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IRC log for #mojo, 2015-08-12

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:12 * jberger hands sri a sno-cone
02:15 Grinnz sno'd in again!
02:16 jberger very different occurance
02:16 mst Cone::MoreCrack
02:16 jberger so I'm addicted to Cities: Skylines now
02:17 jberger I think I'm going to need an intervention
02:17 Grinnz i tried that game for a bit but city building just isnt for me
02:17 Grinnz unless it's tropico
02:17 jberger last night I literally lost 2 hours, not that I only played for 2 but 2 of them completely vanished
02:17 Grinnz only 2?
02:18 Grinnz i've lost entire days to assassin's creed
02:18 jberger no I played for like 5, but it wen from midnight to 2am in "just a couple more minutes"
02:18 Grinnz that usually happens with imgur for me now
02:18 Grinnz damn you imgur!
02:18 mst I just re-installed steambirds on my nexus 7
02:18 mst this may be an error
02:19 jberger mst: :)
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02:20 mst oh, btw, the redux flux implementation is now in 1.0 RC
02:20 mst seems like the least stupid react framework I've yet seen
02:20 mst well worth a look
02:21 Grinnz so it doesn't give you reflux?
02:22 mst that's a different library
02:22 mst it's javascript, http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html applies
02:23 mst there's flux, reflux, fluxions, marty, alt, fluctuations and redux
02:23 mst and more, but those are the ones I read the source to
02:23 mst redux is nicer
02:23 Grinnz usually it's PHP that gives me reflux
02:26 jberger jwz really seemed to grok things, and then he got out
02:26 * jberger ponder a js library called antacids
02:26 Grinnz tums
02:26 mst I couldn't afford to buy a nightclub outright, but I could buy the lease for one
02:26 Grinnz hmm, copyright infringement, oh well
02:26 jberger licensing issues there
02:27 mst I have seriously considered this on my more annoying days
02:27 jberger mst: you would run a very interesting nightclub I'm sure
02:28 cpan_mojo Statocles-0.054 by PREACTION https://metacpan.org/release/PREACTION/Statocles-0.054
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02:38 sri i've just talked to a few folks here, about the state of the channel, and how i might retire from irc permanently
02:39 sri if there's even the smallest chance that we can get back to the state we were in just a few years back, i'd really like to try that first
02:39 sri the excessive swearing and abusive behavior has to stop
02:40 mst says the man who told me to fuck off earlier today
02:40 sri first warning
02:40 mst for what? you're the one who swore
02:40 sri no more fighting
02:41 bpmedley sri: Would it be a viable option to put a Standards of Conduct up somewhere?
02:41 Adurah Just not the Github one, hah.
02:41 sri i'd be very much in favor of that, if there's a good one
02:42 mst if you're going to hold yourself to the same standard, and accept other people's suggestions you've failed (probably not mine, I don't think that would help)
02:42 mst then sure
02:42 mst if it's universal, it's probably a good thing for all of us to try
02:42 mst bpmedley: we're already under the irc.perl.org SoC - I don't see the need for an additional one
02:43 sri i've been warned and even kicked by members of the core team on multiple occasions
02:43 bpmedley That's a good point.  I was under the impression it was a SoC for #perl and not irc.perl.org.  Thanks for the correction.
02:44 sri if the current state of this channel is in compliance with that SoC, it is not good enough
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02:46 bpmedley Hrmm.  An addendum might be necessary for cursing.
02:46 mst I doubt banning cursing is useful, unless you want sri and I to both be banned within a week
02:47 sri i'm in favor of banning excessive cursing
02:48 mst so long as you provide a specific definition of 'excessive' such that it doesn't get used as 'banning cursing as part of a sentence I don't like', that could work fine
02:48 firnsy temp banning cursing can only be a good thing
02:49 Adurah Bot that hands out curse tokens and bans.
02:49 firnsy excessive is any use
02:50 sri and abusive behavior in general
02:51 sri i don't care if that beginner didn't get your explanation for the third time, you'll be nice or shut up
02:51 firnsy Adurah is right, bot curse detection, via tokens maybe
02:51 sri that's how it used to be
02:52 Adurah I just found the bot idea novel/funny, heh.
02:52 firnsy i'd consider "shut up" an emotional response in that case an abusive
02:52 mst and so far this year, the count for 'using fuck *at* somebody' is: me: 0, sri: 2, both at me
02:53 firnsy not helpful
02:53 Adurah Always thought the attitude between the three letter nicks was all in good fun.
02:56 bpmedley I think it would be fantastisch to have a helpful channel for newbies and a collaborative one for new ideas.. :)  I'd be glad put a lot of effort in toning down my cursing.
02:56 firnsy sometimes, maybe ... but considering you're missing majority of the non-verbal cues on irc i'd argue it's rarely in "good fun"
02:57 firnsy to be honest, mojo could probably do with a designated community manager ... it's a pretty big community
02:58 sri truth is irc has made me very very unhappy recently, it's so far from what it used to be
02:58 sri maybe all dev communication should be moved to github, so the core team doesn't have to hang around here anymore
02:58 nicomen so basically it's not about cursing but about behaving in a way some people think are rude, no matter how correct it may feel for the person in question?
03:00 sri bpmedley: so, like abandoning this channel and just starting a new one?
03:00 firnsy moving all dev comms to github is no different to creating a dedicated mojo-community channel
03:01 sri bpmedley: you can have the same result with very strict moderation here i'd assume
03:01 bpmedley sri: Sorry, no, I wasn't inferring that a new channel be created.
03:01 firnsy cat non-dev discussions > #mojo-users or whatever
03:02 bpmedley I think it's a great idea to lead by example and try and foster rekindling of irc days driven by a more respectable form of communication.
03:02 firnsy i idle in dev channels because i want to see dev chatter, i've learned so much perl from dev chatter in this channel
03:02 sri for the record, very strict moderation worked wonders on the mailing list
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03:03 sri it has never been in a better state, just this channel is going down the drain
03:03 nicomen sri: can you explain how it is going down the drain? I have some ideas, but not sure they are the same as yours
03:04 sri see backlog
03:04 nicomen how far?
03:04 nicomen I read most of what happened today
03:13 nicomen there must be a way to articulate the exact problems, some people talking about something non-related?. Many hours of the day the channel is dead silent too. If you are missing more core dev technical discussions, are you thinking that they drown or are not even started because of the noise? or are you talking about all the newbie questions? or the impatient answers they might be given? or what?
03:17 bpmedley Another possibility could be to try and articulate a mantra of sorts for dealing with technical discussions in such a manner than all parties believe themselves to be heard, respected, and understood.  Does that make sense?
03:17 nicomen if you think some people have hostile appearances, I have to agree, but I also know that some people appear hostile when they only feel being helpful, patient and logical, and that others are lazy and stubborn, but it's hard to address that problem by just saying a general statement about the channel going down the drain.
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03:33 genio I've personally found the channel to be helpful and an overall fun place to be in.  Some topics are over my head, but lots of the conversation is pretty useful and I find myself searching the logs to "remember" certain topics.  my $0.02
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03:36 Grinnz in my opinion, any recent problems have been overshadowed by the talking about them, there hasnt really been that much of a problem
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03:59 sri Grinnz: you're too new to know how the channel used to be
04:00 sri nicomen: excessive swearing/abusive behavior
04:01 sri basically, i want the channel to be G rated again
04:02 sri jberger, marcus, batman, crab, tempire, Grinnz: at the end of the day we are responsible for setting the tone around here, and i think we failed recently
04:03 sri time to be more vigilante
04:04 sri so, use your powers liberally
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05:53 * jberger pokes his head out of Cities: Skylines and catches up
05:56 jberger http://mojocasts.com/yapc start at ~35:45 or so
05:56 jberger I want to be able to say that again
05:56 jberger (also I was in that room, before I even started to use Mojo. tempire++)
05:58 jberger aha, link with time included https://vimeo.com/44336954#t=35m45s
06:00 jberger I'm going to be tone police (with anyone who will help me)
06:01 jberger I hope you all will trust that if I ask you to tone it down, I'm doing it in the interest of the channel and will do my very best to be consistent
06:02 jberger all past conduct in this channel is hereby nullified, you all start on clean slates
06:03 jberger cheers peeps
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06:37 firnsy jberger: i've been idling in this channel for ~3 years, i consider your decorum the gold standard
06:37 firnsy jberger++
06:38 dave I always wonder why people focus on cursing as if somehow saying the same thing in different words wasn't just as bad
06:40 dave This channel has been great IMO. I do prefer self-control over controlling others, since the former is more likely to work. We'll see how this goes.
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07:27 * tempire bulks up
07:28 tempire I actually gave up on trying to manage the tone of the channel a while ago
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07:29 tempire That probably shows
07:30 tempire Seems like jberger has been doing a decent job
07:30 tempire Or at least trying
07:31 tempire I definitely support the no cursing concept. There are too many cultures in here to assume that doesn't have a negative affect.
07:31 tempire Even if US culture is the one that has the main problem with it.
07:36 tempire Man that intro to mojolicious talk was a long time ago
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11:58 murre a/whois awdwdwdawdadawdaw2~3
11:58 murre c
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12:43 sri dave: which is why i also mentioned abusive behavior, independent of swearing
12:45 sri tempire: also, think of the children
12:46 sri (seriously, i want all kinds of beginners to feel welcome here again)
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12:55 buu So can I swear at inanimate objects
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12:59 sri buu: nope
13:00 buu ok
13:00 sri although, playful terms like "frack" might be acceptable, not sure
13:00 sri that was more the culture around here
13:01 buu At the risk of going offtopic very quickly I always found the culture on irc.perl to be considerably more abusive than any other irc network, it's why I was so rarely here
13:03 * mst did a whole lightning talk once where every instance of an epithet starting with 'f' was a different variation
13:03 mst frack, feck, fsck, etc.
13:03 mst was good fun
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13:12 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/828#issuecomment-130295850
13:13 mst how does the receiver know the message has ended in that case?
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13:38 Grinnz i don't much care about language use but if everyone thinks it's for the best i won't argue
13:44 jberger I don't think its language at heart, its attitude
13:44 jberger I don't at all care if people swear, its when they swear at someone that I start to care
13:45 Mikey oh ok.  so we're still allowed to swear?  *phew*
13:46 sri no
13:46 sri the channel is now basically G rated
13:46 Mikey oh ok.  well i guess swearing doesn't add much to the conversation anyway.
13:47 jontaylor I can support that, in the back of my mind though, I know its only a matter of time until I slip up
13:47 * sri nods
13:47 jberger ok, sri makes the rules, G rated it is
13:47 sri you'll just get a warning for a slip up
13:47 jontaylor just have to make sure that the cure is not worse than the disease :p
13:47 mst a genuine mistake doesn't need a warning, just a reminder; #postgresql self-polices that way really nicely
13:47 sri disregard of the rules will be temp ban into ban
13:48 Mikey i'll just pretend im around my kids.. i only really slip up when i've had a few beverages.
13:48 Grinnz however, can we put something in the topic so this policy is discoverable?
13:48 mst often with me pointing it out, because FFS if I'm going to go to the effort to avoid swearing, everbody else can -ing well do so
13:48 Mikey and this is how swearing police are formed
13:48 sri Grinnz: if you can put it into simple terms
13:49 mst it's more kinda like profanoholics anonymous
13:49 Mikey i think "g-rated" is universally understood
13:49 mst we all support each other towards not -ing it up
13:49 sri mst: language
13:49 Grinnz you're looking dashing today
13:49 Topic for #mojo is now a friendly place to discuss Mojolicious ????| log at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo
13:49 jberger ^^ my first attempt, thoughts?
13:50 Grinnz too indirect IMO
13:50 sri now i don't know what it used to say
13:50 Grinnz lol
13:50 mst sri: my language has been completely clean since you requested it to be
13:50 jberger I think its been just the mugs for a while
13:50 sri personally, i would have appended " | G rated" i guess
13:51 sri mst: "FFS"
13:51 Topic for #mojo is now a friendly place to discuss Mojolicious ????| log at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo | Please keep the channel G-rated
13:51 mst sri: expands just fine to 'for frack's sake' or, my preference, 'flying fornication's sake'
13:51 sri consider yourself warned
13:52 sri (it was a reminder until you started playing games)
13:52 jberger probably for the best that purl isn't around
13:52 jberger she'd get booted pretty quickly :-P
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13:52 mst that wasn't a game, that was deadly serious. I do, in fact, specifically expand that to 'flying fornication's sake' when in G-rated channels
13:53 mst please try and assume good faith while we're getting started
13:53 mst I will, however, attempt to remember to type it out in full to save people confusion
13:53 * genio implements his get-rich-quick scheme and puts a jar on the table.  $1 per cussword!!
13:54 sri allright, it's pretty obvious playful curse words do not work
13:54 Topic for #mojo is now a friendly place to discuss Mojolicious ????| log at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/today | Please keep the channel G-rated
13:54 sri what was the original channel topic?
13:54 sri Grinnz: capitalization is all off
13:54 Grinnz i was hoping the log showed when it changed but it doesn't... my weechat does
13:54 genio Grinnz: You're still missing the part about paying genio.  sheesh
13:55 Grinnz original topic was: ???? cheers | http://mojolicio.us | http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/today
13:56 Topic for #mojo is now ???? cheers | http://mojolicio.us | http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/today | G-rated
13:56 sri funny thing, that fits exactly into my terminal window
13:56 mst that's because your terminal window is the correct width.
13:57 * Grinnz has fat terminal windows
13:57 mst ... your terminal window so fat it depends on TWO copies of Acme::Mom::Yours ...
13:57 Grinnz of course... thats an actual module :P
13:58 * Grinnz reports bug: Dist::Zilla not included in dependencies
13:58 mst we probably need to redo it
13:59 mst should depend on RapidApp too
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14:11 batman i don't get the spec for https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/828 ... what is the difference "does not contain a payload body" and "empty payload body" ?
14:11 batman i mean, how do you construct a HTTP message where you can tell the difference?
14:12 sri context
14:12 batman like GET vs POST?
14:13 sri yes
14:13 sri or a 1xx response vs a 2xx response with an empty body
14:13 sri 1xx just can't have a body
14:14 sri sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't
14:14 sri responses are a little more complicated than requests though
14:15 sri since there's more ways to delimit the body
14:16 batman how about moving the content_length() logic to fix_headers() in ::Request and ::Response and make it behave differently?
14:17 sri why?
14:17 batman keeping it as is in ::Response, but making it more complicated in ::Request
14:17 batman so mojo can keep on saying "Content-Length: 0" on POST
14:17 sri i don't think this is worth much overhead
14:18 * sri would change his vote to -1 if there was a real cost
14:19 batman is it worth if i post my suggestion to the issue? i don't want to do it, if it just doesn't make any sense
14:19 sri what we have right now worked well for many years and is spec compliant too, so there is no real need to change anything
14:20 sri batman: sure, but i will vote against it
14:21 sri (unless you can come up with real gains to offset the cost)
14:21 batman because it has a cost, overhead, it's complicated or something else?
14:21 sri ^^
14:22 batman i don't get where the cost is. we already call fix_headers in ::Request and ::Response, so i don't see how it has more cost than your patch.
14:22 sri it's additional code that needs to be maintained
14:22 sri more complexity
14:22 batman just to be sure... are you +1 on your patch?
14:23 sri more like neutral i guess
14:23 batman i see.
14:23 batman thanks
14:23 sri more complexity in protocol handling is actually very costly in my opinion
14:24 sri the goal should be to simplify
14:25 batman i get it now.. my idea require a bunch of if/else code+method checks i guess.
14:25 batman s/i guess//
14:26 batman i was paying attention but my brain is high on ice cream, so i kept on forgetting the important parts :(
14:26 batman uhm... am i allowed to say "high on ice cream" ..?
14:26 jberger what about systems that do allow for a GET request with a body
14:27 sri just works
14:27 batman jberger: they are even more off than the server they are talking about in the issue
14:27 batman :P
14:27 sri we do have to handle custom methods
14:27 jberger elasticsearch I believe is such a system
14:29 sri my patch only eliminates "Content-Length: 0"
14:30 sri for the record, GET requests with body are perfectly valid, according to fielding they just shouldn't have semantic meaning
14:32 mst ahh, elasticsearch
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14:37 jberger its good for what it is good for
14:42 * sri thinks the patch makes mojolicious more versatile, since you can decide for yourself if you want to send Content-Length: 0
14:43 jberger ^^ I like that reasoning
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15:13 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-ValidateTiny-0.16 by KOORCHIK https://metacpan.org/release/KOORCHIK/Mojolicious-Plugin-ValidateTiny-0.16
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15:20 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v3zWY
15:20 good_news_everyon mojo/master 122d1a3 Sebastian Riedel: improve Mojo::Message to generate slightly smaller HTTP messages (closes
15:20 good_news_everyon left #mojo
15:23 * Grinnz_ is in suspense
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15:23 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih force-pushed master from 122d1a3 to a985ac7: http://git.io/BhzC7A
15:23 good_news_everyon mojo/master a985ac7 Sebastian Riedel: improve Mojo::Message to generate slightly smaller HTTP messages (closes #828)
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15:23 Grinnz_ heh
15:26 sri guess my vim setup is borked, when i typed the #828 it inserted a newline and turned it into a comment
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15:27 jberger sri: you are back on vim then?
15:27 sri nope, i use vim for all the small stuff
15:27 jberger ah
15:27 sri and atom for heavy lifting
15:28 Grinnz_ all the... small things...
15:29 jberger Grinnz_: argh, now I have listen to blink
15:29 * jberger opens spotify
15:29 Grinnz_ what have i done
15:31 * sri too
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15:56 sri for anyone wondering how http message bodies actually work... for requests there is only one way to declare them, with a Content-Length header, if one is missing Content-Length: 0 is implicit
15:57 sri some servers do support Transfer-Encoding: chunked, but that is not spec compliant
15:58 sri responses are a lot more complicated, some like 1xx, 204, 304 have implicit rules, which forbid a body
15:58 sri same for responses to HEAD requests
15:58 dave wait...so if I send an http message with non-zero content and no content-length header...the browser will consider it a 0 length response?
15:59 sri wait and listen :)
15:59 dave yes sit
15:59 dave er sir
16:00 meredith s/ir$/ri/
16:00 sri then there's an explicit Content-Length header or Transfer-Encoding: chunked (latter has precedence)
16:00 sri and last but not least we have Connection: close, a third alternative that terminates the body by closing the connection
16:01 sri default for HTTP/1.1 is keep-alive
16:02 sri dave: so, it depends on context
16:03 sri a body without Content-Length or Transfer-Encoding can be valid if the connection will be closed
16:04 batman sri++ # spec ninja
16:04 sri that's the basics... then there's connection upgrades too :)
16:04 sri Upgrade: websocket and CONNECT
16:04 sri both have special rules too
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16:05 sri CONNECT is a mess, i can't actually explain... but for Upgrade, basically everything after your response is the new protocol, or remains HTTP if the upgrade failed
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16:06 sri if you're certain your upgrade will succeed you can actually send stuff with the request
16:06 batman I got an email today saying: "I didn't have a clue Mojolicious was so deeply based on actual standards (in the making)."
16:06 batman I think that was a funny coincident :)
16:06 sri (right after the request, as a single write())
16:08 jberger I think its surprising that people are surprised that a framework would be guided by the standards :-)
16:08 jberger sri++ # keeping to the standards
16:08 asymp There may be a bug in turning relative url into absolute url in mojo. Here is an example:
16:08 asymp perl -Mojo -E '$url="httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/ru/misc/rewriteguide.html"; $url_obj=Mojo::URL->new($url);g($url)->dom->find("a[href]")->each(sub {say Mojo::URL->new($_->{href})->to_abs($url_obj);})' |grep 'ru/en'
16:08 asymp the result is httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/ru/en/misc/rewriteguide.html
16:09 dave I think it's surprising that someone is surprised that people are surprised that a framework would be guided by the standards ;)
16:09 asymp it should be httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/en/misc/rewriteguide.html
16:09 sri asymp: a url is not absolute without a scheme
16:09 batman dave: Hehe
16:10 sri in fact, even //httpd.apache.org/docs is relative
16:10 asymp sri: ok. Is this correct then?
16:10 asymp perl -Mojo -E '$url="http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/ru/misc/rewriteguide.html"; $url_obj=Mojo::URL->new($url);g($url)->dom->find("a[href]")->each(sub {say Mojo::URL->new($_->{href})->to_abs($url_obj);})' |grep 'ru/en'
16:10 jberger dave++ # I think. I'm still trying to parse that sentence
16:10 dave sri: that's relative by strict standards interpretation or actual usage? :)
16:11 sri dave: specs
16:11 jberger <3 //
16:11 sri although the spec situation is blurry
16:11 jberger I have used that a lot lately
16:11 sri you have to juggle ietf, w3c and whatwg
16:11 dave I just tried that by typing it into a browser...it defaulted to the file: scheme. O.o
16:11 jberger I really need to figure out someplace to give my "mojoliicous at the command line talk"
16:11 jberger so that I write
16:12 asymp sri: the above leads to the same result, unless you say that one is incorrect as well.
16:12 jberger *so that I write it
16:15 * preaction joins #mojo
16:16 preaction did I miss something about a talk?
16:17 Onigiri So earlier today I had a weird situation with mojo::pg... http://paste.debian.net/291666/ clearly a scoping issue, no clue why it would happen though.
16:17 sri asymp: this looks fine to me
16:17 sri perl -Mojo -E 'my $base = Mojo::URL->new("http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/ru/misc/rewriteguide.html"); g($base)->dom->find("a[href]")->each(sub {say $_->{href} . "\n  -> " . Mojo::URL->new($_->{href})->to_abs($base)})'
16:18 sri asymp: you might want to consult the specs
16:18 dave Onigirl: what's different about those two code fragments?
16:19 Onigiri dave: the second has a my $res inside the loop
16:19 Onigiri ... or rather, it should be "my $res = " on line 18
16:19 dave I was going to have my eyes checked there ;)
16:20 Onigiri Heh, oops
16:21 dave what is in @splits?
16:21 Onigiri It's an array of two numbers
16:23 dave I've no clue from just looking at this :) Scoping doesn't seem logical to me, it might be that the SQL isn't doing what you think on the 2nd number?
16:23 sri so odd that postgresql doesn't have better books
16:24 dave I've also had to use Try::Tiny (or eval, you pick) to get at $db->query() database errors
16:24 dave sri: Indeed!
16:25 asymp sri: it turns ../en/misc/rewriteguide.html under ru into ru/en... Is that really correct?
16:25 asymp sri: I would think skipping 'ru' is the intended behavior.
16:25 Onigiri dave: The query runs fine manually with the args put in.
16:26 jberger preaction: hehe
16:26 jberger do you think Chicago.pm can handle another mojo talk :-P
16:26 sri asymp: ../ is one directory, not two
16:27 sri asymp: that is actually super heavily tested, and i'd be very surprised if we got something wrong https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/t/mojo/url.t#L675
16:28 dave sri: I begin to see why most mysql users will not like postgres at first though. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7205878/order-by-using-clause-in-postgresql
16:28 PopeFelix jberger, If you can send me slides, I can turn them into a talk to KC.pm.  Would be nice to resuscitate KC.pm.
16:28 jberger PopeFelix: I have some talks on my github already
16:29 jberger its funny that you should say it, there was some conference out there that was soliciting talks and I almost did it
16:29 preaction PopeFelix: there's a few chicago.pm talks available for use as well: https://github.com/chicagopm
16:29 dave sri: I had to do all that operator stuff without really having context and a background on it just to get my geometric data to work with select distinct
16:29 PopeFelix jberger, preaction - awesome, thanks.
16:30 PopeFelix jberger, was it KCDC?
16:30 preaction i was thinking of eventually turning them into a book of some kind, but that idea requires time and effort
16:32 asymp sri: thanks. So it looks like apache 2.2 docs site is incorrect. That's surprising as it has been around for years.
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16:32 Grinnz_ meh, apache docs aren't the most reliable :/
16:34 jberger PopeFelix: midwest.io
16:35 PopeFelix $200 worth of nope.
16:36 jberger PopeFelix: they were offering travel/lodging/admission for speakers, I was just trying to figure out if I wanted to have a free trip to KC
16:36 PopeFelix :)
16:36 sri asymp: it does seem odd
16:36 PopeFelix And why wouldn't you want a free trip to KC? ;)
16:37 jberger PopeFelix: the biggest reason I didn't was that I found out on the last day for submission
16:37 PopeFelix Well, that's acceptable. ;)
16:38 sri asymp: but your browser should show the same result
16:39 sri asymp: i see this in chrome http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/ru/ko/misc/rewriteguide.html
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17:22 asymp sri: yes. even apache 2.4 is incorrect: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/fr/rewrite/ which has links like http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/fr/tr/rewrite/
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17:27 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v3gZU
17:27 good_news_everyon mojo/master 1d35726 Sebastian Riedel: no need for a Connection header
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17:33 Dada hi. just a basic question about mojolicious (or about http, I'm not sure) : the datas stored in the session are stored in a cookie, which is stored on the user's computer. So when we access those datas, does mojolicious send a request to the user's computer to get the cookie, or is the cookie already present because it's sent with every request from the user ?
17:34 dave the cookie is already present in a request
17:34 Dada k, thx!
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17:57 thowe This may sound silly, but when setting up a helper, if I am not writing the sub inline, is the syntax just like $self->helper(helpername => &subname)  ?  Or is the & dropped?
17:59 Grinnz \&subname creates a sub ref appropriate to pass
17:59 thowe ah, a sub ref...
17:59 Grinnz &subname will execute the sub and pass its return value, probably not what you want
17:59 thowe yes, thank you
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18:42 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v3gS0
18:42 good_news_everyon mojo/master fe2d4f5 Sebastian Riedel: there is no need to use the Connection header all the time
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18:43 sri saving all the trees
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18:46 sri actually shakes up the profiling results quite a bit
18:46 sri my fast.pl benchmark went from 1680 rps to 1780 rps
18:47 jberger woah
18:47 sri sometimes reading RFCs does pay off :)
18:49 mst this is relying on the fact that we're not passing the appropriate headers to send a second request so it can take the close() as 'yep, no body' ?
18:52 sri it's just a cleanup, no real changes
18:52 sri relying more on implicit semantics
18:53 mst yes, what I mean is, the fact that the server knows this is going to be the last request on the connection is why we can omit length 0 even on a post, right?
18:55 sri response to a post?
18:56 sri for the request it doesn't matter at all
18:56 mst I thought you were dropping sending CL in empty requests, not empty responses, I probably misread the code
18:57 sri for both
18:57 sri all this code is shared
18:57 mst right, so, for methods where a body -is- expected, is the idea that you're dropping it because EOF will signal the end of the HTTP message in those cases?
18:57 * mst thought 'no Content-Length' meant 'remainder of the stream is the body'
18:58 sri Content-Length: 0 is implicit if the header is missing from a request
18:58 mst but not a response, no?
18:58 sri also there
18:59 sri it's a bit magical though
18:59 Grinnz what about streaming responses?
18:59 sri for a keep-alive connection Content-Length: 0 will be implicit
19:00 sri but if the connection gets closed, the message will be terminated by EOF
19:00 mst http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec4.html#sec4.4
19:01 mst I don't see anything about implicit CL there
19:02 sri i don't use the old spec anymore
19:05 mst 3.3.3 of 7230 says the same thing
19:06 mst > 7.  Otherwise, this is a response message without a declared message body length, so the message body length is determined by the number of octets received prior to the server closing the connection.
19:08 mst sri: I can't see anything in section 6 of 7230 either
19:08 mst is there a bit of the standard I'm missing that says 'for a keep-alive connection Content-Length: 0 will be implicit' ? I can't find it :/
19:11 sri i don't remember if it was actually written down somewhere like that
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19:15 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v32fD
19:15 good_news_everyon mojo/master c0c7a93 Sebastian Riedel: remove deprecated build_body and build_headers methods from Mojo::Content
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19:16 mst ok, so as far as I can see, omitting it on responses isn't valid
19:16 mst might work for some clients, but 3.3.3 7 indicates it's incorrect unless I'm misreading it
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19:18 mst oh freaking github
19:18 * mst fixes
19:22 sri i can actually trigger an edge case in chrome
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19:29 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v32LF
19:29 good_news_everyon mojo/master 139938c Sebastian Riedel: use more Content-Length headers again
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19:30 sri at least the Connection performance boost remains
19:32 mst you could still do it on requests if there was a sane place to do so
19:33 sri that's what batman was looking into, it was pretty ugly
19:34 sri i'm ok with how it is now
19:35 batman sri: could it be possible to make it possible to not set the header if something *crazy* was done in $ua->one(start => ...); ?
19:36 batman i'm not sure where i'm going with this, but maybe it could be possible to *disable* setting this automatically?
19:36 sri umm
19:36 sri ...->fix_headers; ...->headers->remove('Content-Length');
19:37 batman oh. maybe that would be good enough for olegwtf ?
19:41 sri btw. behavior is at the very least very inconsistent among browsers
19:42 mst well, the bug would cause the second and subsequent responses on a persistent connection to be treaded as part of the response body to the first request, I'd expect
19:42 sri one example is the redirect you get from http://amazon.com
19:42 sri HTTP/1.1 and no Content-Length or Transfer-Encoding
19:43 mst it's fine provided it's the last request on a connection
19:43 mst by bet is chrome tried to pipeline requests
19:43 mst browsers are probably quite tolerant of noise after </html> and similar though
19:43 sri oh well
19:44 sri that's why we can't have nice things
19:59 sri reminds me of a preparation task for new css4 selectors in Mojo::DOM::CSS
19:59 sri in case someone would like to get more familiar with it
20:00 sri for :matches(> div > p) we need some reorganizing
20:00 jberger wow
20:00 sri the interpreter currently can't handle selectors that start with a combinator (>)
20:01 sri i wouldn't support for that kind of selector in general
20:01 jberger I wonder about the reentrant nature
20:01 sri like $dom->at('> div > p')
20:01 jberger is that not a concern?
20:01 sri relative to the current element
20:02 dave wow ... postgres and INSERT .. RETURNING :) way cool
20:03 sri jberger: nope
20:03 Grinnz_ dave: indeed
20:03 sri you already have :not()
20:03 jberger oh, right
20:03 mst DBIx::Class uses INSERT RETURNING for SERIAL columns automatically
20:03 mst it's ace
20:03 Grinnz_ mysql and sqlite aren't so lucky
20:03 sri nesting is limited for those pseudo classes
20:04 sri anyway, the task, should someone accept it, is to make $dom->at('> div > p') work
20:05 jberger I'll try to take a crack at it later
20:05 sri \o/
20:05 jberger still bashing my head against ansible etc
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20:23 sri lol http://www.databasesoup.com/2015/08/please-security-test-our-code.html
20:24 Grinnz_ heh
20:26 jberger awesome
20:26 jberger <3
20:29 dave omg oracle -= 1000
20:29 Grinnz_ i think that puts them over -9000
20:30 dave LOL
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20:30 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v32oO
20:30 good_news_everyon mojo/master bf2e739 Sebastian Riedel: slightly more realistic example
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20:45 sri btw. moving forward with signtures in the docs, i think what we could do is add a section to http://mojolicio.us/perldoc#BASICS that explains how some special features like signatures are used everywhere, and why we omit the "use feature 'signatures'"
20:46 sri even if signatures in the code are still far away
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20:46 sri we can at least make the docs more attractive that way
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20:55 * sri opens https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/830
20:55 jberger documentation conventions
20:55 jberger that could also explain that how $app $c etc are used
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20:56 sri seems reasonable
20:57 Grinnz_ i agree with that
20:57 jberger "although $self is the conventional perl method invocant name, this documentation will often use $app to denote an instance of Mojolicious and $c to denote an instance of Mojolicious::Controller" <-- for example
20:57 Grinnz_ +1
20:57 Grinnz_ seems to be a common source of confusion
20:57 jberger or rather than even deal with discussion of invocants
21:00 jberger "certain variable names are used to identify instances of certain classes, $app isa Mojolicious, $c isa Mojolicious::Controller, $ua isa Mojo::UserAgent, $t isa Test::Mojo etc
21:00 jberger then maybe mention $self as a generic invocant to a methof
21:00 jberger d
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21:12 jontaylor have any of you guys deployed minion on FreeBSD ?
21:13 jontaylor i’m new to freebsd (plenty of linux) so i’m going to have a crack at making my own service scripts for it but would appreciate a heads up on any gotchas if anyone knows of any
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21:47 jberger jontaylor: yessir
21:49 jberger jontaylor: https://gist.github.com/jberger/dc540bdb05df4f438231
21:50 jberger you have to set minion_app to the path to your script (since you are unlikely to have the default)
21:51 jberger the first iteration of my script (before the -j option) was MUCH more impressive
21:51 jberger but this is what you want now
21:52 thowe Apparently all my annoying Perl talk at the office has been paying off.  One of my coworkers has been trying to learn Perl now for a few days.  he was just asking me some questions and I helped him set up perlbrew.
21:53 jberger thowe++
21:54 thowe He was also looking at the Mojo::Lite docs \o/
21:56 PopeFelix Mojo::Lite is cool. I threw together a demonstration REST API with it in a couple of days.
21:57 absolut_todd joined #mojo
21:57 thowe I added the Mojo project I am working on at work to our private Github.  i think I sparked some interest maybe
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21:58 Grinnz_ it is a nice thing to show people and say "yeah, this just works"
21:58 thowe I was shocked an amazed at something Mojo "just did for me" yesterday and now I can't remember what it was....
21:59 t4nk641 Can anyone help me with the following problem:
21:59 PopeFelix no.
21:59 PopeFelix :)
21:59 t4nk641 I have wildcard route
21:59 PopeFelix no, seriously, go on.  i'm just fooling.
21:59 * batman just booked ticket to YAPC::EU
21:59 t4nk641 oh no, c'mon guys
22:00 thowe Oh, yeah I do...  I would need to show with code example.  but long story short, url_for "knew" where it was in my hierarchy.  I was like, wait, what?  Cool.
22:00 PopeFelix t4nk641, seriously, go on. I was just fooling.
22:00 t4nk641 the route looks like this: '/*everything'
22:00 t4nk641 I want to "quit" the route handler and pass processing to the next matched route
22:01 Grinnz_ t4nk641: you can add conditions to routes, though that isn't always the best way
22:01 t4nk641 let me explain
22:01 t4nk641 my wildcard route looks up URL from a database
22:01 Grinnz_ https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojolicious::Guides::Routing#Conditions
22:02 t4nk641 and if it finds a matching route, then it server it, if not, it must go on
22:02 jberger batman: excellent! have fun!
22:02 batman thanks :)
22:02 jberger batman: are you going to give a talk?
22:02 PopeFelix t4nk641, is there a reason you can't generate the routes at startup?  Or do routes get added while the app is running?
22:02 batman i tried to, but i was too late :/
22:02 t4nk641 yes! they have to be dynamic
22:03 t4nk641 change during runtime
22:03 batman so only beer this time... (i'm not very sad about it, hehe)
22:03 jberger I can't go to a conference without giving a talk
22:03 jberger its a hold-over from my academia days
22:03 Grinnz_ t4nk641: you could look at https://metacpan.org/source/SRI/Mojolicious-6.14/lib/Mojolicious/Plugin/HeaderCondition.pm and see if you can write a similar plugin for your condition logic
22:04 t4nk641 thanks, will have a look
22:04 batman jberger: hehe. that's cool. i wanted to give a talk based on one of my most recent blog posts
22:04 jberger Grinnz_ / t4nk641 : why won't this just work with an "under"
22:04 jberger ?
22:04 batman but they already had too many people trying to fit into the schedule :)
22:05 Grinnz_ jberger: it might, depending on his routes
22:05 jberger batman: ah, I was just going to suggest emailing them and offering to fill in for cancellations, but I guess that is unlikely to be the problem in that case
22:05 Grinnz_ t4nk641: you could put all of the "other" routes under the wildcard route, and then the wildcard route would return true to continue to other routes or false to stop dispatch
22:05 batman that's what i did :)
22:06 PopeFelix Yeah, I would just load the list of routes from the DB and dispatch from there.
22:06 Grinnz_ t4nk641: https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojolicious::Guides::Routing#Under
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22:07 Grinnz_ t4nk641: with that method the wildcard route could just be a '/' route, then you can get the path from $c->req->url
22:08 Grinnz_ hmm actually not true; if it doesn't match something under it then it won't work
22:08 Grinnz_ still need the wildcard
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22:10 batman jberger: "top of the doc" is that top of _every_ pm file, or in some sort of introduction manual?
22:11 batman #830 ^
22:11 jberger batman: I meant the addition that sri mentioned
22:11 Grinnz_ introduction
22:11 jberger under #BASIC
22:11 batman sweet. sounds good :)
22:11 jberger I'm starting to soften on this stuff
22:11 jberger I do worry that people are going to have trouble with copy-paste from the docs
22:12 batman hehe
22:13 batman yeah... it could make it less newbie friendly.
22:13 batman like me trying to understand ruby :P
22:13 Grinnz_ i honestly couldn't judge what impact it would have on that without seeing what users say
22:14 batman i agree. i also think we need some more "cool factor".
22:14 batman and i like the idea that mojo is pushing forward
22:15 Grinnz_ i dont know if CPAN will ever get out of the 5.10.1 rut :/
22:15 Grinnz_ damn centos...
22:15 batman :/
22:17 batman i'm very happy there's perl-build, perlbrew and plenv to "fix" that
22:18 Grinnz_ indeed
22:18 batman it's very easy to get an alternative perl installed nowadays
22:18 batman we do that @work (we are running centos)
22:19 Grinnz_ i think the perl we use at work is custom compiled from tarball. haha.
22:19 Grinnz_ if i get to be in charge of a new perl build it'll be from perl-build
22:20 batman it's about the same, except the custom build might have unexpected flags en/disabled
22:20 batman s/about//
22:20 Grinnz_ and no PatchPerl
22:21 batman do you need that? i thought that was for older perls...
22:21 Grinnz_ apparently it was compiled with 64-bit int o_0
22:21 * batman will stop. i don't follow :/
22:22 Grinnz_ -Duse64bitint
22:22 Grinnz_ i dont know, i feel like thats default anyway...
22:22 batman nice! http://act.yapc.eu/ye2015/talk/6252 ... i was *afraid* this would be the only scraper talk: http://act.yapc.eu/ye2015/talk/6206
22:23 Grinnz_ :)
22:23 Grinnz_ diegok++
22:24 batman i guess the mojo talk could be named "the even more modern web scraping" ;)
22:24 Grinnz_ hehe
22:25 batman diegok: want me to come and ask questions? :)
22:25 batman maybe i should figure out what the css selector is called that isn't supported yet, and ask if you support that
22:25 batman mohahaha.
22:25 * batman is so evil
22:26 pink_mist lol
22:26 batman diegok: i meant it in a friendly/fun way.
22:27 Adura_ Who swore?
22:27 Grinnz_ magnet
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22:32 PopeFelix What just happened there?
22:32 Adura_ Someone swore.
22:32 PopeFelix dammit!
22:33 batman PopeFelix: language.
22:33 PopeFelix Seriously, what just happened? My client said 'net.split'. What does that mean?
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22:33 Grinnz_ a netsplit is when a server dies or disconnects from the rest of the network
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22:34 PopeFelix Oh, I see.
22:34 Grinnz_ so it becomes two networks, if the server didn't die
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22:34 Grinnz_ until they rejoin
22:35 PopeFelix OK.  So when the link between two servers in the network goes down for whatever reason, you get a split. Is that right?
22:35 Grinnz_ yea
22:35 PopeFelix cool.
22:35 Grinnz_ users on that one server will see everyone on other servers leave, users on other servers will see users on that one server leave
22:35 PopeFelix how many boxen are in the irc.perl.org network?
22:35 Grinnz_ and theoretically multiple servers could split due to some internet problem
22:36 PopeFelix Those nickname enforcers don't mess around. ;)
22:37 Grinnz_ dunno how many servers. the website doesnt say
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22:40 pink_mist and /map is restricted to opers :/
22:41 PopeFelix / nuts
22:44 jberger mst could tell you, if he wants
22:49 sri in retrospect, it is odd that Mojo::Message doesn't have ->html and ->xml methods
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22:49 sri to get Mojo::DOM objects in different modes
22:50 Grinnz_ sri: yeah i was thinking of proposing ->xml
22:50 Grinnz_ or ->dom_xml or something...
22:50 sri eeeep
22:50 pink_mist time to deprecate ->dom? :P that'd not break anything right?
22:50 Grinnz_ hahahaha
22:50 sri ;p
22:51 sri ->html, ->xml, ->json would have been nice though
22:51 sri oh, and ->text
22:52 Grinnz_ too bad ->dom already takes an argument
22:56 sri lets just pretend xml doesn't exist
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22:56 Grinnz_ that doesnt work so well for my xml apis
22:57 sri you're not even trying
22:57 Grinnz_ i'm trying really hard but i can't wish them into json apis :(
22:58 Grinnz_ Microsoft and Wolfram Alpha are the only two i still have i think
22:59 sri i really wouldn't mind ->xml... but it seems odd next to ->dom
22:59 Grinnz_ Microsoft's reads like a java application... Wolfram's is just a pile of things
22:59 bpmedley Grinnz_: May I ask what you do with Wolfram Alpha?
22:59 Grinnz_ i have a command for my bot to query it
22:59 bpmedley Sounds fancy.. :)
22:59 Grinnz_ which i need to improve so that it only returns a couple of results until asked for more, heh
23:00 sri haha $res->xml->dom
23:00 Grinnz_ oo, that could work
23:01 Grinnz_ https://github.com/Grinnz/maverick/blob/master/lib/Bot/Maverick/Plugin/Wolfram.pm
23:01 Grinnz_ see _reply_wolfram_error if you want to see what i mean about "a pile of things"
23:02 bpmedley Grinnz_: Did you get the SQLite stuff working?
23:02 Grinnz_ yeah, it seems to work ok... i don't use it in any real applications yet heh
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23:13 sri https://gist.github.com/anonymous/2f7eb3e1c01fa6f4df2a
23:13 * sri shrugs
23:14 Grinnz_ =head2 x-www-form-urlencoded
23:14 Grinnz_ i think you missed :P
23:14 sri lol
23:14 sri that is not the first
23:14 sri atom started autocorrecting me suddenly
23:14 Grinnz_ lol
23:15 sri new "feature" i suppose -.-
23:18 sri hmm, i don't like it enough
23:18 Grinnz_ hmm does Mojo::DOM->xml(0) disable xml autodetection though?
23:18 sri yes
23:18 sri if i was starting fresh, i would just use ->xml and ->html
23:19 Grinnz_ with ->dom, it would still need to autodetect for backwards compatibility
23:19 sri hmm
23:20 sri we'll just keep ->dom
23:20 sri it should be good enough most of the time
23:21 Grinnz_ i'm ok with doing https://github.com/Grinnz/maverick/blob/master/lib/Bot/Maverick/Plugin/Wolfram.pm#L87 -- the convenience would just be nice if there was a clean way
23:22 sri why does wolfram generate bad xml?
23:22 Grinnz_ neither of these XML apis have an indication of being XML :/
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23:37 jontaylor thanks for the rc script jberger
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