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IRC log for #mojo, 2018-01-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 preaction so, that goes even more towards "Perl.com is an official source for Perl community news"
00:30 mohawk someone should write up a blog entry for perl.com putting the pro-perl-5 position
00:35 nicomen mohawk: what would that be?
00:39 nicomen (mostly curious btw, and feel free to follow up in a more on-topic channel)
00:56 mohawk that was probably over-concise. i really mean the pro-renaming-perl6-so-perl5-can-have-free-numbering position
00:56 nicomen did you read Zoffix' follow up and Zefram's post on p5p?
00:56 mohawk no, can you URL me? i haven't been on p5p since 2001
00:56 nicomen ah, the versioning/naming sure
00:57 nicomen http://blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/2018/01/long-live-perl-5.html and (linked from the article: https://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2018/01/msg248863.html)
00:57 mohawk oh, i did read zoffix's article. i was skeptical
00:58 mohawk not badly put by z
00:58 nicomen I'm curious on where perl6 "is being used in production"
00:59 nicomen not that it's relevant to the discussion
00:59 nicomen (other than still just fine to rename it)
01:00 mohawk and liz's p5p continues with the FUD "narrative"
01:01 nicomen As I understand the difficulty of a a clean-room implementation of perl5 is some of the reason perl6 exists
01:01 nicomen oh well
01:01 preaction yes, and why projects like perlito have rarely made it as far as perlito has
01:02 mohawk yes, perlito looked quite intriguing
01:03 nicomen is there anything wrong with it?
01:03 mohawk i remember when i briefly and shamefully committed java for money, wishing for a com.perl.Scalar class where i didn't want to care about string vs number
01:04 Grinnz how would that work without coercing operators?
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01:06 mohawk it would have had methods on it to do all the things you'd need
01:08 mohawk and since this was over 18 years ago, i don't remember my specific use-case :-)
04:28 hesco1 .
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12:18 mishanti1 Heh. Chatted with a friend working in the Java-world and got talking about the Perl-naming discussions that he had noticed on Reddit. He proposed forking PHP7 and call it RakudoPerl2. "Just for the lulz".
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12:54 tyldis Perl 9 (6 upside down)
12:54 tyldis And is higher than PHP. Win-win
12:56 mishanti1 Much better, yes. :)
12:59 mishanti1 As he said: "It is these things that make it all too easy for outsiders to riddicule the Perl-community."
13:40 nicomen lol at php-fork ;D
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13:47 nicomen the easiest for perl 5 is to just drop the 5, so we are at perl 26.1 now ;)
13:54 marcus I'd be happy with that too
13:57 Vandal What would it change?
13:59 pink_mist the perception that perl6 is replacing perl
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14:02 Vandal who has that perception?
14:02 nicomen everybody not active in the perl community?
14:02 nicomen even regular perl developers think that perl6 is a replacement/upgrade
14:03 Vandal is it a question to me?
14:03 Vandal *for me
14:05 Vandal I can't uderstand how it is an issue
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14:06 pink_mist Vandal: the issue is that it's false
14:06 Vandal Its not like P6 is wide spread on servers and regular developers trying to run their projects on P6
14:07 pink_mist Vandal: perl6 is a different, separate, language. the idea that perl6 would replace perl is as crazy as the idea that C++ would replace C
14:07 Vandal I thought P6 had more pressing issues
14:07 pink_mist I don't see how perl6's issues are relevant
14:07 nicomen pink_mist: more crazy I'd say, you can quite easily write c and c++ intermixed
14:07 pink_mist true
14:07 nicomen more like javascript replacing java ;D
14:09 Vandal pink_mist, I cant see how this can iterfere with regular perl developers
14:10 Vandal they will try to run P4 code with on P6>
14:10 Vandal ?
14:10 pink_mist Vandal: did you completely ignore all my points?
14:10 pink_mist Vandal: if you're not going to listen to what's being said, I'll stop talking to you
14:11 Vandal pink_mist, I can only see one point - cuz its not true
14:12 nicomen Vandal: perl6 has kept perl5 hostile in versioning, in public narrative of what's next, and is not even compatible. It has diverged to omuch from the original language, and can not be compared to python 2 vs 3 or php5 vs 6/7
14:12 Vandal but I cant uderstand why so much fuss about it
14:16 Vandal nicomen, so point of renaming is so public dont think that P6 is update for P5. I undrstad that. I dont see the profit
14:16 pink_mist there's no renaming
14:16 pink_mist where are you getting renaming from?
14:17 Vandal it not like every one would suddenly run to P5
14:17 pink_mist it's just a move to the right version number
14:17 Vandal topic started from mentioning reddit rename topic
14:18 pink_mist well yes, renaming perl6 should definitely be done
14:18 pink_mist but that's not what we've been discussing at all
14:19 pink_mist you asked "what would it change" where "it" referred to dropping the 5 from 5.26.1
14:19 pink_mist _that_ is what we've been discussing
14:20 mishanti1 Vandal: I have had to explain to quite a few companies that no, Perl 6 is indeed not Perl, but something entirely different.
14:20 mishanti1 The argument that has been made is "if 6 is the current version, why use 5?".
14:21 Vandal pink_mist, isnt it have the same purpose as renaming P6?
14:21 mishanti1 I've even had to explain this to _perl developers_, that is those who don't follow the petty squabbles and politics in the Perl community.
14:22 Vandal mishanti1, I dont follow it too, but I know what p6 is
14:23 Vandal mishanti1, if perl developer hasn't tried p6 - he is not real perl developer he is just coding subroutine
14:23 pink_mist Vandal: please stop spouting nonsense
14:24 mishanti1 Yeah, that last argument of your Vandal was simply nonsense.
14:24 mishanti1 s/your/yours/
14:24 Vandal pink_mist, what is the profit of dropping 5 from version?
14:24 pink_mist I bloody well already told you
14:24 Vandal pink_mist, can you copy-paste?
14:25 pink_mist 14:57 <Vandal> What would it change?
14:25 pink_mist 15:00 <pink_mist> the perception that perl6 is replacing perl
14:26 Vandal pink_mist, what is the profit in changig this perception? Warm feeling inside?
14:26 Vandal I cant undersnad
14:26 pink_mist you're now going on my /ignore
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15:34 tyldis Vandal: I'm afraid I'm feeding the troll, the PR external to Perl is fundamental to the language success. You need to attract new developers, not just keeping the few you have.
15:35 tyldis If people think P6 is a next version, then people will avoid Perl alltogether until things are stable on P6. Which they never will be because P6 hardly has a developer community.
15:37 Vandal tyldis, not a troll, honestly dont understand how it will profit developer
15:37 tyldis Increments in minor version numbers does not attract any press for P5
15:37 Vandal I assume it not that easy to drop 5 and require a lot of work from developers
15:37 tyldis For me, the major part is the external PR that is needed to attract new developers
15:38 tyldis Going from P5 to P6 I might as well head for golang.
15:38 Vandal why not node?
15:39 tyldis Point being that P6 is just as different from P5 than pretty much any random language
15:39 Vandal oh
15:39 tyldis P5 has a serious PR problem, which is really hurting us when it comes to recruiting.
15:40 Vandal and you think dropping 5 will solve it?
15:40 Vandal every one will yell WOW and run to us?
15:41 tyldis At least we would have a chance.
15:42 Vandal maybe its just me, but I do not see how it will be different
15:43 tyldis Pretty much everyone is aware of the huge progress PHP7 has made. If they had not been able to bump version, there would be no PR and nobody would know nor care
15:43 Vandal when Python is in all Computer Education programs and Javascript is litteraly everywhere, why do some one need PErl?
15:43 tyldis The version number is not all of it, but a huge paert of gaining PR
15:49 marcus javascript is still a worse language imo.
15:51 Vandal no doubt
15:52 Vandal but it is everywhere and it is more important
15:52 Vandal and it have even worse versioning issues than Perl :)
15:53 Vandal but it doesn't stop it
16:08 nicomen I think the current hostage situation should be fixed, just as I think all other, not necessarily critical, issues should be solved to help improve productivity, widespread and lessen confusion.
16:15 tyldis JS has no version that anyone outside the community cares about
16:16 mohawk that's because with their back-compat, it's effectively "all one language"
16:16 mohawk p5->6 doesn't have that
16:17 tyldis Hence it matters
16:17 mohawk agreed
16:18 mohawk please upvote the "full rename" option on my "new p6 name" thread :-)
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16:31 tyldis But I just want to code in a nice community, not be part of drama
16:40 jabberwok someone once spoke of "the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris."   Refusing to rename "Perl 6" is definitely hubris?
16:41 mohawk he wants to keep perl 7 "for experiments"
16:41 mohawk i would note that unlike many others, larry does not depend on perl's vitality for his livelihood
16:42 mohawk that's the most fundamental problem with the BDFL model
16:42 mohawk he has self-granted ultimate authority, but literally zero accountability
16:42 tyldis But surely Larry is an intelligent human being. I can't really understand this mess.
16:42 mohawk he indeed is intelligent
16:43 tyldis I kinda belive he does not really care about this and that there are others forcing his hand
16:43 jabberwok not unlike ... QEII has been mostly wonderful, but no-one knows what to do with Charles?
16:43 mohawk i can only speculate on his reasoning, but i can be damn sure his motivation is not taking the p5 community's interests into account
16:43 mohawk let's not digress too far
16:43 tyldis Sure
16:44 mohawk digress = the UK constitution :-)
16:44 mohawk anything perlish is obviously relevant ;-)
16:44 jabberwok aye. -- no-one wants a fork.
16:44 tyldis He has a diagnosis and I suspect it relates, but it doesn't really matter
16:44 mohawk diagnosis?
16:45 jabberwok Camilla, err, Camellia, is not the subject here.
16:45 tyldis mohawk: Asperger’s syndrome
16:45 tyldis But let's not go down there
16:46 mohawk hm
16:46 mohawk indeed
16:46 tyldis Seems nobody really knows the mist covering the version numbers
16:46 tyldis But I have never seen LArry himself involved
16:47 tyldis My conclusion is that he has no interest in being involved
16:47 tyldis So there are 'some' thath as the power to continue this nonsense
16:48 mohawk agreed
16:48 tyldis And I'm afraid I see no way to reason with them
16:48 mohawk there's an interesting article by cringely about gaddafi i'll dig up
16:49 tyldis The sad part is that I have a lot of respect for many of the P6 people. They have been essential to P5 over the years.
16:49 mohawk https://www.cringely.com/2011/02/20/major-jolloud/
16:49 mohawk read it, i think that's what is happening here
16:51 tyldis Along those lines, might be.
16:52 tyldis But I keep my head low as I have no name within the community and lack all the internal history.
16:52 tyldis And seeing how the bigger names are dismissed, there is not much hope
16:56 jabberwok ogdenNash92
16:57 jabberwok bleah
16:59 tyldis So I'm just an average Perl 5 dev. I consume the language, but I don't contribute a lot to it (I'm sysadmin/architect first, developer second). But I really love it, and if this debacle is making me reassess how much I invest in Perl, then the damage must be real with regards to recruiting from the outside.
17:00 tyldis And I don't really understand how those people I admire for their efforts in P5 are seemingly working so hard to damage P5 now. Are they dillusional? Am I dumb?
17:01 tyldis I guess this is not much #mojo anymore, though
17:03 jabberwok Mojo is what brought the fun back into programming for me.
17:03 mohawk tyldis, i think you should weigh in with that point about the damage
17:03 mohawk mojo is great
17:03 mohawk if perl 5 dies, what of mojo? ;-)
17:04 tyldis Depending on the situation I say I do Mojolicious and neglect to mention Perl.
17:05 mohawk ha
17:05 mohawk but still, what you say is a data point
17:06 mohawk i suspect the p6 radicals are quite happy if they've silenced all opposition to their "narrative"
17:06 mohawk remember that in supposed democracies, a tactic in use is to sicken people so they stay home and don't vote
17:07 mohawk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression
17:07 tyldis I don't believe democracies exist other than in theory, but let's leave that for another day ;)
17:08 jabberwok Mojo, like Perl, feels like just another layer of the UNIX philosophy.  Perl6 does not.
17:08 tyldis mohawk: And where to use one's voice in this matter? There is no way to comment on the "open letter" post.
17:09 mohawk tyldis, the comments are effectively the reddit thread, and you can very much comment there
17:09 mohawk i haven't looked yet today (got to add some tests for a OAI PR for the slave-driver batman ;-) but i suspect there will now be >300 comments
17:10 tyldis 285, but it's currently down to the 15th place in that sub
17:11 tyldis Reddit is usually more realtime, so 4 days out the thread's ded, zed ;)
17:11 tyldis But sure, if one does not try one cannot succeed.
17:12 mohawk jabberwok, well said on one, and i tend to agree on the p6 point
17:13 mohawk i won't bother saying this on the reddit, but p6 does seem to me like they tried to double down on all the things people find "inaccessible" about perl - the punctuation being the hugest one
17:13 mohawk "twigils", for pity's sake
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17:15 tyldis Familytime, then reddit later.
17:17 jabberwok mohawk:  right.  more like:  squiggles
17:18 mohawk tyldis, enjoy!
17:18 mohawk jabberwok, "perl 6 - for people who find brainfuck too accessible"
17:20 nicomen if anyone wants to write a "just the average perl 5 dev" opinion blog post, with several signees, I'm happy to contribute
17:21 nicomen or, I can probably edit separately contributed paragraphs into a blob^Wg post
17:22 mohawk nicomen, well volunteered
17:22 mohawk i will sign if it matches what you say :-)
17:22 nicomen well, I'll gladly acept valid points with some backing, not able to remember everything myself
17:23 mohawk nicomen, this channel is logged so remembering is optional :-)
17:23 nicomen also, I just remembered, I don't have a blog anymore ;-D
17:23 mohawk submit an article to perl.com
17:23 mohawk i'm confident they'll be receptive
17:30 jabberwok The emphasis on Objects is off-putting.  With Mojo, there is enough docs to mostly discover all the layers, but when you have $object it is just never clear where all the data lurks and what sub-methods are where.
17:31 jabberwok and then you have Ruby where » if (0) « is true, because zero is an object and objects are true.   AAARRRRGH no
17:33 mohawk gosh, that must be exciting to program in (eye-roll)
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17:55 jamesaxl HEllo
17:57 jamesaxl Could you help me? I really do not know how to send request to a specific worker in hypnotoad. I have 7 workers
17:57 pink_mist you can't
17:59 jamesaxl pink_mist: I have timer in my application that send a request to hypnotoad in every second. The problem it increase with 7 second and not 1 second.
18:00 pink_mist if you want to coordinate data between workers, use a backend DB or message broker, such as Mojo::Pg or Redis
18:01 jamesaxl pink_mist: thank you very much
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19:13 tyldis mohawk: I bailed my draft. There is nothing new for me to bring to the table.
19:20 jamesaxl I think, there is not chance to run  $id = Mojo::IOLoop->recurring(1 => sub {...}); once  with hypontoad seven workers
19:21 Grinnz correct; i said a while ago, that sort of functionality needs to be in an external process
19:21 mohawk tyldis, what if you offer your draft to nicomen as a basis for his collected post?
19:23 jamesaxl I improve the performance of my server, I think I am going to use cron instead of $id = Mojo::IOLoop->recurring(1 => sub {...});. My goal was "using mojlicious for all"
19:27 mohawk Grinnz, would the right pattern look like $id = Mojo::IOLoop->recurring(1 => sub { Mojo::IOLoop::Subprocess->new->run(sub {...}) }) ?
19:27 Grinnz no
19:27 mohawk ah HA
19:27 Grinnz jamesaxl: that sounds reasonable to me
19:28 Grinnz mohawk: anything added to the event loop will run *in each worker that gets started*
19:28 mohawk ok
19:28 Grinnz jamesaxl: well, cron isn't for running things every second. you still might want to use a mojo event loop
19:29 Grinnz just, don't start it from hypnotoad
19:29 Grinnz you could write a command to start this other process
19:29 jamesaxl Grinnz: that is good idea than, thank you very much.
19:29 jamesaxl s/then/then
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