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IRC log for #mojo, 2016-07-19

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Time Nick Message
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00:27 ningu I am getting occasional zombie processes with my app, which is using hypnotoad. any idea how I can go about debugging this?
00:27 ningu the logs don't show anything obvious (but I haven't changed logging params at all)
00:30 jberger ningu: are you using any other forking or forking modules?
00:32 ningu hmmmm
00:32 ningu good question
00:32 ningu "in general", no
00:33 ningu but there are a couple places where a subprocess is forked in certain situations. if that is causing the problem I can try to change it
00:33 ningu the issue is wanting to return the response immediately and have the subprocess do its job later
00:36 ningu the docs don't seem to say anything about not forking
00:37 ningu how would one properly handle the situation I described?
00:39 Grinnz ningu, a job queue/separate daemon
00:39 Grinnz like Minion
00:39 ningu ok, cool
00:39 ningu sounds like a plan :)
00:43 jberger I'm not saying you can't fork, but I'm going to guess that those are much more likely to be your problem
00:49 ningu yeah, I knew it was probably a bad idea anyway
00:49 ningu just hadn't gotten around to fixing it yet
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03:03 ningu is it a bad idea to exec() from a Minion job? or is it my process and I can do what I want? :P
03:05 sri am i crazy or is this like the 10th time you're doing something really weird with mojolicious?
03:06 ningu haha
03:06 ningu I am trying to port an old cgi script
03:06 ningu it does a lot of crazy things
03:06 ningu and I am slowly but surely making them less crazy
03:06 ningu but, it's hard to change it all at once
03:06 sri ah, that makes sense
03:07 ningu so it used to fork() and then exec()
03:07 ningu for certain commands that it needs to run
03:08 ningu hmm
03:08 ningu looks like they are both external perl scripts
03:08 ningu I'll just incorporate them into the app
03:24 sri hmm, wonder if this guy would mind if i use the picture for the release announcement https://twitter.com/simonfalicon/status/711159028307599361
03:24 sri want to add a footnote about stickers, and that style just fits nicely
04:19 ningu am I suppose to always call $job->finish or $job->fail from the worker? that would make sense, but the docs don't say.
04:19 ningu supposed*
04:43 jberger ningu: if you don't call one, and if it doesn't die, then it will automatically finish
04:43 jberger if it dies it will automatically fail (actually I think it is really if it exits with non-zero
04:43 jberger )
04:44 ningu ah, ok
04:44 ningu I guess I will call finish anyway just to be explicit
04:44 ningu but good to know
04:44 jberger there is one consideration of optimization
04:45 jberger if the job doesn't need any connection to the database then it is actually cheaper not to make one in the worker process just to call finish
04:45 jberger the manager process already has a connection
04:45 ningu I see
04:45 ningu that makes sense
04:45 jberger that said, if you want to finish with any data attached then you basically have to do it from the worker process (i.e. inside the task body)
04:46 ningu sure. so happens I don't need to, though :)
04:46 ningu there is one case (so far) where I definitely need to call ->fail
04:47 ningu also, when do I need to restart the worker(s) vs. the app?
04:47 ningu if the worker subs are the same but the app is updated, is that fine to just leave the same workers running?
04:47 jberger in that case, yes you can leave it running
04:48 jberger but once you get a large app with a lot of helpers (that might be shared) it could get harder and harder to be sure you haven't changed anything that matters
04:48 jberger early on its fine, but keep any eye out for automation tooling
04:49 ningu there is only a small number of tasks so far
04:49 ningu and they are pretty self-contained. so it should be ok to just remember
04:49 ningu I don't expect the list to grow but we'll see
04:56 ningu cool, the tasks are working properly. yay
04:57 jberger nice
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05:06 ningu it was really easy to set up. I wonder though, I assume each worker has its own instance of the app? it must
05:24 jberger Basically yes
05:25 jberger Having an instance of the app is fairly cheap though
05:26 sri btw. stranger things is really really good
05:26 sri if you like movies like super 8
05:29 ningu jberger: right, I figured as much
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06:17 sri breakfast time in europe, wonder if now would be a good time to release
06:17 dod joined #mojo
06:18 sri americans will start waking up in about 6 hours
06:19 sri asia is leaving work soon
06:19 firnsy 40mins left in australia :D
06:19 jberger Hawaii is having dessert
06:20 sri oh well, uploaded 7.0 ;p
06:20 jberger \o/
06:21 * ssm is going to have some quality time with the changelog…
06:23 sri tweeted https://twitter.com/kraih/status/755286489253175296
06:23 sri and submitted to HN https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
06:23 sri upboat!
06:26 sri don't even try linking to the hackernews thread directly, votes only count if you reach it from another page on HN
06:27 rubes joined #mojo
06:27 bpmedley sri++
06:36 sri 7 votes, not bad, 2-3 more and it should be on the frontpage
06:37 jberger Everybody go vot... ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!!!!
06:37 sri or trump wins!
06:38 Adura Jesus, wouldn't want Hillary to win...
06:38 * jberger saves lots (and lots!) of snarky remarks
06:38 sri http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/giant-meteor-2016-bumper-sticker-4.jpg
06:39 jberger https://twitter.com/smod2016
06:39 sri hahahaha, i didn't know this one yet http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.24085188.8172/fc,550x550,white.u2.jpg
06:41 jberger btw, tweeted too: https://twitter.com/joelaberger/status/755290342862102528
06:41 Topic for #mojo is now ???? nom nom | http://mojolicious.org | http://irclog.mojolicious.org | http://code-of-conduct.mojolicious.org
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06:41 Topic for #mojo is now
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06:42 sri oi!
06:42 Topic for #mojo is now ???? nom nom | http://mojolicious.org | http://irclog.mojolicious.org | http://code-of-conduct.mojolicious.org
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06:42 Topic for #mojo is now
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06:43 jberger hmmmm convos is telling me "No topic is set"
06:43 jberger strange
06:43 sri chanserv is killing it
06:46 Topic for #mojo is now ???? nom nom | http://mojolicious.org | http://irclog.mojolicious.org | http://code-of-conduct.mojolicious.org
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06:46 Topic for #mojo is now
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06:46 sri argh
06:46 Topic for #mojo is now  
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06:46 Topic for #mojo is now
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06:46 Adura Heh.
06:47 Topic for #mojo is now no more topics?
06:47 ChanServ joined #mojo
06:47 Topic for #mojo is now
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06:47 Adura Did someone try to lock something with CS settings?
06:48 Adura Looks like they did, without knowing what they were doing, heh.
06:48 stephan48 sri: register the channel with chanserv?
06:48 Topic for #mojo is now ???? nom nom | http://mojolicious.org | http://irclog.mojolicious.org | http://code-of-conduct.mojolicious.org
06:48 stephan48 gj
06:48 sri someone turned the topic lock in chanserv on
06:48 stephan48 good morning :)
06:48 sri morning
06:48 stephan48 congrats for releasing 7.0!
06:48 sri and upvote the release post on HN! https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
06:49 sri :)
06:49 dabudabu Grats!
06:49 stephan48 is the channel registered at all?
06:49 jberger stephan48: yes
06:49 stephan48 was confused because it does not have mode +r - so i suggested registering it
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06:56 jberger stephan48: not sure how I would do that (add +r)
06:57 jberger ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
06:57 sri 9 votes on HN and no frontpage yet, odd
06:58 sri wonder if they have to happen in quick succession
06:59 stephan48 jberger: on other networks there is the r channel mode for designating chanserv registered channels
07:00 stephan48 but its a config between chanserv and the network so it might be disabled here
07:04 jberger ah, sri, when topiclock is set then you can only change the topic with /msg chanserv set topic ....
07:06 sri i really don't get it
07:06 sri this one pops up on the frontpage with 4 votes https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12120167
07:08 sri ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
07:08 jberger might only get processed every so often?
07:08 jberger keep voting!
07:11 dabudabu Maybe you the voting ring detector got set off?
07:11 dabudabu -you
07:11 sri nobody linked directly to the post
07:12 sri but who knows, maybe if you only vote that one post it sets off the alarms
07:28 jberger hahaha, not only plagiarism but a rick roll too! http://www.vox.com/2016/7/19/12221654/melania-trump-rickroll
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07:31 jberger oh I can't wait for the cut-edit videos to come
07:32 jberger it might even rival "Goat Shaped Box" and I love that one
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07:49 jberger clicking through hacker news (which I actually try to avoid) I found this: http://martinfowler.com/articles/serverless.html
07:50 jberger I've heard some rumbling about "Serverless" before but ugh, its just CGI but rather than spinning up an interpreter it spins up an ephemeral OS and runs your "function"
07:50 jberger ?
07:50 jberger ye gods we are going backwards
07:51 jberger I should start a CGI hosting company and just call it a Serverless FaaS host provider or some such nonsense
07:59 batman wow! I've been away too long.
07:59 batman 7.0 <3
07:59 batman sri++
08:08 Jonis :D
08:10 ningu Mojo::Template didn't already support named variables? what have I been using? :P
08:21 coolo oh joy, my tests broke with 7. 7up, 7 down ;)
08:22 * coolo never liked doughtnuts anyway
08:33 jberger coolo: I'm curious, what were you doing that broke?
08:40 sri it will be text trimming ;p
08:41 jberger Ah right
08:41 ningu sri: just curious, why was that removed?
08:42 sri because we couldn't figure out how to do it right
08:42 sri anyone who wants it back can propose it as a new feature
08:42 sri but will have to figure out exact rules
08:43 ningu yeah, I can see it would be complicated
08:43 sri for all the special cases
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08:44 ningu I wonder what beautifulsoup does. haven't used it in a while
08:47 batman coolo: did you look at the Favicon code?
08:58 jkramer dotan: Sorry, I was AFK yesterday and then it was time to go home yesterday. :) Thanks for the gist, but batman's suggestion seems a lot easier :)
09:01 jkramer batman: I guess with push you meant unshift? Or is the order reversed?
09:02 batman jkramer: what i meant was "modifiy" impossible for me to know if push or unshift is what you want.
09:03 batman *modify
09:04 jkramer Ok :) I want to repeat step 1 + 2 several times before proceeding to step 3, so I guess unshift it is
09:05 batman then maybe you want splice ;)
09:06 jkramer What? :D Why not just unshift to prepend the two steps?
09:06 batman depends if you start counting on 0 or 1... nevermind. i'm just failing to be funny :P
09:06 jkramer (I'm not sure how exactly ->remains works, I suppose it's an array of steps left to execute)
09:06 batman as long as you know what you want, then all is good
09:06 jkramer Alright, thanks :)
09:07 batman did you read the documentation?
09:07 batman https://metacpan.org/pod/Mojo::IOLoop::Delay#remaining <-- that's pretty much what it says
09:07 batman :)
09:08 jkramer Yeah, it's not super much. :) For example I wouldn't have guessed that it's a reference to the internal array so I can mess with it from the outside :)
09:11 jkramer Anyhow, your solutions works perfectly, thanks a bunch :)
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09:15 jkramer Would be nice to have a $delay->prepend_step or something. Modifying the array from the outside seems like something that might easily be broken by changes to the internals of Delay
09:34 coolo batman: sorry, no
09:34 coolo jberger: http://paste.opensuse.org/58835730
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09:45 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-Directory-Stylish-1.004 by COFFEE https://metacpan.org/release/COFFEE/Mojolicious-Plugin-Directory-Stylish-1.004
09:53 batman jkramer: don't be afraid of that. this api is very stable :)
09:53 jkramer ok :)
09:54 batman and i don't think there's any methods left that returns a list. they (should) all return an array ref
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12:17 sri xdg: what irony? https://twitter.com/xdg/status/755358172894953472
12:20 anparker wasn't it there for a long time?
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12:21 sri almost looks like sawyer and xdg are trying to stir up trouble
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12:24 Lee i think you're reading too much into it
12:24 sri we'll see
12:27 marcus sri: I don't think sawyer was, but xdg's comment isn't too friendly
12:28 sri both seem mean spirited to me, xdg is the one starting it, but sawyer joins in
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12:30 marcus sri: yeah. :-/
12:31 marcus Anyways, I'm leaving on vacation for 10 days in a moment
12:31 marcus so will be even less around :)
12:34 sri even less? does that work like an overflow error and you'll be around all the time?
12:35 marcus Could be.
12:35 sri \o/
12:35 marcus Depends on the quality of the internet and how bored I am in Italy.
12:37 sri for future reference, when i get accused of being the one starting fights http://i.imgur.com/LxcGoe7.png
12:41 sri xdg: the real irony here is that you two are the ones doing what you keep accusing me of
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12:58 sri oh, xdg, sawyer and ambs are actually all dancer core devs
12:59 stephan48 sri: Bender is the op bot here?
12:59 sri no, the server has chanserv
12:59 stephan48 ah ok
13:01 stephan48 just wanted to remark, the @ count is near zero atm. but with chanserv its no problem
13:02 sri gonna keep this one for future reference too http://i.imgur.com/HIZmNxo.png
13:02 batman people are strange...
13:03 sri well, i imagine dancer is not in a good place, and they need to let off some steam
13:03 Lee batman: people don't understand the mojo isn't just a web framework
13:03 Lee s/the/that/
13:03 sri ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13:09 Lee and it's easier to make a smart-arse tweet on twitter than actually raise an issue to ask the question
13:09 Lee twitter-- # destruction of the internal monologue
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13:12 batman sri ;)
13:12 batman Lee: i know
13:15 ribasushi not true - one can ask a decent question in 140c: https://twitter.com/ribasushi/status/755389885121527808
13:19 Lee the original tweet begged a question, that's my problem with it
13:19 Lee yours is much better :)
13:20 marcus I guess because perl toolchain can't express - depend on lwp or mojo
13:20 ribasushi mine would never happen if it wan't for the original question (which has merit)
13:20 ribasushi so all is well in the end
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13:24 ribasushi marcus: in case my link was too subtle: the net-part of the dist is no more: the online service behind it is gone
13:24 ribasushi so neither lwp nor mojo would help in any way
13:25 sri and here we go with the accusations https://twitter.com/PerlSawyer/status/755392818630254593
13:27 ribasushi sri: last week you did abuse xdg quite openly without provocation
13:27 ribasushi I witnessed it myself, and there is a log of it
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13:27 ribasushi I don't want to go deeper into this, mind, but facts are facts
13:27 marcus Rina: link?
13:28 marcus Damn you autocorrect.
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13:29 ribasushi marcus: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/2016-07-06#i_12795819
13:29 sri he prolly means the one where i was angry at mongodb inc., but i was not abusive
13:31 sri ribasushi: where have i been abusive?
13:31 batman yeah... i don't get it from that log...
13:31 ribasushi sri: I don't want to take this further, because you come from the pov that I do not mean well
13:31 sri have i been mean to a company?
13:32 ribasushi sri: I urge you to ask your peers in private for their honest opinion
13:32 sri jberger: we need an adult
13:36 marcus I dont see abuse there either.
13:38 ribasushi one more thing actually, to make my intent clear(er) on the record: I am in no way an apologist for Dancer* (which i consider broken by design), nor empathize for sawyer (who took something that wasn't his to take and is actively running a community I felt a part of into the ground. I am as 3rd party as it gets.
13:42 sri just recently i was in a bad mood and did go too far... jberger gave me a timeout and i was banned from #mojo for a week
13:42 sri there is no reason to believe abusive behavior would get ignored
13:48 sri think it was even my birthday when i got banned
13:55 marcus Jberger - thoughtful as ever :D
13:58 xdg @sri, I'm very comfortable letting the community judge my tone here.
13:58 xdg For the record, while I did contribute to Dancer, I am not a "core dev".  I've handed off all my plugins as well.
13:59 sri xdg: you're on the list though https://metacpan.org/pod/Dancer2#CORE-DEVELOPERS
13:59 xdg And when I'm the sole Perl dev at MongoDB for 2+ years, whitewashing attacks by naming the company instead of me personally isn't much of a distinction
13:59 xdg sri, I can't help what they say.
14:00 xdg I'll ask them to chagne it, though.
14:00 sri xdg: for the record, i did mean mongodb inc, not you
14:00 xdg re mongodb comments: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/mojo/2016-07-06#i_12796654
14:00 sri i only got a little miffed after the back and forth about worthyness of my contributions
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14:01 pink_mist xdg: the comment you linked to there isn't about their perl stuff specifically though
14:01 xdg I've been doing what I can to help Mango with code and comments.  I don't see that as "never done anything positive".
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14:02 sri xdg: i think you were only a few weeks at the company when i gave up everything mongodb
14:02 sri i have not touched mongodb in like 2 years now
14:02 xdg sri, I filed https://github.com/PerlDancer/Dancer2/issues/1218
14:03 xdg sri, I'd been there about 6 months and had spent a lot of time lobbying for things like publishing specs to 3rd party developers
14:04 xdg (which previously hadn't been done)
14:04 xdg unfortunately, you didn't like the first spec published (which I understand)
14:04 xdg In any case, my "ironic" comment was only that I'd felt a lot of hostility the other week.
14:05 xdg I'm happy to write it off to you being "miffed" and hope we can both do better in the future.
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14:06 sri lets do that
14:06 xdg In any case, I'm sure we're way off topic again and I have to get back to work.  TTFN. &
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14:11 bd word I learned today, miffed.
15:34 mpapec sri++ for 7.0 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12120138
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15:34 sri <3
15:34 mpapec perhaps someone may find this interesting, http://io9.gizmodo.com/this-live-action-futurama-fan-film-is-both-incredibly-i-1783906105
15:35 mpapec oh yeah
15:35 mpapec I've found very old thread on github
15:36 mpapec regarding multicore testing with mojo
15:36 mpapec is this still interesting?
15:37 pink_mist iirc yes
15:37 mpapec I'll try to run it when back to work
15:37 pink_mist also, thaks for the gizmodo link =)
15:38 pink_mist *thanks
15:38 mpapec np ;)
15:38 mpapec I'm just wondering if there are some special requirements when doing tests
15:39 pink_mist well, the system shouldn't be under other load =)
15:39 pink_mist otherwise the results won't really be accurate
15:39 mpapec like runing client from another machine or something
15:39 mpapec g
15:40 mpapec ok, I'll try that
16:12 sri haha, spaces win the tabs vs spaces war! https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1154339
16:14 Grinnz_ funny that more characters would be faster :P
16:14 Grinnz_ I remember various things about whitespace affecting javascript performance though
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17:52 ningu am I right in understanding that named template params used to be part of Mojolicious and are now directly part of Mojo::Template?
17:52 ningu I didn't use Mojo::Template before the change
18:03 jberger I'm just going to say, I'm proud of the channel as a whole for staying civil just there
18:05 jberger I also want to mention, as sri dogs about himself, that a few weeks ago when we had a bit of a tiff (another new word for you bd?) that I openly asked the channel if I had overstepped
18:05 jberger We core members are not above our own rules
18:06 jberger Whatever may have happened in the past we cannot change but we CAN continue to strive to be a great community
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18:15 ningu apparently I missed something interesting
18:15 ningu glad it worked out
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18:25 jberger ningu: you didn't miss anything
18:32 * sri answers https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4tjsue/mojolicious_70_released_perl_realtime_web/?st=iqtsqya7&amp;sh=14b04ea2
18:34 sri maybe i should have just multiplied the rps results by a million and made people wonder hwo i did it :)
18:35 ningu hehe
18:37 sri nice there's no perl hate though
18:37 sri didn't even think about submitting it to r/programming
18:38 Grinnz indeed
18:46 sri btw. re announcement timing, it seems early morning in europe might not be ideal
18:46 sri last year i got 50 retweets, and this year 30
18:47 sri have a feeling tuesday morning in the us might be the best time
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18:55 neilhwatson It's summer, plenty on vacation.
18:56 sri true
19:13 jberger You can retweet your own tweets now
19:13 jberger What a fascinating new world we live in
19:15 mishanti1 Just retweeted, thought to a very limited following.
19:15 mishanti1 Might also be mostly bots/trolls.
19:17 sri two more stickers sold
19:18 sri i'm not actually earning money with them, but knowing that somewhere there's now another laptop with a mojo sticker makes me happy :D
19:23 sri or helmet i guess
19:25 sri doubt this is very common though https://twitter.com/wiersdorf/status/692487786054705155
19:28 sri have yet to see a conference picture with a sticker
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21:08 vicash you can promote the tweet too
21:08 vicash so it shows up on various timelines
21:08 vicash it will cost some 50$ or so..
21:30 punter do minion workers get notified by pg pubsub when there's a new job, so there's no delay in starting it?
21:31 Grinnz_ they should yes
21:31 jberger there is also a timeout just in case the pubsub fails, but yes
21:32 punter Grinnz_, shouldn't the SQLite backend immediately search for new jobs as soon as the older one is finished? I see there's a delay of 1 second between jobs
21:33 jberger SQLite doesn't have pubsub
21:33 jberger it is emulated with a 1s sleep IIRC
21:33 Grinnz_ Mojo::SQLite does, but it's just an emulation, and that's not used for the minion backend
21:34 Grinnz_ it uses a 1s sleep yes
21:34 Grinnz_ but only if the immediate check fails
21:34 jberger punter: SQLite is not going to be high performance under any circumstances though
21:38 Grinnz_ actually it uses a sleep for the number of seconds specified to wait on the dequeue() method call
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21:49 punter Grinnz, I queued a minion task around 50 times, without any workers running, on a SQLite backend. This is the task's source: http://pastebin.com/jnPT4ZQJ and this is what I see when I decide to start running minion workers: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2F1LOVF-47ZdGlXOWhxdnRkWWc/view?usp=sharing
21:49 punter do you see the pause every second? 4 jobs every second, then a pause
21:50 punter have you tried this experiment?
21:50 punter Doesn't it show that jobs are not asked for as soon as the previous ones are done?
21:51 Grinnz_ that's up to the minion worker, which i believe is Minion::Command::worker
21:51 Grinnz_ Minion::Command::minion::worker rather
21:51 punter oh
21:53 Grinnz_ i believe this is what you're seeing https://metacpan.org/source/SRI/Minion-5.08/lib/Minion/Command/minion/worker.pm#L58-59
21:53 punter ah
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22:39 jberger regarding https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/982
22:39 jberger that's not a memory leak right, that is just the process claiming more memory
22:40 jberger a leak would be if that is looped a bunch of times and the process's memory keeps growing, right?
22:41 jberger I'm going to comment and provisionally close
22:47 jberger closed
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