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IRC log for #mojo, 2015-02-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 sri hahaha
00:02 pink_mist Mojolicious 5.17 has no test failures on this install, time to go through some revisions and see when it broke :>
00:02 jberger pink_mist: you can, but I don't know how much effort should be expended fixing mojo on 5.10 on cygwin
00:03 jberger then again, if you track it down, let us know
00:05 pink_mist oh, well that's odd, I now noticed the perl Makefile.pl step mentioning it needs a newer Time::Local ... which is core ... I wonder why cpan itself didn't see fit to install that...
00:06 pink_mist ... it didn't change the Mojolicious test results though
00:08 pink_mist or hmm, it seems the Time::Local installed via cpan doesns't get picked up :/ well that sucks
00:08 pink_mist fucking @INC ordering :/
00:14 pink_mist alright, setting PERL5LIB to where the newer Time::Local is installed fixes the test failure
00:17 jberger pink_mist++
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02:47 Topic for #mojo is now ???? hear me roar | http://mojolicio.us | http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/today
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03:47 cpan_mojo XML-Loy 0.35 by Nils Diewald - http://metacpan.org/release/AKRON/XML-Loy-0.35 (depends on Mojolicious)
03:50 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-HostMeta 0.18 by Nils Diewald - http://metacpan.org/release/AKRON/Mojolicious-Plugin-HostMeta-0.18
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09:45 avkhozov Mojolicious on stackshare needs your +1 :) http://stackshare.io/mojolicious
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11:27 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FAu6
11:27 good_news_everyon mojo/master df80ea7 Sebastian Riedel: try a flat menubar
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11:28 * sri wonders if anyone actually notices the tiny changes he makes to the design
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12:00 mst sri: my bet would be that nobody notices the solutions, but they would've noticed the problems if you hadn't changed it
12:00 mst "not noticing" is often a victory from a library design POV :)
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12:14 sri worst live stream ever
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12:41 mst "this christmas ... probably ... we think"
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12:42 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FA5v
12:42 good_news_everyon mojo/master c7337f7 Sebastian Riedel: bring back shadows
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12:46 sri http://i.imgur.com/XGhoZnQ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/eqZntOl.png
12:47 sri i wanted a more modern look with a flat design... but it just doesn't look as nice
12:52 nicomen maybe my screen is fucked, but I don't see the difference
12:52 nicomen ah the shadow
12:53 nicomen yeah I think make it clear it is on top makes sense
12:53 sri like i said, most people won't see it, there's also a gradient
12:53 Nemix sri: thanks for summary...the stream is too choppy to listen to for me
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14:30 jberger I meant to wake up early to watch it. I guess it was fine that I didn't?
14:31 jberger and really it was "we think, we hope, this Christmas"?
14:31 jberger I didn't think they would do that, I really didn't
14:32 jberger after the history that p6 has had you can't do that :/
14:33 muraiki_ oh no
14:33 muraiki_ was the talk a disappointment?
14:33 jberger I'm getting that second hand from sri
14:34 muraiki_ argh
14:34 muraiki_ I've actually been playing with p6 a bit lately and it seems like it could be so nice
14:34 muraiki_ the slides "perl 6 for mere mortals" got me excited
14:34 nicomen do they have an alternative syntax for humans now
14:34 nicomen ?
14:34 muraiki_ heh
14:35 jberger I didn't care at all until jnthn's talk at mojoconf
14:35 nicomen scalar(@a) is @a.elems ??? like, .size, .length makes less sense than "a word that might give the impression you are sending back the actual elements of the list" ?
14:35 muraiki_ no, the slides focus on taking perl5 code and gradually adding p6 features like types, subset constraints, multimethods, parametric polymorphism, etc
14:35 jberger then I was excited but then the features I was excited about were totally undocumented
14:36 muraiki_ yeah, they need better docs than "read the synopses"
14:36 jberger seriously, don't go getting people excited about a thing they can't use!
14:37 jberger which they just ... keep ... doing
14:37 muraiki_ what features were you interested in?
14:37 jberger baked in async
14:37 muraiki_ oh yeah, that stuff was seriously awesome
14:38 muraiki_ I kept thinking "this is something that could make people take the language seriously"
14:38 jberger the best doc I had to use was jnthn's slides and the actual code base, which is never easy for nonblocking code
14:38 muraiki_ but the only docs I have found were slides and one or two blog posts
14:39 jberger agreed
14:39 jberger sigh
14:40 jberger http://blogs.perl.org/users/shadowcat_mdk/2015/02/fosdem-2015-its-christmas.html
14:41 muraiki_ interesting
14:42 jberger I mean, for their sakes, I hope they have their release
14:42 jberger but the optics are terrible
14:42 muraiki_ yeah, otherwise I think it will be the final nail in the coffin
14:42 muraiki_ optics?
14:42 purl optics is probably binary's least favourite part of physics
14:42 jberger perception
14:42 purl perception is not always reality.
14:43 muraiki_ ah
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14:44 jberger optics has been used as a term for "public relations perception" fire the last few years and I like it
14:44 jberger *for
14:44 muraiki_ yeah, and perl 5 doesn't exactly have the best reputation in the first place, but perl 6...
14:45 sri jberger: thing is, perl6 doesn't need good async
14:45 jberger I really thought that after all the history and with this title, I thought Larry was going to push 1.0 while on stage
14:45 jberger or at least an rc
14:45 sri you'll just run your event loop in a separate thread and be done with it
14:46 jberger sri: sure thread pooling, whatever we are calling it
14:46 jberger the stuff he demoed at mojoconf
14:46 muraiki_ yeah, this is something I don't understand very well, and sri (I think) and I had a disagreement about the importance of async in #perl6
14:46 jberger I was excited and then I couldn't play with it cause ENODOCS
14:47 sri async is an ambiguous term
14:47 sri can mean concurrency or parallelism
14:47 muraiki_ yeah, there's many ideas wrapped up in it
14:47 muraiki_ concurrent, parallel, etc
14:48 muraiki_ what got me excited about the slides jberger mentioned is the ability to write async code in a more imperative or declarative way. I mean, I know there are other ways to approach this using various libs or generators in node, for instance
14:48 muraiki_ but it just looked nice, heh
14:50 nicomen https://www.google.no/search?q=perl6&amp;tbm=nws <-- how is this even possible?
14:50 nicomen (last news from 2012)
14:50 nicomen (same with "perl 6"
14:51 jberger this isn't a pr rollout
14:51 nicomen ok
14:52 jberger ok I'm ready to call it, perl6 has been and continues to be the worst pr campaign ever
14:52 jberger I'm including "new coke"
14:53 jberger in fact, new coke is a good analogy here
14:59 jberger Hahaha the channel's response: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-02-01#i_10041437
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15:06 RichardL I use Mojolicious. In the middle of a controller I find out that the controller should not continue executing the code. How can I leave the controller immediately and execute an error-controller which shows an error page to the user?
15:10 jberger RichardL: have you read the guides?
15:11 RichardL I do...
15:12 RichardL This seems to be a kind of an "exception" in the code
15:16 jberger RichardL: please revisit the tutorial guide and if there is something unclear let us know
15:17 jberger we often don't answer direct questions of this nature as a means to understand how to improve the documentation
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15:17 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FxMG
15:17 good_news_everyon mojo/master abda5c8 Sebastian Riedel: use a more elegant search box
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15:32 jberger it really is telling that I can find no discussion of the p6 "announcement"
15:32 jberger I was curious what the internet thought, and the answer seems to be "hunh?"
15:36 btyler jberger: eh. any p6 discussion on HN or (especially) reddit gets taken over by trolls and witty dismissals pretty rapidly.
15:37 jberger about a dozen mentions on Twitter
15:37 btyler ovid's p6 talk at fosdem was packed, which was pretty cool
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16:51 jberger I'm having a very hard time restraining myself from restarting the name/version number battle again today :(
16:56 jberger someone please talk me out of a blog post
17:01 go|dfish pls stahp
17:09 Adura Can you draw a better logo?
17:10 jberger for p6 anyone could probably do that
17:10 jberger p5 has the velociraptor and it works for me
17:10 jberger sorry, I have gone to a rather dark place
17:11 Adura Thought it was a camel... but a get the idea that Perl is a dinosaur, but a cool one.
17:11 jberger we don't own the trademark to the camel
17:12 jberger oreilly does
17:12 jberger the onion is the umbrella logo
17:13 jberger owned by the perl foundation
17:13 Adura Ah...
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18:32 * jberger decides to only refer to the new language as Camelia
18:32 jberger if they won't chose a name, I will
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18:37 batman https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/736 # i'm not sure if i want warnings just once.
18:37 batman should i comment? my statement is very vague :P
18:42 Grinnz i don't think it is a good idea, they are there for a reason
18:42 Grinnz the only reason that test output was so excessive was the recursion
18:43 sri jberger, Adura: back in the day i did http://blog.kraih.com/post/43193421658/a-logo-for-perl
18:44 sri and offered to refine it based on feedback... but no interest
18:44 jberger sri: that looks nice
18:45 sri was a really bad experience, one of the reasons i only draw stuff for myself now
18:46 Nemix Grinnz:  any chance you have an example of using Mojo::Reactor::POE doing something with a POE session or something else POEish?  I am having trouble grasping usage from the example in the POD
18:46 preaction ooh, i could use a nice "powered by perl" logo
18:46 Adura If only there was a way of showing your art had something akin to better performance or less lines of... paint.
18:46 preaction sri: what's the license? i see it mentioned as free reuse/remixing
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18:46 sri preaction: never released in vector format
18:47 Adura 5 could be a clam, and 6 could be a perl.
18:47 sri there was a pixel version that shipped with mojolicious with cc-sa license for a time
18:47 Adura *pearl
18:47 sri think i gave a vector version to the perl6 book project, not sure what license that was
18:48 sri and what happened to it
18:48 jberger sri: what could possibly make it a bad experience? I assume you got push-back?
18:49 preaction worse, crickets
18:49 jberger if they choose not to market their language, I once again refuse to let them bring down mine
18:49 sri indifference mostly
18:49 Grinnz Nemix, the mojo reactor doesn't do anything with other POE sessions
18:49 jberger I hope to use Camelia, and perl, don't get me wrong
18:49 Grinnz it's just a backend for Mojo::IOLoop
18:49 sri and a -1 from timtoady, he really really likes the logo he made
18:50 Nemix Grinnz:  OK...thanks
18:50 preaction because programmers always make excellent artists and marketers
18:50 preaction http://preaction.github.io/Statocles/ <- i need something more than just "Powered by Perl" at the bottom of this
18:50 preaction and honestly, if we use those logos, they become logos
18:51 jberger TimToady can do whatever he wants with Camelia, the language and the logo
18:51 jberger he has abandoned Perl
18:51 jberger I don't feel the need to listen to him
18:51 preaction i've heard from people in TPF that they aren't exactly happy with TPF's logo but also can't change it
18:52 jberger TPF fought very hard for the onion, in terms of real time and money, I doubt that will change
18:53 sri i also tried to donate the logo to tpf actually, but got no response
18:54 preaction though, now that i think about it, using a butterfly for perl 5 would give even more relevance to perl 6 and bind them more tightly together.
18:54 sri whole lot of indifference back then
18:54 preaction or... we could capitalize on p6's buzz and steal it back for p5!
18:54 preaction yes! their uppance will come!
18:57 preaction alright. i'll go find that pixel version and add it to statocles and all the project websites i've been doing.
18:57 sri there might be a vector version of this somewhere with a liberal license https://github.com/perl6/book/blob/master/src/images/cover.jpg
18:57 preaction unless i shouldn't
18:57 jberger https://github.com/perl6/book/blob/master/src/images/title.svg
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18:58 Adura If I get Perl popular enough all my projects will have the Perl 5 Clam on them.
18:58 jberger Adura: question, why do you prefer the clam to the pearl
18:58 sri this font ships with a camel logo for perl :) http://mfizz.com/oss/font-mfizz
18:59 preaction yeah, they're waiting to get sued :p
18:59 Adura Well, Perl 6 will have the Pearl in the Clam.
18:59 jberger sri: you should submit the cloud logo for mojo
18:59 Adura The Clam will finally open.
19:00 sri i think they would be safe if they called it anything else than icon-perl... like icon-programming-camel or whatever ;p
19:00 preaction so perl 5 is useful, living organism. perl 6 is worthless byproduct obtained by killing useful living organism
19:00 Grinnz as long as they dont try to be concise and call it a caml
19:00 preaction i like it
19:00 preaction Grinnz: o no!
19:03 Adura Hmm, I guess Perl 5 could also be a chrysalis.
19:03 Grinnz only if it's kakuna, metapod sucks
19:03 Adura So, you want Perl 6 to be a bee now?
19:03 preaction how dare you! metapod has the best ability!
19:04 preaction the p6 bee works. it makes a quick sting and then is rendered ineffective by pulling its own organs out
19:04 sri if perl5 is a raptor... perl6 could be crude oil!
19:05 Adura Or, a raptor... bird.
19:05 preaction but we can't pick the p6 logo. perhaps we need the perl 5 spider! traps butterflies in their web and eats them!
19:06 sri http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2014/298/3/2/raptor_and_butterfly_by_sw_eden-d844ect.jpg
19:07 sri cute overload
19:07 purl cute overload is such a bizarre phenomenon. nobody is immune. someone can be the biggest curmudgeon in the world, and you show them ducklings with teeny tiny winglets bungee jumping without the bungee cord and they CANNOT AVOID GOING "AWWWWW"
19:08 jberger once again the logo doesn't matter until the language has a name
19:08 jberger it cannot have ours, because it is ours
19:09 Adura Going with the pokemon theme... Dimond.
19:09 jberger they want to capitalize on an existing name, add script to the end
19:09 jberger worked for javascript
19:10 jberger perlscript
19:10 purl perlscript is a way for real programmers to survive the MS-IIS APS Shell or using the wildly insecure ActiveX module, so caveat downloador or by ActiveState, Win32/IE only, http://www.activestate.com/ or a mod_perl config directive
19:10 Adura Or... Pltinum.
19:10 Adura Bonus points for having Pl in the name.
19:11 Adura Hell, Black/White Perl even works.
19:11 Grinnz perl omega ruby
19:12 Adura That'd be a bit confusing.
19:14 Adura perlX, perlY
19:15 Adura The former seems to be a namespace on cpan...
19:17 sri on twitter there is very little perl6 buzz... most responses can be summed up with meh
19:17 sri they'll have to do real work to gain mindshare again
19:19 Adura Oh, in Germany it is Pokemon Perl.
19:19 sri bootstrapping the eco system is gonna be so tough, with all the buzz it took node.js about 2 years to get npm decent
19:19 cpan_mojo Ado 0.78 by Krasimir Berov - http://metacpan.org/release/BEROV/Ado-0.78 (depends on Mojolicious::Plugin::DSC)
19:19 meredith some blog posts highlighting design and features that don't make us sound like we're building this as a joke
19:24 * marty wakes up to read about the big Perl6 announcement - and is disappoint.
19:24 cpan_mojo Mojo-Reactor-POE 0.004 by DBOOK - http://metacpan.org/release/DBOOK/Mojo-Reactor-POE-0.004
19:27 marty With Perl6 and Duke Nukem Forever being referenced in the same sentence a lot lately, it's hard to believe any announcement other than a 1.0 release would be made.
19:27 sri "this time we're serious...maybe"
19:28 jberger marty: I really expected at least an RC
19:28 * marty nods
19:28 jberger on #perl6 I have discovered that they don't have a test runner tool
19:28 jberger of course they lack documentation
19:29 jberger and they still are talking about refactoring the List class
19:29 jberger I'm out, I'm done
19:29 marty Perl6 will be so intuitive you will not need documentation.  It will practically write itself.  :P
19:31 marty well, on a happier note.  My custom (very poorly written) mojolicious ecommerce app has just passed the 100k orders mark and has not crashed once.   \o/
19:32 marty ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
19:32 jberger marty==
19:32 jberger HAHAHA
19:32 marty lol
19:32 jberger marty++
19:32 marty that is the way I write code.  :O
19:33 preaction wait, the great list refactor isn't done yet?!
19:33 * jberger is writing a webcomic app again
19:33 preaction fuck, chromatic's blog post on _that_ subject was damning...
19:34 preaction or twitter post, i forget...
19:34 jberger http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-02-01#i_10042090
19:35 jberger ^^ today
19:42 meredith i should probably look into .... ah, contributing
19:42 * meredith kicks a bit of dirt
19:43 meredith but elixir is my distracting shiny right now
19:48 jberger I kinda which I had something like "respond_to" for HTTP methods
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19:55 marc88 hi, when I use Mojo::UserAgent with many async connections I get this error:
19:55 marc88 Use of uninitialized value in hash element at /Mojo/Reactor/Poll.pm line 46.
19:55 marc88 maybe you should check the return value of fileno()
19:56 btyler I respect you all a -lot-, but the p6 bashing is a pretty big downer. I came away from FOSDEM excited about the future of -both- languages.
19:57 jberger btyler: I was excited
19:57 jberger I'm sorry if we are dragging you down
19:58 btyler I'm in amsterdam writing perl largely due to mojo being so fun to play with, so I'm quite in earnest about respecting this gang :)
19:58 sri marc88: can you turn that into a minimal test case?
20:00 marc88 sri, I will try..
20:00 sri btyler: nobody here hates the language perl6
20:01 sri it's just the implementations... have... issues
20:03 * sri likes to think he has been consistently cheering at and ranting about perl6
20:04 sri like when i noticed what kind of modules ship with rakudo
20:06 sri or when we were all really excited about promises and supplies after the mojoconf talk
20:06 sri it's a roller coaster ride!
20:06 preaction and i want to get off
20:08 jberger sri has been consistently planning a p6 port (with some low times of course)
20:08 nicomen sri: I am not so sure anymore
20:08 nicomen This document gets me dissy, and I feel it really really must be a joke: escaped comments, the whole quoting section, #-qualifiers with backticks for multi-line? IS all this crazy syntax made so that it CAN be implemented in perl5? http://tablets.perl6.org/tablet-2-basic-syntax.html
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20:09 sri there was a time when i even contributed a little to parrot... last decade :o
20:09 btyler yeah, as I said in a private chat with jberger -- I wasn't involved with perl for all the painful history
20:09 btyler I showed up recently
20:09 btyler and my personal experience has pretty much always been both camps humming along and making really cool things
20:11 btyler where recently is ~2 years ago, more or less
20:11 jberger and as I said, please, go, try it out
20:11 jberger contribute
20:11 jberger promote
20:11 jberger that's fine
20:11 jberger I'm sorry if we are bringing down the buzz
20:11 sri bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
20:11 * jberger swats sri
20:12 jberger purl stabs
20:12 purl somebody said stabs was a debugging format.  (Same problem space as DWARF I guess)
20:13 btyler anyways, sorry to steer the conversation astray. I'm going to continue being a happy user of all the perls
20:13 jberger btyler++
20:15 btyler also mentioned at fosdem, dancer2 is finally getting async!
20:15 * nicomen is going to continue being disappointed that someone made a language noone except a small subset of perl people will use, and hope that one of them soon will switch names.
20:15 sri btw. my official stance on perl6 can be found in this recent interview (last answer) http://www.josetteorama.com/all-about-mojolicious-interview-of-sebastian-riedel-part-2/
20:20 marty I think most of us here are excited to see what Perl6 will be when it's released.  I just find it strange that any announcement other than "here it is, now, ready to use"  is not universally recognized as detrimental to the cause.
20:21 jberger it is shockingly tone deaf
20:21 jberger here is the first bit of good news: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-02-01#i_10042771
20:22 jberger sri++ I think that sentiment goes for us all
20:24 sri jberger: hahahaha, maybe they'll go semver... and bump the major version every few weeks :D
20:25 marc88 sri: I added the line "warn dumper($self) unless defined fileno $handle;" to Poll.pm; this is what I get: http://pastebin.com/f6YC6zGN
20:27 sri marc88: test as in something i can actually run
20:28 * marty misses the days when he could develop full time and hang out on IRC more.  :(
20:29 marc88 the error occurs randomly, so I cannot build a test case
20:29 sri marc88: then i'm afraid we won't be able to help
20:34 * jberger thinks about using $r->tap()->tap() to build a more tree-like definition
20:44 sri marc88: you could mention which object $handle actually is
20:49 marc88 how can I do this?
20:51 sri say $handle; maybe?
20:52 sri dumper it or whatever
20:52 marc88 bless( \*Symbol::GEN49, 'IO::Socket::IP' )
20:53 sri what version of IO::Socket::IP?
20:55 marc88 0.36
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20:56 sri odd
20:57 sri marc88: operating system and version of perl?
20:58 marc88 I get this error with Ubuntu 12.04 perl v5.14 and OS X perl v5.18.2
21:01 sri ok, here's the thing, if we just made that warnign silent, we would leak memory
21:02 sri we depend on the descriptor number to clean up
21:04 sri the descriptor should not have been closed, that's the problem that needs to be tracked down
21:04 sri but without a test, this is all i can do
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21:26 sri one last thing you can check if the handle in question is still active in the reactor
21:26 sri oh
21:26 sri :(
21:30 marc88 joined #mojo
21:33 marc88 how can I do this?
21:35 Grinnz re: perl6 version number, if they are going to call it version 6.0.0 it better be able to run most perl5 programs... just saying
21:40 jberger sri: marc88 is back ^^
21:43 marc88 yes, but I don't know how to check if the handle is still active in the reactor :(
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21:50 jberger :( http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-02-01#i_10042910
21:51 cpan_mojo Mojo-Reactor-IOAsync 0.001 by DBOOK - http://metacpan.org/release/DBOOK/Mojo-Reactor-IOAsync-0.001
21:51 jberger Grinnz++
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21:58 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FhD5
21:58 good_news_everyon mojo/master a0d3e0d Sebastian Riedel: the search box should have a border
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22:04 jberger ok can I get a few eyes?
22:04 jberger which looks better?
22:04 jberger http://pastie.org/9879072
22:04 jberger or
22:04 jberger http://pastie.org/9879073
22:04 preaction diff -u!
22:04 purl i heard diff -u was still the one considered "useful", correct?
22:05 jberger ->tap usage
22:05 jberger diff: http://pastie.org/9879078
22:05 preaction could tap() take a list?
22:05 * Grinnz thinks tap just makes it more confusing
22:06 preaction i'm inclined to agree with my malefactor, Grinnz
22:06 jberger preaction: ?
22:07 preaction you're doing ->tap()->tap()->tap(), but would it not work to ->tap( sub {}, sub {}, sub {} );
22:08 jberger hmmmmm
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22:08 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FhSx
22:08 good_news_everyon mojo/master d70bb48 Sebastian Riedel: some browsers need a text color too
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22:09 jberger preaction: no
22:09 jberger tap can take arguments for the method
22:09 preaction ok. then the other one it is
22:12 jberger hmmmm, though it gives me an idea
22:12 jberger tap + hybrid routes?
22:25 jberger http://pastie.org/9879106
22:25 jberger diff: http://pastie.org/9879108
22:26 jberger preaction / Grinnz ^^
22:27 Grinnz thats a little better
22:27 preaction okay, and so what you're doing is running the JS tests after doing that thing?
22:28 jberger preaction: different project
22:28 jberger but no reason I couldn't
22:29 preaction oh, okay
22:29 jberger this is just a router for a more RESTy application
22:30 preaction okay, yeah, i think this works better
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