Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2009-07-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
05:19 masak joined #november-wiki
07:13 eiro hello masak
07:13 masak bonjour eiro.
07:14 masak you're in luck, I'm working on Web.pm today. :)
07:14 eiro can you tell me how to add directories to @*INC
07:14 eiro ?
07:15 eiro not really: i'm sick and stopped the work 3 days
07:15 masak well, you can use `BEGIN { @*INC.push('directory') }`
07:15 masak or you can set PERL6LIB in your shell.
07:15 masak eiro: sorry to hear that.
07:15 eiro 2nd point is what i wanted :)
07:16 masak hope you can turn it to something good, for example by helping me make Web.pm awesome. :)
07:16 eiro well ... frequent headaches ... so i don't know :/
07:17 masak now, don't overtax yourself.
07:17 masak what is it you're setting PERL6LIB for, by the way?
07:17 eiro btw... i have to find another job: this one sucks and i guess my health is in relation
07:19 eiro print -l $perl6lib
07:19 eiro gime nothing for the moment
07:20 masak er, capitals? $PERL6LIB?
07:20 masak and shouldn't that be `echo`, not `print`?
07:20 eiro masak, ? really ? you don't use zsh ?
07:20 masak no :)
07:20 eiro omg! you need to!
07:21 eiro typeset -UT PERL6LIB perl6lib
07:21 masak I sort of settled in with bash, and I think I like it.
07:21 eiro i've tied perl6lib to PERL6LIB
07:21 masak some day I'll switch, but likely not to zsh.
07:21 eiro so i can now deal with it as an array
07:21 eiro -U means unique so :
07:21 wayland76 Ok, that's cool :)
07:21 eiro perl6lib+=( toto toto wow )
07:22 wayland76 I've thought about zsh from time to time, but never tried it
07:22 eiro print $PERL6LIB gives me
07:22 masak eiro: sorry, if you can't make it work in zsh, I'm not sure I can help you. bit out of my depth here.
07:22 eiro toto:wow
07:22 wayland76 I'm wondering if a shell written in p6 might be an idea, though :)
07:23 eiro haha ... thought a lot about it ... the best way to a modern shell is the powershell approach imho
07:24 eiro + the ZLE
07:24 eiro masak, chsh -s /bin/zsh now ! it's important for the rest of your life :)
07:25 masak nah.
07:25 eiro > perl6lib+=( /home/mc/src/3rd/{Web,yarn}/lib )
07:25 eiro 09:25 .oO(Full, 92) mc@auckland:/home/mc/src/3rd/yarn
07:25 eiro > print -l $PERL6LIB
07:25 eiro /home/mc/src/3rd/Web/lib:/home/mc/src/3rd/yarn/lib
07:26 wayland76 chsh: can only change local entries; use ypchsh instead
07:26 wayland76 (that was an error message; I use LDAP)
07:26 eiro wow .. what system ?
07:27 wayland76 Fedora 10 on the desktop, CentOS on the server
07:27 eiro chsh works on linux if pam is correctly configured i think
07:27 wayland76 I have one machine that does NFS and LDAP that I hope to upgrade rarely, and the desktop I can upgrade regularly
07:27 eiro oops .. i don't know fedora: switched to debian years ago and don't want to come back :)
07:28 eiro use ldapvi on your account ;)
07:28 wayland76 I don't have ldapvi :)
07:28 eiro any other ldap editor ?
07:30 wayland76 That's my main problem; lbe crashes on my machine :)
07:30 wayland76 So I have to write scripts to change things
07:30 wayland76 It looks like I could do "yum install ldapvi" though :)
07:31 eiro masak, FYI: i was a bash fan and one of the first french translators of ABS. I started zsh to write a "zsh to bash" tutorial ...
07:31 eiro i finally do the other way :)
07:31 masak understood.
07:31 eiro wayland76, :))
07:33 eiro are you 76 years old ? why the 76 ?
07:34 wayland76 Born in 1976
07:35 wayland76 Not very exciting; IIRC it was originally suggested to me by yahoo mail
07:35 wayland76 and I use it when there's already a wayland (such as on Freenode)
08:05 eiro ok
08:22 masak getting back on topic, :)
08:22 masak I've realized that I will need to write a spec for Web.pm
08:22 masak kinda like the Perl 6 synopses.
08:57 eiro masak, does yarn works ? i'm unable to run it :(
08:58 eiro my fault :)
08:58 masak eiro: it did work at one point. I'm not sure it does anymore.
08:58 masak things bit-rot quickly in Web.pm
08:59 eiro ok: it doesn't work .. i'm trying to do a basic CGI for Web.pm and it lack of documentation :)
08:59 eiro i'm trying to find a complete example
09:00 masak ok. let me see if I can help you.
09:00 masak have you found bin/basic-demo.pl ?
09:01 eiro masak, sure ... but there is no cgi there
09:01 masak not sure what you mean by that.
09:01 masak everything in Web.pm is CGI at some level.
09:02 eiro masak, in fact i think i can try it by my way but a tutorial with a basic form would be the least required doc
09:02 eiro masak, yep: parsing the http header from client :)
09:02 masak eiro: yes. I'll definitely write a tutorial, sooner rather than later.
09:02 eiro of course ... but before doing it myself, i would like to know if someone did the job to read it
09:03 eiro masak, i can help you by trying myself, asking questions
09:03 masak eiro: it sounds like the sort of thing the Rack part of Web,pm should handle, yes.
09:03 eiro i can also write the tutorial if you answer the questions :)
09:03 masak eiro: I'm not 100% sure what it is you want to do, but I'm willing to help.
09:04 masak sure, I'd be happy if you wrote a tutorial. if it's good, and with your permission, it'll be integrated into the Web.pm repo.
09:04 eiro i'll love it :)
09:05 eiro so: have to go now .. i'll ping later
09:05 eiro cya
09:05 masak \o
09:54 eiro back ...
09:58 eiro TT is missing :)
09:59 masak in what sense?
10:47 eiro well .. this is the best perl V i know for MVC
10:47 eiro if i would be skilled enought, i would port it in perl6 for sure
10:48 eiro my wwk syntax for the wiki too ...
10:48 eiro (wwk was my own wiki)
10:50 masak I don't know much about Template Toolkit.
10:50 masak maybe a port would be worth it, yes.
10:50 masak the thing about Web.pm is that it should enable such things.
11:07 ihrd left #november-wiki
11:08 wayland76 I happen to like HTML::Mason better than TT
11:08 wayland76 Specifically because it does autohandlers and dhandlers
11:08 wayland76 So if we're doing something like that, can we include those?
11:11 masak I have experience of neither.
11:11 masak but hey, this is an open-source project, so jump right in! :)
11:16 eiro wayland76, i really don't trust HTML::Mason by experience: the pb is that too many developpers make php then
11:17 eiro TT keeps it simple but have a real separation between template designers dans the rest of the team
11:18 eiro it would be more important in perl6 which is "not designed as a first langage but as the last one"
11:18 eiro HTML::Mason would become a very bad idea according to me
11:18 eiro btw: what's a dhandler ?
11:19 masak I think having both a fast-but-dumb level and a correct-and-more-advanced level is important.
11:19 masak think scripting versus application development.
11:19 masak sometimes one fades into the other.
11:19 eiro as i said: i'm not skilled enougth. Will contrib as i can :)
11:21 eiro masak, Tags *is* the correct-and-more-advanced level (for me)
11:22 masak eiro: that might be a valid point, too.
11:22 masak eiro: are you saying you don't mind mixing logic and presentation?
11:26 eiro masak, no ... i don't want to mix them but you can have a class BookView does View { use Tags; ... }
11:27 masak eiro: ok. fair enough.
11:27 masak eiro: takes some discipline, though, because it's not inherent in the system.
11:28 eiro it would be cool to have TT *and* HTML::Mason in long term. But according to me, TT2 must be sooner in the roadmap
11:28 eiro masak, sure .. but trust me: HTML::Mason requires the same discipline
11:28 masak I'm writing Hitomi, it's foremost on the roadmap.
11:29 eiro (as you can entierly write your app into the html mason perl tags
11:29 eiro Hitomi ? template system too ?
11:29 masak yes, ported from Python's Genshi.
11:30 eiro ok
11:30 masak it's said to be really good.
11:30 eiro cool :)
11:31 eiro show { table { tr { <a b c>.map: { td $_ }}}}
11:32 eiro it failed .. is it normal ?
11:32 eiro (because of the map)
11:32 masak try using () instead of :
11:34 eiro well done masak!
11:35 masak both should work, but in general I don't trust :
11:35 eiro an explaination ? (for my tuto)
11:35 eiro ok .. good to know
11:35 masak eiro: I don't know exactly why.
11:36 masak I think you should experiment and find out.
11:36 eiro ok ..  so nevermind :)
11:36 masak I would, but I'm busy writing Hitomi. :)
11:36 eiro write! write! i continues the exploration of your code :)
11:37 eiro masak, do you mind patches just adding comments ?
11:37 masak eiro: I don't mind, at least not if I like the comments. :)
11:38 eiro :) ok
11:38 eiro prefered adress is @gmail?
11:39 wayland76 eiro: say I have a folder called "foo"
11:39 wayland76 And in it, I have a bunch of images, called 1.jpg, 2.jpg, 3.jpg
11:39 wayland76 If I make a file called "dhandler" in that directory...
11:40 wayland76 And a web request comes in for foo/1.html ...
11:40 eiro this have nothing to do with templating according to me :)
11:40 wayland76 Then it will run the dhandler (default handler) because 1.html doesn't exist, and I can make that into HTML that shows 1.jpg with surrounding whatever
11:40 eiro but it's a cool feature for sure :)
11:41 wayland76 But if I create 2.html, then the dhandler is only called for 1 and 3
11:41 wayland76 Yes, maybe nothing to do with templating, but it's one of the 2 reasons I use HTML::Mason :)
11:41 wayland76 Am I right in presuming you're already familiar with autohandlers?
11:42 masak eiro: yes, the gmail address works fine.
11:42 eiro masak, ok
11:42 eiro wayland76, hmm ... for me it's something that is done when some function is missing in a module
11:42 eiro right ?
11:43 wayland76 No, that's not a HTML::Mason autohandler
11:43 wayland76 Here's how HTML::Mason autohandlers work
11:43 wayland76 Say I have a file in the directory foo called 2.html
11:43 wayland76 And I put in a file called "autohandler"...
11:44 wayland76 Then HTML mason *first* uses the autohandler template
11:44 wayland76 And when the code in the autohandler calls a "next" function, only then does it include 2.html
11:44 wayland76 I think it also works its way backwards up the directory tree
11:45 wayland76 so you can put an autohandler in the site root that eg. includes all the CSS you want
11:45 wayland76 That's sort of a half-templating, half file-finding feature
11:45 eiro cool feature but again: for me this is a behevior for an mvc framework or an httpd configuration ... not for a templating system
11:46 eiro but you're right: masak have to write it too ;)
11:46 wayland76 Ok, I see your point.  HTML::Mason was never careful to distinguish them.  As long as the features are in there somewhere... :)
11:47 wayland76 I'm looking forward to a more careful system, though :)
11:48 eiro wayland76, yep ... for me, html::mason would be split on 2 projects :
11:48 eiro - their php like templating features
11:48 eiro - their minimalistic MVC system
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12:02 wayland76 masak: In the long term, will the Web.pm suite be ISP-friendly?
12:02 masak wayland76: what does that mean to you?
12:03 wayland76 ie. with the application in one place, and the config in another, so that each user can have their own config, but only one copy of the app is needed?
12:03 masak ah.
12:03 masak it's too early for me to give a sensible answer to that, but I expect there will be ways to do that, yes.
12:03 masak I mean, hey, it's Perl.
12:03 wayland76 Ok.
12:04 wayland76 Well, yes, but I'd also like it to be *easy*
12:04 masak I see.
12:04 wayland76 I think there'd need to be 3 copies of the config
12:04 eiro wayland76, isn't it a mod_parrot game, wayland76 ?
12:04 wayland76 One where the ISP can specify mandatory settings (ie. safe_mode = on)
12:04 wayland76 One where the ISP can specify default settings
12:05 wayland76 and one where the user can config things
12:05 eiro mod_parrot *is* isp friendly as i read on moritz posts
12:05 wayland76 eiro: Hmm.  It depends.
12:06 wayland76 I guess I've found CMSs (which I know Web.pm isn't) to be less ISP-friendly than many other pieces of software
12:06 wayland76 And I was probably just getting confused again :)
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14:10 eiro wayland76, i got it! i know what you meant and completely agreed
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19:24 Topic for #november-wikiis now 2009 -- the year of November. <http://november-wiki.org> <http://github.com/viklund/november> <http://irclog.perlgeek.de/november-wiki> <http://nopaste.snit.ch>

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