Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #november-wiki, 2009-08-26

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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14:29 masak Tene: ping
15:31 Tene Heh, just missed him.
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20:49 Tene masak: I missed you by one minute this morning.
20:49 masak heh :)
20:49 Tene I was going to work on your stuff after meeting allison and particle last night, but I fell asleep as soon as I got to the hotel.
20:49 Tene Sorry.
20:50 masak hey, no problem :)
20:50 Tene I'll try again tonight.
20:50 masak just wanted to say what I've found so far.
20:50 Tene oh
20:50 Tene not harass me?
20:50 Tene Go ahead then.
20:50 masak (or rather, I said "ActiveRecord" in my blog post, which was effective in making people come to me with suggestions for better role models.)
20:50 masak http://sequel.rubyforge.org/
20:51 Tene I remember finding activerecord to be really creepy.
20:51 Tene i didn't like it.
20:51 Tene don't remember why. :P
20:51 Tene my favorite orm by far has been DBIx::Class
20:52 masak good.
20:52 masak that was the other recommendation I got.
20:52 masak I was trying to find a link to it just now.
20:53 Tene Jifty's orm is... okay.
20:53 Tene It's extremely opinionated.
20:53 masak what would you say about pairing up at some point and just coding like crazy for something like two hours?
20:53 PerlJam creepy?
20:53 Tene It doesn't work well with dbs it doesn't manage, just like activerecord, iirc.
20:53 masak whipping up something that works in Rakudo and with Web.pm.
20:53 PerlJam ActiveRecord is nice and simple.   emphasis on simple.
20:53 Tene masak: I'd love that.
20:54 masak cool.
20:54 masak PerlJam: yes, I liked that too.
20:54 masak I'm trying to square that with the criticism from people I trust.
20:55 Tene PerlJam: I can try to figure out what bothered me originally if you'd like.
20:55 PerlJam It's hard to get AR to do something with existing table structures if you don't already follow it's opinions.
20:55 PerlJam s/it's/its/
20:56 masak PerlJam: the criticisms I've heard so far are "too much monkey typing", "exists, so far as I can tell, for authors of actual ORMs to laugh at", and "unlocks all the power of mysql 3.23"
20:56 PerlJam complex joins and such also give AR problems.
20:56 Tene PerlJam: yeah, that was the big one.  If you have an existing db, or a db managed by anything else, AR has big issues.
20:56 Tene And that's a major issue for me.
20:57 Tene I like my software to play well with an existing ecosystem.
20:57 PerlJam yeah
20:57 Tene That's also my big complaint with jifty's orm
20:58 masak Tene: from what you're saying here, I see I should have employed your help about a week ago. :)
20:58 PerlJam but, if you're starting from scratch and don't mind AR's opinions about how things should be named, and don't have any complicated queries (I'll warrant this describes a good many projects), then ActiveRecord is fine
20:58 masak oh well, it was a fun set of experiments.
20:59 Tene PerlJam: as long as you note that "don't mind AR's opinions about your db" excludes "want to interoperate with an existing/currently-used db".
20:59 PerlJam One of AR's "problems" perhaps is that it is seductively simple.  You start out all nice and easy and fun, but when you run into a wall,  there's no recourse; you're done.
20:59 Tene But, yeah, it's certainly not worthless.
21:00 PerlJam Tene: right
21:00 * Tene afk, teaching
21:00 Tene masak: probably available this weekend for orm hackathon or whatever
21:00 masak PerlJam: that's a common complaint for Rails in general, IIUC.
21:00 Tene might have db libs for you tonight.
21:00 masak Tene: I won't be this weekend, sadly.
21:01 PerlJam masak: yep. Rails has improved the situation of late though
21:01 masak Tene: but perhaps sometime next week?
21:01 masak Tene: anything you throw at me to play with will be much appreciated.
21:01 masak but I'll be fairly busy until early next week.
21:01 masak PerlJam: oh? thanks to the Merb merge?
21:01 PerlJam masak: yes.
21:01 masak great. because that was the idea, IIUC.
21:04 PerlJam I think rails ended up doing things "right" no matter the criticism it gets.  A real, actualy problem was solved in the simplest way possible.  Then as the problem space got bigger and the needs changed, so did rails.
21:04 PerlJam s/ly/l/
21:04 PerlJam Now Rails is starting to approve the customizability of Catalyst IMHO (still not there yet, but so what?)
21:05 PerlJam s/approve/approach/
21:05 PerlJam I have no clue what my fingers are typing sometimes :)
21:07 masak Rails at least has the reputation of being very easy to get going with.
21:07 masak Catalyst almost takes a stance against that, claiming that it builds upon a more solud ground, and that that's a good thing in the long run.
21:08 PerlJam yep.
21:09 PerlJam I sometimes get  the impression that the Catalyst folks look down upon the Rails folks because the Rails people are solving problems that the Catalyst folks have already solved.  But then again, there's a reason Rails is so wildly popular too.
21:10 PerlJam Catalyst is unapproachable.  Rails is like a good friend  :)
21:11 masak yes.
21:11 masak generalizing very broadly, Perl folks don't care as much about shiny stuff.
21:12 PerlJam There are still some things I picked up using Rails that I wish Catalyst did.  But there's some philosophical differences there.  That's why sri made mojolicious as I understand things.  His philosophy seems to be more closely aligned with Rails
21:12 masak unfortunately, shiny stuff has one big advantage: it draws in people who are just starting out with something. the Python and Ruby communities realize that.
21:13 masak I still want to look more closely at Mojo. it seems to have some good ideas in it too.
21:14 PerlJam yeah, I haven't looked at it too closely myself, but it does seem interesting.
21:17 masak if I tune in and out of this discussion, it's because I'm trying to be proactive about the task that will make be very busy as the end of the week approaches.
21:18 masak it's a two-question essay paper for the Literature part of the third term of Mandarin Chinese.
21:19 PerlJam I'm largely done myself as I'm also trying to be productive :)
21:19 masak good :) anyway, nice talking to you about MVC frameworks.
21:19 masak these are questions that occupy my mind lately.
22:00 Tene masak: again, I strongly recommend looking at Jifty if you want to see a rails-like framework in Perl.
22:00 Tene The best way to approach it is to read through the talks in their svn server and then look at the examples in their svn server.
22:01 masak Tene: I have been looking at Jifty a lot.
22:01 masak I'll take a look at those examples, though. good idea.
22:01 Tene The actual documentation is negligible, but the talks and examples are pretty good.
22:09 masak so I've found.
22:10 masak just to be explicit, my short-term goals is to write something like a full stack. it doesn't have to do everything, but it should be able to do something. that will fire people up.
22:11 masak s/goals/goal/
22:12 Tene Yes.
22:12 Tene It would be a lot of fun to introspect the ORM classes to build a web admin page automatically. :)
22:13 Tene But, I'll try to get you mysql access from rakudo asap
22:14 Tene I'm pretty sure I had memcached access working somewhere, but then i realized that I have no use for memcached, so I dropped it. :P
22:15 masak :)
22:15 masak ok, quarter past shold-be-asleep-already here.
22:15 Tene 'night
22:16 masak I don't expect to be very IRC-able for the rest of the week.
22:16 Tene email?
22:16 masak aye.
22:16 Tene kk
22:16 masak the IRC logs work too.
22:16 masak or phenny.
22:16 masak whatever suits you best.
22:16 masak o/
22:16 masak \gq tests rock!

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