Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2009-03-17

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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06:57 masak Tene: don't know if I said it, but I have a use case for your tagging module.
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12:02 masak the description of Rack in this announcement is very fitting to how I view Web.pm
12:02 masak http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-​bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/324389
12:02 zarah masak's link is also http://tinyurl.com/9ahm5h
12:03 * masak subscribes to rack-devel @ googlegroups.com
12:10 ruoso masak, that looks like a good canidadate for the "request processing" part...
12:10 masak ruoso: yup.
12:10 masak that's why I'm porting parts of Rack this week.
12:17 ruoso masak, maybe sketching the roles for Request, Response, Request::HTTP first is a good idea
12:17 masak ruoso: yes, maybe.
12:18 moritz_ why roles?
12:18 masak ruoso: I still haven't forgotten your wish to separate out the general Request parts.
12:18 moritz_ from a design philsophy it seems reasonable to make a request a class/object
12:19 ruoso you mean instead of a role?
12:20 ruoso moritz_, roles doesn't interfere in the isa hierarchy
12:21 ruoso moritz_, it means that some object can comply with the interface without sharing any behavior...
12:24 masak ruoso: but most often you want to use Request and response directly, right?
13:00 ruoso joined #november-wiki
13:01 ruoso hmpf... bad internet connection... no donut for you...
13:02 ruoso one of the biggest problems of the Java API is that it failed to mix Interfaces and Classes correctly
13:02 ruoso some times you are forced to describe what would be Interfaces as Abstract classes because of that
13:02 ruoso and it just messes everything up
13:02 ruoso roles can describe only the features related to that specific functionality
13:02 ruoso while if it's a class, it has an isa, and you have to adere to that hierarchy
13:03 ruoso masak, roles can provide a default implementation, through a punned class
13:04 masak sorry, got uprooted from my chair by $BOSS.
13:05 masak ruoso: so you're saying we should create them as roles even though they will be used as classes most of the time?
13:06 ruoso yes... that's the same reasoning behind all Perl 6 built-ins also being roles
13:08 ruoso because that makes it very easy for me to implement a new Request that has a completely independent ISA hierarchy
13:09 masak ruoso: fair enough.
13:09 * masak has been reading recently that inheritance is overrated
13:19 ruoso masak, inheritance for code re-use is indeed overrated
13:19 ruoso and unfortunally, that seems to be the most common use
13:20 masak ruoso: ah, so you mean that inheritance for e.g. polymorphism is totally ok? that's good news.
13:20 ruoso Perl 6 saves you from doing that, you can use inheritance only when it really means that
13:21 ruoso masak, my point is a bit more specific
13:21 ruoso inheritance is often used to improve code reuse
13:21 masak aye.
13:21 ruoso and not to semantically tell that they inherit concepts
13:22 ruoso I mean... Dog isa Animal
13:22 ruoso there's no reason to say that Dog "does" Animal
13:23 ruoso but Dog does Barf
13:23 ruoso and Barf can be a behavior that many other things do...
13:30 ruoso masak, I think the rule-of-thumb is: If you're describing behavior, use roles. If you're describing semantics relationship, use classes.
13:31 masak and only Perl 6 has roles. :)
13:34 ruoso masak, but I think it is worth some more ellaboration on that matter, maybe for your next blog post ;)
13:34 masak ruoso: I'll think about it. :)
13:34 moritz_ ruoso: I think you should write that blog post yourself :-)
13:35 * masak too
13:37 masak I just thought pointing that out might be impolite. :)
13:38 ruoso heh
13:38 moritz_ bland != impolite, IMHO
13:39 masak moritz_: are you saying I'm bland? :P
13:41 moritz_ sorry, blunt
13:41 masak ah.
13:41 masak yes, I have nothing against having that epithet pinned on me.
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16:10 Tene_ masak: oh?  I'll get started on it ASAP.
16:13 masak Tene_: hello. yes, I'm very excited about this idea I have.
16:13 masak not sure how far we'll get with it during the grant period, but that doesn't really matter.
16:13 masak it's a nice use case to keep in mind, I think. apart from November, Maya, and a paste site.
16:40 Tene_ http://www.vimeo.com/3703345
16:42 Tene_ Not necessarily relevant to us, but some cool stuff.
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18:28 masak hackathon tonight!
18:43 masak moritz_: viklund tells me to tell you that you already have a November account. the password is in an email from Jan 22.
18:45 moritz_ masak: I thought so. And since I couldn't find a mail from him, I wanted to recover it...
18:45 moritz_ but November doesn't seem to offer that facility
18:45 masak that is correct.
18:45 masak we don't have an emailing module. :)
18:45 masak nor, I think, will that be part of Web.pm.
18:47 moritz_ I hope viklund's email address contains either 'johan' or 'viklund'?
18:47 masak I bet it does.
18:48 masak his email address does, at least.
18:49 moritz_ ah, found it
18:49 moritz_ finally
18:49 moritz_ in Trash
18:49 masak :)
18:49 masak viklund mutters something next to me.
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18:50 moritz_ but why, oh why? ;-)
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21:28 sahadev hello, i cloned the latest november from github and tried to "make" it. i get the error "Can't find ./HTML/Template in @INC" and looks like HTML/Template.pm isn't part of the distribution.
21:28 sahadev where can i get it?
21:29 moritz_ sahadev: from http://github.com/masak/html-template/ ...
21:29 zarah moritz_'s link is also http://tinyurl.com/cjah5b
21:29 moritz_ sahadev: but it's easier to download proto (http://github.com/masak/proto/), which installs the dependencies for you
21:29 zarah moritz_'s link is also http://tinyurl.com/c2czwu
21:29 masak sahadev: welcome.
21:29 zarah masak: You have new messages. Write '/msg zarah @messages' to read them.
21:29 sahadev moritz_: thanks
21:30 masak sahadev: it's not very advertised, but some modules are moving out of November because they don't really belong there.
21:30 sahadev cool.
21:30 moritz_ or because other projects want to use them as well
21:30 masak sahadev: we're building an installer that downloads and builds everything automatically for you (it's called "proto"), but that's not very advertised either, currently.
21:30 sahadev one minor thing. the Makefile.PL assumes that rakudo still lives under parrot/languages/perl6.
21:31 moritz_ sahadev: I'm curious, how did you learn about november?
21:31 masak joined #november-wiki
21:32 * masak needs to go sleep now
21:32 sahadev i follow use.perl.org occassionally.
21:32 moritz_ ah
21:32 moritz_ thanks
21:32 sahadev i had heard about november a few months ago, and filed away in my brain to check out at some time.
21:33 * masak backlogs
21:33 masak sahadev: about the Makefile.PL -- that's one of the things we've been looking at tonight
21:33 sahadev i have been trying to get a grip on Perl 6 stuff and trying to read up as much as i can (your blogs are quite a lot of help)
21:33 sahadev masak: cool.
21:33 masak sahadev: there's a newer brand of Makefile.PL coming out soon to all Perl 6 projects.
21:33 * moritz_ should blog more
21:34 moritz_ but currently the articles take precedence, and they need a lot of time
21:35 * sahadev can't spend much time unfortunately to make a concerted effort to learn Perl 6
21:35 sahadev so my learning is not very organized at the moment. i am trying to grasp whatever i can.
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