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IRC log for #mojo, 2015-08-27

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Time Nick Message
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00:30 Grinnz nicomen, google virginia, you should find it pretty quick...
00:30 nicomen yeah found it ;)
00:34 jberger sri: yeah that's weird
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06:38 batman jberger: that's why i created Mad::Mapper, since i couldn't make mandel working with Mojo::Pg :(
06:39 batman jberger: but the idea is to "port" more functionality from mandel to mad-mapper... just haven't had any projects using mad-mapper in a while
06:41 batman sri: +1 on not following browsers :)
06:41 batman (ref :scope)
06:41 batman Zoffix: i don't hate you if you find bugs. reported bugs is a good thing!
06:41 batman :)
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06:52 bpmedley batman: Mojo::APNS is awesome
06:52 batman thanks :)
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11:51 memowe Hi guys, long time no see! :)
11:51 jberger memowe: o/
11:52 memowe \o/
11:53 stephan48 hi memowe
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11:59 tim Hi, is it possible to create a hash of template blocks, like this? http://pastebin.com/Y2TjY4tG
11:59 Repaster Repasted text from tim: http://fpaste.org/260057/14406767/
12:02 sri MOJO_TEMPLATE_DEBUG=1 will show you what it looks like in perl
12:02 sri it does seem like a bad idea though
12:02 sri if you want to reuse stuff, just turn it into helpers
12:03 sri or even partial templates
12:06 tim ok, but then I have to create a partial template for every field I want to format
12:10 sri if it's so many fields, that hash of blocks would be a mess
12:11 tim a helper for every field or many elsifs look messy too
12:12 sri did you just call tag helpers messy? Oo
12:13 * sri would not call proper abstraction messy
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12:16 tim I could call render_to_string from the helper...
12:18 sri you do realize that all tag helpers can be valled as $c->link_to(...) and the like?
12:18 sri s/v/c/
12:20 sri also http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/Cookbook#Adding-a-plugin-to-your-application
12:21 tim ok, but what if I must return complex HTML from the helper? Then I end up with ugly string concatenation
12:22 sri then you use a partial template
12:24 tim ok thanks, I will forget my idea with the hash :)
12:25 sri also http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/Rendering#Reusable-template-blocks
12:25 sri "Just be aware that both keywords are part of the surrounding tag and not actual Perl code..."
12:29 tim ok, I think I need to read the docs with more attention :)
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12:32 ZoffixWork Anyone want to download my giant app and help debug a problem with AssetPack that I can't reproduce in a test case app? :)
12:38 sri http://www.homerbackingintothings.com/static/images/homer.gif
12:39 ZoffixWork sri++
12:45 marcus the domain is the best part
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12:54 tim sri, I just noticed a missing space in the docs :P http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Plugin/TagHelpers#t
12:54 tim %=t div
12:57 jberger tim++
12:57 jberger fixed
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12:57 good_news_everyon [mojo] jberger pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vGfiE
12:57 good_news_everyon mojo/master 834be7c Joel Berger: fix typo in TagHelpers doc, tim++
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12:58 tim :)
12:58 sri oh, actually that was intentional
12:58 jberger ORLY?
12:58 sri yes, the idea was to make it look like it's part of the tag
12:58 jberger hunh
12:58 jberger I can revert
12:58 sri we also did that for i18n
12:59 sri back in the days
12:59 jberger though I had never thought of it that way myself
12:59 sri <%=l 'some phrase that will be automatically translated' %>
12:59 sri to make it look like custom tags
13:00 jberger personally, it doesn't look like that to me, it looks like you're missing a space
13:00 jberger but we can revert if that's what we should do
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13:01 sri the idea was inherited from rails actually
13:01 jberger maybe that's why I don't see it, I've never used rails
13:02 sri http://guides.rubyonrails.org/i18n.html#passing-variables-to-translations
13:05 sri i don't know how it should be, guess we need a vote
13:08 jberger my vote would be to have a space, but not contentiously, I'm curious what others think
13:08 pink_mist I agree there should be a space
13:09 pink_mist +1
13:10 ZoffixWork If anyone's feeling adventurous: Here's my app https://github.com/XTaTIK/XTaTIK  and here's the test case app: https://github.com/zoffixznet/debug  and here's how I'm starting my app: http://fpaste.scsys.co.uk/497647   when I edit 'included.scss' in the test case app, <p class="two"></p> does get the colour changed, because in main.scss I tell .two { background: $well-bg; }... Now, in my actual app, my /var/www/healthtohome/silo/p
13:10 ZoffixWork ublic/sass/site-variables.scss  is meant to be the included.scss from the test app. But when I edit it, <p class="well">s do change their background colour, but custom rule that uses $well-bg (defined here: http://bit.ly/1NJxmwD ) doesn't get its colour changed unless I delete /packed/ directory :S
13:10 ZoffixWork I just can't figure out what the difference between the testcase app and the real app is :/
13:11 ZoffixWork I +1 on having a space: my reasoning is I first leaned EP syntax, so now when I see %=t for the first time, I don't see it as an extension of EP's syntax, but as a t() and a missing space.
13:17 * batman is -0 on the space question
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13:32 memowe I like how Rails copied the EP syntax there. <3
13:32 memowe :P
13:33 ZoffixWork :)
13:34 Grinnz i've never used rails and i don't really use EP so it's hard to have an opinion on it :s
13:35 ZoffixWork Grinnz, what do you use instead of EP?
13:35 Grinnz TT, at work
13:35 sri ;p
13:36 Grinnz and i just realized that acronym is ambiguous, so template toolkit :P
13:36 sri EP was inspired by ERB, which was inspired by ASP
13:36 sri i don't know what ASP was inspired by though
13:36 ZoffixWork Having just one thing
13:36 Grinnz why, money, of course
13:36 sri <% ... %> might have an even longer history
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13:38 nicomen shtml perhaps?
13:38 nicomen SSI that is
13:38 sri btw. the original ERB.rb at the time Mojo::Template started was really really bad
13:38 nicomen hm, no, they use real comments
13:39 sri since then rails has switched to an implementation that looks very similar to Mojo::Template :)
13:39 memowe I knew it.
13:39 memowe (not really)
13:40 sri http://www.kuwata-lab.com/erubis/
13:41 sri the concept is very very efficient, never regretted creating Mojo::Template
13:42 sri just wish there was a better way to implement begin/end blocks
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13:58 jabberwok Somewhere in the tutorial, or in the Default Helpers docs, would it be helpful to point out that:: content() always returns a value (a Mojo::ByteStream object), which can be safely ignored. In a template, "% content" implies "set the content if not already set" whereas "%= content" means: print the content as defined elsewhere, or else default to the string in the argument.
14:01 buu sri: doesn't mason go back farther than asp and erb?
14:03 jabberwok https://github.com/autarch/HTML-Mason/commits/master?page=95   ... like it's 1999
14:03 buu That was a little while ago
14:04 ZoffixWork O. M. G. Found it! The issue was these 5 characters at the end of my @import -_- ".scss"
14:04 sri asp goes back to 1996
14:04 jabberwok asp is so old -- cleopatra had one.
14:04 buu wiki claims ror was 2005
14:04 ZoffixWork This was almost as painful as when I spent 10 hours debugging an IE CSS bug all because I've used an underscore in my local domain name :)
14:05 sri yea, rails was the same time as catalyst
14:05 memowe Wasn't it Columbus who stole the syntax from the native americans?
14:05 ZoffixWork :P
14:05 buu Goddamn I feel old
14:09 batman sorry for completely off topic question, but i was wondering if anyone could recommend http://www.pixelmator.com/mac/ ? (photoshop is not an option)
14:11 jabberwok buu: old? let's see... this is from when i was learning programming (punchcards fed into PDP-11/40)  https://veuwer.com/i/33ue
14:11 buu =]
14:12 sri batman: it's what i'm using
14:12 batman thanks!
14:12 * batman buys
14:13 sri and Sketch for vector stuff
14:13 batman ok
14:17 sri not tried the new Affinity apps yet
14:31 sri it's nice that there's good competition now though
14:32 sri next time new versions of pixelmator/sketch come out i'll have to compare with the affinity apps
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14:52 ZoffixWork batman, so I did nail that bug :} I've sent you a pull. I kinda feel icky testing for 4 variations of the same file, but if we just strip the extension, then we'd be open for cases like @import 'foo.scss.scss' (perhaps?). Anyway. Please review/improve on: https://github.com/jhthorsen/mojolicious-plugin-assetpack/pull/62
14:56 batman ZoffixWork: out of curiosity... who includes extensions when they import?
14:58 ZoffixWork batman, I did it out of habit of typing a full name. Don't know how common it is to include the extension; I'm new to sass
14:58 batman ok
15:00 ZoffixWork And since in plain css you do include the extension, my wild guess would be sass newcomers would tend to add the extension: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-cascade-3/#at-ruledef-import
15:01 batman right. never seen that done before :)
15:02 batman ZoffixWork: i've commented.
15:02 jabberwok a force of habit thing
15:02 batman ZoffixWork: updated the comment to use $_
15:03 batman ZoffixWork: and my code doesn't work at all :P
15:03 batman haha
15:03 ZoffixWork You've missed catpath() bit
15:04 batman yeah. fixed it now
15:04 batman could use grep {} instead... missing out on the warning, but that's not a big deal
15:06 batman nah. grep{} would involve too much stat()
15:06 ZoffixWork Yeah
15:07 ZoffixWork batman, I've updated to use your version
15:07 batman but what do you think about the order?
15:07 batman does it matter?
15:07 ZoffixWork Don't think so
15:08 batman ok. then i want it the other way around: ("$name.$ext", "_$name.$ext", $name, "_$name")
15:08 batman if you like to type, then you probably don't mind some extra stat() calls, hehe :)
15:08 ZoffixWork Let me test how sass resolves this
15:09 batman ZoffixWork++
15:09 ZoffixWork Ah. "content: "Error: It's not clear which file to import for '@import \"foo.scss\""
15:09 ZoffixWork So it doesn't matter what order, because sass will complain if there's an ambiguity
15:09 batman ok. then do ("$name.$ext", "_$name.$ext", $name, "_$name")
15:10 ZoffixWork batman, done
15:11 batman cool :)
15:12 ZoffixWork batman++
15:12 ZoffixWork batman, and sure, if you want me to join, I'll join :)
15:12 batman ZoffixWork: btw, do you perltidy the code?
15:14 batman ZoffixWork: i use App::git::ship to ship the code. you decide what you wanna use. just don't forget to update version numbers++
15:15 ZoffixWork batman, I don't perltidy no. I've used that program a few times though.
15:16 batman ZoffixWork: cd mojolicious-plugin-assetpack; cpanm App::githook_perltidy ; githook-perltidy install
15:18 preaction that sounds like a lot of trust to put in perltidy
15:19 batman works like a charm
15:19 batman what's the worst that can happen? perltidy can't mess up the historical changes :)
15:21 ZoffixWork Alright. Done.
15:21 preaction depends on where you put the hook i guess. i'm not sure i like the idea of something changing my code after i type "git commit" but before the changes are saved into the repo
15:21 batman ZoffixWork: then ship it! :)
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15:23 ZoffixWork batman, what's +0200 in time?
15:23 ZoffixWork I'm trying to figure out how to convert EST to that :)
15:24 ZoffixWork (updating changes file)
15:24 Grinnz_ EST or EDT?
15:24 ZoffixWork EDT
15:24 Grinnz_ EDT is -0400
15:24 Grinnz_ so add 6 hrs
15:24 ZoffixWork Grinnz_++
15:24 batman that's why i use git-ship :)
15:25 Grinnz_ .oO(that's why i use Dist::Zilla::Plugin::NextRelease)
15:26 ZoffixWork batman, oh, will it insert that automatically?
15:26 ZoffixWork I guess I should read its docs first :P
15:26 batman yeah. it changes the timestamp, version numbers in files, adds a tag, ...
15:26 batman there's almost no docs :(
15:27 sri find lib/ -name '*.pm' -print -exec perltidy -pro=.perltidyrc -nst -b -bext='/' {} \;
15:27 Grinnz_ you should find some poor sap to write some!
15:27 batman that's how i'm able to ship like two seconds after i merge a pull request :)
15:27 sri that one-liner works reasonably well for perltidying a project
15:27 batman oh snap! i'm late for quiz.
15:28 Grinnz_ quiz-quisition?
15:34 ZoffixWork Well.. PAUSE add message sent ok [200]
15:35 ZoffixWork I just wonder how it figured out what PAUSE credentials to use :/
15:36 Grinnz_ do you have a .pause or whatever that file is?
15:36 ZoffixWork Ah, yeah, I do
15:36 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-AssetPack-0.62 by ZOFFIX https://metacpan.org/release/ZOFFIX/Mojolicious-Plugin-AssetPack-0.62
15:36 ZoffixWork Don't recall creating it :)
15:36 Grinnz_ heheh
15:37 ZoffixWork batman++ # thanks for adding me to the project :)
15:37 ZoffixWork Time to have lunch :)
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15:43 batman ZoffixWork: Cool! I would like to be in the loop when you make changes, but if I'm not available you have to make the *tough* decision yourself ;)
15:47 batman http://twitter.com/taotetek/status/636261411598008321
15:48 batman I don't think anyone at work will understand that one...
15:57 marcus batman: <3 taotetek
15:57 marcus Brian is the actual best
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15:59 batman :)
16:00 sri hahaha, the next iphone will have a selfie flash
16:01 sri waiting for the official selfie sticks
16:02 jberger $900 for the stick right?
16:04 sri at the very least
16:04 marcus oh nose
16:04 Grinnz_ lol
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16:06 marcus I'm sure it will be worth it for the force touch.
16:09 bd batman: obligatory standup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbJAJEtNUX0
16:29 sri so that video was taken with the new iphone camera?
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16:35 diopow hi
16:38 diopow anyone over there?
16:38 mst welcome to IRC
16:38 diopow :(
16:38 mst what?
16:39 diopow i want to ask something
16:39 * mst is confused why :(
16:39 mst so please do go ahead and ask
16:39 diopow thought you were a bot
16:39 mst on IRC, normally, 'hi' just means 'I am here' and people don't always respond
16:39 mst the trick is to go straight to the actual question, which people are much more likely to reply to
16:40 diopow thanks
16:40 mst though bear in mind lots of people are at work, so if you don't get an immediate response give it half an hour at least before giving up
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16:41 diopow is it possible to have two separate sessions in the same client?
16:42 mst I'm not sure what exactly you mean?
16:43 genio diopow: Can you explain a bit more in detail what you're trying to accomplish?
16:45 diopow two non concurrent cookie sessions, i want a session to give the user global access to the site and another one to access only part of it. if i create the first, and destroy it to create a second one i get erratic behavior from the sessions and flash
16:45 diopow eventually they work, eventually the do not
16:45 diopow destroy i mean expires => 1
16:46 mst why does that need to be done as two sessions?
16:46 mst this seems like a strange way to implement this
16:47 jberger diopow: it is possible, I unfortunately have to do it
16:47 jberger but it is VERY manually intensive
16:47 jberger and I'm actively trying to work to the point where I don't have to do it
16:47 diopow i'm not sure if needs to be like this, i'm trying to port a CGI.pm code
16:48 mst ok, if the code's using CGI.pm just assume the entire design is wrong
16:48 mst don't port it, rewrite it
16:49 jberger diopow: remember that CGI scripts assume absolutely no state will be shared between successive requests
16:49 jberger and as such a direct porting might not be possible
16:50 diopow hmm i will try to keep one cookie,and just change the cookie path when access level needs to be changed..hope it should work?
16:51 sri jberger: why do you have to do it? Oo
16:51 jberger design of the site I inherited
16:51 sri ah, legacy
16:51 jberger its ... awful
16:51 jberger yes
16:51 jberger a legacy I'm trying desperately to shed
16:52 jberger the larger "app" is really a collection of small SPAs
16:52 jberger and you get the one for your user's defined role when you log in
16:52 jberger well of course at some point there were users who had multiple roles (and yes multiple usernames to do that)
16:53 jberger but hey it just works since persistent authentication was implemented by passing a header back and forth on each request
16:53 jberger so it "just worked"
16:53 lluad Ew.
16:53 mst diopow: why not put the username in the cookie
16:53 mst and allow/deny access based on whether the user is allowed to be in the inner site?
16:53 jberger so when I converted the whole site to using mojo+session
16:53 diopow i do it
16:54 mst so I don't see the need for anything more complicated?
16:54 jberger suddenly the users were like "how do I log into mulitple accounts in different tabs"
16:54 * jberger jaw drops
16:54 mst jberger: that's ... special
16:54 jberger I made it work, but yeah, ... ewww
16:54 diopow yea, i will have to rethink everything..my code is fromt he 90s
16:54 jberger diopow: do ANYTHING else but that if you can
16:55 diopow one more thing, why flash eventually breaks?
16:55 diopow it is a session too?
16:55 jberger flash is in the session yes
16:55 jberger note that you can't reset the session AND change the session in the same request
16:55 jberger one or the other won't work
16:57 diopow i think i get the concept now, session is persistent from the the app start and all i can do is change/add params to it along the app run?
16:57 jberger the one I often want is to be able to log a user out (by setting expires => 1) and set a flash message (like "goodbye") but you can't
16:57 jberger diopow: session is stored in the cookie
16:58 jberger signed client-side storage
16:58 mst diopow: generally, if you try to do anything other than that, you will make your life hard for no real gain.
16:58 jberger read: NOT ENCRYPTED, but safe from tampering
16:59 diopow i'm aware of the client part
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17:01 diopow it was a good talk, i think i got enough info here to rewrite everything
17:01 diopow will try now, thanks
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18:44 dave This is a strange bug. What is going on here? http://fpaste.org/260285/70100614/
18:44 dave if you define the env variable WTF, it breaks
18:45 stuart does it work with FTW?
18:46 Grinnz use Scalar::Util 'blessed', not ref, for object classes
18:47 Grinnz how does it break? is there an error message?
18:47 dave undefined subroutine &Foo::Subclass::Bar called at
18:49 Grinnz i believe what happened is you created the subroutine in the subclass to make that ref, so it's overriding the parent subroutine, however it's undefined
18:49 Grinnz so you should probably do whatever it is you're trying to do, in a different way :)
18:49 dave I got that last part :) just trying to understand what I did
18:50 dave and you are making sense...I didn't define Bar in the subclass
18:50 Grinnz note that SubClass::Bar will not use method resolution to find the parent class's version
18:51 Grinnz SubClass->Bar would
18:51 Grinnz but that's no longer a single symbol ;)
18:51 dave that fixes the issue tho
18:54 mst my $ref = $self->can('Bar');
18:55 dave really? that works to get the right code reference?
18:55 Grinnz yep
18:55 Grinnz that follows method resolution and all
18:56 Grinnz class->can and object->can are very very useful to avoid messing with symbols
18:56 dave that saves a tricky eval ... thanks very much :)
18:56 Grinnz you can even use it on modules that aren't classes
18:57 mst dave: also http://p3rl.org/curry is sometimes more useful
19:00 dave why do you call that curry?
19:00 mst because what it does is currying
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19:00 dave :) ok but using an east indian dish as a descriptive term must have had a rationale?
19:01 Grinnz dave, the word has other meanings ;)
19:01 meredith one of the scientists first involved in the concept had the surname Curry :)
19:01 mst dave: you've never heard of Haskell Curry?
19:01 dave no
19:02 meredith its the kind of restaurant i'd visit
19:02 Grinnz "There are three programming languages named after him, Haskell, Brooks and Curry" TIL
19:02 mst dave: enwp.org/Haskell_Curry
19:03 mst dave: welcome to part of your history :)
19:03 sri dave: language
19:03 dave ?
19:04 sri the wtf
19:04 dave that stands for "what the frick"
19:05 sri no, it's not, and i'm afraid this is a first strike
19:05 dave ok
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19:06 sri s/it's not/it doesn't/
19:06 * sri pokes jberger
19:06 * jberger reads back
19:07 mst it's pretty irrelevant now, you already drove the user off
19:09 jberger the argument that a common acronym is not used as the common acronym is spurious
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19:10 jberger if the user chooses to be driven off by a request to control their language, then unfortunately that's what happens
19:10 meredith "oops, i'll watch it" can't really be so hard to say
19:10 mst I think that particular one perhaps needs to be delivered as 'the wtf, because of the common expansion, no matter what you meant it to stand for'
19:10 jberger arguing that it doesn't mean what it obviously means is sidestepping
19:11 jberger I see no fault in sri's request as it
19:11 mst certainly, but one can deliver that point without being hostile about it
19:11 jberger it is
19:11 sri mst: what makes you believe i've driven him off?
19:11 mst and going straight to 'first strike' comes across as such, even though I can understand the desire to avoid rules lawyering
19:12 mst sri: his connection is normally relatively persistent and he /quit, so it seems a reasonable bet
19:12 mst I could, of course, be wrong about that
19:12 Grinnz actually he /parted
19:12 sri so, you're starting an argument based on a bet
19:12 mst and then /quit
19:13 sri stirring up trouble
19:13 jberger enough, there's no fault here
19:13 * mst did not come here for an argument, and steps away from the conversation
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19:59 ZoffixWork May I offer a friendly suggestion? Instead of offering offenders an abrupt, single-word "language," I think it would be more productive to say "Sorry, but we are trying to keep this a G-rated channel." If one tries to argue about their intended expansion of the acronyms, simply say "Sorry, but we always have to assume the most common meaning." And if anyone needs to be awarded a strike, say "We will have to award a strike for that
19:59 ZoffixWork offense." I think this form of tone informs the offender without directly referring to them, thus not making the warning feel like a personal stab. And using "we" frames the warning as comming from the entire channel and not just the person issuing the warning, so again, the offender has less impulse to view it as a personal attack. Just a suggestion... feel free to ignore me :)
20:00 sri english is not my native language
20:00 ZoffixWork That's certainly understandable.
20:01 jberger sri: that would be a softer approach
20:01 sri usually when i try to formulate something especially polite it tends to backfire and sound passive aggressive... or worse
20:02 jberger anyway, I'm not too fussed about this incident
20:03 jberger I'm sorry dave chose to leave, but I don't think anything untoward happened either
20:03 sri of course it would be better if native english speakers started watching the channel
20:03 ZoffixWork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlATOHGj9EY
20:03 ZoffixWork :D
20:03 jberger I do watch of course, but I can't 100% of the time
20:03 sri not like i have to be the one poking people
20:04 sri ZoffixWork: lol
20:05 sri it's not even exaggerated that much
20:05 ZoffixWork lol
20:07 mst sri: I suspect you're going to find that people expect WT* and F*S to be allowed under 'G-rated', so mentioning the common expansion rule at the point of pointing out the acronym isn't allowed will do the trick - zoffix' phrasing is at least as good as mine if you prefer it
20:08 mst jberger: I'm not sure I'm willing to count you as a native english speaker unless you prove you can spell words containing the letter 'u' :D
20:09 * jberger throws a spanner in mst's bonnet
20:09 mst a wrenching experience, indeed
20:09 ZoffixWork :D
20:09 sri G-rated includes "no profanity" in every definition
20:10 PopeFelix mst, it's you lot who are using the extra letters.  You don't say "kuhl-oor", do you? You say "kuhl-uh".
20:10 PopeFelix What's the U for?
20:10 PopeFelix nothing, that's what.
20:10 ZoffixWork PopeFelix, colour is for the flair :)
20:11 ZoffixWork s/colour/u/;
20:11 Grinnz_ ~what is the U for~
20:11 mst sri: I understand how you're choosing to interpret it, I'm merely observing that without any explicit mention thereof, people aren't liable to realise that interpretation is in force
20:12 sri which is why i tell people to watch their language
20:12 sri if there's questions about it, they are free to ask
20:13 sri the first strike was for lawyering about the meaning of the abbreviation
20:13 sri i will not hand out a strike for accidental use of profanity
20:14 sri just warnings
20:15 sri if you intentionally ignore them, start a fight, or lawyering... that's a strike
20:16 mst I would argue that people expect WT* and F*S to be expanded as G-rated in G-rated environments, so I wouldn't consider that lawyering the first time you hear it; assuming good faith is a good thing with this sort of thing
20:16 spicyjack maybe there needs to be a support guide, ala the contributing guide, that has the rules for discussions in #mojo
20:17 spicyjack sri: I agree with mst, most native english speakers don't consider the abbreviations inappropriate
20:17 PopeFelix Why is there such a concern about language to begin with?
20:17 spicyjack sri: because you can change what the individual letters mean, to suit your tastes/preferences
20:17 jberger spicyjack: but in your mind they would expand to the normal usage, no?
20:17 sri how is it not inappropriate when you spell it out?
20:18 spicyjack jberger: my personal preferences is to use the commonly accepted expansions, yes
20:18 spicyjack jberger: but again, personal preference
20:18 jberger those people who are off-put by the common expansions will certainly see them as such
20:18 jberger and we are trying to optimize for inclusiveness
20:19 mst sri: so long as somebody -doesn't- spell it out, it isn't considered to be the full term and therefore isn't considered to be inappropriate
20:19 pink_mist wait, 'F*S'? I don't think I know an inappropriate expansion for that one .. could someone pm me what that would mean that's not G-rated?
20:19 jberger For Pete's Sake
20:20 spicyjack "For FSM's Sake"
20:20 Grinnz_ what did Pete do for us anyway
20:20 spicyjack if you're a pastafarian
20:20 * pink_mist incorrectly assumed the * was hiding a 'G' :>
20:21 Grinnz_ i've never seen that abbreviated o_0
20:22 jberger I'm no longer a pastafarian: praise be to bacon: http://unitedchurchofbacon.org/
20:23 pink_mist you know, if you had a carbonara you could combine the two religions :P
20:23 Grinnz_ mmmm carbonara
20:24 jberger there is actually a difference, odd as it may seem
20:24 jberger but you probably don't want to get into a religious discussion with me (at least not over IRC and without beer handy)
20:24 pink_mist Grinnz_: I often see people say 'fgs' (I'm going to assume that one is okay to uncensor..)
20:25 Grinnz_ i generally don't wnat to get into a religious discussion with anyone
20:25 mst I have no comment to make on religion that is permissible to make in this channel.
20:26 pink_mist well, maybe we can get back ontopic then ...
20:27 jberger WHY NOT ZOIDBERG? (V) (;,,;) (V)
20:28 pink_mist I'll take that as a no :P
20:28 jberger by definition, Futurama is on topic, of course
20:30 sri just to be absolutely clear, abbreviations are not ok, most common interpretations apply
20:31 sri and it couldn't be any other way, because some folks would abuse the exception if there was one
20:32 Grinnz_ that's clear, it's just a question of the manner in which to make that clear to first offenders, i think referencing the "common meaning" or "common expansion" is a good idea
20:35 pink_mist if purl ever came back, she'd probably get kicked pronto :>
20:35 mst especially since if he doesn't came back, dave will be the second person we've lost to this particular failure mode
20:35 mst must balance 'not losing people due to lack of niceness' with 'not losing people due to problems fixing the lack of niceness'
20:35 mst which is always painful
20:36 mst (I've been a chanop too long too many places to try and claim it isn't painful, and hard work, and argh ;)
20:36 sri no, that's not how it works
20:37 sri we're trying to change the tone here, and there will be collateral damage
20:38 mst yes, and by 'balance' I mean 'try and minimise the collateral damage, while still accepting that some is inevitable'
20:43 sri i do not like your suggestion of wrongdoing on my part
20:44 sri reading through everything you said again, it does not appear to be very constructive
20:45 ether joined #mojo
20:45 berov joined #mojo
20:45 ether left #mojo
20:45 mishanti1 My $.02: just like it is hard for a non-native english speaker to formulate a well-meaning rebuke in english, it is difficult for a non-native speaker to infer meaning behind, and how crude an abbreviation is.
20:45 sri mishanti1: so when it is pointed out to you, you react with an "oops" and/or "sorry", and it's all good
20:46 mst then I'd suggest instead you just take Zoffix' comments and ignore mine, since he expressed pretty much the same points in a different way
20:46 mst I also concur with spicyjack that a policy document would be really helpful
20:47 mishanti1 sri: That is _extremely_ dependent on culture. Where I come from it is natural to first try to explain ones own position / assumtions, not immediately bow to the other party.
20:48 sri mishanti1: what culture is that?
20:48 mishanti1 And yes, German and Norwegian culture (which I belong to) are absurdly different.
20:49 mishanti1 Despite the relative close proximity.
20:49 mishanti1 s/relativ/relatively/
20:51 mishanti1 A couple of years back the company I worked with had a branch starting up in Germany and we had LOADS of problems because we (as weegies) had not done a good enough job on preparing for all the cultural differences.
20:51 sri any policy document will only be more strict and cause much more lawyering
20:51 sri do you really want an official project code of conduct like http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/ ?
20:52 mst we're already under the irc.perl.org code of conduct
20:52 meredith It's honestly quite natural among English-speaking Americans here as well. When I mention the whole "sorry, i'll fix it" thing, I say it expecting it to be a cultural change in itself.
20:52 sri mst: and obviously it doesn't work to keep people like you at bay
20:53 PopeFelix Perhaps it would be best to drop the matter.
20:54 sri dropping the matter means disbanding this channel
20:54 sri at least as an official channel
20:54 PopeFelix Excuse me. I don't think I made myself clear.
20:55 PopeFelix I suggest that we cease discussion of this topic for the present.
20:55 mishanti1 +1
20:55 PopeFelix As it does not appear to be going anywhere useful.
20:55 jberger we the core members have made our point clear
20:55 PopeFelix Let me see if I understand the question at hand.
20:56 mishanti1 jberger: Could that perhaps be put into writing (organized etc), perhaps on the wiki?
20:56 PopeFelix The question is "Should 'WTF', 'FFS', and similar acronyms that have common vulgar expansions be met with language warnings?"
20:56 jberger I'll think about something, I guess the wiki is an ok place to put some guidelines
20:57 mishanti1 jberger: If it is already there then I must have missed it. In any case: it would be helpful having it available.
20:57 jberger but I have to leave for Chicago.pm soon
20:57 mishanti1 Enjoy :)
20:57 sri PopeFelix: no, that's not a question
20:57 jberger btw, if anyone is in the Chicago area, its http://www.meetup.com/ChicagoPM/events/224393894/
20:57 PopeFelix I.E. If someone came into the channel and used one of those acronyms, they would be warned that they were using inappropriate language.
20:57 PopeFelix sri, I'm sorry. What is the question, then?
20:58 sri i'm not entirely sure, but i think it was how to tell people
20:58 jberger PopeFelix: it is the stated opinion that those are expanded to the common meaning, and since those contain language, they will be warned
20:59 mishanti1 As a side-note to the "WT*"-thing; a couple of my friends have religious families, spend most of their time in that "sphere" and only way into adult life learned that RT*M and WT* actually contained profanity.
20:59 mishanti1 So there is that. They are a minority, but they do exist.
20:59 PopeFelix jberger, thank you for clarifying.
21:00 sri mishanti1: what are you arguing for?
21:00 jberger I think that was just an amusing anecdote
21:00 * jberger considers banning himself
21:01 mishanti1 jberger: exactly :)
21:01 mishanti1 sri: ^
21:01 mst the discussion was about how to tell people to fix their language without being unduly aggressive, since the goal is to have a pleasant and friendly channel and that doesn't work if it has "except for the ops" on the end
21:01 mst then we diverted because oh gods different versions of english and cultures
21:01 mishanti1 Sorry :)
21:01 mst and I'm not sure what the conversation was about after that, exactly, and I'm not sure there wasn't three of them by the end ;)
21:01 sri so, i was rude?
21:02 mishanti1 sri: Eye of the beholder I would say. I know where you come from and did not take it as rude. But I can see that others might feel "challenged" in a way.
21:03 sri http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/2015-08-27#i_11127368
21:03 sri there were almost no words exchanged
21:04 sri for all we know, he went for lunch
21:04 mishanti1 Indeed, we have no idea.
21:05 ZoffixMobile joined #mojo
21:05 mishanti1 But the discussion as I have understood it is more one of "how do we mash some words together so that they convey the obvisouly good intent of keeping the channel g-rated while reducing chances of misinterpretation".
21:06 sri btw. there's already something in the rules about this https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blame/master/lib/Mojolicious/Guides/Contributing.pod#L172
21:06 ZoffixMobile sri, no, no, no. You weren't rude, you were abrupt.
21:06 pink_mist I think it's quite clear that he left because of the strike, but I also agree with jberger that such things are inevitable ...
21:06 pink_mist and I also don't think sri was overly harsh there
21:06 mishanti1 Less words is usually more of a problem than a surplus of words, as with the former you are often left to infer meaning and that is usually done by injecting own culture. If you don't know the sender.
21:07 ZoffixMobile sri, by which I mean from the point of view of dave, likely the warning came up too sudden and when he attempted--however awkwardly--to justify himself  someome negated his attempt
21:07 jberger he certainly left (I have other knowledge of the situation), though I don't know if he might return
21:07 pink_mist http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/2015-08-27#i_11127436 this was rather a bit more argumentative than you should have aimed for though, sri ... in my humble opinion
21:08 ZoffixMobile I think if we position ourselves not to chastice people but to try and improve the channel, people would less likely to feel hurt when we point out to them that they violated the rules.
21:08 jberger anyway, I'm out, lets keep it calm for a bit ok? :-P
21:08 ZoffixMobile I also agree with sri that making a special document won't solve anything.
21:08 mishanti1 I wonder what it might feel like to have humble opinions. Perhaps one day I'll get one too. :)
21:10 * ZoffixMobile goes back to enjoying solitude in the park :)
21:10 * Grinnz_ is still trying to write tests... tests are hard
21:13 PopeFelix Grinnz_, tests are hard.  Tests are harder when you still have no blasted idea of how you want a thing to work.
21:14 shadowpaste "mst" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "t/00load_all.t" (11 lines) at http://paste.scsys.co.uk/497670
21:14 mst PopeFelix: ^^ that's what I always add as my first test
21:14 PopeFelix mst, that's a good one.  Doesn't help me with my problem, though. :)
21:15 Grinnz_ that's a bit cuter than my File::Find version
21:15 meshl joined #mojo
21:20 genio mst: can Test::More's require_ok() be used instead of having to eval { require $name; 1 } ?
21:21 mst genio: require_ok takes a module name, I've already got a filename, why overcomplicate it?
21:21 mst ah, apparently it would guess I gave it a filename
21:21 mst but ... meh
21:22 Grinnz_ for some reason i was thinking require_ok uses "use" but i just checked and it uses "require" ... i must be thinking of something else
21:22 Grinnz_ oh yeah, Test::Requires
21:22 mst right, which is compleatly different
21:22 pink_mist use_ok()?
21:22 mst use_ok() is the devil
21:23 PopeFelix yes, pink_mist , I's fine.
21:23 PopeFelix ;)
21:23 mst because tests almost never bail out after it, they just crash messily
21:23 Grinnz_ hah
21:23 pink_mist PopeFelix: hah :P
21:23 pink_mist PopeFelix++
21:24 PopeFelix :F
21:24 PopeFelix er, :D
21:27 didge joined #mojo
21:27 didge Hello.  I'm a micro-small business owner from Orillia, named Didge.
21:27 didge I would like to deploy my Mojolicious fiddle to Amazon AWS using EC2 and Fedora 22.
21:29 didge I have an EC2 AWI for Perl::Catalyst using Fedora 22.
21:30 meshl joined #mojo
21:32 * didge ponders : https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=44ACA20F4BA4F885!393&amp;authkey=!ADr9qPCkYestbgA&amp;ithint=file%2cpdf
21:48 sri lol... "one effective way that we get high performance out of node.js is to avoid doing computation in node.js" http://www.jut.io/blog/2015/pushing-node-js-performance-limits
21:54 pink_mist 0_o can that really be considered getting high performance out of node.js? 0_o lol
21:55 bpmedley didge: Did you get your question answered?
21:56 pink_mist question..?
21:56 mst pink_mist: what it's talking about is pushing things into the queries sent to the backends rather than iterating in software
21:57 mst pink_mist: what they means is 'doing a for loop over SELECT * with no where clause is terrible even if SELECT * is some random NoSQL variant instead'
21:57 bpmedley Perhaps I should have read the ondrive link first.  It's a little jumbled.
21:57 mst though "Furthermore, both Elasticsearch and Cassandra are written in Java, so they can harness as many CPUs as are available when it needs to perform on big sets of data."
21:57 mst ... lol
21:57 mishanti1 .. wha..?
21:58 Grinnz_ yes, because easy threading is multi
21:58 mishanti1 webscale!
21:58 mst apparently they never realised you can prefork node?
22:01 mst ... oh lol, and they folded a group by into an ES query except ES can't do group by and limit and that broke everything
22:01 mst gotta love nosql datastores' consistent and elegant feature sets
22:31 didge bpmedley, Well, I don't PM.
22:31 didge okay: I figure nginx into fastcgi should be fine.
22:32 * didge wheels
22:43 didge Is a .psgi file created when I run script/myapp psgi ?
22:43 didge If so, where is it located?
22:55 Grinnz_ no, Mojolicious applications have a built-in Mojo::Server::PSGI that they use when run that way
22:56 Grinnz_ https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojolicious::Guides::Cookbook#PSGI-Plack
22:57 Grinnz_ (that whole section has a lot of ideas for deployment)
22:57 didge Great.  Thanks.
22:58 didge Grinnz: I need the reverse proxy, to the best of my knowledge.
22:58 didge Grinnz: I see it in the doc.  I appreciate your guidance.
22:58 Grinnz_ reverse proxy is perhaps the most common deployment method
22:59 Grinnz_ As long as you have the ability to configure apache/nginx, it is usually the best idea
23:00 Grinnz_ going through PSGI, fastCGI, or CGI can mean you'll be unable to use some features of mojolicious, but when going through reverse proxy the only thing that may be iffy is websockets
23:00 didge Grinnz: My nginx comes w/ Google Page Speed.
23:00 Grinnz_ nginx of course forwards websockets fine, i believe that page mentions how to set that up
23:01 didge Grinnz: I'm installing Mojolicious w/ CPAN Minus right now.
23:10 didge Okay.  I'm checking the assets pipeline now.
23:10 ajr_ joined #mojo
23:11 didge Okay.  Onto D.N.S..
23:16 didge Grinnz: thanks
23:16 * didge ponders http://gsc-orillia.org

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