Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2008-12-06

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:55 masak joined #november-wiki
13:08 ihrd joined #november-wiki
13:08 ihrd HAI masak!
13:09 ihrd what abot server update?
13:09 ihrd I catch and fix my stupid bug with index
13:09 ihrd so, I think we are ready
13:09 ihrd our server really deprecate
13:12 masak HAI ihrd
13:12 masak viklund has the keys to the server update.
13:13 masak I have to do it in his presence.
13:13 masak and I'd like to port the new p5w skin first.
13:13 masak (which is a few day's work)
13:13 masak viklund and I will probably meet on Tuesday.
13:14 masak let's preliminarily set that as our server update date.
13:17 ihrd hm. I think we should do skins changable
13:18 ihrd frankly speaking I like our now works skin
13:18 ihrd I do something to it (do you see I add right side?), and will do more
13:19 ihrd when new html template have done
13:21 ihrd so, please, do not just remove old skin from the master
13:22 masak right
13:22 masak I was going to talk to you about some of the new additions
13:22 masak I've not really looked closely at them
13:22 masak but I feel some of them may noe remain as fixed components
13:23 masak I've been thinking about a system of pluggable UI components on the page, for easier design of skins
13:23 masak ihrd: it's very important to me that the default skin of November (and on the web page) looks good. our current skin doesn't look good enough.
13:26 ihrd so. I will do simple skin turner, because I like old skin :)
13:27 ihrd about plugins -- yes we need it.
13:27 masak ihrd: viklund is working on that.
13:28 ihrd and what about my changes, what you exactly unlike?
13:28 ihrd Recent changed?
13:31 masak ihrd: yes. not exactly 'dislike', but I haven't gotten used to it yet.
13:32 ihrd please, install p6w November on you local server and look at!
13:32 masak I will.
13:33 ihrd by the way I think it is really should be plug able
13:33 masak ihrd: we agree, then.
13:34 masak ihrd: it's just that I'd like a 'standard' edition of November to be clutter-free
13:34 masak both tags and the little recent-changes view add clutter.
13:34 masak I very much like those two features as optional plugins.
13:35 ihrd I can understand that
13:35 ihrd oh, tags is noise for you too?
13:35 masak and also, were I to be your boss (which I'm not) I would tell you to work on the more basic features of the wiki, like page history and diffs :)
13:35 masak ihrd: yes, tags is noise for me.
13:35 ihrd :(
13:35 masak ihrd: but I appreciate your effort.
13:36 masak ihrd: you are the project's most productive programmer, without contest.
13:36 ihrd I like to see who create and edit page
13:36 masak ihrd: I'm sometimes thinking about what you could acheive if you attacked the _real_ problems :)
13:37 ihrd I like to see related pages
13:37 masak ihrd: yes, that's all good too.
13:37 masak especially the first one.
13:37 ihrd for my It should be by default
13:37 masak "related pages" should probably be its own page, just like history and diffs
13:40 ihrd argh, If you look on the my commits you find many tests and bugfixes too. I attaked real problems. First time I just think I should do additional things, because core do you and viklund.
13:40 ihrd I start from fix cookies and other CGI.pm stuff
13:43 masak ihrd: yes, I know your fixed bugs. I'm not trying to belittle that either. I'm talking about work on new features.
13:44 masak ihrd: but I realize this is all just a question of different priorities and goals. and we haven't talked very much about that so far.
13:44 ihrd so I do Tags next because find it in todo and think it is cloase from other stuff, so I can`t disturb you in core part
13:44 masak s/your/you've/
13:44 masak ihrd: indeed.
13:45 masak it was in the file LOOKINTO, I noticed that a couple of days ago.
13:45 ihrd Dispatch and URI i take for the same resons
13:46 masak yes. I'm 100% positive about those two additions, btw.
13:46 masak it's mostly the graphical aspects of some additions that I think we need to consider.
13:46 masak (and whether to have them turned on by default)
13:51 masak I'll be afk for half an hour.
13:51 masak afk &
13:58 ihrd http://lh5.ggpht.com/_p10BUDfS_eU/STqEnrX​Yj9I/AAAAAAAAAI8/BiJKv-rzF1g/november.png
13:58 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/6m7l7o
13:58 ihrd this is how november looks on my server
13:58 ihrd thank you zarah
14:02 ihrd masak: another question, answer plz when you are return
14:03 ihrd masak: I think when we have one class in one file we should use `class Foo;` instead of `class Foo {}`
14:03 ihrd masak: are you agree?
14:30 * masak is back
14:30 masak ihrd: yes, I agree.
14:30 masak the question is what to do with files that also have grammars in them.
14:31 masak IIRC, currently the bahaviour for a class with a grammar inside is undefined.
14:31 masak re the earlier question about new features: I think there are two forces at work here. I thought about this during my walk to the sushi place.
14:33 masak One: the TODO file for me is docs/FEATURES, which outlines what I consider to be a wiki, in three layers of decreasing importance. I consider that our equivalent to a time line. I don't think I've mentioned that enough.
14:33 masak right now, p5w does everything in the first and second layers. p6w does everything in the first and some things in the second.
14:34 masak when p6w does everything in all three layers, I'll be willing to consider it "1.0" or whatever.
14:34 masak I really should be more clear on this goal.
14:35 masak Two: it's a psychological thing: when I look at the HTML output from p6w and notice that something has changed (as I did with the recent-changes change), I instinctively go "oh now, what has happened now?"
14:37 masak it's not a question about whether the change is good or bad, it's a question about which new dependencies it creates to the core and to the data model, and how that affects my half-formulated thoughts about the future of the wiki.
14:37 masak it's really not a good idea to be thinking like I do in an open-source project, and I think the cure is communication and agreement.
14:37 masak it would be nice if you'd turn up on IRC more often, for examlpe, ihrd
14:37 masak mail is a bit too slow for design talk.
14:37 masak EORAMBLE
14:38 p6eval joined #november-wiki
14:38 ihrd masak: ok, I commited changes for ::Storage and ::Storage::File
14:38 ihrd that about class Foo; and class Foo { ... }
14:38 masak aye.
14:38 masak goodie.
14:39 masak I think the former way of writing it is preferable, because one saves one level of indentation.
14:39 ihrd I learning English, today I understand English better then when we start to work
14:39 masak ihrd++
14:39 masak I should focus more on my Russian.
14:40 ihrd by the way it is still a complicated to my fast answer and fast (and right) understand some ome in IRC
14:41 masak ihrd: I understand that.
14:41 masak if it's writing that is the problem, please consider replying in Russian.
14:42 masak (but today, you seem to have had no problem at all, from my perspective.)
14:42 ihrd o, I just use dictionary :)
14:42 masak yes, that seems wise.
14:43 masak I will try to use words that can only mean one thing.
14:43 masak :)
14:43 ihrd but you are right :) I do not use google translate, this is progress :)))
14:43 masak 哈哈
14:44 ihrd ok, that`s just about why I dose not used IRC offen.
14:44 masak ihrd: re "her" in the tests, I understand the joke after your explanation. I think it's alright this time, but I would advise you to avoid strong words in code in the future. someone might get offended. :)
14:46 ihrd o, no, хер is not so strong word in Russian
14:46 masak ihrd: it means what, 'fuck'?
14:47 p6eval joined #november-wiki
14:47 ihrd hm... хуй -- fuck
14:47 ihrd but хер is old word
14:47 masak I think even a mild variant of 'fuck' might be offensive to some people.
14:48 masak I would not hesitate to edit away bad words in English, even mild ones.
14:48 ihrd may be. Dictionary  only know хер is old name for letter х
14:49 ihrd and game in another definition
14:49 ihrd game with X and 0
14:49 ihrd a think you no it
14:49 masak aye
14:49 masak tic-tac-toe
14:50 ihrd woow
14:50 masak or maybe 'five in a row', depends
14:50 ihrd be the way peoples use хер im phrase look like хер тебе it means
14:50 ihrd ...
14:51 ihrd something like "I do not do what you want"
14:52 ihrd with very strong position, and a offence
14:52 ihrd ok, I thing this is all about хер
14:53 ihrd excuse my if Insult you be using
14:53 ihrd another November-related question
14:53 ihrd I start to create save_page test
14:54 ihrd because I fix bug in it, and found we have no test for that
14:54 ihrd and I nedd all /data structure for that test
14:54 masak ihrd: you haven't insulted me. but I think my job is to care for the 'integrity' of the source code. all aspects of it.
14:55 masak ihrd: um. I don't think that tests should modify data/
14:55 masak that sounds wrong to me.
14:55 ihrd but as you now with index
14:55 masak um. that sounds wrong, too. :)
14:55 ihrd oh, of course, it use it`s own data
14:55 ihrd :)
14:56 masak ah.
14:56 masak oki, good.
14:56 masak just don't commit tempfiles to git, but ignore them instead.
14:56 ihrd you remove t/storage/data for index
14:56 masak s/ignore/git-ignore/
14:57 masak ihrd: yes, it kept showing up in my `git status`
14:57 ihrd yes, I just try to say exatcly this
14:57 masak nod.
14:57 ihrd brrr
14:57 masak cold? :)
14:57 ihrd we need dirs structure data
14:58 masak how so?
14:58 ihrd cold too
14:59 ihrd so, we need empty data dir, with empty articlse dir etc
14:59 ihrd but we cant do that in the git
14:59 ihrd so, we can create it, but it is platform-depended
15:00 ihrd mb we should just but blnk files in thet dirs? and do not remove it?
15:00 masak aye
15:00 ihrd but if we do so, we will in trouble if test falls without clean it
15:01 masak ihrd: that's why we should git-ignore the file too
15:01 ihrd we can do both?
15:01 masak sure.
15:01 masak ihrd: I just sent you a Christmas gift: it's a board game called Druid, implemented in Perl 6.
15:02 ihrd (  )
15:02 ihrd 8(  ) i mean
15:02 masak what does that mean?
15:04 ihrd Woooow!
15:04 masak :)
15:04 ihrd that is smile
15:04 masak I thought you'd like it :)
15:05 masak the game rules are copyrighted, otherwise I would have put it in the Pugs repo.
15:05 masak it's fun to play
15:06 ihrd you can see my eyes and how mach go down my jaw
15:06 masak aha.
15:06 ihrd hm... but how to play?
15:06 masak hold on.
15:06 ihrd I do not see help
15:06 masak http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/druid.html
15:06 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/4apdb
15:06 masak ihrd: the game is not exactly "done" yet.
15:06 masak for example, it doesn't check for winning conditions.
15:10 ihrd o, i reading manual
15:10 masak I've been trying to reach the game inventor and ask him if I can release the game under a free licence. so far, no reply.
15:12 ihrd it is bad, I hope he is answered
15:12 masak ihrd: I will find him somehow. maybe I just have old email addresses.
15:14 ihrd ok
15:15 ihrd I found in manual I can put three roks on two
15:15 masak aye, in some situations
15:15 ihrd does it implemented?
15:15 masak aye.
15:15 ihrd I need to put center last?
15:16 masak check out the method input_valid_move for details.
15:16 masak it contains a trick I inted to blog about.
15:16 masak ihrd: no, the syntax is 'b2-b4'
15:16 ihrd a!
15:17 ihrd yep, it is works
15:17 ihrd that is cool!
15:18 masak ihrd: I can reacomment reading through the whole source. I much enjoyed writing that, and found a few idioms along the way.
15:18 moritz_ in case you haven't followed p5p: chip proposed named params on subroutines for Perl 5.12
15:18 masak moritz_: ooh, 5.12.
15:18 masak moritz_: did anyone propose junctions and metaclasses? :)
15:19 moritz_ lol no, not seriously
15:22 ihrd we have junction in p5 as module
15:22 moritz_ which isn't maintained anymore
15:22 ihrd and meta in Moose :)
15:23 masak ihrd: da, ya znayu.
15:23 ihrd it is just works, when I try it
15:23 masak ihrd: what just works? Moose?
15:23 moritz_ Junctions are very nice, but they are low on my "Perl 6 features that I want to see ported to Perl 5" list
15:23 ihrd masak: хорошо
15:24 masak moritz_: I don't use Perl 5 very much in my daily work. I think I use Perl 6 more nowadays.
15:24 ihrd named param in p5 -- that is cool
15:25 ihrd I thing full signature too?
15:25 ihrd I see something like that in news, but I do not followed p5p
15:26 moritz_ they propose something similar to Method::Signatures in core
15:29 ihrd yes, I see that module. So that is cool
15:32 masak moritz_: I started in on S12 yesterday. I believe I can do much good there, both in the Perl 6 test suite and in the RT system.
15:33 masak my only real enemy right now is Lack of Time.
15:33 moritz_ masak: YaY
15:35 masak for example, I have to go in 20 minutes. :/
15:37 moritz_ :(
15:43 masak I'll be back before midnight, though.
15:45 masak ihrd, moritz_: in the meantime, ponder this idea. I've been thinking about turning the druid game into a distributed client. do you think it'd be a good idea to identify moves using a git-like system, e.g. SHA-1 hashkeys?
15:46 ihrd I thinking about using git for store data in my game
15:46 ihrd I think it is good idea
15:46 masak all the ongoing games'd be stored in a ~/.druid file, and starting the client with an SHA-1 key received, say, by mail, would be recognized as making a move in one of the games.
15:46 ihrd yes
15:46 moritz_ masak: nice idea. That way you can easily build a distributed database that collects all possible moves, and thus if you have enough players, they'll solve the game for you ;-)
15:47 masak moritz_: well, that is given that you don't factor in user details into the haskeys to make them truly unique :)
15:48 moritz_ aye ;)
15:48 masak (which I'd probably want to do, otherwise two identical games cannot be played at the same time)
15:50 * masak has to go
15:50 masak nice to talk to you both.
15:50 masak see you around.
16:19 ihrd left #november-wiki
19:35 Hellow joined #november-wiki
19:36 Hellow left #november-wiki
20:51 masak joined #november-wiki
20:52 * masak is back
20:59 masak jhorwitz++
22:07 moritz_ indeed
22:31 masak stevey: "I've found that JavaScript is a language that smart people like. It's weird, but I keep meeting really really smart people, folks who (unlike me) are actually intelligent, and they like JavaScript."
22:31 masak the same could be said for Perl 6, I sometimes feel.

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