Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2009-03-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
01:58 Tene joined #november-wiki
04:58 Tene_ joined #november-wiki
05:11 masak joined #november-wiki
06:46 ihrd joined #november-wiki
06:48 ihrd OH HAI!
06:48 zarah oh hai ihrd
06:48 ihrd I am found our grant founded right now
06:48 ihrd http://news.perlfoundation.org/20​09/03/2009q1_grants_results.html
06:49 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/dfy7zc
06:51 ihrd masak, Tene_: we are faced with the big work :)
06:52 masak aye :)
06:53 masak I think I should reply about the naming thing.
06:53 masak personally, I find nothing wrong with the name 'Web'.
06:54 masak and I don't think outsiders are necessarily in a position to determine if it's the right name for a Perl 6 web module.
06:54 masak but I agree that it might be problematic, and I think we should discuss it on #perl6.
06:54 masak and then make a decision based on that discussion.
07:05 ihrd masak: "Web" -- okay for me
07:05 masak ihrd: aye, for me too.
07:06 masak ihrd: do you understand the fears of the people saying that it would be 'opinionated'?
07:07 ihrd actually no
07:07 masak ok. I do, so allow me to explain. :)
07:07 ihrd for my It is just short and logical name
07:08 masak these people are people used to CPAN, where when you decide on a name, that name is taken FOREVER.
07:08 ihrd this is first web-framework in perl6, so we take simplest name :)
07:08 masak if it's a bad module, it's basically a wasted good name.
07:09 masak these people believe that if we take such a good name, we have to make a _really_ good module.
07:09 ihrd if our framefork will by bad, we just rewright it
07:09 masak ihrd: I love your belief in our ability. :)
07:10 ihrd and I`m sure we will do rewrite it, because a lot of good projects I know rewrited
07:10 masak ihrd: it's like this: there are many ways we could go wrong in this, and our product will be unusable for future Perl 6 programmers.
07:11 masak I acknowledge this -- we are going to make mistakes, and they might even be fatal.
07:11 ihrd I do not belive we make Web.pm ideal for the first attempt
07:11 masak agreed.
07:11 masak we will approach this by trial and error.
07:11 masak or rather, wise empiricism.
07:13 ihrd and at last, people who woried about 'they take good name, but make bad module' always can send patches, and start to commit better code
07:14 masak ihrd: aye, and that works because we're not on CPAN yet.
07:14 masak ihrd: my point is that the poeple who complain about the name tend to forget that.
07:14 ihrd I like how Ruby community do -- Rails + Merb = Rails 3, cooperation!
07:14 masak :)
07:14 masak is Merb also Rack-powered?
07:15 ihrd yes
07:15 ihrd and Rails 3 will be Rack-powered too
07:15 * masak really likes Rack
07:15 masak I think we should steal it.
07:15 ihrd I need to read more about it
07:16 masak I'll try to make a writeup today about my/our plans, and push it to the Web repo.
07:16 ihrd I still do not see how it works inside
07:16 masak ihrd: hang on, I'll send you a good link.
07:16 masak http://rubymanor.org/videos/rack/
07:16 ihrd okay
07:16 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/9cysqs
07:17 masak zarah: you are a smart girl.
07:17 zarah masak: I'm so smart I scare myself. Over.
07:18 ihrd my internet connection is slow, can I donwload this video?
07:18 masak hm, maybe.
07:18 masak I'll check.
07:19 ihrd argh. my ff die when it trying to open it
07:19 masak apologies.
07:20 masak aye, it's downloadable from this page: http://www.slideshare.net/danwron​g/8-minutes-on-rack-presentation
07:21 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/63hqv8
07:21 ihrd thank you!
07:22 ihrd pm RPN calculator looks good
07:22 masak sorry?
07:22 ihrd ah, but thisi is just presentation
07:22 ihrd I will try to found video
07:22 ihrd I http://use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/38580
07:23 zarah ihrd's link is also http://tinyurl.com/d7bm67
07:25 masak ihrd: 'try to find', not 'try to found'. 'found' is a verb meaning, for example, 'to create a foundation/association/company'.
07:25 masak I don't often correct you, but here there's a real risk of misunderstanding. :)
07:25 ihrd yes, sorry
07:25 masak no problem. keep writing English, it's going great!
07:26 ihrd I do not use English about 2 weeks and lost my shape :)
07:26 masak ah, nice RPN calculator. quite idiomatic Perl 6.
07:26 masak tsss :)
07:27 ihrd yes!
07:27 ihrd I like methods on topic
07:27 ihrd I do not exactly why
07:27 masak I like methods on topic too.
07:27 ihrd but I like ol that .method; .method: 'fooo'; .yet_another_method
07:27 masak but I often confuse .foo with self.foo :/
07:27 Tene_ especially nice with given {}
07:27 masak I'm a bit skeptical to using invocant colon, ever :)
07:28 masak I think it confuses the code.
07:34 ihrd hm, I like to use it when it help my to avoid parentheses inside parentheses
07:34 masak ihrd: viklund and I had a fairly hard-to-track-down logical bug in November because of a colon once.
07:35 ihrd in my code I think
07:35 masak might be.
07:35 masak even before that, I thought they were unnecessary. but that really turned me off them.
07:35 ihrd plz explain my, what happend
07:35 masak I think parentheses are much clearer.
07:35 masak ihrd: I'll try.
07:35 masak but I don't remember exactly.
07:36 masak maybe if I find the commit...
07:36 ihrd can you find related commits?
07:36 masak I'll try. hold on.
07:43 masak aye, found the commit. it's 0d9df05.
07:44 masak see the second chunk, the one with 'CONTENT =>'.
07:45 masak so, what happened was that we didn't see the colon, and the link_maker and extlink_maker arguments went to read_page instead of .format
07:46 masak ...and as I said, we realized this after rubbing our eyes in disbelief for the better part of an hour. :)
07:46 masak somehow the args were defined when we sent them in to the method, but not when they got there! :)
07:57 ihrd sorry, I hang up with some work-related stuff
07:57 masak ok. no problem.
07:57 ihrd back now and read irc log
07:58 ihrd ah, I see
07:59 ihrd but I thing this is happend only because you do not expect colon here
08:00 ihrd this is my code
08:00 ihrd mb you see my blog post about that notation
08:01 masak no. URL?
08:01 ihrd $minimal.format($.storage.read_page: $page) better then $minimal.format($.storage.read_page($page)) for my
08:02 ihrd but looks like it my own whim
08:02 masak ok. I understand your reasons, but I prefer to be consistent and use only parentheses.
08:05 ihrd I hope this is not code standard
08:06 masak no, it's just a personal preference of mine.
08:10 ihrd do TPF send any instruction to you?
08:10 ihrd about grant
08:10 ihrd who will be our grant manager?
08:11 masak Adrian Howard.
08:12 ihrd nice name :)
08:21 masak ihrd: I just forwarded you and Tene_ the emails about it. I didn't see before that they were only sent to me.
08:27 ihrd ok
08:29 ihrd too vague name.. hm
08:31 ihrd what is GC?
08:31 ihrd GC members?
08:31 moritz_ grant commitee
08:31 masak "Grant Committee", I guess.
08:32 masak moritz_++ # draws the fastest
08:32 ihrd Ah, yes
08:32 ihrd thank you both
08:32 moritz_ masak++ # better spelling ;-)
08:33 masak moritz_: I have a rule for that specific word: two m's, two t's and two e's. :)
08:33 ihrd )
08:33 ihrd hm.. mb Muagamba?
08:35 masak sorry, what?
08:37 ihrd just joke, another vague name
08:37 masak ah, ok. :)
09:03 masak ok, I just pushed an early PLAN file to the web repo.
09:04 masak my work will mainly focus on that file this week, preparing runnable example code that I think will work on top of different layers of Web.
09:04 masak comments welcome on the (very little) text I have written so far.
11:34 ihrd left #november-wiki
12:44 moritz_ masak: care to add me as a commiter to html-template?
12:44 moritz_ (I can also fork if you prefer that workflow)
13:06 p6eval joined #november-wiki
14:05 Tene joined #november-wiki
14:28 masak moritz_: I don't mind adding you as a committer, but let's try the fork/pull request thing if that's ok by you. I need the practice. :)
15:08 p6eval joined #november-wiki
15:21 moritz_ masak: ok
15:39 p6eval joined #november-wiki
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15:47 p6eval joined #november-wiki
15:55 p6eval joined #november-wiki
18:53 Tene_ joined #november-wiki
19:20 PerlJam joined #november-wiki
19:21 PerlJam greeble.
19:22 masak hoj.
19:22 * PerlJam reads the backlog
19:22 PerlJam Rack is nice (as is rails 3)  There's some good to be copied from there.
19:24 * masak is really happy today from all the discussion
19:24 PerlJam happy coders are good coders  :)
19:25 PerlJam where's the mailing list?
19:26 masak http://groups.google.com/group/november-wiki
19:26 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/awn2o7
19:26 PerlJam thanks
19:27 * PerlJam reads about "Waves"
19:30 PerlJam inheritable config is interesting.
19:30 masak aye.
19:30 PerlJam the "layers" though look like they map to roles really well.  (runtime roles as mst was saying)
19:31 masak indeed.

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