scope and we only wanted a specific part, and they've removed the manifesto that indicated they cared about that"
19:15 franzkafka Unless I am missing something about Rocket that Docker is incapable of.
19:15 mst that actually seems bloody reasonable to me
19:15 mst franzkafka: you're ... missing the point
19:15 mst coreos wants less, not more
19:15 Grinnz_ franzkafka: they aren't talking about capability.
19:15 mst they want the original capabilities of docker
19:15 mst without the embrace and extend
19:15 mst a thing layer atop lxc strikes me as a very useful thing to have
19:16 franzkafka Grinnz_, Yes, they are talking about incapability. They don't want all the capabilities of Docker.
19:16 Grinnz_ capabilities come with complexity.
19:16 sri yea, if docker doesn't follow its original manifesto anymore a new project seems totally reasonable https://github.com/docker/docker/commit/0db56e6c519b19ec16c6fbd12e3cee7dfa6018c5
19:16 mst they're talking about doing one thing well, and being a composable, interoperable standard
19:16 franzkafka Grinnz_, simplicity. I get that also. But here's the thing, you don't have to use Docker in complex ways. You can achieve simplicity with Docker.
19:16 mst this is a good thing
19:17 mst franzkafka: sure, and you can install windows server without a GUI
19:17 franzkafka brb
19:17 * Grinnz_ shudders
19:21 franzkafka I somewhat get it. Basically it's like Ubuntu vs Arch/Gentoo, etc
19:21 sri in the end competition is good for everyone
19:22 franzkafka Install everything you possibly can, or set up a minimal system and allow the user to decide what they need. However, the analogy somewhat falls apart since you can go simplistic with Docker, but then you have the ability to make it more complex.
19:22 franzkafka It sounds like Rocket would be Arch without pacman :D
19:23 franzkafka In my analogy. And yeah, in the end competition is good for everyone, so that's why I'm not really complaning about Rocket, but just somewhat bothered by their statement. As if Docker has to be complex.
19:23 Grinnz_ really in open source software, nobody needs to explain why they make something new unless they want other people to use it :P
19:23 mst their statement makes perfect sense. docker is trying to create ecosystem lock in.
19:24 mst if you don't understand why that's bad, then I'm not sure I can help you
19:25 franzkafka I understand why that is bad. I guess how much they are shitting on Docker is what's really bothering me here. E.g., From a security and composability perspective, the Docker process model - where everything runs through a central daemon - is fundamentally flawed. To “fix” Docker would essentially mean a rewrite of the project, while inheriting all the baggage of the existing implementation.
19:25 franzkafka I agree that the FUD is strong on this one.
19:25 mst from a unix perspective, that's absolutely correct
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19:26 franzkafka Eh, but I guess it's good to point out the issues with a project when you're starting a competing one yourself. Yeah, I'm just being a bit reactive.
19:26 mst right, in this case docker is shouting 'FUD!' because they don't actually have a defence
19:27 franzkafka Also, I do wonder if they've ever heard of Solaris Zones, because everyone seems to act like Docker was some huge innovation, even this statement from CoreOS.
19:27 Grinnz_ and they don't really need one, unless they want to go back to selling themselves as a simple solution
19:27 mst right
19:27 Grinnz_ but that's not how they're planning to make their money
19:27 Grinnz_ and that's fine
19:27 mst saying "yeah, we concluded that we'd rather be a platform than a standard, fair game" would've been the adult response
19:27 mst but, no, let's yell FUD instead of admitting the truth
19:28 * mst now significantly less likely to touch docker given that attitude
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19:29 franzkafka I wonder if they'll actually address the points made by Rocket rather than just yelling FUD. Would be much more interesting.
19:30 franzkafka https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjOQZf0Ad74#t=1905
19:30 franzkafka Erp, sorry, didn't mean to paste that
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19:49 cfedde http://xkcd.com/927/
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20:02 sri i really like that rocket defines a spec https://github.com/coreos/rocket/blob/master/app-container/SPEC.md
20:06 sri well, shit... http/2 is on its way :S http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2014OctDec/0817.html
20:08 cfedde I wonder if the author is using the word "process" in a generic sense or in a linux specific sense. the "Example Use Case" seems to imply that container = process.
20:10 sri oetiker: just noticed you're still doing this https://metacpan.org/source/OETIKER/Mojolicious-Plugin-ReverseProxy-0.6/lib/Mojolicious/Plugin/ReverseProxy.pm#L28
20:11 sri it's not necessary, the content length bug has been fixed
20:12 sri in 5.63 or so
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22:01 oetiker sri: oh ... cool thanks ...
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22:18 jberger_ sri/all: recommendations for an irc client on Mac?
22:18 sri gui?
22:18 purl it has been said that gui is integrated into the win32 thing or wxPerl (http://wxperl.sourceforge.net) or Graphical User Interface or what happens to a gummi bear left in the sun
22:19 Grinnz_ the eternal question.
22:19 Grinnz_ irc clients on mac, that don't suck...
22:19 sri textual
22:19 Grinnz_ ssh? :)
22:20 mikegrb Grinnz_: mosh ;)
22:21 Grinnz_ mosh is cool... it didn't like my tmux though
22:21 mikegrb I have to tmux -2 to force moar colors but otherwise good
22:21 Grinnz_ i don't recall the exact issues...
22:21 sri textual is actually open source and you can build it yourself, but paying 5 bucks on the app store supports the developer
22:22 jberger_ Cool, I will look
22:22 sri (in case you didn't like the idea of a commercial client)
22:22 mikegrb yeah textual is my least annoying gui client
22:22 Grinnz_ does hexchat build for mac?
22:22 mikegrb has some nifty features like inlining images and such
22:23 Grinnz_ yeah... those are features i hope are optional :)
22:23 Grinnz_ certain irc channels i'm in that would be very bad
22:23 mikegrb they are, per channel even
22:23 mikegrb IRC is predictable it seems
22:24 Grinnz_ even then.. all it takes is one spammer to get into your "family friendly" channel and post something x rated...
22:24 Grinnz_ not something i'd ever leave enabled
22:24 Grinnz_ well, i don't use gui clients at work anyway
22:25 Grinnz_ hexchat apparently does build for OS X now
22:25 Grinnz_ https://hexchat.github.io/downloads.html
22:25 * sri is still trying to get used to tmux+irssi
22:25 Grinnz_ sri: tried weechat?
22:26 Grinnz_ its a little more like hexchat than irssi, i've found... i think thats why i like it
22:26 sri this is what you look like to me! http://i.imgur.com/e8k67FC.png
22:27 sri on the plus side, emoji work :)
22:27 sri nope, not tried weechat
22:28 Grinnz_ http://awesomescreenshot.com/0b13y4tpa8 ditto
22:28 Grinnz_ (yes i'm a sucker for right-aligning nicks)
22:29 sri screenshot-ception
22:29 Grinnz_ the link in the screenshot doesn't work!
22:30 genio hmmm.  the topic isn't displaying the icon for me.  I get the ol' question in a diamond
22:30 Grinnz_ my terminal doesn't even try, lol
22:30 Grinnz_ hexchat gives me the unicode codepoint
22:32 genio http://i.imgur.com/V2YQBoo.png
22:32 hernan604 genio: your font is missing a character
22:32 hernan604 mine is missing also
22:33 genio sri: What font are you using?
22:33 Grinnz_ i'm also interested to learn what font is monospace and has emoji :P
22:34 genio and... Terminal.app?  iTerm2 it up
22:34 sri Consolas
22:34 purl Consolas is a beauty
22:35 sri botsnack
22:35 purl :)
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22:35 Grinnz_ wait a sec, i'm using Consolas
22:35 Grinnz_ lol
22:36 sri :)
22:36 Grinnz_ the emoji must be a mac thing :P
22:36 * genio is on a mac
22:36 sri the one product from redmond i can't work without
22:37 sri although it was designed by my favorite type foundry
22:38 * sri is a sucker for lucasfonts designs
22:39 genio I might have something else done incorrectly as I just went through every font for iTerm2 and all showed the diamond+question
22:39 * sri shrugs
22:39 genio even one called "Apple color emoji"
22:39 sri just worked for me
22:39 jberger_ Install symbola don't
22:39 jberger_ Font
22:40 jberger_ Covers darn near all of Unicode
22:40 sri no matter what font i select, it falls back to apple emoji
22:41 Grinnz_ must be some postprocessing
22:41 Grinnz_ or pre-
22:42 sri 😎
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