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IRC log for #mojo, 2016-07-06

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Time Nick Message
00:09 gtodd jberger: well the snippet you posted works ... but reading in from a file or URL I don't get the expected results
00:09 gtodd jberger: let me cook up an example
00:09 gtodd one sec
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00:20 gtodd jberger: ok here perl+Mojo scan the DOM and grab the one div with id=secondary
00:20 sri ok, it's been 30 mins, i'm closing the issue
00:21 gtodd jberger:  perl -Mojo -E 'g("https://dan.chak.org/enterprise-rails/chapter-1-the-big-picture/")->dom->find(q| div[id^="secondary"] |)->each(sub {say} );'
00:22 jberger gtodd: ok, works fine
00:22 jberger note that actualy says id starts with secondary
00:22 jberger and id has the shortcut #secondary
00:23 gtodd now to print everything but that div ....
00:23 gtodd perl -Mojo -E 'g("https://dan.chak.org/enterprise-rails/chapter-1-the-big-picture/")->dom->find(q| div:not([id^="secondary"])   |)->each(sub {say} );'
00:23 gtodd ?
00:23 jberger so div#secondary would be fine or even #secondary
00:24 gtodd it seems to print the :not filtered selector ... but in a strange way .... perl -Mojo -E 'g("https://dan.chak.org/enterprise-rails/chapter-1-the-big-picture/")->dom->find(q| div:not([id^="secondary"])   |)->each(sub {say} );' | ack secondary
00:24 gtodd I'm stacking chaining in the wrong way it seems ...
00:25 gtodd people like me are why a robust method is needed :)
00:27 jberger so the problem is that you are finding an outer div that isn't #secondary but rather contains #secondary
00:28 jberger particularly #page
00:28 gtodd jberger: hmm this could be a bad example since it's a wordpress site with tons of scripts and extra divs
00:29 gtodd right
00:29 gtodd ok good :-)
00:31 jberger so in this case yes, you would need to filter results using grep
00:32 gtodd OK good ... I think the other errors (with local files) were due to me wrapping the :not improperly  >>>   find(':not(div#whatever)')   <<<  instead of find 'div:not(#whaever)') ... not sure if docs sketchy or PEBKAC
00:33 jberger perl -CSAD -Mojo -E 'g("https://dan.chak.org/enterprise-rails/chapter-1-the-big-picture/")->dom->find(q|div:not(#secondary)|)->grep(sub{ ! $_->at(q|#secondary|) })->each(sub {say} );' | grep secondary
00:33 jberger :not(div#whatever) says any element that doesn't match id=whatever
00:33 jberger :not(div#whatever) says any element that doesn't match **div** id=whatever
00:34 jberger so you are going to get <p> tags and <div> tags etc etc
00:34 jberger div:not(...) means only divs but which are not
00:38 jberger it is too bad that the :contains pseudo-selector keeps getting killed
00:39 gtodd hmm on that page  was I grabbing the <!-- #secondary --> comment as well ?
00:40 jberger ?
00:40 jberger comments aren't elements (they are nodes though)
00:42 gtodd hmm OK can't see the other occurences of #secondary ... will look in chrome web dev thing
00:44 gtodd ah OK I see it now
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01:02 jberger hmmm :has is still here: https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors-4/#relational
01:09 jberger https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54748578.jpg
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01:37 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vKIGf
01:37 good_news_everyon mojo/master 80af325 Sebastian Riedel: the authority method is no longer needed
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01:38 sri that's what i meant with #980
01:39 sri actually quite a performance improvement too
01:39 sri since all the $foo->authority($bar->authority) calls were crazy expensive
01:45 sri btw. mojolicious is now quite a bit smaller than catalyst :)
01:46 sri 8451 lines of code vs 8522
01:46 gtodd ?? that must be the most basic Catalyst possible
01:46 sri just the core
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02:04 bpmedley sri: Just to let you know that I was trying, I went down the path of making "host_port" similar to "authority". Yours is much better, although, I learned a few things.. :) https://gist.github.com/brianmed/9bba99bad16cb4aa62a031be0ff1ab05
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02:09 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vKIZo
02:09 good_news_everyon mojo/master 7050cbd Sebastian Riedel: mention the web development toolkit
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02:11 jberger sri++
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02:13 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vKIZM
02:13 good_news_everyon mojo/master 26b1d10 Sebastian Riedel: no need to say more twice
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04:09 punter What does this room think of RPerl?
04:19 jberger my comment would broadly be: "not relevant"
04:22 preaction mine is "part of a healthy ecosystem" and "the p5p bashing really needs to stop"
04:23 jberger sure, I don't mind that it exists
04:23 jberger but it is essentially another language that vaugely looks like perl sometimes
04:24 jberger you can write new code for it it you want, but old code is unlikely to work (as I understand it)
04:24 preaction correct. that is not really its purpose
04:25 preaction afaict it's for people who have cpu-intensive use-cases (so, math and science)
04:25 jberger thus <punter> What does **this room** think of RPerl? <jberger> ... not relevant
04:26 jberger (not that you were arguing, I'm just listening to an audiobook and watching the rain and typing)
04:27 preaction i wonder if the B::C, B::CC, and .pmc well is too poison for anyone else to try drinking out of in the future...
04:28 jberger I keep wanting to find a reason (other than a cruel April Fools prank) to use .pmc for something
04:29 jberger but not for B::C purposes
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05:29 jberger If anyone is interested I am getting closer to releasing my websocket multiplexer
05:29 jberger https://github.com/jberger/Mojolicious-Plugin-Multiplex
05:29 jberger review and comments would be appreciated
05:31 jberger (also it is really weird being so far west that people are asleep at this time of my day)
06:38 Atog cool stuff!
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09:03 coolo batman: how would I reference e.g. a favicon asset and where would it live in my app? you have a PNG pipe but I'm unable to grasp from the documentation if I can have image assets
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13:24 orev coolo: anything under bin/public will be served as is
13:25 orev or I should say just "under public/" directory, relative to the location of the main mojo script
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13:28 coolo orev: I know, but it won't be served with a hash tag - so it requires another 304 round trip for the browser to verify it's still the same
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16:48 gtodd preaction: ygrok++ :-)
16:49 preaction thanks! that whole project needs quite a bit of love
16:49 preaction so, if you've got any itches you want to scratch, the PR lines are open ;)
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17:06 gtodd heh
17:07 gtodd right trying to use it to convert user  stories into YAML  docs for Test::Cucumber::Tiny  ;-)
17:08 gtodd add any regexp and make it produce YAML :)
17:08 gtodd pretty cool
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17:23 sri do i hate mongodb inc
17:24 sri now they've taken the bson api i came up with and did not give credit
17:25 genio That seems a bit messed up.  Isn't there someone in the Perl community that works for MongoDB?
17:25 vicash xdg  i think
17:26 vicash dagolden/xdg works for Mongo
17:28 genio maybe run it by xdg, then? Maybe it's a mistake he can help correct
17:28 sri of course apis are not real intellectual property, but still stings a little after all the problems with mongodb
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17:36 sri hahaha, xdg is the one who wants to push mongodb inc code into Mango https://github.com/oliwer/mango/issues/23
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17:44 * sri advocates against mongodb on the mailing-list instead of worrying more about that mess
17:45 sri think that's the best way to show mongodb inc my disappointment, every time someone asks a mongodb related question, i'll lobby against it
17:46 sri (it's not about the api thing at all btw., the systemic failures of mongodb over years still annoy me)
17:47 sri how they made independent clients intentionally impossible with crazy protocol designs
17:48 sri mongodb is just terrible on all levels, and people should know that :)
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17:52 sri little crazy how even i have pretty much nothing to complain about with postgresql
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17:53 xdg sri, hi.  Sorry to hear you're upset with me.  How can I help?
17:55 sri xdg: i'm upset with mongodb inc
17:55 sri and for that you might be a few years late ;p
17:56 xdg I'll only take credit for anything after March 2014.  :-)
17:56 xdg And only if I had any choices in the matter.
17:56 xdg Re API, do you mean the bson_XXX functions?
17:57 sri yea, discussions have been had about that years ago with your predecessors
17:58 sri stings a little that you're now going around cherry picking the stuff you like
17:58 sri after destroying independent mongodb clients
17:59 xdg Sorry, I didn't know.  Helpers seemed logical and the naming seemed relatively obvious.  I'm happy to give you credit in the HISTORY section if you'd like.
18:00 sri note that i'm not upset with you personally, but the shitty behavior of mongodb inc over years
18:00 xdg What you think of as "cherry picking", I see as trying to de-fragment.
18:00 xdg See https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-perl-bson/blob/master/devel/bson-types-survey.md
18:00 xdg That was a FPITA to assemble.
18:01 jberger youch, that is a lot to dig through
18:01 xdg I agree that historical designs didn't allow for much modularity/re-use.
18:01 xdg And why I've gotten them to agree to let me release components separately for interop.  (E.g. Authen::SCRAM)
18:03 xdg sri, in any case, should I add you to the HISTORY (or CONTRIBUTORS) section(s)?  (Wouldn't want you to accuse me of using your name to endorse a MongoDB product without permission  :-)
18:07 sri if you don't believe i have contributed anything of value, then of course i don't want you to add me"
18:10 jberger sri: xdg already said "I'm happy to give you credit in the HISTORY section if you'd like" now he is asking if you would actually like to have that done (e.g. perhaps you don't want your name attached)
18:11 sri jberger: context http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/2016-07-06#i_12795819
18:11 jberger ah true
18:11 jberger ok carry on :-P
18:12 * jberger needs coffee
18:12 jberger (oh hey look coffee!)
18:12 sri if i contributed something of value, then yes, please give me credit without making it look like an endorsement
18:12 xdg brb
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18:24 sri but i do not want some sort of consolation price for getting screwed by mongodb inc
18:24 xdg back!
18:24 sri i find that part offensive
18:26 xdg sri, I suspect that I would have arrived at a similar API given the (obvious) need, but I'm sure that the form was strongly influenced by seeing what you had already done in Mango.  That said, I did not "copy" the API in any direct sense.  If you feel credit for inspiration is important to you, I'm happy to do so.
18:28 xdg I mean this sincerely.
18:28 sri so you wouldn't give credit on your own
18:29 sri i'm certainly not going to insist on anything
18:30 xdg The subtext of what you've been saying is "I wish they'd given me credit".  I'm just asking for confirmation.
18:30 xdg Personally, I tend not to try to mentally account for all my sources of inspiration, but I never object to formalizing that if someone points it out.
18:31 xdg I tend to try to account for "I adapted this code from module Foo by J.A. Perl Hacker", because that's legally required.
18:31 sri this is not your personal code though, i would care a lot less if it was
18:32 xdg In saying "I'm sure the form was strongly influenced [by your work]", I'm giving your credit.  The issue at hand is whether you feel published acknowlegement would be nice as well.
18:33 xdg I would normally just have done it at this point, but I don't want to do that and have you *later* claim I'm making it look like you endorse MongoDB products.
18:33 sri it would have been nice, now it diesn't really mean much anymore
18:33 xdg So if you feel I'm being a stickler, it's because I'm trying to be sensitive to your other stated views. :-)
18:34 xdg Aside: I have to go pick up my daughter from camp, but I'll be back online around 4pm or so. &
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18:56 gtodd p5p++ l  :heart: ove for p5p
18:56 gtodd love
18:56 gtodd :)
18:56 gtodd <3
18:56 gtodd sigh
19:02 sri xdg: what do you want from me? to ask you to pretty please add my name to the module?
19:02 sri either mongodb inc considers my contributions noteworthy or they don't
19:03 sri you keep adding smileys, but that doesn't make what you're doing here any less offensive
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19:15 sri xdg: anyway, this is off-topic and i'm ending it now
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19:17 sri mongodb horror stories remain on-topic though :)
19:52 odc look at you, talking about mango without me
19:52 odc so sri, could you tell me more about why you think mango should stay as independent as possible?
19:54 sri odc: because mongodb inc is toxic, but do whatever you want with mango, i'm not invested in it anymore
19:55 odc ok
19:56 odc well, i don't really have a choice anyway
19:57 xdg sri, I'll take that as a "yes", so https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-perl-bson/commit/1ae75a2dfa8048ebf23729599b89a276ed48ba68
19:59 odc nice. I had no idea sri had a part in this
20:02 sri odc: mongodb inc has never done anything positive for independent clients, kept specs private for years, even when they existed internally, pushed so much functionality into the client that nobody else could keep up...
20:03 sri they are the worst kind of open source
20:04 sri i wouldn't trust them with anything
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20:04 odc yeah i get that
20:04 odc although, i think it's still better than Oracle's model
20:05 odc anyway, i just don't want to let down current (and future) mango users
20:05 sri almost certain killing independent clients to make their own more popular was policy for a long time
20:06 sri just use postgresql, and have peace of mind
20:06 odc it's like apple's policy: control everything to guaranty the quality
20:06 xdg I don't really want to be in the middle of this particular debate, but I've seen no evidence of that in 2+ years.
20:06 odc you'll be happy to hear i don't use mongodb anymore :)
20:07 sri except mongodb delivers garbage ;p
20:07 sri (well, i suppose apple delivered garbage to me twice now too...)
20:07 odc elasticsearch is garbadge too but people don't hate it so much
20:07 sri odc: good for you :)
20:08 jberger <3 postgres (that's about as far as I want to wade into this thing too)
20:08 sri well, if you use elasticsearch as a database you get yelled at too ;)
20:08 odc xdg, (i don't really think it's garbage)
20:09 odc and i'm very happy about BSON: the fact that Mango user will be able to use BSON::XS one day is awesome
20:11 xdg I don't begrudge anyone their opinion based on their past experience.  I do hope people will see that my goal is to make things better.
20:12 odc xdg, do you know if someone is working on the Jespen test at MongoDB inc ?
20:12 xdg Yes, it's being used internally now.  Possibly in the CI system, but I'm sure about that.
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20:13 odc good
20:13 jberger xdg++
20:13 xdg e.g. https://evergreen.mongodb.com/task/mongodb_mongo_master_ubuntu1404_jepsen_jepsen_findAndModify_150s_WT_eba32f352cffd1dbe8ca451bde5944b997bfebf5_16_07_06_18_17_46
20:14 xdg (heh, that was supposed to be "I'm *not* sure" but then I found it.)
20:16 odc jberger, is it forbidden to talk about mojolicious plugins on the mailing-list?
20:16 jberger ?
20:17 odc just answer what you think
20:17 odc i mean non-core plugins
20:17 sri if it's about the plugin itself then yes, it is off topic
20:18 odc aw you saw where i was going
20:18 sri we don't want plugins to just forward all their support to the main mailing list
20:18 odc don't you care about your eco system?
20:18 jberger odc: that is a bit of a leap
20:18 odc mm true
20:19 jberger I would listen to a proposal about another mailing list for ancillary discussion
20:19 sri when mango was a core spin-off project it had special privileges, but not anymore
20:19 jberger but there is enough traffic on the official mailing list as it is, if projects drove more traffic to it it could get too far off on signal/noise
20:20 odc yeah a 2nd ml would be nice, if it gets enough traffic :/
20:20 jberger by the way, this is consistent with both convos and swagger, both of which have their own channels of communication, it isn't just mango
20:20 sri correct
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20:22 jberger there are smaller modules, things like ForkCall and ReadWriteFork which could probably benefit from a mojolicious-contributed mailing list
20:23 jberger they are never going to be big enough to have their own communication but are independent enough to not really merit being on the main mailing list
20:23 odc it's just, i think you should be happy someone is using mango instead of the other driver. It pains me to just tell them "go away"
20:24 sri if you go too off topic people leave
20:24 sri that's just how it is
20:24 odc yeah i guess
20:26 jberger sri: any opposition to me creating a Mojolicious-Contributed mailing list? (also any ideas of names anyone?)
20:27 sri talking about off-topic, i really need a new scifi show to watch
20:27 sri jberger: don't like the name
20:27 odc maybe... mojolicious-community ?
20:28 jberger odc: I'm not sure I want to moderate a list that is THAT general sounding
20:28 jberger like mojolicious-offtopic scares me to death
20:28 odc heh
20:28 odc at least it would get traffic :)
20:28 sri finally a mailing-list to discuss gardening
20:28 jberger \o/
20:29 jberger sri: if you like gardening, the north side of Kauai is your kind of place
20:30 odc mojo-extra ? mojo-universe ? (ubuntu inspired)
20:31 jberger I don't hate universe
20:31 jberger with an appropriate description
20:31 sri yea, not hating it either
20:32 odc where is batman?
20:34 xdg mojo-ecosystem?
20:35 jabberwok ahh, the garden aisle of Cow-Eye
20:36 odc gotta go. Nice talking to you everyone!
20:37 jberger hmmm universe vs ecosystem
20:37 sri universe, definitely
20:37 jberger meanwhile for the description: "Discussions about Mojolicious tangential topics. Modules, applications, protocols that are just off-topic from the main mailing list are at home here."
20:37 mishanti1 To infinity, and beyond!
20:38 jabberwok a hotbed of malcontents?
20:38 * jberger sets jabberwok on fire
20:38 jberger (that feels good, haven't done that in a while)
20:38 * jberger lights tianon while he's at it
20:38 * jabberwok slaps himself with the trout
20:38 sri "Discussions about the extended Mojolicious ecosystem. Modules, applications, protocols that are off-topic from the main mailing-list are at home here."
20:39 sri maybe mention 3rd-party
20:39 jberger I think that's implied
20:40 * tianon crackles, alight with flame
20:40 sri "Discussions about the extended Mojolicious ecosystem. 3rd-party modules, applications and protocols are at home here."
20:40 jberger though maybe I get what you mean, you don't want core discussions to accidentally end up over there
20:41 jberger tianon: o/
20:41 sri p/
20:41 jabberwok so... on the off-topic list, topics sufficiently off-topic could be on-topic?
20:41 sri ouch, my head
20:41 * jberger checks to make sure jabberwok is still burning
20:46 jabberwok $self->fire->light($baby)->c_mon();
20:46 jberger jabberwok++
20:46 jberger I'm of the opinion that The Doors are still ahead of their time, even now
20:47 mishanti1 jberger: How about the windows?
20:47 jberger meh
20:47 jabberwok the windows95 counter-refrain: "Shut Me Down"
20:52 jberger https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/mojolicious-universe
20:53 jberger odc: ^^
21:00 sri wow, took me this long to learn how to pin topics on google groups
21:00 * sri pins the wishlist thread to the top for a bit
21:00 jberger nice
21:01 jberger for the record, I'm explicitly mentioning that the Mojolicious Code of Conduct applies, but that is actually already true from the wording of that document
21:09 bpmedley sri++, jberger++ # mojolicious-universe
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21:17 sri suppose the removal of text trimming in Mojo::DOM will be the most noticeable change in 7.0
21:17 sri going to be some complaints there i'm sure
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21:21 jberger was there no hope for a solution?
21:21 jberger a lot of that discussion happened while I was travelling
21:21 jberger and/or jet lagged
21:23 sri no, too complicated
21:29 sri literally everyone i told just how complicated bailed immediately ;p
21:29 Grinnz_ i feel like using ->grep and ->join tailored to your particular use case was usually a better option anyway
21:31 sri jberger: pinned your announcement
21:31 jberger excellent, thanks!
21:31 jberger if successful I'll need some moderator volunteers too, but for now (unless someone really wants in) I can do it my self
21:32 * sri hides
21:32 jberger I didn't really think you would want it sri :-P
21:33 jberger this is a big jump for me though, I'm not much of a mailing list guy
21:33 genio jberger: heh.  it seems you've won.  well volunteered! :)
21:33 sri it's more of a forum anyway
21:33 jberger I've only been reading the mojolicious mailing list consistently for a few months (finally did the digest view)
21:33 genio make a twitter bot to annoy you with it or something
21:34 jberger genio: it seemed like a reasonable request and I'd rather it come from the core team than completely outside
21:34 jberger the digest emails are nice
21:37 genio jberger: I hope my wording came off as innocently joking as I meant it to. That wasn't a criticism at all, just poking fun at you for getting set with more responsibility
21:37 jberger no I got it
21:37 jberger but I really am saying that the digest view is a nice compromise
21:39 Grinnz_ I don't mind the individual emails, that's what I have gmail filters for
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