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IRC log for #mojo, 2015-11-19

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Time Nick Message
00:01 Grinnz_ i'm not sure if that article was saying they'd be making a perl 6 book, just that someone would
00:05 ZoffixMobile But that's entirely my--perhaps overly optimistic--point. That the two communities  piggyback on each other's successes than to maintain this infighting. Promoting P5? Try to squeeze P6 stuff in. Promoting P6? Squeeze in P5. I can argue why one is better than the other for both languages. I dunno how sane this point seems to those who know just one Perl.
00:05 ZoffixMobile And in this context. The name issue fits in, even if awkwardly.
00:06 Grinnz_ the problem is how do you promote perl 6 in the context of perl 5 without having to take 2 paragraphs to explain why perl 6 isn't just the newer version
00:07 Grinnz_ nobody wants to buy old versions of stuff
00:08 ZoffixMobile True.
00:09 ZoffixMobile This is pretty conflicting in me. I can both see why the name change is highly unlikely and won't solve anything and at the same why the name is a serious issue.
00:10 Grinnz_ highly unlikely maybe, but it will solve many things
00:10 Grinnz_ *would* i should say
00:11 ZoffixMobile To be fair, there is **no Perl 6**. It's just a spec. What we do have is called Rakudo.
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00:11 Grinnz_ but they aren't calling them "rakudo programs"
00:11 Grinnz_ or "programming in rakudo"
00:11 ZoffixMobile Yeah.
00:12 ZoffixMobile But at least that's a starting point. /me will try to refer to all P6 stuff as "Rakudo stuff" to see how that plays out
00:13 ZoffixMobile Rakudo means "the way of the camel" btw :)
00:13 Grinnz_ neat
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00:54 sri Zoffix: i just don't see it happening, the tension between the communities will only intensify
00:55 sri once perl6 goes stable, there will be an influx of early adopters, people that jumped on ruby and node.js when it was hip, those people despise perl5
00:56 sri i'm sure you've already seen it in #perl6
00:57 sri dismissive comments about perl5, a snarky remark every now and then
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00:59 mattp Zoffix: you dont call python or ruby scripts by their specific interpreters either
01:02 Zoffix mattp, I may be too drunk to understand what you mean by that :)
01:02 Zoffix sri, I've not seen that TBH, but this comment totally blew my mind: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-11-18#i_11562890
01:02 Zoffix I really did not realize that some of P6 folks might not be aware that P5 is still alive and kickin' and has new features being implemented.
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01:04 mattp Zoffix: haha. I just mean what is the equivalent of rakudo for ruby: mri, jruby, rubinus, iron ruby
01:04 mattp its all just ruby. why would p6 be any different
01:05 Zoffix Oh, I was not aware ruby had many implementation.
01:06 Zoffix Too bad. And on a side note, I do feel a want to advertise P6 stuff as "Perl 6 stuff" simply because of name recognition.. "Rakudo?" "Wtf is Rakudo?"
01:06 Zoffix It's certainly a very difficult issues between the two languages :/
01:08 Zoffix And I think it's complicated that it affects P5 disproportionally more than P6.
01:09 Zoffix s/complicated\K/ more by the fact that/;
01:09 mattp Zoffix: calling something perl 6 affects perl 5?
01:09 Grinnz Zoffix, agreed on all of that
01:10 Grinnz mattp, because people naturally assume that perl 6 is the newest version of perl, so there's no reason to use perl 5
01:10 Grinnz so just by exposure of that name, perl 5 is affected
01:10 Zoffix mattp, that's a given.... but also hard to step away from calling it something else. Especially if your name is Larry Wall who designed p5 :P
01:11 mattp eh, p5 is what it is at this point imo
01:11 mattp I honestly dont see that changing radically for better OR worse in the next 5 years
01:12 Grinnz hard to say, but the name issue does not help
01:15 sri you're still assuming that perl6 will succeed
01:16 Grinnz also hard to say
01:17 * Grinnz checks if the crystal ball shop has restocked yet
01:17 sri it has no niche
01:17 sri as an alternative to ruby, python or even perl5 it's underwhelming
01:18 mattp sri: underwhelming in what sense
01:19 sri mattp: why would you choose it over the alternatives?
01:19 mattp you.. need to write a grammar?
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01:20 Zoffix I'm still a P6 noob, but... having stuff available without learning what Module X I need to include?
01:20 Zoffix min/max is what I recently experienced.
01:20 Zoffix There's also concurrency stuff.
01:20 sri so, you both like the aesthetics of the language, but you're not choosing for technical reasons
01:20 Zoffix I still haven't learned Perl 5's Moose, which I believe P6 implements natively.
01:21 Grinnz the threading and grammar support are what i'd consider benefits over perl 5, but whether those are good enough reasons, or whether they're benefits over other alternatives, i can't say
01:21 sri aesthetics is tough to sell if your competition doesn't have obvious flaws
01:21 mattp Zoffix: a mop and moose are not one in the same
01:21 Zoffix For technical reasons, P6 has too poor of adoption and speed.
01:21 sri i'm mainly considering ruby and python as alternatives here
01:21 Zoffix Not to mention there is no stable release yet.
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01:22 Zoffix I hate python "whitespace block" things, so I stop at there. Haven't tried ruby yet.
01:22 preaction python 2 is the biggest threat to python 3 for the same reason: few compelling advantages
01:22 sri i shouldn't have included perl5 in the list, we are all too invested there
01:22 Grinnz that's not a problem for python, because python 3 is maintained by the same people
01:22 Zoffix Yeah
01:22 sri but compare perl6 to ruby and python
01:22 Zoffix I've not much experience with either.
01:23 * Zoffix plugs the "handing uc on unicode stuff" in the mill
01:23 sri let me blow your mind, jruby is crazy fast and has kickass concurrency/parallelism
01:24 Zoffix Cool :)
01:24 sri actually, it even has a prettier website than ruby itself ;p http://jruby.org/
01:24 mattp sri: what other new language has come out the gate in the past few years
01:25 mattp just elixir right? (of langs that have achieved some modicum of success)
01:25 sri Elixir, Go, D, Rust
01:25 Grinnz rust and golang
01:25 Grinnz all i've heard about D is that it did really good on that weird benchmark thing
01:26 sri i wouldn't call Elixir a success yet btw.
01:26 sri the community us super small
01:26 sri if anything, Go is the most successful yet
01:26 sri this millenium :)
01:27 Zoffix What draws me to P6 might blow your mind tho: lack of implemented stuff and the community :) I can feel like I matter by implementing stuff that's been done in other languages for ages and the community is hugtastic to make me feel like I matter. I think points like these always fall on the wayside in language wars, but most of the languages in question are Turing-complete so you can do X in any language. I feel the majority of people who
01:27 Zoffix use the language matter more than the technical specs of a language.
01:28 mattp Zoffix: thats a pretty crappy reason to desire a language, or think it will succeed lol
01:28 sri Zoffix: early adopter hype
01:28 Zoffix mattp, oh, I don't think P6 will succeed based on that. I have no opinion on the matter
01:29 sri what Go had going for it was covering one niche very very well
01:29 Zoffix sri, what niche is that?
01:30 sri infrastructure software
01:31 sri stuff like docker and etcd
01:31 Grinnz people see performance and the cloud and they see dollar signs
01:33 mattp maybe I'm crazy, but I still think a p5 reimplementation on the jvm like that thing stevan little tried to do was the best way to success
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01:34 sri not to dismiss Swift of course, but i think we're talking open source languages
01:34 sri mattp: cpan is too invested in xs
01:34 Zoffix mattp, but is it because you're used to P5? :)
01:34 preaction p5 on the jvm has almost happened a few times, and in theory that's always been what B:: was about
01:35 sri i've been crying for decent FFI in core perl forever, that would be the first step towards more implementations of perl, and it would take quite some time
01:35 mattp sri: as of today, but if the real thing came to life, I think efforts to convert would happen fairly smoothly
01:36 mattp kind of like how moo slowly burned its way through moose'd cpan dists everywhere
01:36 Zoffix mattp, my recent implementation of https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Color was a fucking disaster if I compare it to how I do stuff in P5... No types. Flattened lists.... But at the same time you can cry about P5 missing custom Unicode operators and not having .? stuff
01:37 Zoffix Perl 5 really needs .? stuff copied... I think I heard someone dismiss the idea, but it's really useful for fluent interfaces. (return undef if method does not exist)
01:38 mattp what does that do in p6
01:38 Zoffix return Nil
01:38 preaction it's: ( $obj->can( 'meth' ) ? $obj->meth( @args ) : undef )
01:38 preaction someone even had "dots" as a pragma a couple years back...
01:38 mattp ah
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01:38 Zoffix preaction, but that's waaaay to verbose :)
01:39 preaction it is, i agree
01:39 Zoffix :D
01:39 mattp Safe::Isa, problem solved ;)
01:39 preaction and it'd make Safe::Isa obsolete
01:39 sri is it really equivalent to ...->can...?
01:39 sri not just a type check for Nil?
01:40 preaction oh, maybe i'm thinking of $obj.meth?()
01:41 sri my preference for a perl5 version would always be a defined check
01:42 sri $foo?->bar?->baz and if ->bar or ->baz return undef, stop the chain and return undef
01:42 Zoffix If a method returns undef return it instead of calling following methods? Yeah, that certainly would be the best way to implement it
01:42 sri umm, or if $foo is undef
01:43 sri undef all the things basically
01:43 Zoffix :)
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02:18 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v4X1t
02:18 good_news_everyon mojo/master 80e83f0 Sebastian Riedel: we now require a newer IO::Socket::IP with Perl 5.20.0
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07:10 sri i guess this is aiming at replacing websockets https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-webpush-protocol-01
07:11 sri there is an entire working group dedicated to it :o
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07:48 crab websockets need replacing?
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08:04 ashimema I was about to ask the same
08:10 buu It's the javascript way
08:10 buu REPLACE EVERYTHING
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08:25 cpan_mojo Swagger2-0.63 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Swagger2-0.63
08:26 cpan_mojo App-docsisious-0.05 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/App-docsisious-0.05
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08:29 cpan_mojo App-docsisious-0.06 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/App-docsisious-0.06
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08:48 crab what does "docsisious" mean?
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08:53 batman it's a dumb combination between "docsis" and "mojolicious"
08:54 batman docsis = data over cable service interface specification
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09:03 crab i see
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09:23 batman i feel i can say "dumb" since it's mine :)
09:40 nicomen Darth Docsisious, coming this xmas ;)
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09:49 batman :)
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10:24 kes sri: Hi.
10:25 crab hi kes.
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10:26 kes Hi, crab. Will sri today here?
10:28 crab i don't know.
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11:18 kes hm... when I use Plack::Middleware::Debug with mojolicious the 'mojoscroll' class is added to debug panel menu items. It brokes menu ((
11:20 kes the pattern $('a[href^="#"]').addClass('mojoscroll') at menubar.html.ep:130 should be changed to match only mojo links
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11:29 Zoffix kes, that likely will be problematic.
11:29 Zoffix kes, that stuff is used by pod renderer IIRC.
11:30 kes maybe do not hide onclick events that already assigned for those links
11:30 kes line 131: $('.mojoscroll').click(function (e) {
11:35 Zoffix kes, what do you mean by "hide"?
11:36 kes replace
11:36 Zoffix kes, it isn't
11:36 * Zoffix spots a way to save 1 line of code there
11:37 Zoffix sri, if you're feeling adventurous, these two lines can be merged: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/lib/Mojolicious/resources/templates/mojo/menubar.html.ep#L130-L131
11:37 Zoffix sri,  $('a[href^="#"]').addClass('mojoscroll').click(function (e) {
11:38 kes I think the 'stopPropagation' does that...
11:38 kes line 134
11:38 Zoffix kes, but if you're able to assign your own events, you can just remove that one
11:39 Zoffix kes, .off('click')
11:41 Zoffix sri, same as here: can be merged into one: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/lib/Mojolicious/resources/templates/mojo/menubar.html.ep#L107-L108
11:43 Zoffix oh, but then it'll be more than 80 chars :(
11:43 Zoffix this is a thing tho :D http://fpaste.scsys.co.uk/501657
11:48 Zoffix kes, or re-assign your own version of it... .on('click.kes', function(){ ...
11:51 kes That is not my version. That is Plack::Midleware::Debug::Base
11:51 Zoffix ah
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12:01 kes seems that is the debug panel problem. It does not work if I add any class, 'asdf' for example
12:03 kes but it was surprise to see mojoscroll class here too
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15:42 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v4y9G
15:42 good_news_everyon mojo/master 839a9fe Sebastian Riedel: no need to select elements twice
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15:42 sri Zoffix: adventurous? more like efficient!
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16:12 jberger perl -Mojo -MPerldoc::Server -E 'plugin MountPSGI => { "/" => Perldoc::Server->new->psgi_app }; app->start' daemon
16:13 jberger if the perldoc plugin isn't quite enough ;-P
16:32 kes sri: hi.
16:34 kes sri: I have complete documentation for the template inheritance feature that allow to pass arguments: https://github.com/kraih/mojo/compare/master...KES777:improved_template_inheritance?expand=1
16:35 kes is it clear? if I need to complete something else. please tell.
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17:10 sri kes: the style doesn't really fit, but it should be enough for discussing the feature
17:11 kes ok. I am glad to hear that
17:11 kes what next?
17:11 kes I need to do
17:11 sri http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/Contributing#CONTRIBUTING-CODE
17:13 kes you say I have banned on github...
17:13 sri i've unblocked you on github again, so please open as few issues as possible from now on
17:13 kes I have not try
17:13 kes ok. Thank you
17:14 kes I will keep myself in hands
17:16 kes sri: I have done code profiling. where I can post profiling results before and after change?
17:16 kes s/I can post/may I post/
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17:17 jberger kes: gist or pastie probably
17:17 kes ok
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17:30 kes which branch to use to make pull request to?
17:33 kes 2. Can you point me how to use .perltidyrc?
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18:09 sri kes: it is customary to squash commits before sending a pull request
18:10 kes sorry, do not understand (
18:12 batman kes: http://nathanleclaire.com/blog/2014/09/14/dont-be-scared-of-git-rebase/
18:12 kes thank you. I will read it
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18:17 * sri voted https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/875#issuecomment-158143909
18:17 kes I will squash next time =)
18:18 batman kes: you can squash and force push to a PR
18:20 sri in case it's unclear, the exception handling problem i'm referring to is the inability to show context information on debug.html.ep, since we only have the code for the current template
18:20 kes I have not do squash before... afraid I will broke something... so next time.
18:22 batman sri: i can't vote. i don't use these features
18:23 batman i only do basic template stuff, like plain "content" and % my $block = sub {}
18:24 batman i have to vote i would vote -1, since i think the code looks very complex.
18:24 batman but that's the only think i can say about it :/
18:24 kes I is not explicit. The code above just postpone call to _block, and add @args to the call
18:25 kes s/I is/It is/
18:29 cpan_mojo App-docsisious-0.07 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/App-docsisious-0.07
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18:30 sri thinking some more about it, i guess the whole concept is flawed
18:31 sri it's just incompatible with how templates work
18:35 kes I my branch I have merge the upstream/master HEAD. May I complete squash in this case too?
18:35 kes s/I my/In my/
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18:38 cpan_mojo Mojo-IOLoop-ReadWriteFork-0.16 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojo-IOLoop-ReadWriteFork-0.16
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18:41 sri more on the problem https://github.com/kraih/mojo/pull/875#issuecomment-158151060
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19:00 batman is there a way to make "mojo get" to read from STDIN? "mojo get -M POST -c ..." ?
19:01 * batman just checked
19:01 batman any interest in that functionality?
19:05 kes sri: I have seen that problem. I will dig it later...
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19:07 Craftsmanship I'm playing with the Swagger2 plugin, and it seems like i'm missing a part that says "please respond with json"
19:07 Craftsmanship is there some magic?
19:07 kes this will be useless if there will be ability to reuse template block from other template. But it is impossible as same as use my $var from other file
19:07 batman Craftsmanship: please join #swagger
19:08 Craftsmanship kes, isn't that template inheritance?
19:09 kes yes, my PR is related to template inheritance.
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20:03 dave Let me get this straight: they want to deprecate HTTP and move to 90 day automated certificate renewal?
20:03 * dave sighs
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20:06 ZoffixW batman, are there any drawbacks with using CSS::Sass over having actual sass installed for AssetPack?
20:07 ZoffixW hm. seems Debian has "ruby-sass" package. Would be nice to add it into docs, so as to not install the gems
20:26 Trelane okay, so in our app we're replacing the reply.exception handler
20:26 Trelane This is causing much debug log polution of the form [debug] Helper "reply.exception" already exists, replacing
20:27 Trelane Any suggestions what the best way around this would be?
20:27 Trelane There doesn't seem to be a way to remove helpers
20:27 sri that message is meant to help you
20:28 Trelane Does $app->renderer->add_helper(...), bypassing the helpful message seem like a sensible thing to do
20:29 Trelane or will that cause cats and dogs to lie together, you know, biblical stuff?
20:29 Trelane (I mean obviously there's no difference in the code, but maybe there's a very good reason not to do that)
20:31 sri anyone else think that log message is more annoying than helpful?
20:33 Trelane I think it _seems_ like a sensible thing to do most of the time
20:33 Trelane but in this case we know we're doing that, we don't need to see it a hundred times in our test suite
20:34 * Trelane changes his code to bypass the message for now
20:34 ZoffixW test in production mode?
20:36 sri Trelane: you're asking for ways to bypass a log message, obviously it doesn't serve its purpose
20:37 Trelane sri: Yeah.  So with Perl::Critic (which we use a lot) we have rules that we trigger on a semi-regular basis and then turn off with no critic
20:37 Trelane In other words, we want the protection that we didn't do it by mistake, but we want a way to turn it off when we really did mean that.
20:37 sri so "a sensible thing to do most of the time" seems like a very odd statement
20:38 Trelane This doesn't seem to allow us to do that
20:38 sri "i like this, but i don't want to ever use it"
20:38 Trelane Maybe I could be clearer;  This seems sensible as a default but I want a way to surpress
20:39 sri this is a design problem
20:39 sri there's actually a lot of debug messages, but this specific one bugs you
20:40 sri anyone else got an opinion in this?
20:40 Trelane This specific one isn't proving us with any useful stuff in the sitation we're using it, and it's obscuring the ones we care about
20:41 Trelane I don't know if this is a "just in our case" thing, or a "everyone has this problem" thing.  I'm not everyone ;-)
20:41 lluad For this specific case a clean solution would be to provide a way to explicitly remove, or explicitly replace the handler.
20:41 sri i never cared much for that log message
20:41 sri lluad: those exist, but it seems silly to recommend those over the polished way
20:42 Trelane I can't see a way to explictly remove
20:43 sri delete app->renderer->helpers->{foo}
20:43 lluad (Whether the debug notice is ever helpful is a different question.)
20:43 Trelane what about the proxy?
20:43 sri a question i'd like to discuss
20:44 sri Trelane: there should be no proxy at startup time
20:44 ZoffixW My opinion is I rather see the extra debug message when I did not purposefully redefine something that be missing it when I did not redefine.
20:44 sri if you've already used helpers at the time... well... then you're screwed
20:44 Trelane true
20:46 batman ZoffixW: CSS::Sass is always a bit behind.
20:46 batman not much, but if you're bleeding edge you might need the official command line tool
20:47 batman i think the ruby-sass version is too old in many cases. that's why it's not documented
20:47 batman (i could be wrong)
20:47 ZoffixW Oh
20:47 ZoffixW Well. It seems to work so far: http://modules.perl6.org/
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20:47 sri this is not the first time i've seen people bypass app->helper() for this
20:48 sri every now and then someone even asks if that's an error and how to fix it
20:49 batman ZoffixW:)
20:52 sri batman, jberger, marcusr, crab, tempire: thoughts?
20:55 batman i think it's a useful debug message
20:55 sri Trelane: app->renderer->add_helper() works too though
20:55 Trelane that's what I did
20:55 sri batman: but it makes out users actually avoid the recommended method/function
20:55 sri s/t/r/
20:57 batman "users" = Trelane?
20:57 sri i've seen others do it before
20:58 sri it's a recurring problem
20:58 batman ok. then i'm out numbered.
20:58 batman (but never outgunned)
20:58 batman it's not a big deal if the debug message is removed, but i have found it useful.
21:00 sri think the biggest problem is that it feels like an error message
21:01 sri like "Subroutine foo redefined", you appreciate the information, but don't want that in your code
21:01 batman yeah. +1 on that: i've only found it useful when it tells me i've done something stupid :/
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21:02 sri yea, that sums up what bugs me about it
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21:03 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v4HqO
21:03 good_news_everyon mojo/master 2df1437 Sebastian Riedel: improve helper method in Mojolicious to replace already existing helpers silently
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21:12 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v4HOf
21:12 good_news_everyon mojo/master 45dc0e4 Sebastian Riedel: mention how to list all helpers with a one-liner
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21:15 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v4H3I
21:15 good_news_everyon mojo/master 375843b Sebastian Riedel: mention how to list all helpers in more places
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21:21 sri if anyone here wants to bring back that debug message, find a way to make it sound less like an error
21:21 batman sounds good to me :)
21:25 genio ooooh.  Jessica Jones tomorrow
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21:31 Grinnz_ ooh, i love netflix premieres
21:34 genio The only problem is that after I've binge-watched the entire season in a weekend, I have to wait forever for the next one :)
21:34 genio gah.  s/,//
21:36 sri still much better than waiting a week for the next episode
21:37 Grinnz_ heh
21:37 sri also fun when networks air episodes in the wrong order
21:37 Grinnz_ i don't mind, netflix has plenty more shows to watch in the meantime
21:39 sri still remember when fox aired almost human episodes like 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 3, 10, 2, 9, 4, 11
21:39 Grinnz_ hahaha, fox of course also the one that screwed up firefly
21:39 sri i think firefly episodes were also aired in the wrong order -.-
21:39 Grinnz_ yea
21:40 Grinnz_ they aired the 3rd episode first, i originally watched them in aired order because the netflix app for xbox did that for some reason
21:40 Grinnz_ i was so confused about why the characters were being introduced in the 3rd episode
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23:07 jberger replace_helper method?
23:08 jberger maybe add_helper doesn't let you override at all, and replace does
23:08 jberger anyway, I'm off to the train, back in a few
23:10 sri jberger: there's more affected methods
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23:10 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/v4HbH
23:10 good_news_everyon mojo/master 9273033 Sebastian Riedel: better descriptions for a few related methods
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23:11 CandyAngel I'm kinda surprised Mojo::Loader doesn't return a Mojo::Collection
23:11 CandyAngel For find_modules I mean
23:12 CandyAngel find_modules('App::Namespace')->grep(!qr/DontLoad/)->map(sub{load_class $_}); seems useful
23:19 sri only the most commonly used methods get to return Mojo::Collection objects
23:20 sri not even all the arrayref returning ones in Mojo::DOM
23:45 asarch Is it correct? http://imgur.com/UYXWoDp

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