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IRC log for #mojo, 2015-05-05

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10:17 Zoffix Seen this? https://thegrid.io/
10:18 Zoffix We're all out of a job!!! :)
10:18 pink_mist the url looks familiar, so probably
10:18 pink_mist hmm, maybe not
10:18 pink_mist 0_o
10:18 Zoffix Reminds me of this lol http://abstrusegoose.com/563
10:19 Zoffix I doubt it'll be as revolutionary as they think it will be. No AI can predict which way our @management want things laid out :P
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11:10 batman sri: welcome back! how was your time off? :)
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11:48 marcus did you kill a lot of daemons?
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12:10 * sri is not really back, just taking a break from the break
12:10 batman sri: hehe ;)
12:10 sri and i do indeed enjoy killing demons
12:11 batman meta-break...?
12:11 sri Grinnz was right, diablo 3 is a totally different game now
12:11 sri (was it grinnz?)
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12:31 * sri needs a break from the break break
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12:32 pete Has something changed recently in the handling of multiple parameters?
12:32 pete eg: ?foo=1&foo=2&foo=3
12:33 batman pete: probably not.
12:34 pete Can I get Mojolicious to tell me what it thinks the QUERY_STRING is?
12:34 batman anyway.. you're question is probably wrong. follow these steps, and we might help you: 1) what are you doing? 2) what happens? 3) what do you expect to happen?
12:34 pete I expect Mojolicious to work the same way across more than one installation :-P
12:34 pete More specifically
12:34 pete my @values = $self->param('foo');
12:35 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/wiki/Upgrading
12:35 pete I expect to return (1,2,3) for ?foo=1&foo=2&foo=3
12:35 batman pete: that behavior is removed in 6.0
12:35 pete sri: Thanks
12:35 pete That doc doesn't explain how to get all the parameters out
12:35 sri batman: actually 5.48
12:35 pete What should I be using instead?
12:36 batman pete: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/wiki/Upgrading#parameter-name-listing
12:36 batman sri: ok
12:36 pete batman: ?!
12:36 sri it was the big security issue
12:37 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/wiki/Upgrading#context-sensitivity
12:37 pete sri: It says that you removed multiple parameters for 'param', but not the alternative way to get them out
12:37 pete OK, perfect, that'll work, thanks
12:38 batman pete: please read again.
12:38 batman "For example, my @names = $c->param should now be written as my @names = @{$c->req->params->names}, if you wish to retrieve all GET/POST parameter names"
12:39 sri batman: you linked to the wrong section
12:39 pete batman: Not in the section you linked to
12:40 jberger sri kills demons, jberger conquers in Widelands
12:41 jberger meaning I won my first 3 player normal level game
12:41 batman right. sorry.
12:41 batman batman-- # not reading
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12:44 sri batman: on the plus side, your comments on github recently were all spot on :)
12:44 batman sri: can't win them all ;)
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12:49 jberger batman++
12:51 * batman is grumpy.
12:51 batman i should probably not communicate with anyone. i'm sorry if i do :/
13:05 bd batman: could i interest you in a virtual hug?
13:07 batman bd: haha.
13:07 batman i feel all warm and fuzzy. did yoy deliver it already? ;)
13:08 bd batman: of course ;)
13:08 batman sweet.
13:09 batman sri: btw... did you alter one of my github comments? i was sure i made a comment about [$#{$self->acceptors}] vs [-1] ...
13:09 batman s/alter/delete/
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13:10 bd batman: also, here you go: http://i.imgur.com/AIebCTM.jpg
13:12 batman bd: http://grumpify.com <-- i made this :)
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13:32 genio I like the quotes!
13:33 batman thanks :)
13:34 batman i mostly did the web part. the rest of the team made the quotes, design and ios app
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13:45 bd batman: that. was. spooky.
13:45 batman bd: what?
13:46 bd batman: the grumpy cat stuff. me sending you one. you doing that web stuff.
13:46 Grinnz sri, glad you're enjoying the demon killing :)
13:46 batman bd: yeah. i'm fast, right? ;)
13:46 bd batman: just out of order ;)
13:46 batman hehe
13:46 marcus batman: When are you adding facebook instant messenger support to grumpify?
13:47 marcus :-)
13:48 batman marcus: probably never. but i will suggest it :)
13:48 batman thanks for the idea
13:48 marcus seems like a instant win :)
13:48 Grinnz lol
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13:56 bd grumpify | aalib | irc
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15:57 Mikey what mojoconf is canceled?!
16:00 pink_mist is this april 1st? hmm, no that was more than a month ago 0_o
16:01 Mikey i just got an email from soneone that said it's canceled, and before i go canceling my hotel and flight stuff, and grovel to my management i want to be sure
16:02 marcus mikey: It's correct. :(
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16:02 Mikey marcus: thanks for confirming.
16:03 Mikey next year, WSU should host you guys, we'll do it right in Detroit.
16:03 Mikey none of this last minute cancellation bs.
16:07 jberger sad stuff :(
16:18 Mikey do you guys know why?
16:23 mst because it was scheduled right up against YAPC::NA to try and make it easy for people from europe to attend both, except that it was *right* up against it so actually that didn't work
16:24 mst then riche, who was supposed to be the primary NY based organiser, pissed off the whole of NY.pm by turning up out of the blue and being contemptuous of anybody who thought YAPC::NA was more important than mojoconf
16:24 mst at which point it had no local support and no attendees
16:24 mst at which point: screwed
16:24 claudio that's unfortunate
16:25 mst there's nothing wrong with being a fanboy of a particular module, but if you fanboy -at- people it tends to be disadvantageous
16:26 Mikey fucking politics.
16:26 mst not so much politics as a complete lack of understanding of (a) the wider perl community (b) basic social skills
16:26 Mikey im gonna have to fabricate a better reason
16:27 Mikey someone had a stroke or something
16:27 mst right, I'm trying to think of a good way to spin it
16:27 mst but basically it's been a jumblefuck; it'd've need to be more organised to count as a clusterfuck
16:28 Mikey *nod* .. well thank you for the info
16:29 jberger I think that is a pessimistic summary
16:29 mst I mean, the reality is "it's a young conference so we have no idea what we're doing and sometimes we can't manage to compensate for the resulting problems this year"
16:29 mst which is true, and basically fair, but not a good excuse
16:29 xdg site is still up
16:29 jberger batman was going to take it down, is it not down yet?
16:30 mst and I said 'we' because I'm planning to make myself available next time, because I've spent enough time hanging around with ::NA and ::EU organisers to be able to help spot these things before they explode
16:30 Mikey totally... i had to make assurances about that, that i was obviously unqualified to make
16:30 xdg Is this "official"?  Should I take it off NY.pm?
16:30 xdg (i missed any Ny.pm antagonism -- maybe in circles I don't spend time in)
16:30 Mikey i got a refund and canceled my hotel and flight i certainly hope it's official
16:30 jberger official
16:30 purl hmmm... official is a woman.
16:31 Grinnz_ purl: i don't think so
16:31 purl Grinnz_: what?
16:31 mst xdg: all I can say is "panopticon", really
16:31 mst anybody who wishes to is welcome to roll to disbelieve
16:31 mst but my sources are usually pretty accurate
16:31 Mikey i did a last minute security b-sides at my hackerspace but aside from that not much conference experience
16:31 Mikey i'd be interested in organizing one here next year
16:31 Mikey wayne state university, detroit mi
16:32 xdg mst, I don't disbelieve, I'm more curious where it was being expressed.
16:32 xdg since NY.pm channels I'm not seeing are a blind spot
16:32 jberger Mikey: next year there will be a full proposal process, as there should have been this year
16:32 Mikey jberger: great.  i'll prepare for it.  any idea what that schedule looks like?
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16:33 jberger I don't know when the call for proposals will go out or when the submission deadlines will be, but I'm going to start working on those details soon
16:33 Mikey jberger: you the man.  i'll stay tuned.
16:34 jberger I want to be sure that next year's organizers have more time, which is one thing riche did not have (and that shouldn't be held against him)
16:34 jberger hi riche
16:34 riche mst: who exactly did I piss off?
16:34 riche I was at the hackathon on Saturday and no one mentioned anything
16:34 riche in fact at the social meetup people were dissing you quite a bit, and I backed you up
16:34 riche sighs
16:35 jberger everyone, please
16:35 purl everyone is asleep
16:35 jberger haha, thank purl
16:36 jberger lets please keep a focus on making next year's mojoconf a success
16:36 jberger yes there are things that we will learn from this year
16:36 Mikey i agree.  the sooner we forget about this the better
16:36 mst riche: if I had permission to tell you that, I'd've done it at the time so you could compensate, sorry
16:38 jberger to anyone interested in hosting a future mojoconf, I and others will be putting together a checklist and a call for proposals soonish
16:38 jberger if you want to start nosing around for ideas, I encourage it
16:40 sjn what happened with mojoconf?
16:40 xdg Thunderdome.  Two conferences enter, one conference leaves.
16:40 Mikey yeah conflict with YAPC::NA
16:40 * sjn reads backlog
16:41 xdg admittedly, IIRC, at the time, YAPC::NA wasn't quite so clear about stuff starting on Sunday.
16:42 riche xdg: that is right, I thought that would be a travel day
16:42 xdg I'm leaving early Sunday, so it is for me, but I can see why others might go out on Saturday.
16:43 riche xdg: also my thinking was it would be tough for many to justify intl travel multiple times a year, so I was trying to help... oh well
16:44 mst riche: it was a neat idea in theory, and if you'd co-ordinated with the ::NA organisers maybe it could've worked out in practice ... but evidently this time it didn't, sadly
16:45 sjn riche: so, what are you planning on doing with the monies oslo.pm sent?
16:45 jberger xdg: what is on sunday?
16:45 riche sjn: already gone to venue
16:45 jberger I'm only arriving in time for dinner!
16:45 sjn really?
16:46 riche sjn: yes really, and I am personally out thousands more.  cancellation was a huge decision for me.
16:46 sjn riche: how many signups were there for the classes?
16:46 riche sjn: 2
16:46 cfedde ouch!
16:47 sjn riche: and you *do* know that most signups usually come in the last week?
16:47 riche sjn: core team wouldn't front travel, and there are no cash flows
16:47 xdg jberger, http://www.yapcna.org/yn2015/schedule?day=2015-06-07
16:47 sjn and that they're a function of how much you market the event?
16:47 riche sjn: I said I would pay them back, but still they (specifically batman and sri) backed out.
16:48 riche so that was the final straw.
16:48 sjn batman, sri: really?
16:49 sjn batman, sri: ^
16:50 sjn organizing a conference is *always* a leap of faith, unless the conference is established and has a huge profit to cover expenses
16:50 sjn and there's *always* a risk
16:51 sjn riche: meaning, when you accept to host an event, it's implied that you are aware of this. are you not?
16:51 sjn same goes to anyone who can't front travel expenses
16:52 riche sjn, yes but I'm no martyr.  if you guys want to nail me to the proverbial cross, go right ahead.
16:52 sjn this is a long-standing tradition, at least in the Perl community
16:53 sjn riche: Oslo.pm fronted the risk last year, and tempire took a significant part of it by allowing the course profits to fund the conference
16:54 sjn riche: everyone's taking a risk, but the clue is to share it, and to trust eachother, and to communicate intentions well enough so everyone understands
16:55 sjn noone's expecting anyone
16:55 sjn ..to become a "martyr"
16:55 sjn but organizing a conference *does* require keeping one's cool
16:56 * sjn doesn't know the right english idiom for this, but in Norway we'd say "Having ice in the stomach"
16:56 Grinnz_ yeah, thats definitely not the right english idiom :P
16:56 riche sjn: I'm working with some NYC.pm folks to partially save the situation with training and hackathon on saturday, so hopefully it's not a complete loss
16:57 mst intestinal fortitude
16:57 sjn riche: that's good
16:57 riche yes I inferred it in the cancellation email
16:58 riche it's not perfect, but it's super hard to have a day of sessions at this point
16:58 sjn nah
16:58 sjn riche: seriously, having a half-assed gathering is still a *lot* better than none
16:58 riche yeps
16:58 sjn it just means you get more of a hallway track
16:58 riche that's what I thought
16:59 sjn but you have to give people a reason to gatehr
16:59 sjn that's the organizer's role
16:59 sjn to stand on some mountain top, shouting "COME HERE, WE HAVE SKILLZ AND BEER AND FUN", and then keep doing that until it happens
17:00 mst fuck, when the nordic perl workshop was cancelled one year because of the danger of planes being grounded, ISTR most of the attendees turned up anyway and had an unconference
17:00 sjn but you *have* to have a stiff upper lip, especially in the last few weeks before the conference
17:00 sjn yeah
17:00 sjn I was there
17:00 sjn we had a very good time!
17:01 sjn we winged it, and it was actually one of the most memorable perl events I've been to
17:01 sjn (all props to the Icelandic free software foundation)
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17:02 sjn they really pulled through, even if Ævar (whose idea it was to organize NPW there) left for Booking
17:02 riche Yeah it's settled... 6th will still go on.  I have already refunded people and cycled Stripe keys so will need to figure something else out.
17:03 sjn riche: you have more support than you realize, you know
17:04 sjn and it's *never* too late to fix stuff
17:04 sjn well, until the date has passed, or the boss gives up :-P
17:04 riche sjn: yes, thank you.  it's great to see some constructive comments
17:05 xdg sjn, just saw the "Having ice" idiom.  I'll try to find chances to try it in English and see how it goes.  :-)
17:06 sjn riche: seriously, dude, keep the conference, especially since you've already paid for the venue, right?
17:06 jberger "ice water in your veins" is probably close
17:06 sjn we sent you €2000 to make stuff happen, and quitting is NOT one of the things we'd like to see happen
17:06 sjn jberger: sounds painful
17:07 sjn and just a teeny bit dangerous
17:07 xdg jberger, that's more like "conceal don't feel" vs "suck it up and deal"
17:07 jberger xdg: hmmm perhaps
17:08 riche sjn: I spent the last week with back and forth emails with the core team.
17:08 mst none of whom are experts about conference organisation, whereas sjn is
17:08 xdg We don't want Spock.  We want Kirk facing the Kobayashi Maru scenario.
17:08 mst I'm amazed that nobody had him heavily involved from the start, tbh
17:08 sjn riche: if you are really adamant on cancelling, the I'd expect you to pay forward the €2000 to the next mojoconf
17:09 sjn mst: I'm already in the middle of osdc.no stuff
17:09 ribasushi xdg: I thought the perl community endorsed Pickard...
17:09 * ribasushi hides
17:09 Grinnz_ jeen luck pickerd?
17:09 mst sjn: by 'heavily involved' I mostly mean 'offering the benefit of your experience' - i.e. consultant orga
17:09 riche sjn: if we make $ on the training on the saturday, yes it will happen
17:09 riche otherwise, it's sunk cost
17:10 xdg any trekkies know offhand the trek-lore on Picard and Kobayashi?  It was never my thing.
17:11 Grinnz_ i don't think Picard was ever related to that test
17:11 xdg ribasushi, I'm more of a Yoda fan.  Do or do not, there is no try.
17:11 xdg google here i go...
17:11 riche sjn: if you would like to discuss further, let's work it through email
17:11 riche I need to get back to work
17:12 sjn yeah, I love it when people just log off
17:12 mst the traditional term is 'flounce'
17:13 meredith :(
17:20 meredith I had to back out of being on-site staff last week because something else came up, I'm sure it didn't help either.
17:20 sjn yeah, organizing community events is a trust exercise too
17:20 meredith My confidence wasn't even there to commit to travel and room plans though.
17:20 sjn when people break their promise, there are consequences
17:21 ribasushi this went rather sideways... in many unfortunate ways :(
17:22 meredith I'm not even sure what promise I made, since riche never communicated with me at all on his needs.
17:22 sjn but plans have to be adaptive too...
17:23 sjn meredith: here's a pro tip for you and anyone else considering helping a conference succeed... don't wait for stuff to happen :)
17:23 jberger well I can promise to be on google hangout all day on that saturday
17:23 jberger IF we can get anything firm I can try to change my travel, but that is only good for a few more hours now
17:24 Mikey i was hoping to show off my work, but there's always next year
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17:24 meredith Well, I'm not unfamiliar with conferences, but I can't exactly work entirely *around* the organizer.
17:25 meredith ~Is he taking care of this?  Should I? I don't have keys to an official account or his notes, I don't know.~
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17:26 * jberger plans to attend remotely
17:26 sjn meredith: ask
17:26 sjn there's no other way
17:27 sjn don't ask yourself, that is :-P
17:28 sjn rhetoric questions really don't work well in organizations :-P
17:28 meredith Some info went in a git repo, but that fizzled.  A few weeks back he was accosted by batman for lack of communication, he sent a big email saying he'd write status emails and he had "staff" who were taking care of things but they are behind the curtain to us... and there was never a followup.
17:28 meredith Generally the response was "I've got it"
17:29 sjn hm
17:29 Mikey sjn: you seem to be trying to get €2000 worth of something, but i'm not sure what it is.
17:30 sjn Mikey: I'm trying to get €2000 worth of community improvement
17:31 sjn (which one might say is backed by €2000 worth of trust, in some ways)
17:31 meredith I'm glad to help with a future MojoConf, but man, it needs to start in earnest at least 6mo before the event.
17:32 sjn early start is just as important as committed organizers
17:32 sjn don't want to burn out people
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17:51 meredith that goes for the core organizer as much as anyone, it's best to not have so much on their shoulders.
17:56 sjn yeah, it kinda is everyone's job to make sure noone burns out
17:56 sjn BUT that's really hard to achieve, especially when everyone is 110% into $work and @family and other stuff
18:01 mst I think having a few people on a mailing list or channel somewhere to bounce ideas off and so that if an organiser goes dark we can grab them and ask what's going on is going to be a good plan
18:02 mst sometimes lack of communication means somebody's busy and needs people to delegate to
18:02 mst sometimes it means they're burning out and need a hug (or the moral equivalent thereof)
18:05 batman jberger: i did not say i was going to take the site down. i said i would take _myself_ off the site. (haven't done that either yet)
18:08 romel hi everyone. i use html::formhandler along with mojolicious. formhandler is built on moose  and i'm curious if passing reference to my app object as moose attribute when constructing new form is a right way to get app functionality inside form classes. it looks like MyApp::Form->new(mojo => $c->app) inside controller's action.
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18:09 jberger romel: that will work, though I wonder if you would rather have the controller instance in your formhandler
18:09 jberger that said I've never used that module, so I don't know
18:11 mst romel: I would tend to be asking myself why you need that
18:11 mst romel: I mean, I can see, for example, MyApp::Form->new(db => $c->app->db) making sense
18:11 mst romel: but why would it need the whole app?
18:14 romel yea, i realized that controller instance would be enough. the thing is that i want some app helpers to be accessible during form processing and before/after saving data into database.
18:15 mst I would tend to, if that's the case, factor them out into a module of some sort, and then make the helpers call that
18:16 mst but that's quite possibly overkill for the moment
18:16 mst I mean, the form's largely only useful as part of the web app anyway, so long as you make sure all the business logic lives in the model
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18:24 romel actually i am banging my head against a wall right now and can't decide how to hook into dbix::class data deflation process to create structures appropriate for indexing with elasticsearch before/after it's saved into primary database. sorry guys, i know it probably sounds confusing..
18:28 romel i feel my current approach is rather primitive and ugly but i need it to be done as fast as possible so i decided to finish it in current state to rethink the whole model a bit later
18:34 mst romel: have you seen DBIx::Class::Indexed ?
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18:44 romel mst: no i haven't. looks cool. it wouldn't fully satisfy my needs as is but i think the idea with own component is great. thank you very much
18:45 mst romel: yeah, it's prior art at least
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18:49 * romel writes 'i will use cpan search' several times on a chalkboard :)
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18:51 ZoffixWork Hey, just curious, is the heartbeat timeout global? Is there a way to change it for certain operations only? I'm using Mojolicious::Plugin::PDFRenderer and it takes awhile to render. I'd like to increase the timeout, but only for format => pdf type of stuff.
18:52 Grinnz_ it's a timeout for the manager process, so yes it's global
18:52 ZoffixWork Oh, wait, I was reading the wrong thing.
18:52 ZoffixWork Ahhh. Oh well.
18:53 Grinnz_ you could fork_call the pdf rendering, and increase the inactivity timeout for those connections
18:53 lb remember that time copenhagen wanted to arrange mojoconf, at least some of core thought it was a great idea, oslo funding was agreed on, and then were told "we're seeking other options", and then lost interest because of nothing happening? not bitter
18:53 Grinnz_ see https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojolicious::Plugin::ForkCall
18:53 ZoffixWork aha, neat. Grinnz_++
18:54 batman jberger, marcus, sri, crab, tempire: can we change the channel topic to "mojoconf 2015: cancelled" ?
18:56 ZoffixWork :O
18:56 ZoffixWork Wow, what happened?
18:56 purl We don't know what happened, so tell everyone nothing happened.
18:56 ZoffixWork :(
18:58 ZoffixWork (I've read http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/today so now I know what happened)
19:02 ZoffixWork There's a typo in the code sample on http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo/Server/Prefork#heartbeat_interval  the first line is "heartbeat_intrval" should be "heartbeat_interval" (missing "e")
19:03 ZoffixWork Which is here: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/lib/Mojo/Server/Prefork.pm#L390
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22:35 sri sjn: yea, that's bullshit... i did not refuse to front travel/hotel... riche just always said he would handle everything, collected information, and said nothing at all until a few days ago
22:36 sri had i been informed in time it wouldn't have been a problem... but now it's all "how about you pay for flight/hotel yourself, last minute, in new york... maybe we will have leftover money and you get something back..."
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22:40 jabberwok http://blogs.perl.org/users/brian_d_foy/2015/05/mojoconf-is-cancelled-im-scrambling-to-do-something-anyway.html    :(
22:44 sri lb: yea, sorry about that, we really screwed up two times now
22:45 sri this was actually the second time a mojoconf failed
22:46 jabberwok third time's the charm, one hopes
22:46 sri first attempt failed because the organizer burned out before it went public
22:47 sri *if* we do mojoconf again, then only with a very experienced group that has done perl conferences before
22:48 sri no experimenting, no last minute stuff
22:48 sjn sri: dude, don't make it more difficult than it is
22:50 sjn sure, there's been comms problems. maybe too much. but the rational thing here is to get constructive about the issues, not to start pointing fingers and talk about experience
22:50 sri sjn: dude... i was blamed for something i didn't do
22:50 sjn instead, scale down, pull strings, find a way to make it fun again
22:52 sjn sri: sure, but I also see miscommunication, risk-aversiveness and lack of trust
22:52 sri i'm not actually involved in anything
22:53 sjn yea, *that's* bullshit
22:53 sjn every time you say something you're influencing people
22:53 sri perhaps time for me to shut up
22:53 sjn nah, just keep things positive
22:53 sjn that's enough in boatloads
22:54 sjn organizing stuff is really hard, especially when things don't go as planned
22:54 sjn and that's when you ignore the bad stuff, and keep going
22:55 sjn but noone can do that alone
22:55 sjn everyone needs some support, even if it's just a little encouragement
22:55 sjn and as far as I can tell riche has had his share
22:56 sjn and I'm sure several others who have been involved have too
22:57 jb360 joined #mojo
23:02 hernan604 :~
23:02 jabberwok as long as we meet before Perl 6 is released !
23:03 Zoffix Well, it'll be this Christmas, so you better hurry up!
23:04 Zoffix (this time for real, despite the long-running joke)
23:10 Zoffix For the conf: What if we do some online meeting sort of thing? Attendies could make volunteer donations to recover the expenses lost due to the cancellation. Brian d'Foy is planning something (https://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/34yit9/mojoconf_is_cancelled_im_scrambling_to_do/) and I think jberger wanted to do something online too.
23:57 ajr_ What is the sequence of events that leads from entering a URL to a Page not found... yet! error message?
23:58 ajr_ What should I be looking at to find the problem?
23:58 Zoffix ajr_, did you define that route?
23:58 Zoffix Does it have a template to render (or is told rendering is done)?
23:58 pink_mist start by running your app under a development environment and see the nice error page you get from that?
23:59 pink_mist which will have loads of useful info
23:59 ajr_ I believe that the route is defined; I'm looking at the error page.

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