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IRC log for #mojo, 2016-12-06

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09:51 sri umm, so xdg is now the cpan dictator? http://lists.scsys.co.uk/pipermail/dbix-class/2016-December/012493.html
09:51 sri who gave xdg the power to make such decisions?
10:03 sri https://twitter.com/kraih/status/806075613358473216
10:04 sri obvious followup https://twitter.com/kraih/status/806076366592606208
10:05 osfabibisi sri: it rather looks like he's submitted proposals and offered a vote, doesn't it?
10:06 Lee there's also been a rather long/large discussion about this on the mailing list
10:07 osfabibisi "Acting in my capacity as an administrator for PAUSE," from his post on http://www.dagolden.com/
10:07 osfabibisi that doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me
10:07 sri umm
10:08 sri "I will tally and announce results shortly thereafter.  I will be sole arbiter of any voting irregularities.  Once announced, I will transfer namespace permissions accordingly and consider the matter resolved."
10:08 sri he forced the vote and will take action after 72 hours
10:09 sri it's not an "offer"
10:17 sri there have been multiple occasions in the past where i had to stand up to a mob of angry users on the mailing-list, should they have been able to get a pause admin involved and vote me out?
10:18 sri there is no way i would have gotten past the backwards compatibility discussions in the early days of mojolicious
10:19 sri this is open source, if you don't like what the maintainer of a project does with it, you make your own fork with a new name, you don't steal the project
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10:21 osfabibisi yes, I agree there could be failure modes
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10:22 sri what should have happened is more permission levels be added to pause
10:22 sri first-come > maint > co-maint
10:22 sri and mst should have kept first-come
10:23 sri i should have kept first-come for Catalyst
10:23 osfabibisi DBIC has a strong community though, it does look like there's a legitimate conflict here, and it's not a terrible thing that there is an administrator who is willing to step up and *organize* a resolution
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10:25 sri trying to mediate is one thing, taking over control another
10:26 sri if ribasushi wants to destroy DBIx::Class it's his right as first-come holder
10:27 osfabibisi I'm not sure I feel strongly about the value of that "right" tbh
10:27 osfabibisi I see your theoretical point
10:27 osfabibisi but it doesn't feel especially healthy or useful
10:28 sri wondering if i could take mojolicious off cpan in protest
10:29 osfabibisi sri: a lot of devs in *your* community respect you and rely on your software.  Ultimately, that's who you'd hurt.
10:29 * osfabibisi wanders off to daily standup
10:29 Lee sri: your thoughts seem at odds with the whole Mojo::DOM thing a while back
10:30 sri Lee: how so?
10:30 Lee IIRC you didn't like the fork of Mojo::DOM
10:30 sri of course not, it was a hostile fork
10:31 sri but i'll fight for Grinnz's right to do hostile forks
10:32 sri now we have a friendly fork, which i like more
10:36 Lee my point is that it's not as simple as "you make a new fork", right? especially with ecosystem critical namespaces
10:36 Lee s/a new/your own/ # slight misquote there
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11:14 sri suppose mojolicious is protected by the license
11:16 sri actually had discussions about licenses and modified code when i was visiting SUSE HQ
11:16 sri apparently GPL allows modified versions to be distributed without requiring the name to be changed, while artistic does now
11:16 sri s/now/not/
11:18 sri yea, DBIx::Class is dual licensed, so not protected
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11:34 exp-innit is there a nice succcint way for a helper to render a template? i'm building something to render a small search block
11:35 exp-innit can i get away with just $c->render in the helper too?
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11:53 sri yes
11:57 exp-innit sri: looks like render_to_string if i want the helper to return the template, but that looks good
12:03 sri but seriously folks, always go artistic license only for your perl code from now on
12:04 sri guess i might write a blog post about that when i have some time
12:04 sri once xdg has taken away DBIx::Class from ribasushi
12:15 sri does anyone know how pause admins are organized?
12:16 sri is ANDK just adding them arbitrarily, or is someone else in control?
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13:55 sri literally everyone i've talked to about the Pause admin situation https://66.media.tumblr.com/da661e7343427129a32a4c2ea1117bcd/tumblr_nw8dghC3Kc1s94y8do1_500.png
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14:07 genio read the entire email chain.  I feel like your ire of this situation is misplaced as it was brought on by the firstcome who asked them to step in and then failed to do anything requested.
14:07 genio hating an "establishment" is one thing, but in this case, it's just unfounded
14:07 jberger This particular situation is even weirder because riba took first come after expressly stating that mst had the right to take it back
14:08 jberger Yes there needs to be another pause perm level
14:08 genio that's only one of the oddities.  again, reread the entire chain.  And let's all please stop bashing Perl and PAUSE in public forums such as Twitter
14:08 jberger But in its absence riba was given it out of expedience
14:08 genio 2016 just needs to end already
14:09 BinGOs 25 days to go.
14:09 jberger And then reneged on the deal
14:10 genio and then played the victim card ad nauseam without providing any substance.
14:11 jberger I'm not saying it's a good situation and the sooner we get another pause level the better
14:12 perlpilot So ... there's active discussion somewhere on creating another PAUSE level?
14:13 jberger There was, near the top of the discussion on dbic
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14:14 jberger The problem is only first come can create more comaint
14:15 jberger So if you want someone to administer a project you basically have to give it up
14:15 jberger That said sri has a legitimate grievance here
14:16 jberger Both in the abstract and in specifics
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14:35 ribasushi I am compelled to address some of the above, as this is a logged spot
14:35 ribasushi *) I did not "reneg" on any deal - since 2012 mst led me to believe on at least 3 documented occasions that he has "let go": latest one as recently as Dec 2015.
14:35 ribasushi *) The mad-dash in the past ~year was done entirely under such an arrangement: I would not have done any of this work if there was even a whiff of Matt coming back ( for reasons I am not going to reiterate here )
14:35 ribasushi If anything mst reneged on his "deal"
14:35 ribasushi *) My obligation is to existing deployments. Not to a vocal community, not to current/future maints, but to people who built cathedrals on the quicksand that is DBIC.
14:35 ribasushi This is what compelled me to commit to stay on and maintain a fork, under whatever namespace.
14:35 ribasushi It isn't (and can't be) for my own use, but for those who are left with no option to opt out of mst's already announced experiments.
14:35 ribasushi Hope this clarifies a bit
14:35 sri genio/jberger: if riba took first-come with a take-back clause that needs to be 100% clearly stated, as to not create a dangerous precedent!!!1
14:36 sri my main point is that the Pause admins are currently an anonymous cabal doing stuff in the shadows without oversight
14:37 jberger That last point I can agree with, I don't see why that list isn't known
14:38 jberger And yet at the same time we know who the players are here
14:40 jberger And I'm sorry but again, with a lack of a "maintainer" middle layer of pause perm, when there's an agreement made I'd need to see the agreement ended
14:40 jberger Not just led to believe
14:41 jberger Anyway, let's fix the pause levels, the sooner the better
14:42 ribasushi pause levels would not help in this situation: I'd still be forced to maintain a fork :/
14:42 jberger It doesn't help dbic, ex post facto, but it helps prevent it happening again
14:43 jberger That agreement is the only reason I'm not 100% with riba on this one
14:43 perlpilot A new PAUSE level would have made the decision clearer.  (i.e. that a fork is forced rather than the weird limbo that existed where we weren't sure if that was a fore gone conclusion)
14:44 ribasushi jberger: forget the agreement: there are currently other very high profile on-paper-owned-by-mst projects which became something usable only after he stepped away: what will you do when he decides to shake-things-up there against the will of the actual most-of-the-code owner?
14:44 jberger And to be clear, I'm not saying I like any of ribas plans, but as first come, I'd support his right to them
14:45 ribasushi I said 50 times that the original plan was a no go, and even explained why, so I am not sure what are you referring to
14:45 ribasushi and I am getting distracted, so will leave it at that
14:45 ribasushi we can talk later if there is interest
14:57 genio And the argument got changed again.  *sigh*
14:59 pink_mist 15:13 <jberger> There was, near the top of the discussion on dbic <-- but that's the wrong place for it, isn't it? shouldn't that be proposed on modules@perl.org or so?
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15:03 jberger ribasushi I've never seen anywhere that "actual most of the code owner" means anything and I won't engage in that argument
15:04 jberger (Sorry for the chop in my messaging, I'm getting ready for work)
15:05 jberger sri: wrt 100% clearly stated; I believe I've seen mst acknowledge that in hindsight that agreement should have been someplace more easily seen
15:05 jberger But I've seen the IRC exchange, it was very clear
15:06 jberger And I've never seen riba claim that didn't happen
15:07 ribasushi <ribasushi> *) I did not "reneg" on any deal - since 2012 mst led me to believe on at least 3 documented occasions that he has "let go": latest one as recently as Dec 2015.
15:08 ribasushi ^^ I claim *this happened after*
15:08 ribasushi which is all moot anyway at this point, but please: let's not do a one-sided presentation like xdg's "fair and unbiased vote call"
15:08 pink_mist hmm, I've only seen one of those "documented occasions", and it did not to me come across as mst having let go
15:09 ribasushi anyway I really need to get cracking on other stuff &
15:09 pink_mist at most, it was him acknowledging that if you went ahead and did what you planned, there wasn't much he could do about it
15:15 sri btw, i was wrong on the artistic license, it doesn't protect us
15:16 sri if the pause admins want they can take over the project
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15:27 sri oh right, it's 2016... of course cpan has to explode
15:27 sri and purl left us too
15:27 sri coincidence? I THINK NOT!
15:27 sri https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy-raGHWEAAxwDG.jpg
15:29 CHYC Hi. What's the idiomatic way of render_to_string inside a minion task?  Can't seem to find any examples online (my google-fu is weak on this one).
15:30 sri there's an app instance in the minion task
15:38 CHYC Ah, $job->app->build_controller->render_to_string. Perfect :)
15:40 genio If that was the complaint from the beginning (that there's no PAUSE admin oversight committee) then what was the point in this tangential nonsense? Put in a formal request to have said changes made and get over it. Instead, we've delved into airing dirty laundry without any clear goals for months only making the entire community look petulant rather than directly addressing the issue actually cared about.
15:40 * genio should probably stop internetting today
15:46 haarg i tried to address the lack of policy back in october, but nobody seemed to care
15:47 sri genio: you have to make enough noise for people to care
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15:48 genio This was absolutely the wrong way to go about it. period.
15:48 genio That's why we have mailing lists, IRC servers, etc.
15:48 sri genio: show us the right way :)
15:49 genio Write a proposal. Don't talk about it. Write it. Send it to the lists, p5p, modules@, etc. Discuss it in #p5p, #toolchain, etc.
15:49 perlpilot genio: Also, people aren't omniscient or omnipotent last time I checked.  Some of this stuff was "discovered" along the way and probably didn't get enough "noise" for it to bubble up to many people's consciousness.
15:51 genio Hell, discuss it in person over a beer even. There are so many ways other than to resort to this to get something going.
15:55 genio great, don't listen. Just tweet more about how everything is disorganized and broken.
15:57 jberger sri: re your tweet, ANDK is kinda the final authority no?
15:57 sri jberger: you tell me ;p
16:00 genio join toolchain, join p5p, email the perl foundation members or even Larry, ask.
16:00 jberger Larry doesn't care
16:00 sri lol
16:00 sri you're funny, ask Larry
16:00 jberger I've made the "appeal to Larry" argument before, that's a nonstarter
16:00 genio spreading fodder doesn't help. you're adding to the problem, not solving it.
16:01 sri i've asked Larry before actually
16:01 sri he does not want to deal with this stuff
16:02 sri i think the problem can be summed up with this https://twitter.com/kraih/status/806165188114345984
16:03 perlpilot jberger: I'd say Larry *does* care, but not in an authoritarian manner.  He wants the community to work stuff out without always asking him.  (IMHO)
16:04 genio again, you jumped past all of the logical ones and picked the "or even larry" part that was meant as silly and avoided the whole appropriate line of questioning.
16:05 sri you're assuming i've not done that before
16:06 genio So, instead of replying to the list periodically to ask if anyone has any knowledge of how to proceed (it sometimes takes a long time and people don't answer if they don't feel the have the authority to do so) we resort to this?!
16:06 sri you're being very unconstructive yourself here
16:06 sri you just repeat stuff i've done before
16:06 jberger again, I say, the easiest first thing to do is add another pause perm level
16:07 jberger the only grounds for this entire argument is based on the lack of ability for a co-maint to make more co-maint
16:07 haarg do you expect people to not react when a decision is made that they disagree with?
16:07 jberger which is why mst gave riba first come in the first place
16:08 sri you can reach broad consensus on the mailing-lists and have nothing happen afterwards because there's nobody who feels responsible for implementing the idea or even has the authority to do so
16:08 genio haarg: When the decision was one that was requested in the first place, discussed for over three months, and then voted on accordingly? yea. with respect.
16:08 haarg genio: the decision was made on 9-21 by the pause admins
16:08 haarg riba already lost first-come as of that day
16:09 genio no, https://pause.perl.org/pause/authenquery?pause99_peek_perms_by=me&amp;pause99_peek_perms_query=DBIx::Class&amp;pause99_peek_perms_sub=1
16:09 genio he's still first-come.  A dispute came up (with riba being part of the dispute). He asked them to step in and keep everything public. They did what he asked.
16:10 haarg when xdg publicly says that any attempt by riba to use first-come to make changes will be reverted, he no longer has those permissions.
16:10 sri genio: you're not listening
16:10 haarg on a purely technical level, permission levels in pause are unfortunately not very straightforward to deal with so "easy" is relative
16:12 pink_mist sri: if it wasn't for the original agreement that mst would get it back, I'd completely agree with you ... but that agreement was actually made; whether the public was aware of it or not is irrelevant
16:13 perlpilot genio: btw, do you have a link to a source where riba asked the pause admins to step in?  (I don't recall that he asked anyone to step, but I do recall that he wanted discussion to be public)
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16:13 sri pink_mist: not disagreeing with you, but pandoras box has now been opened
16:14 sri the pause admins reassign permissions without consent from now on
16:14 sri what i'm concerned about is the next dispute
16:15 sri specifically that they do "what the community" wants worries me
16:15 genio they haven't reassigned permissions. they made sure nobody did anything rash while a dispute was on-going. several months of discussion were had, resulting in a vote that is now on-going. what other way can one possibly do this?
16:15 pink_mist sri: this is an extreme case where riba refused to follow the agreement; if other people also refuse to follow agreements they've made, I'd expect community voting in such cases too
16:16 sri pink_mist: i want that clearly stated
16:16 pink_mist sri: sure, then say that ... don't just troll with vague doomsday prophecies.
16:16 sri you're assuming stuff, but we don't even know who the pause admins are
16:16 sri how could we trust them?
16:17 genio please stop with that nonsense
16:17 sri no, you stop with your nonsense
16:17 genio I'm not the one spreading fodder about the community as a whole and not accepting any argument because "how could we trust"
16:18 pink_mist sri: I don't see anything that would make me not trust them ... but I can see the need for clearer guidelines for the pause admins; public guidelines
16:18 haarg there were essentially two options.  first was to leave permissions with ribasushi.  second was to give them to "the community".  and then "the community" would vote on that.
16:18 sri basic accountability
16:19 sri i've said it before, we joke about how node.js package management is governed, but here we are putting our trust in a group of anonymous pause admins that operate without rules or accountability
16:19 haarg so the community has already been given control, and leaving permissions with riba has already been decided against and the entire voting process is pointless.
16:21 pink_mist haarg: yes, the community has already been given control. but one of the proposals was actually giving it back to riba; that's what the vote is about
16:29 sri most of you seem a bit naive with your trust in cpan admins
16:29 sri but i've been through the whole catalyst thing back in the days
16:30 pink_mist true, I was not around for that, so I have no idea what happened
16:31 sri behind the scenes there were cpan admins pressuring me into giving up the namespace
16:31 sri with the pretence of doing the right thing "for the community"
16:32 sri today i know i should have stood up to them, but inexperienced me thought it was the only way to keep the project alive
16:36 sri the fact that you're trusting them so willingly suggests i maybe should air that dirty laundry :/
16:38 sri not even sure people would care anymore though
16:43 [vlad] wasn't it a good thing you split from catalyst?
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16:44 sri no, catalyst should have evolved into mojo imo., we lost a few years of momentum due to the split
16:48 mishanti1 In all this, remember there are good things in the world: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maojhxZLAG1ql7yxvo1_500.jpg
16:48 jberger anyway, I think there will always need to be someone who can pull the levers when necessary
16:48 jberger like say if an author dies
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16:48 sri :D
16:48 genio mishanti1++   # d'awww
16:49 jberger lets just work to make sure that THIS case never happens again
16:49 genio gotta love the fluffy goofballs
16:49 jberger mishanti1++
16:51 sri btw. i find it a little terrifying that all the licenses allow software to be changed substantially and redistributed with the same name
16:52 sri makes me want to get a trademark
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16:53 Grinnz trademark would be a more appropriate way to protect a name, but it's not easy to enforce
16:55 pink_mist it also costs money to maintain a trademark
16:58 sri just checked, costs 290 euros in germany for 10 years, and 750 for another 10 years from then on
17:05 sri ok, how about a mojolicious community rule that excludes cpan admins from participating? :)
17:05 sri that should protect us reasonably well, no?
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17:07 sri until there are publically enforced rules at least
17:08 sri you're right, removing my dists from cpan to make a point hurts the users we care about
17:09 sri but only excluding cpan admins does make a point and only hurts those in power
17:10 sri and i'll announce it with a blog post to make the intention clear
17:12 sri jberger: thoughts?
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17:59 jberger Excluding them from participating in what? The mojo community?
18:00 sri yes
18:00 jberger I can see that being a form of protest but I don't see how it protects anything
18:05 jberger I also think that (a) breaking off communication rarely promotes the values you want to see promoted (see diplomacy history)
18:06 jberger and (b) mojo already has the reputation of being "anti-cpan" (not deserved but nonetheless) and I would hate to see our reputation take a hit in that way
18:06 jberger I'd rather see a blog post calling on the Pause admins to be more public about membership and polciy
18:06 jberger policy
18:07 jberger personally I want to see this situation addressed by adding another level, which will prevent future cases where first-come is given away merely for expediency
18:08 jberger and I think that they could be asked to respond to the integrity of a pause admin being involved in a dispute being a conflict
18:08 jberger anyway, we have a collaborator in for a visit today and we are going out for lunch
18:09 jberger I'll try to poke in, but I may be gone for a little bit
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18:16 joe i'm trying to use Mojo::IOLoop to fire off 100 kids, but it only does them one at a time.. what did i miss... thanks  http://pastebin.com/psGEKvVC
18:17 joe looks prettier here: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/500594/48104795/
18:21 xdg FWIW, I posted this link in response to sri's questions on #toolchain and think it might be helpful context for people here as well: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.modules/2016/10/msg96201.html
18:22 xdg I don't think this or any other project needs to worry about community uprisings aided and abetted by PAUSE admins.   We don't want to be in that role any more than you want us in that role.
18:24 pink_mist xdg: so what about when you (I don't know if it was you personally, but you're the current representative) pressured sri into relinquishing Catalyst?
18:25 xdg pink_mist, I was never a part of Catalyst.  I'm not even sure if I was a PAUSE admin at that time.
18:28 joe anybody know how i can make mojo loop? it seems to time out
18:28 joe on the wait
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19:58 sri btw. ANDK does have the final say on all things PAUSE admins
19:58 sri asking him how he would handle a dispute
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21:15 sri can't believe how few nicely designed qi chargers there are
21:16 sri wanted to get one of these, but apparently samsung stopped making them :( https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3Lb95rVKaI4/hqdefault.jpg
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21:27 ksmadsen_ Sony has one that looks ok: http://www.sonymobile.com/global-en/products/accessories/wireless-charging-plate-wch10/specifications/
21:29 ksmadsen_ Don't know if it's still available, though
21:29 sri not bad
21:35 sri oh, but not even metal
21:37 pink_mist \m/
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22:12 jberger I think I'm going to get the ones from Ikea
22:12 jberger they are the only ones I can find that don't have a status light of any kind (or at least say that they don't)
22:13 jberger http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/80289790/
22:13 jberger there's a 3 pad version too
22:18 sri oh, i was just at ikea and i totally did not see those :o
22:27 mishanti1 Huh. Didn't look half bad those.
22:28 mishanti1 So wireless charging is starting to become a thing?
22:29 sri for android users it's always been a thing
22:29 * sri currently has one of those anker chargers, but wants something nicer looking
22:29 mishanti1 Oh? I must have completely missed that.
22:30 mishanti1 Yay for living in the future. I guess..
22:35 mishanti1 I switched to this phone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_215
22:36 mishanti1 Extremely happy with the change.
22:39 jberger all the qi chargers I've had have been completely unusable due to blinding lights on them
22:39 jberger I need to sleep in very dark rooms
22:39 mishanti1 jberger: Norway would be great for you during winter. :)
22:40 jberger and yet terrible during summer
22:40 stephan48 these awesome ultra bright status leds? :D
22:40 stephan48 on stuff i can't disable overnight i solved it with tape. but i don't care too much for the aesthetics
22:40 jberger why do they even need status leds?! the phone tells me if its charging!
22:40 stephan48 best in blue or so?
22:41 jberger the worst of these, tape won't solve
22:41 jberger there's a whole darn ring that lights up
22:41 stephan48 ah crap
22:42 stephan48 i see the purpose of the thing telling you its status but either make it configurable or make it so faint that you can see it when you put your phone it and not half the city away
22:42 mishanti1 That is when I pull out spray-paint.
22:42 stephan48 haha
22:42 preaction my tv entertainment center has a generous helping of black electrical tape
22:42 mishanti1 Mine as well.
22:42 preaction because someone invented blue LEDs which are 100x stronger than red ones for reasons
22:42 mishanti1 Though it is not really a problem, since I do not use it.
22:43 preaction mine has my mac mini and a bunch of external HD enclosures, each with one or more LEDs...
22:43 Grinnz i havent had that problem lately, but the only denizens of my TV entertainment center are my sound system, my chromecast, and my amazon fire stick
22:43 Grinnz so.... not much in the way of LEDs :P
22:44 Grinnz my desktop on the other hand has some quite bright ones on the front
22:44 jberger this crap: http://forums.androidcentral.com/attachments/samsung-galaxy-s6-edge/170086d1428463038t-s6-s-new-circular-wireless-charging-pad-always-led-not-good-bedside-2015-04-07-23.13.52.jpg
22:44 stephan48 shoot its maker
22:44 Grinnz it's positive feedback!
22:45 Grinnz I do quite enjoy when my roomba runs into its charger and it lights up for a bit :P but yeah theres no reason for that to stay on
22:45 mishanti1 Oh you kids and your gadgets.
22:46 stephan48 yea no problem with "HEY I CHANGED MY STATUS OK THANKX BY YOU DON'T CARE I DISABLE THE LED AGAIN" but permanent on is kind of useless
22:46 stephan48 https://xkcd.com/1558/ i just have to link this.
22:47 Grinnz hahah
22:47 stephan48 (as always look at the tooltip)
22:47 Grinnz I know about that act, because I previously looked up whether it is legal to own a seagull (It isn't)
22:48 stephan48 oh?
22:49 pink_mist 0_o why would you even want to own a seagull?
22:50 stephan48 a very good question
22:54 jberger stephan48++ ; Grinnz: wat?
22:54 Grinnz well um, you see, there's this overwatch streamer named seagull, and um
22:55 Grinnz twitch chat needed to know
23:16 orev did redirect_to recently change to using 302 redirects?  I don't remember seeing them as permanent before
23:18 Grinnz 302 is temporary, 301 is permanent
23:18 orev or maybe the problem is firefox.  it seems to be caching a post request even when I manually enter the url for a get request
23:19 orev ok, 302 is what I wanted then.  firefox seems to be acting strnagely
23:22 pink_mist posts can't be cached
23:22 pink_mist your tests are wrong
23:22 orev yeah, something else is going on
23:22 orev found the logic error, tracing it through

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