Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2009-02-09

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:36 Tene joined #november-wiki
05:10 masak joined #november-wiki
07:47 viklund joined #november-wiki
08:20 szabgab joined #november-wiki
08:30 masak OH HAI
08:30 zarah saluton masak
08:31 masak saluton :)
08:35 viklund ohla
08:35 szabgab hi
08:35 zarah privet szabgab
08:35 szabgab anyone tried to install Perl6::Conf ?
08:35 szabgab any feedback on what to improve in the distribution/installation ?
08:35 viklund sry, not yet...
08:37 szabgab I'd like to make sure it works as smooth as possible today and then convince you to rename HTML::Template and release it
08:37 szabgab "today" I mean with the current state of Parrot/Rakudo
08:37 viklund ;) I'll try it as soon as Alva has her morning nap
08:38 viklund in an hour or so...
08:38 szabgab thanks
08:56 viklund szabgab: the pod seems broken somehow, http://search.cpan.org/~szabgab/P​erl6-Conf-0.03/lib/Perl6/Conf.pm
08:56 zarah viklund's link is also http://tinyurl.com/ap82qd
08:56 viklund anyway, I'll try to install it...
08:57 szabgab viklund, yes, it is perl 6 pod and search.cpan apparently cannot yet handle it
08:58 szabgab I sent an e-mail about it to Graham Bar asking him to look at it
09:00 viklund ;)
09:00 viklund my cpan mirror hasnt mirrored you module yet...
09:01 szabgab ouch, I have a minicpan on my computer
09:02 masak szabgab: I don't think HTML::Template should be renamed.
09:03 moritz_ szabgab: to what do you think it should be renamed?
09:05 szabgab uh oh
09:05 masak we try to name modules in November according to what they would have been called on CPAN.
09:05 szabgab I'd love to see it on CPAN but you cannot upload it as HTML::Template
09:06 masak I'm not sure I'd love to see it on CPAN, even :)
09:06 masak it's just a throwaway replacement for the real HTML::Template!
09:07 masak but maybe I have to high standards about what deserves to go on CPAN.
09:07 viklund masak: I think so
09:07 szabgab so call it Acme::HTML::Template
09:07 viklund lol
09:07 szabgab Acme6::
09:07 masak an interesting question is whether Perl 6's author and version tags would solve the name collision.
09:07 viklund hmm, I don't think that HTML::Template is that obscure, though
09:08 masak obscure?
09:08 masak maybe HTML::Template::Perl6, then.
09:08 szabgab I think we should start uploading modules to CPAN and step by step solve all the issue
09:08 masak aye. it's more or less inevitable.
09:08 szabgab it would be easier if all the - temporary - perl 6 packages would be in the same namespace
09:09 szabgab Perl6:: is partially taken bu some Perl5 code
09:09 masak I don't like to encourage prefixing modules with Perl6::
09:09 szabgab but the other choice I though about P6:: is not that nice
09:09 masak it sends the wrong message.
09:09 masak same complaint about P6::
09:09 szabgab why wrong?
09:09 masak because:
09:10 masak a module being written in Perl 6 should not be that different from a module being written in Perl 5.8 or Perl 5.10. specifically, it shouldn't be restricted to only a part of CPAN.
09:10 szabgab I think we should name them so only until we can start to rename them back to their real name
09:11 szabgab and that requires either a whole new CPAN
09:11 szabgab or to chnage PAUSE and CPAN and maybe the rest of the toolchain
09:11 masak szabgab: renaming modules after the fact is not that easy.
09:11 masak once the name is established, other modules will depend on it.
09:12 szabgab yeah, so you keep the old name around for some time
09:12 masak IMHO, it's important to get this right from the start.
09:12 moritz_ and we don't want to write only throwaway softare in Perl 6
09:12 moritz_ we'd just feed all prejudices
09:12 viklund szabgab: anyway, installing Perl6::Conf worked seamlessly (once PARROT_DIR was set) through cpan...
09:12 szabgab I mean anyone using Perl 6 today has to remember that it is still eperimental
09:13 szabgab experimental
09:13 masak if someone told me that HTML::Template from November would be the first thing that ended up on CPAN, I'd have thought twice about writing it...
09:13 szabgab and a rename is just one kind of deprecation
09:14 szabgab I think you are too worried :-)
09:14 masak szabgab: I'd like it better if we put Perl 6 modules all over CPAN. that gives more of the right impression. and we won't have to rename them afterwards.
09:14 viklund masak: what about completely renaming HTML::Template
09:15 masak szabgab: of course I'm worried! you're about to upload the least stable part of November to CPAN, in the least long-term way.
09:15 masak viklund: fine by me.
09:15 viklund and then we can upload it to CPAN without name-collision issues at least, that it's unstable isn
09:15 viklund isn't that big of an issue I think
09:16 masak also, I plan to put all modules in p6w/ into p6w/lib/ (probably today), because that is established practice in Perl 6 projects.
09:16 masak viklund: I agree.
09:16 masak but I don't think Perl6::HTML::Template is it.
09:16 viklund no, maybe Giraffe?
09:16 masak HTML::Template::Perl6 or something like that conveys its function better.
09:16 szabgab if you upload it as HTML::Template
09:17 szabgab PAUSE won't index it (hopefully)
09:17 viklund HTML:Giraffe
09:17 szabgab so it won't interfere with normal CPAN.pm installations
09:17 masak viklund: it hardly deserves a trademark-like name! it's a partial, ugly, broken version of the Perl 5 HTML::Template.
09:17 viklund HTML::BrokenTemplate ;)
09:17 szabgab we can ask for a separate indexing method specifically for perl6 packages
09:17 masak worksforme
09:18 masak szabgab: I think PAUSE should index it.
09:18 masak szabgab: I think in all regards, we should treat Perl 6 as just another version of Perl.
09:19 masak it's not the end of the world (or CPAN), it's just Perl 6.
09:19 szabgab but that will mean that noone will be able to install it
09:19 viklund szabgab: ??
09:19 szabgab or rather, everyone will install the perl6 version and not the perl5 version
09:19 viklund ahh
09:20 masak yes, that's not good.
09:20 viklund HTML::SimpleTemplate maybe?
09:20 szabgab currently cpan only knows about one dimension, version number of themodule
09:20 masak szabgab: so we'll rename it.
09:20 masak szabgab: you have to keep up :)
09:20 szabgab in order to support both perl5 and perl6 we need at least 2 dimensions
09:20 masak szabgab: today's quote. :)
09:21 moritz_ Perl6:HTML::Template and Perl5:HTML::Template
09:21 szabgab yes, rename is what I suggested too
09:21 viklund another problem with putting it as a cpan module though is that it gets installed in the perl5/ directories
09:21 szabgab we just did not agree on the name :-)
09:21 masak viklund: HTML::FuglyTemplate
09:21 moritz_ but neither Rakudo nor perl5 support that syntax yet
09:21 viklund HTML::FUD
09:21 masak moritz_: I like the idea, but as you say, it can't be done right now.
09:21 szabgab masak, what is today's quote ?
09:22 masak HTML::Template::Grammar
09:22 masak szabgab: 'in order to support both perl5 and perl6 we need at least 2 dimensions'
09:22 masak szabgab: it sounded like a profound statement about the physics of Perl. :)
09:22 szabgab ah
09:23 masak HTML::Template::Using::Grammars
09:23 masak HTML::Template::Grandma
09:23 viklund lol
09:23 masak viklund: I thought you'd like that :)
09:23 szabgab my point is that we should start uploading to cpan in a way that works now and fix parts of the process as we goo
09:23 szabgab go
09:23 szabgab I believe - if the other parties also help - we can figure out most of it in a few weeks
09:24 masak szabgab: sure. just trying to avoid the incorrigible mistakes. :)
09:24 szabgab Andreas has fixed PAUSE
09:24 viklund HTML::Tmplt
09:24 szabgab So just put big signs on the pod of your code that it is temporary name
09:24 szabgab noone will be able to read it anyway
09:25 masak HTML::Template::Fugly
09:25 szabgab as search.cpan does not yet support perl6 pod :-(
09:25 szabgab so that's one of the other steps we need to get straight
09:25 masak they should use mberend's Pod:: modules.
09:25 masak s/mberend's/mberends'/
09:26 szabgab oh I suggested the Perl6::Perlpod of Damian
09:26 szabgab but I don't know anyway
09:26 masak I think that might be out-of-date, but I don't know.
09:26 viklund is there anyway of controlling the installation process so that the module wont get installed in the perl6 directories?
09:27 viklund Perl6::Conf now resides in /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0/ on my computer
09:28 masak hm, I get 'PARROT_DIR needs to be defined and has topoint to the checked out trunk of Parrot' here
09:28 viklund anyway, Alva just woke up.
09:28 masak (note the misspelled 'topoint', should be 'to point')
09:29 masak szabgab: I do have PARROT_DIR set, but I still get the error.
09:29 szabgab masak, what os ?
09:29 viklund masak: are you sure you have it set?
09:29 masak szabgab: darwin.
09:29 szabgab viklund, you can configure CPAN.pm to do so but then all your modules will be installed in that other place
09:30 masak viklund: $ echo $PARROT_DIR
09:30 masak /Users/masak/work/hobbies/parrot
09:30 szabgab perl -e'print $ENV{PARROT_DIR}'
09:30 viklund masak: run this in cpan: '! print $ENV{PARROT_DIR}'
09:30 masak szabgab: that also gives the right dir.
09:31 masak viklund: checking.
09:31 masak viklund: strangely, _that_ fails.
09:31 masak says 'undefined value'
09:31 viklund there you go, I had the same error first, then I sudoed first and after that defined the PARROT_DIR and then went into cpan...
09:32 * viklund writes before he thinks
09:32 masak viklund: ah.
09:32 viklund ie 'sudo bash'...
09:33 masak viklund: I solved it differently. I just re-exported PARROT_DIR from the shell I was in (no sudo)
09:33 masak szabgab: I can report success on installing Perl6::Conf
09:34 szabgab great
09:34 szabgab I'll start to require RAKUDO_DIR as well from next version to let people put parrot inside rakudo
09:34 masak szabgab: great.
09:35 masak szabgab: thanks for the great work with CPAN so far. I feel it complements proto in a nice way.
09:35 szabgab and I'll try to learn a bit more git and put the code on github
09:35 masak great!
09:35 masak then I can add your module to proto :)
09:35 szabgab masak, that reminds me we should work out how can one module check available dependencies
09:36 masak szabgab: right. aye.
09:36 szabgab I say we could write that in Perl 6
09:37 szabgab and include it with every Perl 6 distro, at least for now
09:37 szabgab so that might be something coming out from proto
09:37 masak szabgab: proto will just keep a file somewhere with a list of installed projects.
09:37 szabgab then Makefile.PL would call it
09:37 masak something on the order of a hash from names to directories.
09:38 szabgab then I think it is not what I wanted
09:38 viklund isn't it possible to get the perl6 code to be installed somewhere else by using something other than Module::Build (or maybe configure it somehow from within the module)?
09:38 masak szabgab: ok. what was it you wanted?
09:38 masak viklund: sounds reasonable.
09:38 masak I'd like the 'configure it' option better, of course.
09:38 szabgab reasonable request but I am not sure you can do it
09:39 szabgab without a change to CPAN.pm
09:39 szabgab of course that's then what we need to do
09:39 szabgab write a CPAN::Perl6 or so extension
09:40 szabgab that will have its own configuration values
09:40 szabgab to know where to install Perl modules
09:40 szabgab Perl 6 modules
09:41 szabgab the question, how will CPAN.pm recognize it is a Perl 6 package ?
09:41 moritz_ szabgab: by parsing META.yml
09:41 moritz_ szabgab: it requires perl => 6
09:41 masak szabgab: have you thought about creating dependencies to parrot? http://search.cpan.org/dist/parrot/
09:41 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/c3k4yc
09:41 szabgab I think that would imply that the current CPAN.pm won't install it at all
09:42 szabgab masak, I think it is too early to really depend on Parrot
09:42 szabgab as I understand you cannot actually install Parrot
09:42 masak szabgab: and maybe not the right course of action anyway. nvm.
09:42 szabgab it is on CPAN only as a way to get the file out
09:43 szabgab yeah, the whole dependency on Rakudo is also temporary
09:43 szabgab after all in the end this whole thing should just know about the the current perl6 it is running inside
09:44 Tene_ joined #november-wiki
09:46 viklund isn't depending on perl6 a good way of putting it out? That means we block ordinary CPAN installations. We don't want ppl to install it in perl5 dirs anyway. And then we can somehow use proto to install it instead.
09:46 szabgab no
09:47 viklund just a thought
09:47 szabgab if we say we depend on v6 then the whole CPAN process (currently running in Perl 5) will stop
09:47 viklund yes
09:47 viklund that was the point
09:47 szabgab currently for us, perl 6 is an external dependency
09:48 szabgab yeah but I don't want to implement CPAN.pm in Perl 6 , not yet :-)
09:48 viklund ahh, but we can then use proto to trick CPAN.pm *nudge* *nudge*
09:48 szabgab if we had a CPAN client running in rakudo already then that was the solution
09:49 szabgab and that should be our aim
09:49 viklund the hack would be to with proto change the dependency...
09:49 * viklund has a sock-eater at home
09:50 masak viklund: say hello to your sock-eater from me. :)
09:51 viklund szabgab: yes, so if we depend now on v6 we make sure it's not mixed up and we are prepared for the rakudo CPAN.pm
09:51 szabgab is the sock-eater your kid ?
09:51 viklund szabgab: yep
09:51 szabgab how old ?
09:51 viklund 9 months
09:52 szabgab nice!
09:53 masak yes, good job!
09:53 szabgab I don't understand the process then. I'd include perl => 6 in META.yml and then what ?
09:53 szabgab CPAN.pm downloads it, opens it and blows up
09:53 viklund http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid​=248893&l=00940&id=1134468212
09:53 zarah viklund's link is also http://tinyurl.com/cau9rs
09:54 masak viklund: http://xkcd.com/531/
09:54 szabgab he, right ?
09:54 viklund szabgab: yes, but if we instead use proto to download it, we can check the dep, change it and then install it somewhere else?
09:54 viklund girl
09:54 szabgab :-)
09:55 szabgab I should never ask that way
09:55 szabgab so is she also consuming your books ?
09:55 viklund szabgab: trying to, I have some books she's allowed to consume
09:56 szabgab viklund, sure, but that means proto is a CPAN client in perl 6 already, right ?
09:56 masak "books fit for child consumption"
09:56 viklund szabgab: yep
09:56 viklund kind of
09:56 szabgab sure, that would be nice
09:56 viklund I think that was the goal with proto anyway, to download and install parrot, rakudo and perl6 modules. Right?
09:57 szabgab our kids went through 2 encyclopedias
09:57 szabgab before we switched to wikipedia
09:58 masak viklund: yes, but primarily the latter.
09:58 szabgab oh wait, I thought proto was written in perl 6
09:59 masak szabgab: not the bootstrapping code.
09:59 masak that'd be stupid. :P
09:59 szabgab sure, I did not know it also fetches parrot and rakudo
09:59 masak szabgab: you should check it out.
10:00 masak https://github.com/masak/proto
10:00 szabgab yeah,
10:00 szabgab I have it on my disk
10:00 szabgab but I should more look after Padre now
10:00 szabgab as it has nearly stopped in the past few weeks
10:00 szabgab and I should look after my $trainings as well
10:01 masak szabgab: it's good that we discuss this, at least.
10:01 szabgab or I won't have anything to feed my kids
10:01 masak szabgab: you feed your kids with $trainings?
10:01 szabgab yep,
10:01 masak :)
10:01 szabgab on both accounts :-)
10:08 viklund I'm taking Alva for a walk now, see you later
10:10 masak o/
10:11 viklund \o
14:54 masak yay, I've finally implemented ul lists!
14:54 masak I'm not proud of the solution, but perhaps it's enough to know that it'll probably be all right in the end.
15:18 Tene joined #november-wiki
15:25 viklund masak++
15:25 viklund
15:28 masak viklund: we can merge tomorrow, perhaps.
15:28 viklund masak: sounds good
15:28 masak oops, I just implemented ol lists too.
15:28 viklund ;)
15:28 masak it's tricky, but I'm shrewd. :P
15:29 masak and I use sunglasses so as not to go blind from the code I write.
15:29 * moritz_ bets masak used a fair amount of closures
15:29 masak moritz_: how did... did not! :P
15:30 masak actually, I have a slight penchant for putting closures in lexical variables. it's like a kind of sub-in-a-sub pattern.
15:33 masak for anyone wearing sunglasses: http://github.com/viklund/nov​ember/commits/mediawiki-lists
15:33 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/bmtssu
20:17 zarah joined #november-wiki
20:19 viklund xb
21:50 Tene_ joined #november-wiki
23:38 Tene joined #november-wiki

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