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IRC log for #mojo, 2015-08-16

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01:07 theo sri: I guess I express a lot more than I expect.
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02:23 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v351J
02:23 good_news_everyon mojo/master 36abce9 Sebastian Riedel: make perltidy happy
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02:24 sri btw. this is a good one-liner for running perltidy against all mojo modules
02:24 sri find lib/ -name '*.pm' -print -exec perltidy -pro=.perltidyrc -nst -b -bext='/' {} \;
02:26 Onigiri sri: and then perltidy borks your code, just a bit. Heh
02:26 Grinnz thats what git is for
02:26 Grinnz sri maybe that would be good to have somewhere central
02:27 Grinnz dunno where
02:27 Grinnz wiki
02:27 Grinnz ?
02:28 preaction i need to adapt that to run podspell+aspell
02:30 sri the warning perltidy produced was actually quite funny
02:30 sri "67: operator in print statement not recommended"
02:30 sri now look at the commit
02:30 Grinnz lol
02:30 Grinnz TIL usleep is print
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03:35 jberger Isn't that warning more of a critic kind of catch?
03:35 Grinnz i'd think so yea
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03:51 damaya Hi folks
03:52 damaya I know some of you here are Mac users. I just got one and I'm wondering what you all would suggest in setting up a dev environment.
03:54 damaya I've done some searching on the subject, but most of what I'm finding is pretty outdated.
03:55 Grinnz not a mac person, but perlbrew/perl-build like anywhere else id assume
03:55 bpmedley damaya: I use MacVim and a virutal machine a logt.
03:55 bpmedley MacVim has a super sweet command-line command called "mvim"
03:56 damaya Awesome! I don't have to stop using vim :D
03:56 damaya What I was looking at recommended Atom, and I've been using it for a few hours now but not a big fan so far.
03:56 bpmedley I also use zsh.  Hrmm.  Also Xcode has gcc and friends.
03:57 damaya What do you use for virtualization (VirtualBox?) and what do you find you need VMs for?
03:57 bpmedley I use VMware
03:58 bpmedley I like to use VMWare for CentOS 6 and Windows 7
03:58 Grinnz i only virtualize on windows atm but on linux i'd use KVM; dont know if that applies to os x
03:59 damaya OK. I have quite a few Linux boxes throughout the house that I can SSH into and do what I need.
03:59 damaya Well, looks like Mac isn't much different than any other environment.
03:59 damaya Thanks all
03:59 Grinnz yeah i actually use virtualization on windows to SSH into linux boxes easier XD
04:00 Grinnz not only that, but a lot of the time
04:00 bpmedley damaya: Yeah, it's Unix with Microsoft Office.. super sweet.. :)
04:00 damaya haha, no more open office :D
04:00 Grinnz not exactly what i'd count as a benefit :P
04:00 damaya haha, a vm to ssh :) It's been years since I've been in Windows, but how's Cygwin?
04:01 Grinnz but i dont have to work with other people's spreadsheets
04:01 damaya I though Cygwin gave you a terminal with all gnutils, ssh, etc
04:01 Grinnz cygwin is pretty nice too, i use it at work cause that computer is way too weak to virtualize
04:01 Grinnz i have VMs for other reasons on my desktop already though, so i just use those when i need to ssh
04:02 damaya I use KVM on my Linux box with Solaris 10 and 11 for testing things, but KVM support for Solaris can be painful at times.
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04:14 damaya bpmedley: What IRC client are you using?
04:15 bpmedley Textual 5
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04:25 jberger You'll want homebrew
04:26 jberger And you will curse it for not being apt
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04:36 sri dunno why y'all complaining about homebrew
04:37 sri if you like apt so much, just try fink
04:38 sri it's not good, but you can totally have apt http://www.finkproject.org/
04:39 sri (i've not actually tried it in at least a few years, but back then it was not good)
04:40 Adura But, did the creator of fink get turned down by Google?
04:40 jberger sri: I've just had homebrew break on me
04:41 jberger It's only real problem is that it is third party to the os and so has to pay some tricks
04:41 jberger *play
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05:52 meredith macports here, haven't had any trouble.  a few months ago was the first time i'd touched osx and i got rolling p quickly
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15:47 Craftsmanship I suppose I don't want to be serving static stuff via my morbo instance, do I?
15:51 Grinnz why not
15:51 Grinnz theres no particular reason to if you have something else that can, but theres no particular reason not to either
15:51 jberger Craftsmanship: you can, though if you offload it to nginx it might be more efficient
15:52 jberger But premature optimization and all that
15:52 Craftsmanship I'd need another IP to make that go though :S
15:52 Grinnz not if you're proxying from nginx
15:52 Grinnz if you're not though then yeah thats a lot of extra effort
15:53 Craftsmanship I didn't think nginx was comfortable wiht all this realtime web setuff
15:53 jberger Craftsmanship: yes out works just fine
15:53 jberger s/out/it/
15:53 Craftsmanship oh
15:54 Craftsmanship any chance i can steal your config?
15:54 jberger http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/Cookbook#Nginx
15:55 jberger That doesn't intercept the static files, but it isn't hard to find the config for that elsewhere
15:55 Craftsmanship and then i just hard-wire my /public paths into the config and point them at my git clone and i'm golden
15:55 jberger Yeah basically
15:57 Craftsmanship asking questions is much more fun when you don't have amazingly misconceived notions about the subject at hand.
16:02 sri guess everybody is happy now https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/829#issuecomment-131469927
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16:09 sri there's one more problem with tag helpers that comes up every now and then... xss escaping
16:09 sri but that's a lot harder to solve
16:12 pink_mist well you still don't have an example with using % param country => 'de' unless param 'country';
16:13 pink_mist could remove the second example since what it describes is basically done in subsequent examples too
16:33 sri param affects all form element helpers
16:33 sri just adding an example to one of them seems rather arbitrary
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16:37 pink_mist it's one that gets asked about a lot though
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17:11 Craftsmanship so, if I were go write a Commansd::generate:: thingy, can i put it in the namespace of my app, or do i put it in mojo::commnads?
17:11 Grinnz is it a general mojo command, or a command specific to your app?
17:12 Grinnz https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojolicious::Guides::Cookbook#Adding-commands-to-Mojolicious
17:13 Craftsmanship Well, i guess other people might want it too
17:13 Craftsmanship I wanna generate an nginx config
17:13 Craftsmanship with rules for my /public stuff
17:14 mst I would suggest that different apps will want to generate stuff differently
17:15 mst so adding a command to your app, and then extracting the general parts into a superclass that other people can subclass in their apps for similar purposes
17:15 mst would likely be the most awesome possible approach
17:15 Craftsmanship It's not far off render_epl ( { statics => glob ..., app => ...} )
17:16 mst for the moment, sure. I can see something like that getting steadily more powerful over time
17:16 mst hence the proposed architecture
17:17 mst you can always do it a simpler way for the moment and leave yourself a comment to come back and ask me again if it breaks :D
17:17 Craftsmanship # this is bullshit but should do the job for now
17:17 Craftsmanship I basically have that on a macro key
17:18 mst http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/your-design-sucks/ applies
17:18 mst http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/your-design-sucks/ *always* applies
17:19 mst (especially when the value of 'you' is 'me' :)
17:19 Craftsmanship developers ...
17:22 mst Craftsmanship: I dunno, you could apply all the same rules to systems architecture
17:24 Craftsmanship that guide only talks about Mojolocious::Commands... is there a MyApp::Commands too?
17:29 sri mst is back for 10 minutes and i see people already swearing
17:30 * sri pokes jberger
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17:32 mst Craftsmanship: you probably want to take note of the addition of 'G-rated' to the topic
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17:35 Craftsmanship that must be new ...
17:37 Adurah It's to keep Aussies away.
17:40 Craftsmanship where?
17:40 Adurah Exactly!
17:40 Craftsmanship touché
17:43 Craftsmanship hrm, I don't see a function like "get_all_data_section_names"
17:44 Craftsmanship and I'd like one to put in my usage messages
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17:46 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojo/Loader#data_section
17:46 Craftsmanship oh, i can get a hash
17:47 Craftsmanship nice.
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17:48 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v3bq6
17:48 good_news_everyon mojo/master ec6fc90 Sebastian Riedel: a few more comments
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17:49 Craftsmanship I like that robot
17:50 genio sri: I finally caught up on all of the Mr. Robot episodes and I think I'm just as confused as you were after the last one.
17:50 sri haha
17:52 genio How much drug use does it take to forget who you are completely like that?
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18:08 preaction about 7
18:10 genio seven drug uses, huh? heh :)
18:11 preaction no, 7 different drugs
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18:33 genio any seven or a specific set?
18:45 marcusr yes
18:54 genio https://youtu.be/K4JhruinbWc?t=110 amazing how well they could describe and demonstrate this without graphics
18:55 Craftsmanship This is somewhat trobulesome
18:55 Craftsmanship can I have my commands get an instance of the application?
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19:11 meredith sub run ($self) { my $app = $self->app; ... }
19:11 meredith :)
19:15 jberger So I guess I should watch this show then, eh?
19:16 meredith oh, reading the backlog a bit i'm not certain if you're talking about a ::Command or a ::Commands, but ::Commands has an app attribute too.
19:17 jberger Commands isa Command
19:17 meredith ^
19:18 jberger You level up on mojo once you realize that your app isn't just a web server
19:21 meredith also no experience points are rewarded for killing minion processes, if you think you're going to grind levels
19:25 jberger xp for writing a multi worker minion rc script before the -j flag was added
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19:26 Craftsmanship ->app... that seed almost too easy
19:27 mst Craftsmanship: and lo, doth one of my sayings come to mind
19:27 mst try and avoid imagining extra problems that don't exist - programming is hard enough when you only have to deal with the real ones.
19:29 shadowpaste "jberger" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "Pre -j minion rc script" (89 lines) at http://paste.scsys.co.uk/497153
19:31 Craftsmanship mst: i was confused by how the templates work again... i wasn't looking for problems
19:31 mst Craftsmanship: that was a comment on 'almost too easy'
19:31 Craftsmanship I know.
19:32 mst and our collective tendency to overcomplicate things when there's an easy way
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20:06 sri mst: ircops cannot be banned from channels?
20:07 sri "12 - #mojo: ban *!*matthewt@shadow.cat [by sri, 87489 secs ago]"
20:07 sri still there
20:08 mst oh, right, yeah, one of the patches makes it essentially not work. I assumed you'd've lifted it already since you said 24h, forgot to check if it was still there
20:08 sri that's troubling
20:08 mst since I'm not in here in my capacity as an oper, I respected the request made in the kick message
20:10 sri you returned 2 hours before the ban was up
20:10 mst sorry, must've miscounted :/
20:11 mst honestly, I'd forgotten that patch existed and when I do a '24h' ban it's usually 'until sometime the following afternoon when I remember'
20:11 mst I'll happily leave again and come back in no less than 2 hours if you'd like
20:12 sri i find this very troubling and need to talk with the rest of the core team about it
20:12 sri strictly speaking, you've circumvented a ban
20:12 mst by accident, and I've then just apologised for it and offered penance
20:14 mst and sufficiently accidentally that nobody realised for 3 hours, and also, I'm entirely confused as to what hybrid's doing with the ban list
20:14 mst I'd've expected it to show most recent at the bottom but mine's showing at the top
20:14 * mst hates software
20:15 mst explains why I couldn't see it though, at least
20:16 sri mst: if we decide to permanently ban you, would you respect that?
20:18 Adurah Could just go to a network that's not full of Perl users if you're concerned about Mountain, heh.
20:19 mst sri: if a majority of the core team believes that a permanent ban is an appropriate result for accidental early return after a tempban that was controversial even among the core team, I would respect the request to depart indefinitely, yes
20:19 sri mst: so it would be conditional?
20:20 mst sri: I presume by 'we' you mean 'a majority of the core team'
20:20 sri you would not respect requests for arbitrary reasons?
20:21 mst I would respect any request to depart indefinitely that came from a quorum of the relevant people; I would, however, reserve the right to call the reasons harsher things than 'arbitrary' elsewhere if I felt that they were such
20:24 sri while most matters of importance are decided by a majority vote, i do have final say
20:24 sri you would not respect that?
20:25 sri do we decide which people are "relavant" or do you?
20:25 sri by "we" i mean the project, however it may be organized
20:25 sri and i don't just mean mojolicious, any project that has a channel on this server
20:26 mst if you define 'the relevant people' to be you, and the required quorum to be one, you're welcome to do so, so long as you do so explicitly
20:27 sri explicitly?
20:29 mst as in: if you decide to do this by fiat against the wishes of your core team, that should be stated for the record alongside the reasoning for the ban
20:30 sri so, to reiterate, nobody who started a channel on this server can unconditionally ban you from it?
20:30 Craftsmanship jberger: so, is this minion thing for queue workers?
20:30 Adurah I'd say you could just put an AKICK on him, but... this channel isn't registered...
20:30 mst sri: that is exactly the opposite of what I just said.
20:31 sri mst: you said stuff needs to be explicitly stated in a way you like
20:31 sri so there are conditions that need to be met for you to respect it
20:32 mst I said that's how I'd expect it to be done.
20:32 stephan48 you would respect a ban evem without these criterias?
20:32 stephan48 even*
20:32 stephan48 s/respect/adhere to/
20:33 sri what i'm trying to find out here is to what degree we actually control the channel
20:33 mst I've already offered to leave and come back before this conversation even started
20:34 sri if abusive ircops can do whatever they like, remaining on this network makes no sense
20:34 mst you're looking for increasingly finer nitpicks to make in an attempt to back me into a corner to make me say something you can claim indicates that you don't control the channel and to paint me as abusive
20:34 mst I've done my best to be polite and principled about this
20:35 mst up to and including offering to sanction myself voluntarily for a genuine mistake which nobody, myself included, noticed for several hours
20:36 sri what i was hoping for was a simple "yes, i would accept a ban unconditionally"
20:37 Adurah But, what if another op would like him to return?
20:37 sri then the project has to handle that internally
20:37 sri ban list is ban list
20:38 sri just like for anyone else
20:40 Adurah Quickest solution would be running a Mojo-specific ircd, heck, I'd escape github myself with the sill CoC thing.
20:40 Adurah *silly
20:41 sri you really think this is the time for trolling?
20:41 mst the todogroup thing (a) isn't forcibly being applied to github (b) has been paused while they get their foot surgically removed from their tonsils
20:41 mst (c) really isn't relevant to the current conversation
20:41 Adurah Oi, I'm not trolling. It's a solution to this drama.
20:43 Adurah I think it's relevant, less centralized and no appearance of looking over my shoulder. Though, I'm not saying Mojo should, I'm saying I would.
20:52 sri mst: for the record, if i was in your position, i would have left immediately after noticing until the ban had actually been lifted
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20:52 sri to not put the channel ops into an awkward position, but that's just me
20:52 sri (if it really was accidental)
20:52 mst sri: for the record, I offered to do so immediately, but you were still talking to me so it seemed rude to me to leave while you were mid conversation and hadn't said 'yes' to my offer
20:52 sri no, you made us decide
20:53 sri "us" being whoever you consider "relevant"
20:54 sri marcusr, jberger, batman, tempire, Grinnz, crab: we need to talk
20:56 * sri goes for a run, so take your time to think about it
20:57 genio Does it need to go that far?  You've expressed an annoyance and he seems open to obeying your wishes in the channel.  Why not apply another ban for a time and let yourself cool while also giving him the chance to prove he'd be complicit?
20:58 stephan48 the ban is still there?
21:00 sri ban has never been lifted, it's just not respected
21:02 genio It seems as if it was an accident and simply saying, "can you please part until the ban has been lifted?" would resolve it until it happens again (unless this is a frequent thing).
21:03 mst I've offered, explicitly, twice, to leave and then come back when invited, out of respect, and got no answer except complaints for asking the question
21:03 mst and now I'm going AFK
21:03 mst &
21:04 sri the answer is YES, of course
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21:04 sri you make it sound like some grand guesture though
21:04 sri that worries me
21:05 sri which resulted in the questions that followed about how much control we actually have
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21:18 Craftsmanship http://dynax60.blogspot.nl/2010/12/freebsd-rc-file-for-mojolicious.html# does this look reasonable? should I be doing cpanm based instlals into my apps dir on bsd?
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21:52 flamey hi guys!
21:53 flamey is it possible to use Mojolicious::Plugin::Captcha with Lite app?
21:53 flamey there's no example, and I can't figure out (
22:00 meredith it looks like you just plugin like this:  https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojolicious::Lite#plugin  and it installs a couple helpers you use the same way in your actions.
22:03 flamey actually, I had some progress. I did this: http://pastie.org/10355463
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22:04 flamey and I not get what looks like raw JPEG data as text in the browser
22:04 flamey not sure what to do with it
22:07 meredith you should be able to omit the `use` line.  yeah, i believe you'll need to set a Content-Type header so the browser has a clue what to do with the output, guess it was left out of their example.
22:08 meredith should be  `$self->res->headers->content_type('image/jpeg');` iirc
22:10 flamey aha! thank you!
22:10 flamey it looks like an image now, with my dimentions
22:11 flamey though, it's not readable :) now I'll need to read more docs for captcha
22:11 meredith looking back at the example, i think they must have copied code from a catalyst captcha thing and not cleaned it up, maybe i can submit a fix
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22:18 meredith hey actually, this also needs a warning that the captcha they've implemented here is useless with default mojolicious sessions.  it stores the validation text in the session which is just a cookie the client can look at, unless you switch session stores.
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22:22 flamey heh :)
22:28 sri so, does anyone have any thoughts on tag helpers and escaping?
22:28 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Plugin/TagHelpers#tag
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23:48 mst aha: <@sri> the answer is YES, of course
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