The web in a box - a next generation web framework for the Perl programming language

IRC log for #mojo, 2018-01-22

| Channels | #mojo index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
01:13 aborazmeh joined #mojo
02:08 mib_f6a3vc joined #mojo
02:25 stokachu joined #mojo
03:06 mtj joined #mojo
03:08 mgrimes joined #mojo
03:20 mohawk_pts joined #mojo
03:40 zakame joined #mojo
03:55 mohawk joined #mojo
04:14 mtj joined #mojo
04:52 jberger oh plot twist!
04:55 mohawk ?
04:56 mohawk jberger, ?
04:57 jberger oh sorry, the other (lesser) topic of the week, The Good Place
04:57 mohawk ha
04:57 mohawk i'll say only that i read the wikipedia synopsis since i won't watch it
04:57 mohawk and yes, plot twist
05:02 inokenty-w joined #mojo
05:04 dboehmer joined #mojo
05:05 mohawk here was me thinking some new thing had occurred in the P6 Saga
05:24 mohawk_pts joined #mojo
05:33 mohawk joined #mojo
06:07 Vandal joined #mojo
07:52 ghenry joined #mojo
07:52 dod joined #mojo
07:53 McA joined #mojo
07:54 AndrewIsh joined #mojo
08:04 ashimema joined #mojo
08:13 dod joined #mojo
08:27 trone joined #mojo
08:46 karjala_ joined #mojo
08:51 Edward joined #mojo
09:45 sri szabgab is now the fox news of perl?
09:46 sri "A call for cooperation, that was apparently met by mostly negative reactions (see Reddit). I think it is very unfortunate, but I am not surprised."
09:49 ribasushi sri: "now" ?  you haven't ben reading him lately have you
09:50 sri guilty, i have not been reading him
09:53 ribasushi btw the technical side ( which came out after a ton of bogus comments ) is a real eye opener: https://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/7rio6d/long_live_perl_5/dt0ya68/?context=1
09:53 ribasushi ( read chromatc's question in full first )
10:01 Ralesk joined #mojo
10:16 bianca joined #mojo
10:22 bianca joined #mojo
10:25 markong joined #mojo
10:56 tchaves joined #mojo
12:02 bianca joined #mojo
12:03 bianca joined #mojo
12:03 ghenry joined #mojo
12:14 reetspetit joined #mojo
12:14 reetp_x5 joined #mojo
12:30 gregf_ hello
12:30 gregf_ regarding the issue i'd chatted last.. Mojo::URL
12:31 gregf_ i managed to debug and it related to a latest version of JSON::Validator getting installed
12:31 gregf_ s/it/its/
12:31 gregf_ i installed JSON::Validator@0.98 and it works fine now
12:32 gregf_ i saw a similar issue with Mojo::Loader as well :|
12:32 gregf_ time to have a proper cpanfile :D
12:41 pink_mist what I don't understand is liz's insistence that the butterfly perl 5 do a "clean room re-implementation" of perl 5 ... that would mean she cannot be a part of the effort, since she's seen the perl5 source code, even worked on it, which precludes it being clean room - I also don't see _why_ it needs to be clean room - there's no copyright issue is there? I mean, larry could just bless it
12:42 pink_mist I also don't think the perl5 license stops it
12:42 pink_mist but I don't know the p6 license
12:43 haarg probably just a misuse of the phrase
13:24 bianca joined #mojo
13:59 dod joined #mojo
13:59 zen joined #mojo
14:00 zen Hi, a couple of years ago I found a SSH client for mojolicious: however I am unable to find it now: does anybody here maybe knows where to find it? thanks in advance!
14:00 pink_mist 0_o never heard of something like that
14:03 * sri doesn't remember it either
14:03 sri would seem useful though
14:04 zen if by some wonder I do find it I will share te link here
14:14 maschine joined #mojo
14:14 jberger yeah, she just means reimplemented from scratch
14:15 jberger probably even means trying to do it cleanroom-like, ie without checking too much
14:15 jberger but there's no reason to actually cleanroom it
14:15 jberger I'm sure the notion would be to try to fix the mistakes of the original implementation by not repeating them
14:16 marty joined #mojo
14:16 jberger but you know how that goes, especially if I'm right about my guess that she would try to not consult the p5 source
14:16 jberger meanwhile, I'm trying to understand how this could even possibly
14:16 jberger + work
14:16 jberger leave aside XS
14:17 jberger are they going to implement reference counting on top of NQP
14:17 jberger ?
14:17 haarg no
14:17 jberger p5 has a lot of things that depend on reference counting, like destruction timing
14:18 jberger so without XS and without anything that ever does object destructors ... how much of cpan works do you think?
14:18 ribasushi jberger: it's in the stuff I linked some hours ago higher up
14:18 haarg approximately none
14:18 ribasushi the "no" to refcounting I mean
14:18 zen https://github.com/vti/showmetheshell
14:19 haarg basically it would be implementing perl 6 semantics with perl 5 grammar
14:19 jberger I've seen several posts about xs but I hadn't seen any answer the question of reference counting (I did see chromatic ask, but it wasn't answered)
14:20 jberger that's completely useless though
14:20 jberger I mean, I guess it might help people migrate their own knowledge
14:20 jberger but it doesn't really help migrate any code
14:20 jberger and it certainly doesn't implement anything like a continuation of p5 on a new vm
14:20 jberger sigh, I'm just getting myself angry again
14:21 jberger and I can't do that for another week
14:21 ribasushi <ribasushi> btw the technical side ( which came out after a ton of bogus comments ) is a real eye opener: https://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/7rio6d/long_live_perl_5/dt0ya68/?context=1
14:21 ribasushi jberger: ^^ the 6th occurrence of "ref" in that view
14:21 ribasushi and 5th
14:21 haarg the entire proposal is basically just "perl 6 doesn't have enough modules.  please come write them for us."
14:21 jberger it is entirely possible I've missed some comments
14:22 ribasushi jberger: yes, which is why I deep-linked it for the crowd, as it isn't easy to find
14:22 jberger it is hard to keep abreast of them all (I'm not used to r/perl having so many branching discussion)
14:22 jberger ribasushi: yes thank you
14:22 gizmomathboy joined #mojo
14:22 ribasushi haarg: shitov said exactly that this morning in https://perl6.online/2018/01/21/31-its-time-for-optimism/
14:23 jberger that goes back to the video that riba found
14:23 ribasushi "... No one will bring a new shiny Perl 6 to you; just act and serve yourself... "
14:23 jberger liz outright says to stop wasting time and money on p5 and come to p6 instead
14:24 ribasushi "...  Even if you cannot find a Perl 6 job, just continue your daily work in other languages. If you slowly start adding Perl 6 bits, you will help to bootstrap it. What is needed from us to Perl 6 today is just some additional love to this great language...."
14:24 ribasushi and now I will stop quoting before joel blows a gasket ;)
14:24 gregf_ haha
14:24 gregf_ if you cant go through the main door find a backdoor entry *runs*
14:25 jberger "I was very surprised that that is happening now. It was OK ten years ago, where it could be difficult to believe that Perl 6 would ever be a reality."
14:25 jberger sigh
14:25 jberger I've seen several people retconning this
14:25 jberger "oh we would have changed the name years ago, why didn't you ask then?"
14:26 jberger liz did it on irc suggesting that was possible even just before 6.c
14:26 jberger which is outlandish
14:26 pink_mist zen: that's cool, but it doesn't look like Mojolicious at all :P
14:27 pink_mist zen: it's using AnyEvent and is a psgi thing ... I don't think it'll actually work too well
14:27 jberger pink_mist / zen : yeah it uses socket.io which I've tried to port once or twice and it is an absolute catasrophe
14:27 zen hmm, maybe I mixed something up in my memory, my bad
14:28 jberger zen: it probably is what you remember, honestly, it is the only thing I'd seen like it
14:50 dod joined #mojo
14:58 gryphon joined #mojo
15:10 kes joined #mojo
15:12 trone joined #mojo
15:46 Jonis so, I generated an app with mojo generate app ABBR::App::Name, and the config file came out as a_b_b_r-app-name.conf, is that the intended?
15:47 Jonis folder name came out as abbrapp-name
15:50 itaipu joined #mojo
15:51 Pyritic joined #mojo
15:56 maschine_ joined #mojo
15:57 Seth joined #mojo
16:08 jabberwok perhaps it is outdated, but in reading http://design.perl6.org/Differences.html ... I think:  what a mess. I would rather learn APL.
16:09 pink_mist imo it doesn't make sense thinking of it as having "differences" to perl
16:09 pink_mist it's like trying to list the differences between perl and smalltalk
16:13 mohawk i'm starting to think it's time to resurrect my idea to rename perl 5
16:13 mohawk to "camel"
16:13 mohawk which depends on tim o'reilly blessing the use of camel
16:13 jabberwok mohawk:  I am, reluctantly, beginning to agree
16:13 dylan +1
16:13 jabberwok "You invoke Camel by typing its legacy name, 'perl' at the command prompt..."
16:14 mohawk (i recall advocating it, it may have been someone else's idea - i think i blogged on blogs.perl.org about it)
16:14 mohawk because we're right: "perl" is marketing poison
16:14 mohawk so why let us get dragged down with the P6 shipwreck?
16:14 mohawk jabberwok++
16:15 mohawk "Camel 30 was released today. it now features 'strict' as default..."
16:16 jabberwok not to be confused with Caml / OCaml ... hmm
16:20 mohawk good point
16:20 mohawk here's where i raised the point. i know i blogged about it but can't find that: https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/search/?nick=mohawk&amp;q=
16:20 mohawk sep 2014
16:21 sri 5lang
16:21 mohawk pronounced "flange"
16:21 * mohawk titters as an english person
16:22 Jonis :D
16:32 jberger Jonis yes that is probably correct, decamelization of abbreviations usually looks pretty bad
16:33 jabberwok "Flange with Mojo" ... who needs ruby and rails ?
16:33 jberger but you need something that can roundtrip
16:33 jberger Jonis: I'd recommend manually changing the app's moniker to something more sensible and then moving ahead
16:42 jberger I didn't remember that being the document that I read on p5 to p6 and it turns out that what I remembered wasn't specifically 5->6 but traps
16:42 jberger and in opening it up I see this gem: https://docs.perl6.org/language/traps#Assigning_to_attributes
16:42 jberger so ... we have sigil invariance, but now newcomers get to deal with twigil variance
16:42 jberger so much sigh
16:56 jberger on a different topic
16:56 jberger what happens to postgres log messages in re Mojo::Pg?
16:57 jberger I'm writing a wrapper for pg_notify that logs and returns false if pg_notify fails
16:57 jberger because I have a few places in my code where failing to notify shouldn't abort the transaction it is in
16:58 jberger but I'd still like to know when it is happening
16:58 disputin joined #mojo
17:03 sri undefined i guess
17:06 jamesaxl joined #mojo
17:11 sh14 joined #mojo
17:18 Grinnz mohawk: my view on that is that, while exactly one person is blocking perl 6 from changing its name, a huge ream of legacy code and users are blocking perl from changing its name
17:21 maschine joined #mojo
17:34 geospeck joined #mojo
17:53 ChmEarl joined #mojo
17:56 sh14|2 joined #mojo
18:11 jberger I think I have a new favorite meme
18:11 jberger https://imgur.com/gallery/5PwnRu1
18:12 jberger sri: btw, Mojo::Pg::Migrations is just too awesome for words
18:12 jberger <3
18:12 trone joined #mojo
18:38 dod joined #mojo
18:46 dod joined #mojo
18:51 dod1 joined #mojo
18:58 dod joined #mojo
19:09 dod joined #mojo
19:14 dod joined #mojo
19:15 gizmomathboy joined #mojo
19:25 coolo sri: the newest episode feels a bit written for Star Wars fans
19:25 jberger coolo: which show?
19:26 coolo discovery
19:40 dod joined #mojo
19:40 nicomen I have a friend stating that The Orville is better, I disagree
19:41 Grinnz based on the only two episodes I was able to watch without paying for CBS's dumb service, the orville is far better
19:43 nicomen I only watched one episode
19:43 kaare joined #mojo
19:45 Pyritic joined #mojo
19:48 jberger I'm behind on Orville and haven't started Discovery, but I really enjoy Orville
19:49 jberger family guy style jokes aside (which I think are diminishing somewhat), he really "gets" the trek mindset
19:49 nicomen jberger: I agree, but the childish humour ruins it for me
19:49 jberger I can see that
19:50 jberger I wouldn't have him do that if I were executive producer
19:50 nicomen sad, because it could be a nice farscape-ish startrek
19:50 sri coolo: i'm in prague this week and can't watch it :S
19:50 jberger but after the JJ Abrams movies, which are fun I'll grant, I didn't know if Trek would ever be Trek again
19:51 nicomen but as for new star trek parodys/hommages I enjoyed the black mirror episode USS Callister ;)
19:51 jberger that was pretty good
19:51 sri the orville is great, some jokes are a bit silly, but otherwise so close to tng
19:51 nicomen I want Starfleet to be a thing
19:52 pink_mist I'd say the orville is better at being star trek than discovery, but I'm still not sure if I think discovery is simply better or not
19:52 nicomen Slowly catching up on ST starting with TOS, one-by-one, in between Discovery episodes, mostly to educate my gf
19:52 sri i almost liked star wars again after episode 7 and rogue one... but episode 8 was sooooooooooo bad
19:53 nicomen rogue one++
19:53 jberger there was a lot of bad in 8
19:54 sri someone made a mark hamill montage on youtube with interviews that really showed how much he hated episode 8, he really doesn't hide it
19:57 sri jberger: re migrations... :D
19:58 sri still wonder if there's a nice way to organize a lot of mogrations
19:58 jberger I mean, you could steal some of what DBICDH does
19:59 jberger directories for migrations etc
20:00 Grinnz i think he tried that at one point?
20:00 dod1 joined #mojo
20:01 jberger hmmmm, maybe I do remember that
20:02 jberger was that while I was on vacation?
20:02 jberger I don't remember why but I was otherwise occupied
20:02 genio I haven't watched any of the latest sar wars
20:02 jberger 7 was good and comfortable, but had a few problems
20:02 jberger rogue one was dark and fun but had even more problems
20:02 jberger 8 has mostly problems
20:03 genio I've determined that I'm much more of a star trek fan (well, The Orville now)
20:03 jberger they are very different franchises
20:03 jberger and thus the reason why though I find the Abrams reboot fun, I can't hardly see it as the same franchise
20:04 sri i think there might still be a branch
20:06 sri https://github.com/kraih/mojo-pg/commit/76b6a94a5326e42f6561c50d5de4a111ac83250a
20:06 sri problem was that they still had to be loaded into memory
20:08 Grinnz I still think the description that star wars is more of a sci-fi lord of the rings really helped me approach that series better
20:10 jberger sri: and now I remember you saying that but I don't remember what the problem with that was
20:10 sri yea, you have to accept the space magic
20:10 jberger just that there could eventually be too many migrations to fit comfortably in memory?
20:10 jberger that seems like that's a thing to deal with when you get there
20:10 sri jberger: migrations are also never cleared from memory
20:11 jberger ah, that's true
20:11 jberger there's the point
20:11 sri which maybe we should fix anyway
20:11 sri hmm
20:12 sri at the very least a method to reset the migrations object
20:12 jberger just freeing the memory not unsetting its settings though, right?
20:13 sri no changes in the database, but total reset of the object
20:13 Grinnz could have auto migrations clear them itself
20:13 Pyritic joined #mojo
20:14 sri only downside would be that manual changes with the eval command become impossible
20:15 sri like migrate down to 0 with command, amd auto migrate up on restart
20:17 sri you'll laught, but i actually kinda like star wars rebels
20:18 sri s/t//
20:19 sri the star wars universe is so small in the movies
20:23 sri they so many more interesting stories to tell in that universe
20:27 jberger that's a good point (re small universe)
20:27 jberger I haven't seen rebels
20:29 jberger sri: if you just want to reset the object, you could just unset it in Mojo::Pg's attribute
20:29 jberger like we could document $pg->migrations(Mojo::Pg::Migrations->new(pg => $self))
20:30 jberger (probably with weaken, and yeah, that's probably why we should just have a reset)
20:35 disputin joined #mojo
20:36 dod joined #mojo
20:39 kgoess hey, jberger, I don't suppose you remember why "jberger says we want POSIX::_exit(0)"  https://github.com/kraih/mojo/commit/036f3112a
20:40 kgoess stdout and stderr from my subprocesses isn't being flushed because of that
20:40 preaction to prevent the standard END stuff from running and closing filehandles and sockets i suspect
20:40 jberger basically, yes
20:40 preaction you can't do that twice, after all
20:41 preaction so you need to explicitly close your subprocess's filehandles if you want them to be flushed
20:41 kgoess or set $|
20:41 preaction or, yes, set autoflush on all of them
20:41 kgoess kk, thanks
20:48 tyldis ccccccevibhvnuvkrjrillvbfjchvjijidnhvhcrvher
20:49 Grinnz +1
20:49 tyldis :(
20:50 mishanti1 tyldis: Kittie, kid or stroke?
20:51 tyldis Yubikey...
20:52 mishanti1 Oh. Ouch.
20:52 mishanti1 And I was jokingly going tosuggest 'password' as the next possible option.
20:53 tyldis I think I have to accidentally leak it quite a number of times before it becomes a liability.
20:54 tyldis Nice to have the twofactor just a touch away, unless I carry the laptop and bump into it
20:57 mishanti1 So the biggest liability is.. you? ;)
21:07 Grinnz thats the main reason I changed keepass's default Ctrl+V behavior to only type the password; rather than typing a bunch of stuff and pressing tab/enter
21:08 Grinnz too risky
21:08 Grinnz i mean i dont even use that functionality except when a page is stupid about copy/paste
21:08 Grinnz but it is a neat way to avoid risk from keyloggers as well
21:10 berov joined #mojo
21:11 jberger tyldis do recall that this channel is publicly logged
21:12 jberger or is that a rotating thing?
21:12 Grinnz that's the benefit of not remembering passwords: you can generate new ones :P
21:12 Grinnz i don't actually know what yubikey is so it may be more complex
21:28 jberger I have one, I just haven't set it up yet
21:44 disputin joined #mojo
21:59 tyldis jberger: Rotatates :)
22:00 tyldis I think there is a theoretical problem if I keep doing it. But I got a feeling I will be banned long before ;)
22:01 jberger yeah, gotcha
22:10 trone_ joined #mojo
22:26 KILOUN joined #mojo
23:31 disputin joined #mojo

| Channels | #mojo index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary