Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2008-12-13

| Channels | #november-wiki index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:51 masak joined #november-wiki
14:10 ihrd joined #november-wiki
14:10 ihrd hi
14:10 zarah hi ihrd
14:12 masak hi ihrd
14:12 * masak is just about to sit down and write the proposal
14:13 masak ihrd: hey, let me paste what Jesse said on my previous grant application for Web.pm
14:13 masak > Right now, this doesn't feel like quite the right fit for a Perl 6 microgrant.
14:14 masak > We're looking for small, easily complete-able projects which have a high
14:14 masak > We're looking for small, easily complete-able projects which have a high
14:14 masak > applying to TPF for a "regular" grant on this one. Or if you get started with
14:14 masak > Web.pm and have a decent base to build on, I'd love to see you submit a
14:14 masak > feature or two as a microgrant project.
14:14 masak so,
14:15 masak Jesse is proposing two possible ways for us to apply for a grant.
14:15 masak 1. apply for a regular Perl grant
14:15 masak (more money, less likely to get them)
14:16 masak 2. start working on Web.pm, build some stuff and then apply for a Perl 6 microgrant for a subset of the featureset
14:16 masak I suggest we do (1), and if that grant is denied, we do (2).
14:16 ihrd hm. look like I not fully understand what is microgrant
14:17 masak ihrd: I'll find a link for you.
14:17 masak http://use.perl.org/articl​e.pl?sid=07/03/22/1542235
14:17 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/64g5pn
14:18 ihrd by the way I fell we should just do what we want -- start to make Web.pm
14:18 masak ihrd: of course. nothing stops us from starting today if we want.
14:19 masak fwiw, pmichaud said in a private conversation that he did think that Web.pm was worthy of a microgrant. but I don't think I told him exactly what Jesse wrote above.
14:19 ihrd I digging for good ideas in p5 frameworks, thinking.
14:19 masak ihrd++
14:20 masak ok, I'll start writing a grant application now. I'll be back in at most an hour with a draft.
14:23 ihrd I read your link, yes I agree with PM, look like microgrant exactly what we need.
14:23 masak aye. do you think that we should not apply for a regular Perl grant?
14:27 ihrd I do not know, really. I can expect many problems with Web.pm because Rakudo IO in very early stage. I think we should found what we really can, and this is a pert of work :)
14:27 ihrd s/pert/part/
14:28 masak here you can look at what regular grants were earlier accepted and completed: http://www.perlfoundation.org/grants
14:28 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/5n4gxv
14:29 masak I'd say if sm0p is worthy of a grant, then Web.pm is too.
14:30 ihrd I will do my best with micro or with bigger one grant :) I think we should trying all possible ways to have time for work with perl6.
14:30 masak nod.
14:31 * masak starts writing
14:31 ihrd thank you
14:33 ihrd I am going to sleep now. I will be back tomorrow. I will work on new-html-template.
14:33 masak cool.
14:33 ihrd bb
14:33 masak sleep well.
14:33 ihrd left #november-wiki
15:20 ihrd joined #november-wiki
15:20 ihrd hi, again
15:20 ihrd I jast can`t sleep
15:20 ihrd so I digg in Mojo
15:20 ihrd I found strange comment
15:21 masak :)
15:21 ihrd here http://search.cpan.org/src/SR​I/Mojo-0.9/lib/Mojo/Cookie.pm
15:21 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/5ofhoq
15:21 ihrd # My Homer is not a communist. # He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star.
15:21 ihrd I can`t understand it
15:21 ihrd mb it is a joke?
15:21 masak ihrd: I think it's a strange joke, yes.
15:21 masak I'm almost done with the draft.
15:22 ihrd O, send it on my email
15:22 masak ihrd: yes, I will. just going to finish it.
15:22 masak ihrd: the quote seems to be a Simpsons quote.
15:23 masak I don't see the relevance of it here though. maybe someone just likes that quote.
15:25 ihrd thank you, I like to see a little sense here
15:26 masak sense++
15:27 ihrd I said something wrong?
15:28 ihrd Look like Sebastian relly like Simpsons -- he use quotes in all Mojo components
15:28 masak not at all. I just agreed with you.
15:28 ihrd ok
15:28 masak that might be it. Larry Wall used to quote Tolkien in his Perl implementation code.
15:35 ihrd looks funy
15:36 ihrd do you now, can we transform Grammar tree somehow?
15:36 ihrd I mean do something with it after we ~~ it
15:37 ihrd Change Match object I mean?
15:38 ihrd It`s why I blocked in asterisk branch
15:40 masak ihrd: don't know if I understand exactly, but no, I don't think so.
15:40 masak it is really a question for #perl6 or p6l
15:40 masak ihrd: I'd like you to tell me more precisely why you blocked on the asterisk branch
15:42 ihrd Natural way for my -- modify issue nodes in tree
15:43 masak do you think you could provide a simple code example of this?
15:43 ihrd I implement trivial action for <plaintext>
15:43 masak it would be easier to see what you want to do then.
15:44 ihrd http://github.com/viklund/november/tr​ee/asterisk/p6w/HTML/Template/Act.pm
15:44 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/65emp7
15:45 ihrd You can see -- I stoped on if and for
15:46 masak ok.
15:46 masak yes, ISTR that.
15:46 masak why?
15:46 ihrd I think I can make thats using atrribute-flag for push something into out or not, but it is ugly for my
15:46 masak I don't think I understand the problem well enough yet.
15:47 ihrd I just stop, because I start to searching for more natural way to change tree
15:47 masak but it seems to me that if this technique can be used to parse Perl 6 in Rakudo, it can be used to parse HTML Templates :)
15:47 ihrd I do not now how that works in Rakudo now
15:47 ihrd Yes, I hope :)
15:47 masak ihrd: I don't like the idea of changing the tree.
15:48 masak I like when things flow in a straight line from input to output.
15:48 ihrd But I do not know how that done in it
15:48 masak when stuff needs to be modified, I see that as a bit of a failure.
15:50 masak the line 17 in Act.pm will be very common.
15:50 masak I'd suggest putting that into a method, and calling the method 'make' or something. :)
15:50 masak like in Rakudo.
15:52 ihrd for one line? I think make in Rakudo do something bigger :)
15:52 ihrd in Rakudo PGE produce AST
15:52 masak it probably does.
15:53 masak but even one line might be worth factoring out, if it shows intent.
15:53 masak I'm also thinking if gather/take can be used here.
15:55 ihrd mb. I do not see how right now
15:56 ihrd In my Act.pm now
15:56 ihrd palintext just added into $!out
15:57 masak gather/take is dynamic, which means that the gather can be in another method or even another class.
15:57 ihrd so, for if I should change that behavoir
15:57 masak I'm just making suggestions so far.
15:58 ihrd o. I am not about gather/take right now, I just trying to explain me old things about that
15:58 ihrd I do that slow, sorry
16:00 ihrd ... but with our HTML::Template grammar I just can`t catch if start and if end
16:02 ihrd ok. now I going to read gather/take specs
16:03 masak ihrd: I wish I understood better the thing that's blocking you in Act.pm
16:03 masak maybe I should just try it myself and see how far I get. :)
16:04 ihrd ok
16:05 masak rakudo: multi foo(&c where { .arity == 1 }) { say "One." }; multi foo(&c where { .arity == 2 }) { say "Two." }; foo({ $^a }); foo({$^a + $^b})
16:05 p6eval rakudo 33858: OUTPUT[One.␤Two.␤]
16:06 ihrd looking good
16:08 masak it's pretty powerful.
16:08 masak ihrd: now I will reply to your email.
16:10 ihrd 15 weeks, woow
16:11 masak too long? too short?
16:11 masak (I just made a guess based on what other grant proposals had asked for.)
16:11 ihrd too long, but look like you put really big goals to
16:12 ihrd Three web applications that make use of Web.pm.
16:12 ihrd Yes, that is can took so match time :)
16:13 masak I think three web apps is needed to get a feel for what is needed in Web.pm.
16:13 masak but they don't need to be big.
16:13 masak we have November, that's already in the works.
16:13 masak and then your blog idea.
16:13 masak and then something else, preferably something Javascript-rich.
16:25 ihrd excuse my, I rock to sleep my daughter
16:25 ihrd okay, I like ide to make blog
16:26 ihrd I have good name for that project, you know :)
16:26 ihrd I am not good in JS
16:26 ihrd and this is my next question
16:26 masak I've done some js.
16:26 ihrd AJAX hooks, what is it?
16:27 masak a hook is a way to connect to something.
16:27 masak usually a method in a base class that can be overridden.
16:27 ihrd we produce AJAX-rich sites, but I do not know what is AJAX hooks
16:28 masak ah. Ajax is the name for Javascrip + XmlHttpRequest.
16:28 masak s/Javascrip/Javascript/
16:28 ihrd I now what is it AJAX :)
16:28 masak good.
16:28 masak and a hook is simply a way to access something.
16:28 ihrd what you want to wright in perl6 for AJAX?
16:28 masak for example, svn has hooks for 'before-commit' and 'after-commit'
16:29 masak ...where developers can put their own actions.
16:29 ihrd yes, git has many hooks too
16:29 masak ihrd: I want to make it easy to make an Ajax-rich web application with Perl 6.
16:29 masak that's why hooks are needed, to connect Perl 6 and Ajax.
16:29 ihrd We just use JSON
16:30 ihrd and I can`t see what we miss here
16:30 masak it's more than that.
16:31 masak http://script.aculo.us/
16:31 masak http://jquery.com/
16:31 ihrd Your web-app just have action, JS call that action with same data, we send that another data for it...
16:31 ihrd We use Jquery
16:31 masak ihrd: we need to make it _easy_ to integrate Perl 6 and jQuery.
16:32 ihrd how???
16:32 masak that is still not known.
16:32 masak but if we manage that, we win.
16:33 ihrd I can`t found real problem here to resolve it
16:33 ihrd can you give my some links in p5 to look at?
16:34 masak not really.
16:34 masak I don't know if this type of application exists today.
16:34 masak it probably does, for example Slashdot uses some Javascript.
16:34 masak but not very much.
16:36 masak hm, I realise I'm talking hot air here...
16:37 masak but I really think there can be an easy way to integrate Javascript and Perl 6 in webapp development, so that using both together is easier than using them separately.
16:37 masak and I think that Web.pm can serve as the basis for that.
16:37 masak and I think that it would be really good for Perl 6 if it did, and did it well.
16:38 ihrd if you can`t found example in p5, I think we should remove that from the grant.
16:38 masak yes, you might be right.
16:38 masak we should only promise things we can keep.
16:39 ihrd I sow some examples of integration in that area,  no one use it at all.
16:39 masak do you have a suggestion for what to put there instead?
16:39 masak ihrd: aye. it's hard to predict what people will use.
16:39 masak at least in advance :)
16:44 ihrd I think we should focus on HTTP stack, REST. We can make some template engine...
16:45 ihrd CRUD for web-forms
16:45 masak good idea.
16:45 masak feel free to change the list accordingly.
16:46 ihrd We need FastCGI and test HTTP server, but we can done it without IO in Rakudo
16:46 ihrd can`t
16:46 masak ok.
16:46 masak might be good to tell the Rakudo team what we need.
16:49 ihrd how grants managed? I mean, we work 15 weeks, and if we success TPF send check?
16:50 masak I think it depends.
16:51 masak I saw some applicant suggest that money be sent monthly.
16:52 masak ...and be dependent on progress reports each month.
16:53 masak then there's the delicate question of how much money to ask for.
17:15 ihrd Stephen Weeks aka Tene? are that is one person? :)
17:19 ihrd Excuse me if I erroneously mix up
17:22 masak Stephen Weeks === Tene.
17:25 ihrd I think we need to meet and speech about that grant
17:25 masak maybe.
17:27 masak would IRC be enough, you think?
17:29 ihrd It is ok for me.
17:29 ihrd We just need to understand who can do what, and how many time cant spent.
17:30 ihrd Stephen is core parrot developer, yes?
17:30 masak I think so.
17:30 masak he is a regular on #parrot, at least.
17:33 masak I don't know when Tene will be around, but I will not be online so much tomorrow, but more next week.
17:36 ihrd ok
17:36 ihrd what about simple task manager and bug tracker as thrid app?
17:37 masak I like.
17:37 masak that is possibly js-rich as well.
17:37 ihrd yes, and we can use it in or work
17:38 ihrd I like dog foodm you know
17:39 ihrd oh. s/or/our/ and s/foodm/food,/
17:40 ihrd And I really need to sleep. 3:40 am :(
17:40 masak (dog food)++
17:40 masak ihrd: sleep well.
17:40 masak my sleeping cycle is totally screwed up as well right now.
17:41 masak I came home at 12:00 and decided to watch a movie.
17:41 Tene masak: I'm around whenever.  Just tell me when.
17:41 masak Tene: oh, cool.
17:41 masak let's make it sometime Monday then.
17:41 ihrd hi Tene!
17:41 Tene It's 10:41 AM Saturday for me right now.
17:41 Tene hi ihrd!
17:42 masak regardless of the outcome of this grant proposal, I think it'll be a good plan around which to structure our work on Web.pm
17:42 ihrd Sunday for my :)
17:43 masak aye :)
17:46 ihrd feel free to use my jabber, forihrd@gmail.com
17:47 ihrd I use it at work to, so you can find me all trough the day
17:47 ihrd bb
17:47 ihrd left #november-wiki
17:50 * Tene jabber = sweeks at gurulabs dot com
17:51 masak ok. my jabber address is cmasak at gmail dot com, but I'm never online unless I have a specific reason.
17:51 masak email is the best way to reach me.
17:51 masak I'll contact you both on Monday, one way or the other.
23:07 moritz_ joined #november-wiki

| Channels | #november-wiki index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary