Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2009-01-24

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Time Nick Message
10:15 masak joined #november-wiki
10:48 ihrd joined #november-wiki
10:48 ihrd hi
10:48 zarah hi ihrd
10:48 masak hello ihrd
10:49 ihrd masak: how are you?
10:50 masak it's the weekend. I'm good. :)
10:50 masak any you?
10:51 ihrd I am well
10:51 ihrd Do you see Tene?
10:51 masak not yet...
10:51 masak let me see if I can find the original conversation with him about the grant.
10:52 masak it would be interesting to see what we were talking about then.
10:52 masak logs++
10:52 ihrd ah, in English I should say, Did you see Tene, sorry
10:52 masak ihrd: I guessed your meaning. :)
10:53 masak my background allows me to guess such things.
10:54 ihrd yes, and this is good, but my English should be cleary :)
10:54 masak it'll be clearer with time, I'm sure.
10:55 ihrd thank you, I do my best
10:55 masak as you say yourself, you've been improving greatly in only a few months.
10:55 ihrd Did you read TPF article about grants?
10:56 masak hm... no, not yet. :/
10:56 masak I opened it in the browser, but I've had no time to read it.
10:56 masak yesterday was busy.
10:57 ihrd I mean http://news.perlfoundation.org/2009/0​1/2009q1_call_for_grants_proposa.html
10:57 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/7549f8
10:57 masak yes, that one.
10:58 masak I saw that the deadline is 31 January, as you said.
10:58 ihrd Yes
10:58 ihrd but I think we should sent propose on this hollydays
10:59 ihrd people in TPF nedd time to read and think about
10:59 masak the sooner the better, of course.
11:03 ihrd ok, let look at grant
11:03 ihrd I will do Maya, Routines, Template
11:03 ihrd I mean I see how I can do that
11:04 masak good.
11:04 ihrd I like REST
11:04 masak I will adapt November to whatever Web.pm level is appropriate. preferably the highest one, with MVC.
11:05 masak I see Web.pm as consisting of three levels or 'rungs'.
11:05 masak 1. very simple templating
11:05 masak 2. slightly more advanced templating
11:05 masak 3. MVC
11:05 masak and the programmer gets to decide the appropriate level.
11:05 masak and gets good defaults for that level.
11:06 ihrd so I will implement REST-resources shortcuts in Routines
11:06 masak is REST related to MVC, would you say?
11:06 masak or is it independent?
11:06 ihrd REST is about resources, and methods to interact with its
11:07 masak yes.
11:07 ihrd you have something like /post/:id
11:07 masak right.
11:07 masak so it's unrelated to MVC?
11:07 ihrd yes
11:08 masak I know what both REST and MVC are, roughly. just never thought about whether they have any connection.
11:08 ihrd REST helps as to orginize our Controllers
11:08 ihrd and our applications API
11:09 ihrd but REST just one way, users can use Web.pm and do not use REST
11:09 masak I was just about to ask that :)
11:09 masak do you see November using REST in the future?
11:10 ihrd yes, it is good way
11:10 masak good.
11:10 masak that's a topic both for the mailing list and this channel.
11:10 ihrd but November is your son, and you can prefer what you like
11:10 masak heh :)
11:11 masak I do like discussion, though.
11:12 masak I'm not 100% dictator, just 90% or so.
11:12 ihrd I think we should mail digest after
11:12 masak digest?
11:12 ihrd send digest of this dusscussion to the mail list
11:12 masak yes, maybe.
11:13 masak I'm a bit short on time right now, so I'm not sure if I'll have time to make a summary.
11:13 masak but simply linking to the discussion is easy. :)
11:14 ihrd okay
11:14 ihrd ah, and URI, I will work to make it adult
11:15 masak 'a grownup', yes.
11:15 masak sounds good.
11:16 masak I will focus on the three rungs of Web.pm, on forms and webapp things, and on making use cases work.
11:16 ihrd hm, I am reding our propousel "An XML-aware replacement for HTML::Template."
11:16 ihrd I still see Web::Template as simple text-base templater, withou XML parser
11:17 masak ihrd: yes, that sounds like it comes from my idea of adopting that Python module.
11:17 masak ihrd: ok.
11:19 ihrd hm and HTML::Template... I see more intresting goals now :)
11:19 masak what goals?
11:20 masak ah, Genshi. that's it. http://genshi.edgewall.org/wiki/GenshiTutorial
11:20 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/3caopv
11:20 masak I found that one really, really nice.
11:20 masak and I think it'd be a good idea to have that as the slightly more advanced templating solution in Web.pm.
11:20 ihrd I mean I really whant spent time to implement somthing new
11:21 masak look at the first XML example on that page. it's really pure. and I think that can be a good thing in many ways.
11:21 ihrd Yes and we speaked about that
11:21 masak I've never really liked HTML::Template's syntax.
11:21 ihrd I was read this tutorila
11:21 masak ah, good.
11:22 ihrd so, do you like to implement somthing like this?
11:22 masak oh yes!
11:22 masak very much.
11:23 masak I'm not sure I can do the MVC stuff very well, but I can take responsibility for rungs 1 and 2, the two templating engines.
11:23 masak (if you want to help, I don't mind. we can share tasks.)
11:25 ihrd So, I replace HTML::Template by Web::Template -- perlish template
11:26 masak I don't know what it will be called, but yes. might be good not to call it HTML::Template.
11:27 masak I figure rung 1 will be simpler than our current HTML::Template, and rung 2 will be more advanced.
11:28 ihrd I start to implement very simple templates in Maya repo, only first step
11:28 masak oki.
11:29 masak that sounds good, I prefer working code over elaborate designs.
11:29 masak I increasingly feel the weight of different modules residing in different repositories, by the way.
11:30 masak CPAN is a godsend, but one we don't have right now.
11:31 ihrd github is good place
11:31 masak yes.
11:31 masak but dependency handling is manual.
11:32 ihrd I thing apps should live in it`s one
11:32 ihrd but Web:: stuff can live in one repo
11:32 masak aye.
11:37 ihrd about deopendencies -- I thing we can relize apps as tar with all modules
11:38 masak 'release'?
11:38 masak yes, that's a good idea.
11:38 masak maybe even make it automatic through github's URIs somehow.
11:45 ihrd "Much of the provisional code currently residing in November will thereby move to either of the two modules." what you mean?
11:52 ihrd a u here?
11:52 masak yes, but doing other things.
11:53 masak best way to get my attention is to write 'masak'.
11:53 masak I meant,
11:53 masak that in the long run, CGI.pm will go away and not be a part of November itself.
11:53 ihrd I thinking about yet another app
11:53 masak oh, which one?
11:53 ihrd Are you sure we should create three app?
11:54 masak three seems a good number.
11:54 ihrd I mean I see a lot of work with November and Maya
11:54 masak I understand.
11:54 ihrd we can spent our time to make it better
11:54 masak maybe Tene would like his own app too? :)
11:55 ihrd ah, yes, mb.
11:56 masak but maybe we shouldn't _promise_ three apps in the grant applicaiont.
11:56 masak the important thing for the grant isn't that we make three apps, it's that we make Web.pm and HTTP.pm
11:56 masak but I think having three different apps would help towards that goal.
12:08 masak it seems that Druid will soon become a web app. surely it will also have use for Web.pm and HTTP.pm.
12:20 ihrd masak: good idea, about Druid
12:21 masak mberends is very eager to see it reach the web.
12:21 ihrd masak: I updated propousal
12:21 ihrd take a look plz
12:21 ihrd I cange and add a lot
12:21 masak and once we have that, I have a number of other games that I'd like to give the same treatment.
12:21 * masak takes a look
12:22 ihrd masak: I have long-term game project too
12:22 masak cool.
12:22 ihrd and this would be web-based strategy game
12:23 ihrd about me changes:
12:23 ihrd I add first step, 1 week, specifycation of basics
12:23 ihrd I change the cause of tutorial -- it about expr I think
12:24 masak sorry? didn't understand that last part.
12:24 ihrd and I put "pecifying the features desired for a modern Web.pm module" on the end
12:25 masak good.
12:25 ihrd sorry, I mean "Condensing the above experience into a tutorial"
12:25 ihrd You have another way, specification -> tutorial
12:26 ihrd experience -> tutorial looks better for me
12:26 masak ah.
12:26 masak yes.
12:26 masak however, a tutorial will need to be developed during the whole process.
12:26 masak do we request 3000$ total?
12:27 masak perhaps 1000$ each, then?
12:30 masak I'm editing the grant proposal now, but will need to re-read it at least once more before we send it.
12:30 masak just to see that everything looks good.
12:30 ihrd masak: this is time question, I do not know anything about you and Stephen time
12:31 masak hm, you're right.
12:31 masak I'd say 10h per week is not unreasonable for me.
12:31 masak that's 25% time. yes, that's reasonable.
12:31 ihrd I can spent 1/3 of week time
12:32 ihrd and I wrote about that
12:32 masak aye.
12:33 ihrd We can decrese time, if we exceed 3000$
12:33 masak applying the same calculation on my time, I can ask for 1200 $.
12:33 masak I'll write that.
12:34 ihrd we should speak weth Tene, If he whant to spent same time, we should decrease grant duration
12:34 masak aye.
12:35 ihrd and about tutorial: yes, we will develope it all time
12:36 ihrd but we will use this week at the end to make it more readeable and sync
12:37 ihrd and then "Specifying the features desired for a modern Web.pm module"
12:37 ihrd we can merge this two steps
12:38 masak ihrd: you mention "Maya" in the grant, but don't explain what it is. I'll add a short explanation.
12:38 ihrd tutorial + what we see as ideal for our framework
12:38 ihrd ah, yes, thank you
12:39 masak I removed all traces of the "other application" so far. better to add it later if we think we need it.
12:41 ihrd masak: I think we should arrange about dedline for sending this propousal
12:41 masak sure. Friday?
12:41 ihrd ah, no
12:41 masak running the calculation backwards, there are 3h/week left for Tene.
12:42 ihrd Monday
12:42 masak ok, Monday.
12:42 masak I'll write 3h/week for him. and ask him via mail and by IRC if this is fine with him.
12:42 ihrd 26 of January I mean
12:42 masak yes.
12:44 ihrd masak: can you send SMS to me when Stephen come in, and you are ready for disscussion?
12:45 masak you mean so that the three of us can discuss? um, I have some difficulty sending SMSes.
12:45 masak I don't have a mobile phone.
12:46 masak I can send an email, or a ping via Skype.
12:46 ihrd I really want to do that grant, and I feel we should speak about that and fit all stuff
12:46 masak yes.
12:46 ihrd ah, yes
12:46 masak I like that you take a leading role in finalizing the grant proposal.
12:46 masak just remember that there's a significant change that we'll be redirected back to the "Perl 6 Microgrants".
12:47 masak because I really do think that those are more appropriate for this.
12:47 masak but it's good to be writing grants, getting the exercise.
12:48 ihrd Microgrants is about Microthings, but web f/w is a big one
12:49 ihrd I hope TPF found our propousal intresting
12:49 masak yes, we just need to be clear and concise.
12:49 ihrd and it is chance for me to do something biger with Perl6
12:50 masak aye.
12:50 masak ihrd++
12:54 ihrd masak: about SMS, you can send it be Internet
12:54 masak ihrd: no, not without a mobile phone.
12:54 ihrd http://www.megafondv.ru/prim/sms/
12:54 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/abthxl
12:54 ihrd just use web-form
12:54 masak what's your number?
12:54 ihrd my phone 125 40 53
12:55 ihrd this is for free
12:55 ihrd sorry, I thing should by the some service in English
12:56 masak see if you get the one I just sent you.
12:57 ihrd no. do you fill captcha?
12:57 masak yes, sure.
12:58 ihrd mb some lag
12:58 masak or it didn't work. :)
12:59 ihrd it works, I send one right now and recive after 1/2 of second
12:59 ihrd do you see Ваше сообщение помещено в очередь на отправку.
13:00 ihrd after submit?
13:00 masak not sure, I'll try again.
13:00 ihrd and form should gone
13:01 masak "Ваше сообщение помещено в очередь на отправку."
13:01 masak aye.
13:03 ihrd hm. mb this service do not like forigeon IPs :(((
13:04 masak might be.
13:05 masak with SMSes, I've learned that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
13:05 ihrd ;)
13:05 ihrd I do not like it too
13:06 ihrd btw it is fast we to let me know something
13:06 ihrd okay, email still be here
13:06 ihrd there
13:06 ihrd hm
13:07 ihrd (I think in English I should say "still be there", yes?)
13:09 masak "email is still there" or "email is still an option", I think.
13:13 masak in "Controller code organization", is it OK if I write "controller" with a miniscule "c"?
13:20 ihrd masak: aye
13:21 masak ok, I've done a lot of minor updates.
13:21 masak I like the proposal as it is now, and would consider it done after Tene has given his blessing.
13:29 ihrd masak: good! I will re-read it tomorrow, now I need to go
13:29 ihrd bb
13:29 ihrd left #november-wiki
15:51 ihrd joined #november-wiki
15:52 ihrd masak: hi :) I am back
15:52 masak hello. :)
15:52 ihrd Do you speak with Tene?
15:53 masak no. pinged him on #perl6, no reply. just sent an email.
15:53 ihrd I just see requested amout, in our propousal and wondered
15:54 masak that addition was mine.
15:54 masak it's counting backwards from 3000$.
15:54 ihrd Stephen would be confused, I think
15:54 masak you might be right.
15:55 masak I'll remove it.
15:55 ihrd I will do that
15:55 masak oh, you're editing already. ok.
15:55 ihrd I start to make some changes
15:56 ihrd We should have cleared, what he expect, mb we should just change duration to fit in 3000$
15:57 masak aye.
15:58 masak if we haven't heard from him before Monday, I think it's reasonable to go ahead without him.
15:58 masak it's just a grant.
16:00 ihrd I hope Stephen`s Rakudo development background can helps us a lot with this grant
16:00 ihrd But without communication we just cant work, yes
16:02 masak with November, I have had very positive results just talking to pmichaud and jonathan.
16:03 masak they are usually highly responsive to requests and bugfix prioritizations.
16:10 ihrd masak: yes, I was speaking a lot with Jonathan
16:11 masak of course, if there's anything _specific_ that we need for Web.pm or HTTP.pm, it'll be good to have a dedicated Rakudo hacker like Tene.
16:11 ihrd and he always found time to help me with perl6-related topics
16:11 masak yes, jonathan rocks.
16:12 ihrd I do not speak with PM, mb because I was meet Jonathan in real, but PM not :)
16:13 masak heh.
16:13 masak pmichaud is very nice too. I met both of them in August.
16:14 masak I think pmichaud has actually fixed more urgent bugs for me lately.
16:16 ihrd I still have some confused about PGE, PM do not answered or mb I miss something, I will recheck this behavoir with ? and send another one email
16:17 masak sounds good.
16:17 masak you can always ask on #perl6 or here as well.
16:17 masak might actually be easier to get answers that way.
16:18 masak I found something strange yesterday:
16:18 masak rakudo: grammar G { regex TOP { ^ } }; G.parse(""); say $/.WHAT; say $/ ~~ Match
16:18 p6eval rakudo 35948: OUTPUT«Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!␤C file src/gc/memory.c, line 141␤Parrot file (not available), line (not available)␤␤We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on␤Parrot.  Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an␤e-mail to
16:18 p6eval ..parrot-p...
16:18 masak um.
16:20 masak rakudo: grammar G { regex TOP { ^ } }; G.parse(""); say $/.WHAT; say $/ ~~ Match
16:20 p6eval rakudo 35948: OUTPUT«Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!␤C file src/gc/memory.c, line 141␤Parrot file (not available), line (not available)␤␤We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on␤Parrot.  Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an␤e-mail to
16:20 p6eval ..parrot-p...
16:20 masak this only happens here and on #perl6, not at #parrot.
16:20 masak strange.
16:21 masak anyway,
16:21 masak the one-liner produces "G\n0\n" on the latest Rakudo.
16:49 ihrd masak: sorry, I was rock to sleep my child
16:49 ihrd realy strange
16:49 masak it's ok, I'm doing other things as well today.
16:49 masak I'm writing an essay in Chinese.
16:49 ihrd ah, I need to go, bb, see you tommorow!
16:49 masak :)
16:49 ihrd left #november-wiki

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