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IRC log for #mojo, 2016-07-26

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01:12 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-PubSubHubbub-0.16 by AKRON https://metacpan.org/release/AKRON/Mojolicious-Plugin-PubSubHubbub-0.16
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01:37 * genio is finally catching up on Mr. Robot
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06:06 preaction you'd prefer the candidate who literally said he would ignore the NATO treaty agreements?
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06:37 Vandal yes, I would
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09:08 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-WebFinger-0.08 by AKRON https://metacpan.org/release/AKRON/Mojolicious-Plugin-WebFinger-0.08
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11:14 nic Grinnz: For you, does M::P::SetUserGroup work with morbo?
11:14 nic Actually, I think I now have enough info to file a bug report
11:15 nic My unproved suspicion is the next_tick doesn't work with morbo
11:15 batman nic: how can it work with morbo?
11:15 nic However, if that was true, there'd be flood of failure reports
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11:15 nic batman: I need it to not break morbo
11:16 nic Currently the app will just hang never giving back a response
11:16 nic if I edit the source file, morbo restarts and a result instantly arrives at the browser
11:17 nic So unless someone has a workaround, an app using SetUserGroup can never be run under morbo
11:18 nic actually, just thought of a workaround.  On the commandline can ensure that morbo runs as a non-root user
11:19 Lee nic: we use SetUserGroup, don't have a problem (although don't run morbo as root in dev)
11:19 batman hm... i don't see where SetUserGroup checks if it can change the user/group or not
11:19 Lee in fact, we have `if ( $< == 0 or $> == 0 ) {` in our App.pm to call SetUserGroup
11:20 nic I have a stricter line than that
11:20 batman ah! i see Grinnz_ has documented how to load the plugin in the synopsis :)
11:20 nic erm, no, I mine's logically equivalent
11:21 batman nic: do you run morbo as root? if so: why?
11:21 nic The documentation doesn't say not to
11:21 nic Grinnz: If the doc says that using that plugin means running morbo only as non-root user, then there's no bug :)
11:22 batman i would definitely say not to do any development as root :P
11:22 nic batman: that makes no sense.  The plugin only really works if invoked as 'root'.
11:22 batman that just sounds way too crazy to me.
11:22 nic ie the plugin is for environments where running as 'root' is what you're doing
11:22 batman i meant i would never run morbo as root.
11:23 nic yeah, you've defined an exception for one of the Mojo daemons, which is fine
11:24 batman do you use morbo in production?
11:24 nic on a production server, yes
11:24 batman wow.
11:24 Lee erk
11:24 Zen whyyy
11:25 batman does not make any sense to me. way to fragile for my production servers.
11:25 nic Because there are some functions that only work on a production/staging box
11:25 nic I think you're misundertanding what's been said
11:25 nic I did not say morbo is serving my production app
11:25 * batman out.
11:25 Lee oh, you're doing dev on prod
11:25 nic I said morbo is [also] running on the production/staging boxes
11:26 batman yeah. still the worst idea.
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11:26 nic how does morbo differ from daemon other than the auto-restarts?
11:28 Lee doesn't pre-fork
11:28 Lee (i think)
11:29 pink_mist afaik you get a lot worse performance with morbo
11:29 batman Nope. Same performance as a regular daemon process
11:29 nic I wouldn't word it like that.  morbo has a higher overhead (while it's running)
11:30 batman Why?
11:30 nic cos it's polling the fs of course :)
11:30 nic admittedly, that overhead has been shrunk significantly at least three times over the years
11:30 Lee nic: perhaps your issue is somehow related to https://github.com/Grinnz/Mojolicious-Plugin-SetUserGroup/commit/b262f3ccd4a375625c946531f7b9bbfec9cee67e ?
11:31 batman But that's the parent process. So yes: in total it use more CPU, but the daemon process (the child) still has he same code
11:31 nic Lee: That's separate
11:31 pink_mist batman: so morbo preforks?
11:31 nic I now see my issue as just a gap in the documentation
11:32 Lee kk
11:32 batman It forks, but not like ::PreFork
11:33 batman It only forks so the parent process can watch the files, while the child process is a "regular" ::Daemon process
11:36 nic maybe you're conflating two separate things
11:37 nic running any daemon in development mode on a production box is going to be higher risk
11:37 nic but that's separate from which daemon is serving the pages
11:41 batman well... i don't do "higher risk"
11:41 Lee batman: are you planning to be at YAPC::EU this year?
11:42 batman Lee: no :(
11:42 Lee :(
11:42 batman i'm in between jobs, so i can't make it
11:42 batman spent all my vacations
11:44 batman nic: are you starting morbo as root and then you want the child process to change to a user like "www-data" ?
11:49 nic no
11:49 nic I just want the app to work, regardless of which daemon is being used
11:49 batman can you pastebin the line where you load the plugin, with the if?
11:52 nic one sec; just trying to get a non-root version running
11:52 batman huh? thought you just said you didn't start morbo as root.
11:52 batman this is very confusing :(
11:59 nic $self->plugin(SetUserGroup => {user => 'zabbix', group => 'zabbix'}) unless $< and $>;
12:00 batman so please tell me how that plugin is loaded when your're not starting morbo as root.
12:00 nic btw, there's a bug in that 'unless' clause
12:01 nic batman: I can't go changing the app code when running it as a different user or under a different daemon; that's part of the point
12:01 batman what happens if you replace "and" with "or" ?
12:02 batman also, what's wrong with copy/pasting if $< == 0 or $> == 0; from the synopsis?
12:04 nic I think we're going off on a tangent :)
12:04 * batman gives up
12:06 nic The question is can I get the app to behave if morbo is always invoked as non-root.  People have helpfully said yes, so I'm off to pursue that
12:08 batman nic: so the reason why i give up is because you answered "no" to my question regarding if you ran the app as root or not.
12:08 batman fyi
12:09 nic you sound frustrated, and for that I'm sorry; I just didn't see where the gap in our communication was
12:10 nic btw, I ansered 'no' to "want the child process to change"
12:10 batman i'm frustrated because i don't understand you. it doesn't mean you have to be sorry. it happens. (no worries)
12:12 nic I suspect the misunderstanding happened at the beginning.  I wasn't asking to get the plugin to do something clever under morbo; I was just asking that the plugin not break my app under morbo
12:12 batman yeah. that's really not very informative.
12:13 nic for example, I would love it if the plugin was able to detect when not to try changing user, and in those cases did nothing
12:14 batman that seems to very well documented in the synopsis.
12:14 nic so if you're already running as the target user (and group) do nothing
12:14 nic so if next_tick isn't going to work, do nothing
12:14 nic but I'm happy that there's a simple enough workaround I should have thought of at the beginning :)
12:16 nic I strongly disagree about how well documentated that is, but I'm happy to disagree on that point
12:17 batman "However, if the application is not started as root, it will most likely fail to change credentials. So, you should only set the user/group when the application is started as root."
12:17 batman i think that makes sense ^
12:17 batman especially combined with the examples in the synopsis
12:17 batman i don't think Grinnz_ minds if you can make it better
12:18 nic And does that sentence tell you anything about what goes wrong when you _do_ start it as root?
12:19 batman no. but i don't see how you have told us either. maybe you said something about it before i joined the conversation.
12:19 batman i've only heard "morbo + setusergroup doesn't work".
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12:45 elrey nic: still struggling with the shared functionality thing. do you know any example of a mojo-based app sharing functionality with a different regular app by a mojo plugin, or any other way? (theyre on the same box of course)
12:48 nic elrey: As diegok said, if you're able to describe the shared functionality, we might be able to contribute ideas.  At the moment the subject is too open
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12:58 vicash elrey: from what i understand you want to share functionality between a mojo-app and a non-mojo-app ? if that's  the case the mojo plugin is not the way to go. if the shared functionality is same code, then decouple the shared code into its own module and install it on the system before installing your apps, i.e. make it a dependency for both. if the shared functionality is something runtime like shared I/O handles or something lik
13:00 vicash elrey: this 3rd service can be very easily created using Minion where your Minion::worker will run the shared service and both your apps can post Minion requests.. Minion can be used in non-mojo-apps
13:00 vicash elrey: this way you don't have to create a special API but can re-use the Minion API for performing the tasks needed
13:01 batman elrey: https://github.com/kraih/mojo-pg/tree/master/examples/blog/lib/Blog <-- see how the app i split up in Model:: and Controller::
13:01 batman the shared code is in Model:: which doesn't care about $c or $tx or any other web stuff.
13:06 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-OpenAPI-0.05 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojolicious-Plugin-OpenAPI-0.05
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14:06 Parham Hi all. Does anyone know of a book which teaches Perl through building an application with Mojolicious? I'm new to Perl and would like to learn Perl in the context of web development. A book like "Modern Perl" is too dry for me. :-(
14:07 nic The only book I know is bpmedley's ebook
14:08 pink_mist I don't think there is such a book, no ... they all assume you already know perl I think
14:09 pink_mist or else they aren't focused on webdev, much less mojo
14:09 perlpilot "teaching Perl by building a Mojo app" doesn't sound quite right to me anyway
14:10 Lee mojo is very idiomatic, so there's a debate on whether or not using it as a learning exercise is a good idea
14:10 Parham Lee: I would imagine using an idiomatic framework would be good for getting people up and running with a language?
14:10 nic I'd recommend it for learning perl, and webdev (but not programming from scratch ofc)
14:11 Parham I mean, the Perl idioms are probably much more important and harder to learn than the Perl syntax, right?
14:11 nic Parham: You can pick up a lot by working through the guides.  That should be pretty fun too
14:11 Lee Parham: IME some perl idioms scare away even some experienced perl devs
14:11 Lee but yes, pros/cons as always
14:12 Parham nic: I've been programming in PHP for more than 5 years, so this context is more... learning friendly for me.
14:12 nic that was understood/assumed ;)
14:12 nic Parham: do you have experience with any php web frameworks?
14:13 Parham nic: Yeah. I have always worked with frameworks.
14:13 Parham nic: The problem is not understanding Mojo itself. The guides are fine.
14:13 nic which web frameworks?
14:14 Parham nic: The problem is that sometimes I see a piece of code that I don't know. I have no idea why it works -- it seems weird. Like the qw(...) syntax. And, I'm afraid that there would be a lot about Perl itself that I would not learn, and in this guide, as you guys said, knowledge of Perl is assumed.
14:14 Parham nic: Symfony, mostly.
14:14 nic cool
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14:32 PopeFelix re: the problems with Mojo::URL::userinfo I was having - in Mojo::UserAgent::Mockable::Serializer, I'm storing URLs stringified. So I'll have to modify that.
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14:49 Grinnz nic, the plugin is only intended for use with prefork or hypnotoad. it doesn't serve a purpose to run it under other deployment methods
14:50 nic I wasn't looking for purpose, only non-breakage.  ie benign
14:51 nic you're not seriously saying the app should be modified if you want to (temporarily) run it under morbo?
14:51 batman Grinnz: why doesn't it work under the other daemons?
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14:52 Grinnz it might work under other daemons, there's no reason to do that
14:52 nic anyway, the tldr is it can be benign as long as you always use non-root with morbo
14:53 nic A sentence in the docs makes the problem disappear    \o/
14:53 Grinnz what should be added to the docs?
14:54 Grinnz the plugin has no way of knowing which deployment method it's running under, so it's up to your logic to determine when to run it
14:54 nic "Avoid mysterious expensive non-functioning of your app by never running morbo as root when employing this plugin"
14:54 nic there
14:54 Grinnz that's oversimplifying the issue
14:55 * nic <3 simple
14:55 Grinnz i mean it's misleading
14:55 cfedde the TLDR does not need to dive into the details.
14:56 Grinnz it's perfectly fine to run morbo as root and use the plugin if you use some other logic to determine whether to run it
14:57 cfedde "This code runs on a computer. Computers are known to have complex interactions. Consider that before commiting to using this code."
14:58 perlpilot Grinnz: is it perfectly fine to run morbo as root?  ;)
14:59 nic yes.  get over it
14:59 Grinnz on a dev network sure
15:00 cfedde your integration test should confirm if such privlege is needed.  It seems with containers and other forms of virtualization we have slid back into the "everything is root" mode of thought.
15:00 perlpilot levity doesn't translate well over IRC either it seems
15:00 cfedde <Grin>nz :-)
15:01 nic cfedde: if you're not in a run-as-root env then this plugin has no use for you
15:01 cfedde nic: cool!
15:02 * cfedde goes back to the day job
15:03 Grinnz nic, what exactly breaks when you run it under morbo anyway?
15:03 nic the plugin is v useful, but currently needs quite a bit of external protection to stop it snookering your app in a fairly obtuse way
15:03 nic Grinnz: the browser never receives a response
15:04 nic (with chrome I think it was going to wait forever)
15:05 Grinnz I guess without the separate manager process, the different user/group can't accept the connections?
15:06 nic Luckily for me, one of my colleagues had a commit where the only change was adding that plugin; otherwise I'd probably still be hunting for why it broke
15:06 cfedde One of many good reasons to commit early, commit often.
15:06 Grinnz I'll do some testing and add something to the docs, not sure what yet
15:07 nic super.  thank
15:07 nic ..s
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15:20 batman nic: which port do you listen to?
15:21 batman As in: what is the exact command you use when you start morbo
15:23 nic dep/bin/morbo -w tmpl -w lib -l 'http://*:8081' bin/myapp.qa1 &>>log/staging.log &
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15:24 batman Ok... Thought maybe you tried to listen to 80 or 443...
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15:27 batman And you're already root when you try to run that command? Do you see any error messages in the log?
15:28 batman Also, what happens if you run with MOJO_DAEMON_DEBUG=1? Do you see the incoming request?
15:29 batman What about if you run it as "daemon" instead of using morbo? Any difference?
15:29 nic I think it worked using 'daemon' and it definitely worked using 'myapp get /'
15:30 * batman waits for more definitive answers
15:31 nic afraid I'm an hour late for going home and need to hammer through a couple of work things
15:32 nic (I'm not seeing anything more to investigate cos I'm happy with the workaround)
15:33 nic just discovered a major company is forcing us to login over http and GET, but with a string of hidden parameters.  It's like being back in 1995
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15:48 nic oh, Grinnz, just in case you're wanting to look deeper and missed where I mentioned it earlier...
15:49 nic If the browser is sitting waiting for a response, and you trigger morbo to restart, the response then goes immediately to the browser
15:50 Grinnz_ yes, that's just how morbo works
15:50 sri hahahaha (note the tweet before it) https://twitter.com/thenib/status/757790230350929921
15:50 sri what a time to be alive
15:51 Grinnz_ hah
15:53 genio ugh.  2016 is broken.  Can we restart it, please?
15:55 perlpilot genio: does that mean we'll have to relive with all of those people dying.   I don't think I want to do that.
15:57 genio perlpilot: Nah.  We just need to unplug it, then wait for 45 seconds before plugging it back in.
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17:16 tempire #allthejobs
17:17 sri !
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17:25 sri phone interviews in english are gonna be fun :S
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17:26 tempire They're not so bad. I've done them many times ;)
17:28 sri can i hire you to do them for me? :)
17:28 tempire I want a commission
17:28 _dave_ https://youtu.be/fh2WcTcoLBc - and now, a homeless robot
17:30 tempire of cupcakes
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19:14 nic I think I've just fallen in love https://www.zingcharts.com/
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19:32 dexteruk Hi everyone can i ask a stupid question, im using mojo to push information to a number of servers, this is triggered by a curl client, but the curl client is timing out before all the posts have been completed
19:33 dexteruk I think i should use non-blocking for this process
19:33 punter or maybe minion?
19:33 dexteruk but is there a way to send an 200 OK to the client even before the process has finished
19:33 nic People just waltz in here thinking it's ok to ask stupid questions, but then get oh so uppity when I provide stupid answers
19:34 dexteruk Well its only stupid to those who dont know the answer
19:35 dexteruk when you have amazing programmer out there, this is probably a stupid question, from someone who would not consider themselves an amazing programmer
19:35 preaction you can start sending headers before you're done with preparing the body, yes.
19:36 punter I don't think that was his question
19:37 dexteruk in the old day, you could call a perl script using system to run the process in the background
19:38 dexteruk and the parent would not wait for the child
19:38 dexteruk it would just assum its done and finish
19:38 preaction you can still do that, but there are better ways. perhaps Mojo::IOLoop::ForkCall?
19:39 preaction most things of this nature assume that you want to know whether the request succeeded or failed
19:40 dexteruk in my case we dont care, if the information is not found on the other servers it will be pulled form the database
19:41 dexteruk its just the overheads of pushing something and storing in cache, is cheaper than reading from the database as these tables are very large
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19:55 batman nic: that was a very weird reply... i think i would be offended by that.
19:55 cpan_mojo Mojolicious-Plugin-OpenAPI-0.07 by JHTHORSEN https://metacpan.org/release/JHTHORSEN/Mojolicious-Plugin-OpenAPI-0.07
20:02 _dave_ nic: Why are stupid questions not ok?
20:09 nic Is there such a thing as a stupid question?  I was making a joke on "can i ask a stupid question" -- I've never seen a stupid question on here, and I don't imagine asking one would cause any harm, whereas I have seen stupid answers and those can indeed cause problems
20:09 nic Yet nobody is polite enough to ask "Can I provide a stupid answer?"
20:11 nic anyway, thanks for pointing that out, batman
20:11 nic dexteruk: I didn't mean any offence -- it was a badly delivered joke
20:13 Grinnz_ dexteruk: it doesn't matter if you think it might seem stupid; questions in here that may seem obvious to us often lead to clarifications in docs or examples
20:13 _dave_ I was wondering if that was a joke ... I usually put a winky after one to indicate the tone :D
20:14 Grinnz_ I think it was a bit poorly delivered but the self deprecating part seemed clearly a joke to me :P
20:15 batman nic: thanks for clearing that out!
20:15 batman nic++
20:15 Grinnz_ on the other hand, when someone is repeatedly asking questions answered straightforwardly by the guides, it's a bit of a waste of time :)
20:16 ribasushi nic: does Mojo::DOM support MySQL? (there, stupid question for you ;)
20:16 Grinnz_ yes! as long as you're storing your xml in a blob somewhere
20:16 batman ribasushi: not yet. but in mojo 8.0 it will.
20:16 batman guess that was a stupid answer...
20:16 * batman stops
20:16 Grinnz_ :)
20:16 ribasushi you laugh, but ~5 years ago someone *did* ask on #moose (iirc) whether Moose works with MySQL (not making it up)
20:17 Grinnz_ ribasushi: there are also plugins connecting all these things, for reasons unknown
20:18 batman Grinnz_: yeah... i find those plugins confusing :/
20:18 _dave_ It's difficult with human communication to discern genuine confusion from willful stupidity
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20:19 Grinnz_ mostly overengineering, in this case
20:20 batman dexteruk: did you get the answer you were looking for...?
20:22 dexteruk batman: i think using write_chunk('') should send an OK to the curl client allowing me to process the subroutine in my own time
20:23 batman dexteruk: i just use $c->write() in my CGI plugin: https://metacpan.org/source/JHTHORSEN/Mojolicious-Plugin-CGI-0.34/lib/Mojolicious/Plugin/CGI.pm#L195
20:25 dexteruk Guys thanks for keeping your messages real, its very difficult for someone who uses perl as a tool, to communicate the right language even find out where to start searching for the right answers
20:25 dexteruk Im not a programmer, but i love mojo
20:25 batman what does "keeping your messages real" mean?
20:25 dexteruk being honest
20:25 dexteruk but helpful
20:25 batman ah :)
20:25 batman cool!
20:26 batman glad that's your impression. means we didn't mess up, hehe
20:27 dexteruk this is the first IRC chat room with geeks that really make wannabe programmers like me feel welcome
20:29 batman dexteruk: if your code doesn't work, then please show a small snippet of the code that you have and we'll try to take it from there. (using a pastebin)
20:36 dexteruk batman: got it working thanks
20:36 batman dexteruk++
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21:04 sri yay, i got a few retweets, that's nice
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