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IRC log for #mojo, 2016-09-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:17 jberger Starcraft 1, still a good game
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06:04 mpapec batman: didn't go through mojo::redis2 changes but noticed with v0.26 that requests can end up in reversed order
06:04 mpapec ie. https://gist.github.com/mpapec/e07793c9878d9e46452688a52f51a3fb
06:05 mpapec is this expected behavior?
06:05 batman mpapec: yes.
06:05 mpapec uh
06:06 batman subscribe and publish does not happen in the same connection, so the order is undefined the way your code is written
06:06 batman you need to wait for subscribe to be successful before you publish
06:07 mpapec ok, so doing above could be written is two separate ioloop steps?
06:07 mpapec s/doing/code/
06:07 batman yeah. but subscribe in the first delay step and publish in the second
06:08 batman but = put
06:08 mpapec of course
06:08 mpapec so this behavior only applies to publish subscribe and not to other commands
06:09 batman it applies to any command that require a new connection
06:09 mpapec tnx
06:10 batman the "basic" atomic methods does not require a new connection, like set, get, hgetall, smembers, ...
06:11 mpapec great
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10:57 sri jberger: i think starcraft 1 will get remastered
11:11 sri so weird to see ruby reinventing perl ithreads
11:11 sri http://www.atdot.net/fp_store/f.iu25do/file.2016_rubykaigi.pdf
11:12 sri but i guess they are doing it better
11:13 sri since you get to choose your tradeoff, more memory use or less parallel
11:18 sri wonder if ithreads could be salvaged with a similar solution
11:35 jberger I don't have time to read all those slides, they are pretty dense, but do I see a GIL?
11:40 sri yes
11:41 sri they have a new concept called guild
11:41 sri each guild is basically an ithread
11:41 sri and each guild can contain more threads which are protected by a GIL
11:42 sri and you can change ownership of objects from one guild to another through a communication channel
11:44 sri so two guilds cannot access the same data at the same time, and run truly parallel
11:44 sri threads inside a guild can share data, but there will be locks and they might not run parallel because they are blocking each other
11:45 sri you get to decide the tradeoff you need
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12:12 mishanti1 So where exactly are events in Mojolicious defined? Mojo::IOLoop::Server says it emits 'accept' and inherit the rest from Mojo::EventEmitter. The latter says it emits 'error'. Yet somehow my Mojo::IOLoop::Server has a 'read'-event.
12:13 mishanti1 Any pointers as to where I could look? Been reading the documentation but have so far been unable to track the events down.
12:13 mishanti1 PEBKAC
12:13 mishanti1 Never mind.
12:15 sri all events are documented in their respective classes, but you know that now :)
12:15 mishanti1 Hehe. Yeah, just had one glitch in locating the correct class.
12:15 sri hmm, just saw someone tweeting this http://mojolicious.org/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/FAQ#Will-my-code-magically-become-non-blocking-with-Mojolicious
12:16 sri and i guess we could mention subprocesses there
12:16 sri since they kinda do make your blocking code magically non-blocking
12:17 mishanti1 One thing that I don't understand from reading the Mojo::IOLoop::Stream docs: is 'read' emitted once the client is done writing, or at some other random time?
12:17 sri whenever data arrives
12:18 mishanti1 Ok. So what is the established recommendation for how to wait for data to be somewhat completely received?
12:18 sri that's not part of the socket api
12:19 sri it's why you design protocols like HTTP ;p
12:19 sri or websockets for that matter
12:19 pink_mist mishanti1: you could wait until the remote end closes the socket, then you can be relatively certain that all the data it intended to send you has been sent =)
12:21 sri like here https://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/master/lib/Mojo/IOLoop/Subprocess.pm#L39-L47
12:21 sri (even though it's a pipe in that case)
12:22 mishanti1 Makes sense. :) Thanks sri and pink_mist . The example looks to be pretty much what I am after.
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12:27 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vilnv
12:27 good_news_everyon mojo/master 87b7360 Sebastian Riedel: mention subprocesses in FAQ
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12:31 sri wonder if the subprocess method should have a note like "For greater scalability requirements you might also want to consider the L<Minion> job queue."
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12:42 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vilCk
12:42 good_news_everyon mojo/master e2d2956 Sebastian Riedel: you should use both
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13:34 jamesaxl ello
13:34 jamesaxl hello
13:34 purl privet, jamesaxl.
13:35 jamesaxl purl, privet
13:35 purl privet is the bane of Shoalhaven or an aggressive environmental weed requiring control to halt its spread and prevent further degradation or Ligustrum Vulgare, often grown as a hedge
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13:57 jberger jamesaxl: purl is a bot by the way
13:58 jberger hi
13:58 jberger botsnack
13:58 purl :)
13:59 jamesaxl jberger, I see, thank you
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14:45 jehdin Well...that's new. IETF is deprecating DNS "any" queries.
14:47 lluad IETF? Or Cloudflare?
14:47 jehdin https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dnsop-refuse-any-00
14:47 jehdin Cloudflare is just trying to stay "bleeding edge"
14:47 lluad Yeah, just a draft.
14:48 jehdin all because of DNS amp attacks.
14:48 jehdin Which really puts me in a bind.
14:48 lluad How so?
14:48 lluad ANY is only really useful for diagnostics work (where it's critical).
14:48 jehdin at $dayjob, I'm investigating domains for abuse
14:49 lluad Ah. Me too.
14:49 lluad (Hence my "well, fuck cloudflare" attitude :) )
14:49 jehdin Haha
14:50 jehdin I've had that same attitude towards Cloudflare for a while now.
14:50 jehdin Though I admit - they've gotten a lot better.
14:52 mpapec can GIL be a good thing?
14:52 lluad As in a global interpreter lock?
14:53 mpapec yeah
14:53 mpapec sri posted ruby proposal for it
14:53 mpapec (it's guild actually)
14:55 sri of course GIL can be a good thing, who wants race conditions by default
14:55 mpapec please comment on helper for mojo flow control
14:55 mpapec https://gist.github.com/mpapec/434884dcf7094468096017ad4e05860e#file-test-pl-L3-L14
14:57 lluad GIL where G doesn't mean global. Seems like a decent concurrency retrofit, given the ruby environment.
14:59 mpapec there are elixir aspirations in the docs
15:00 sri yea, think both python and ruby now have fine-grained locking
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15:01 sri (meaning mri and cpython)
15:01 jehdin Oh well...I expect implementing a rejection of DNS "any" requests will be right behind BCP38
15:02 lluad Depends on the politics. There's no good technical argument for it, but the IETF is seldom about good technical arguments.
15:02 mpapec sri: did you look at twister or tornado?
15:03 jehdin for now I'm going to assume that rejecting ANY requests from an authoritative ns is akin to using anonymizer services for domain registration.
15:03 mpapec that are real-time web frameworks for python
15:03 jehdin ./me gets the idea to write a perl script to query every possible DNS record
15:05 sri Mojo::IOLoop was inspired by tornado back when it was still new
15:05 sri that's where the ioloop name comes from
15:05 lluad Or at least the dozen or so that are ever seen in the wild. Not a bad plan. To be mildly ontopic, AnyEvent::DNS plays very nicely with mojo for doing that in a web app.
15:06 jehdin Oh, snap
15:06 jehdin That's extremely helpful - thanks lluad
15:07 mpapec sri: cool
15:08 mpapec so basically they share common concepts
15:10 lluad jehdin: https://gist.github.com/wttw/3ea332fa59ed394f091b2c6fcf0db3df is a snippet of code I use for DNS resolution at tools.wordtothewise.com. Might be a useful sample.
15:11 jehdin Aw hell and damnation.
15:13 jehdin lluad: Definitely helpful stuff there.
15:20 sri i suppose this is a WONTFIX? https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/995
15:22 Grinnz that would also break if using Test2 which defaults to utf-8 encoding
15:22 sri well, that's stupid
15:22 Grinnz but probably not unless Test::Mojo uses it itself
15:22 Grinnz so nvm
15:23 sri wait a minute
15:23 sri you mean Test2 does the same we do
15:23 Grinnz i think so
15:24 Grinnz https://metacpan.org/pod/Test2::Plugin::UTF8
15:24 sri uhh
15:24 Grinnz it actually sets the output streams
15:24 sri that's stupid again ;p
15:24 sri yea
15:24 sri it changes global defaults
15:27 sri allright https://github.com/kraih/mojo/issues/995#issuecomment-245635544
15:27 sri anyone who wants changes can make a proposal
15:30 sri just think about how you'd handle "mojo get example.com #unicode-element text" and "./myapp.pl get example.com #unicode-element text"
15:31 sri in one you control the global Perl settings, in the other a user app
15:32 Grinnz it's not a straightforward problem
15:34 sri oh right
15:34 sri also consider CGI
15:35 sri and PSGI environments
15:35 sri where STDERR/STDOUT might have weird special behavior
15:36 sri (in case you were considering to propose for Mojo::Base to switch on UTF-8 encoding for STDERR/STDOUT)
15:39 sri also fun "mojo get example.com/foo.tar.gz > foo.tar.gz"
15:47 nicomen isn't the real issue what eventually gets sent to Test::More->can?
15:48 nicomen perhaps one should be able to tell Test::More what the encoding of the descriptions are expected to be?
15:48 sri btw. if anyoen wants to force the issue, please feel free to open a github issue with all the information brought up so far
15:49 nicomen that should solve the current issue of: $ perl -wle 'use Test::More; use utf8; pass("←↓→"); done_testing;'
15:49 nicomen Wide character in print at /usr/share/perl5/Test2/Formatter/TAP.pm line 105.
15:49 nicomen ok 1 - ←↓→
15:49 sri i wouldn't mind keeping it open for as long as it takes to reach consensus on a solution
15:51 sri nicomen: tests are just one problem
15:52 sri nicomen: next you have command line apps
15:52 sri nicomen: and then different deployment environments for CGI/PSGI
15:53 sri nicomen: also, do not forget differences between Test and Test2
15:53 sri which i actually had no clue about
15:53 sri honestly, i think this is a problem p5p should solve for us
15:54 sri establish best practices for this we can follow
15:54 Grinnz @nicomen that's one of the reasons for Test2, so you have the option to set that
15:54 Grinnz with Test::More you really don't
15:56 sri think the most stupid thing is that you can't even test for what STDERR/STDOUT are doing because there can be all kinds of perlio layers attached
15:56 nicomen "interesting"
15:56 purl "interesting" is *not* a Chinese curse. I'm on a one-bot campaign to rid the world of this urban legend.
15:56 nicomen specially the p5p should solve it for us solution, with probably means never :-/
15:58 nicomen sri: so it is correct to say that Mojolicious already took did a choice, of always delivering utf8-encoded data to all IOs?
15:58 nicomen -took
15:58 sri yes
15:58 sri because we happen to know when we want to
15:59 nicomen sure, I think it's a valid choice
15:59 sri like in the get command, we know what is unicode text and what is binary data
15:59 sri now that i think about it
16:00 sri putting STDERR/STDOUT into anything else than binary mode is stupid
16:00 sri :)
16:00 sri because in most apps you'll have text and binary data
16:01 jberger Test2 came to some agreement about using # signs in test descriptions btw, so that problem was dodged
16:01 sri and the app has to decide what is what
16:01 sri since once again perl does not have a binary/text flag on scalars
16:01 jberger and with the Test2 plugin for utf8 output I don't think we should handle anything like that on our side
16:02 jberger maybe Exodist has an opinion?
16:02 sri i don't use the word stupid very often, but it feels right here ;p
16:03 nicomen I agree, the specific bug IMHO is a bug in Test::More, which there is a "fix" for already with: Test::More::UTF8
16:03 sri in the end it should be solved in perl core by adding binary/text flags to scalars
16:03 jberger that would be so nice
16:03 jberger +1
16:03 purl 1
16:04 * jberger pushes purl down the stairs
16:04 * purl dodges and laughs as jberger loses balance and crashes down the stairs.
16:04 Grinnz sri: all of Test2 output is text
16:04 jberger oh I missed purl so much
16:07 sri no point discussing Test2 anyway, it's years away
16:08 sri 2020 maybe
16:09 pink_mist it is? I thought it was what Test-Simple was actually using deep down in its guts already
16:09 sri first shipped with 5.15.1 i think
16:09 Grinnz it is, but this is the Test2::Suite interface
16:09 sri umm
16:09 sri 5.25.1
16:09 Grinnz the Test::Simple/Test::More backend is compatible to the old Test::Builder setup
16:10 sri so, it will be in the 2017 release of 5.26
16:11 sri which means we'll be depending on Test::More behavior for many more years
16:14 jberger the backward compatibility is REALLY good
16:14 jberger Exodist++
16:15 sri unicode in perl is hard, lets go play overwatch
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16:23 Grinnz sri: oh I think I see what he's saying in the ticket
16:23 Grinnz json_is encodes the $desc to UTF-8, but json_like does not if it is provided to the method
16:25 sri yea, he won't like my reaction though ;p
16:25 sri which is to make all encode consistently
16:25 sri imagine it will break more for him even :S
16:25 Grinnz yeah, but it would at least be consistent :D
16:26 sri yea -.-
16:26 Grinnz the only real solution there is to ditch the use open, and encode any descriptions you're passing to Test::More directly
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16:54 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vi8e2
16:54 good_news_everyon mojo/master 8fdf806 Sebastian Riedel: fix a few test description encoding bugs in Test::Mojo
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18:15 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vi8OR
18:15 good_news_everyon mojo/master 7a67c61 Sebastian Riedel: mention the Linux Subsystem for Windows
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18:18 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vi8ON
18:18 good_news_everyon mojo/master 728646a Sebastian Riedel: better title
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18:21 jberger sri: "Linux Subsystem for Windows"? I thought it was "Windows Subsystem for Linux", thus WSL
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18:23 sri -.-
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18:23 good_news_everyon [mojo] kraih pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vi839
18:23 good_news_everyon mojo/master cf8fd09 Sebastian Riedel: fix typo in FAQ
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18:24 sri glad batman made a script for updating the live docs
18:24 sri updating docs is so much more satisfying that way
18:25 batman sri: you're very welcome :)
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18:54 Grinnz http://appleplugs.com/
18:55 * genio is leery of that domain name
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18:55 Grinnz it's sfw :P
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19:00 genio so you say!  http://appleplugs.com/img/animation-1.
19:00 genio gif
19:00 genio ooops. stupid enter key
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20:26 * sri installs macOS Sierra
20:29 genio I'll just wait until the 20th I think
20:34 Grinnz i'll install that the same time i upgrade to windows 10 👀
20:35 sri already finished, auper smooth update
20:35 sri s/a/s/
20:36 sri siri is fun
20:36 sri guess i'll now just hit the siri key and say "open Chrome"
20:36 sri "go to reddit"
20:36 sri "show me cat pictures"
20:37 sri "find the latest memes"
20:38 jberger "siri, am I a robot?"
20:41 genio the personal assistants aren't something I'll use unless they're entirely contained in my device.  I only use siri to set alarms for me.
20:42 genio but sending out my request to yet another service before doing what I asked, etc. isn't something I'm keen on.
20:42 sri i'll prolly get bored of it soon
20:42 Grinnz I generally only use google now for setting reminders, yeah
20:42 Grinnz and mostly because i haven't found the actual interface to set reminders :P
20:42 sri hahahaha
20:42 purl LOLCON 4 reached.
20:43 sri actually, i do the same... and i have no idea where the ui is either -.-
20:47 sri guess i now have siri, cortana and google now :o
20:47 sri couldn't actually get cortana to work though
20:48 genio I turned that completely off
20:54 sri ah, perl 5.24.0 doesn't install on Sierra
20:54 sri Time::HiRes fails its tests
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21:00 genio did you remember to re-agree to the terms for the command line compiler?
21:00 genio oh, stupid question.  if you're at the tests already, then of course you did.
21:02 sri ohoh, 5.10.1 fails on more tests
21:04 sri hmm https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ad59fd8393860fb6ca0c0d0d49dbb713
21:04 sri very odd
21:05 sri summary says /ext/POSIX/t/posix.t failed, but looking at the log it says ok
21:06 pink_mist might be it exited with an error after tests completed?
21:07 sri possibly
21:07 sri but still, doesn't Test::Harness say fail in those cases?
21:08 pink_mist is it using Test::Harness? I'm unsure if perl's own tests do
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21:24 sri after using f.lux for 3 days, i think it actually works
21:24 sri much easier to get sleepy
21:42 Sebbe f.lux is great.
21:42 Sebbe Been using it for years now. Every time I disable it, it hurts my eyes.
21:49 sri trying to hack my sleep schedule with it
21:53 sri so far the only downside with f.lux has been that i can't see which links i've visited before on reddit anymore
21:56 mishanti1 sri: Guess you'll just have to click them all.
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22:17 sri Grinnz: even seagull can't solo queue today!
22:17 Grinnz hah, is he losing?
22:18 sri just watch the first match from today
22:18 sri that's solo queue life
22:19 Grinnz sri: someone else complaining about module reviews now, and it's about s.c.o (I didn't even know they showed reviews anywhere) http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.module-authors/2016/09/msg10790.html
22:19 sri only streamer i've seen who can make it work is surefour, but he's a god who can tell everyone on voice chat what to do every single match
22:20 Grinnz yeah as much as seagull talks on stream, he doesn't really direct teammates that much
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22:20 sri Grinnz: omg, not linda
22:20 * sri nopes out
22:21 Grinnz and especially with the pros, you can hear them get exasperated when teammates need to be told what to do in seemingly "simple" situations
22:21 Grinnz sri: lol
22:33 genio I tried to reply nicely and point her to the right places.  Maybe I shouldn't have if she's a known problem causer
22:35 genio heh. if I'd only waited about 1 more minute before hitting send, I would have seen your reply and not bothered. :)
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22:38 jberger seems like a fairly cogent email from her though
22:39 sri just wait
22:40 jberger oh, I know
22:40 genio I guess there have been many past emails from her?
22:41 Grinnz don't know about all that, but https://metacpan.org/release/P is "interesting"
22:42 genio oh.
22:43 genio That's... yea. interesting.
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22:48 sri i think linda is banned from p5p
22:58 haarg yes
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23:03 ThePostar614 Best 3D XXX Games And More http://www.mysexgames.org/
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23:06 pink_mist :/ bloody spam
23:07 Grinnz the trouble with IRC and email; no account(ability)
23:22 spicyjack Grinnz: you could mark the channel invite/voice only
23:22 spicyjack Grinnz: but that sort of takes away from the "social" aspect
23:22 Grinnz yeah, it's not an expected thing on IRC
23:22 Grinnz #fedora on freenode does that, though
23:22 Grinnz it's mostly a pain unless you've set up SASL so you can authenticate before joining channels
23:28 pink_mist this place doesn't get _nearly_ the amount of spam for that to be worth the effort
23:28 sri think i couldn't join #postgresql without authenticating
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23:39 pink_mist nice, finally the yapc eu talks are being uploaded as separate videos instead of just the couple of huge videos that were there at first :P
23:45 zivester joined #mojo

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