Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #openam, 2017-04-08

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Time Nick Message
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01:49 Topic for #openam is now Chat about the OpenAM project - https://backstage.forgerock.com/#/downloads - OpenAM 13.5.0 is out! OpenAM 12.0.4 is out! Channel logs at: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openam/today
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11:50 KermitTheFragger aldaris: did you guys actually delete the https://forum.forgerock.com/topic/am5-paid-product-or-open-source/ topic?
11:51 KermitTheFragger i bookmarked it cause i was interested to see what people's opinions were (didn't participate) but now its just gone?
11:52 KermitTheFragger also can't find it via search anymore and doesn't seem to have popped up anywhere
11:52 aldaris no, I moved it to the community edition topic as I commented on it
11:53 aldaris merged the two topics together under the general forum
11:54 aldaris I think the e-mail notifications are broken on the forum at the moment, that's why you may have missed it
11:54 KermitTheFragger ah ok thanks
11:55 KermitTheFragger wasn't actually subscribed to the topic. Actually deleted my forum account since I don't think there is much point in participating with FR anymore
11:56 KermitTheFragger (nothing personal btw, you've always been very responsive and frank)
11:57 KermitTheFragger but for me it kinda feels like FR doesn't really want to be involved with OSS
11:57 KermitTheFragger i kinda feel the Oracle vibes...
11:58 MegaMatt For me it was the other way around, I felt like the community never really contributed anything and FR was doing all the work - and other people were just taking it and profiting from it
12:00 KermitTheFragger MegaMatt: there are plenty of plugins to find on github. The fact that the community was kinda fractured was FR's own doing.
12:00 KermitTheFragger in the beginning you even needed to create an account before you could access the neatly tucked away source
12:00 KermitTheFragger in a time of Github that is kinda of a high barrier
12:02 KermitTheFragger I mean even small time projects like keycloak have gathered a bigger community then OpenAM. That had nothing to do with the people in the community and everything to do with FR making the entry barriers too high
12:03 aldaris have to agree with Kermit on that one
12:03 MegaMatt Just giving my perspective, not saying either one of us is right
12:05 KermitTheFragger I understand and thats fine, I don't feel attacked and I'm not calling you an idiot or anything ;-)
12:06 KermitTheFragger and I also realize that "truth" in this matter is more of a relative thing
12:07 KermitTheFragger however if you look at for example how Hashicorp deals with terraform, packer, etc. and the community vs. FR and OpenAM. That's night and day.
12:07 KermitTheFragger And I really think the community could have offered FR something for the development of for example OpenAM
12:08 MegaMatt So why doesn’t the community just take the last version, fork it, and contine with an open surce project?
12:08 MegaMatt That is, if the community is really as strong as you suggest ;)
12:09 KermitTheFragger the community is fractured
12:09 aldaris sigh
12:09 KermitTheFragger someone needs to lead
12:09 MegaMatt .. Anyone could lead..
12:09 aldaris there is no community, because FR never really embraced it
12:09 KermitTheFragger seriously? anyone can lead?
12:09 MegaMatt So why not start one?
12:10 KermitTheFragger leadership takes time and dedication and also you need to reach the people
12:10 KermitTheFragger creating a real community without FR is going to be really hard
12:10 MegaMatt Agreed ;)
12:12 KermitTheFragger so thats why I probably won't try to start a community around a fork
12:13 jelmd MegaMatt: how should a community contribute, when it doesn’t has access to the trunk?
12:14 KermitTheFragger jelmd: well we could fork the latest master (14-rc1) and call the project something different "uber-fancy-AM 14.0" for example
12:14 MegaMatt I mean, the way I view it all - and maybe I’m not smart, never claimed to be - is that ForgeRock has ended OpenAM and has started AccessManagement
12:14 MegaMatt So community would fork the last OpenAM and continue it
12:14 KermitTheFragger yeah thats true
12:15 KermitTheFragger but its not going to happen because you can't kickstart the community around it
12:15 KermitTheFragger people wouldn't even know about the existence of your fork
12:15 MegaMatt Somebody could, if they wanted to make the investment like FR did at the start
12:16 KermitTheFragger you mean when FR took the code from Sun / Oracle?
12:16 KermitTheFragger and started a company around it?
12:16 MegaMatt Yes, same thing
12:17 KermitTheFragger well I already have a company of 40 people but when I need a new challenge I'll keep it in mind ;-)
12:18 KermitTheFragger (were not an IT company BTW; After sales service so we don't have Oracle / FR style money ;-)
12:18 MegaMatt I don’t think the FR founders had a lot of money
12:18 jelmd that doesn’t really work. Usually successful OSS projects have at least 1-2 full payed people, which do the main maintenance etc.. community contributes features/fixes and hope, that they get integrated in the official release, so that they do not need maintain them forever and all can benefit …
12:18 KermitTheFragger what makes you say that?
12:19 KermitTheFragger jelmd: very true, exactly the point i've been making ;-)
12:19 jelmd i.e., why I think, just forking buyes nothing
12:19 aldaris FR started without much of a competition
12:19 KermitTheFragger the situation was btw entirly different
12:19 KermitTheFragger Oracle had EOL'ed OpenSSO
12:20 KermitTheFragger so all customers with deployments had to go somewhere
12:20 aldaris any company that tries to sell an openam-fork would have to prove that their version is better than FR's
12:20 jelmd not really. More important is: secure and maintained ;-)
12:21 MegaMatt I just keep thinking about StarOffice though
12:21 MegaMatt Sorry, OpenOffice
12:22 MegaMatt That couldn’t have been a “great” community
12:22 jelmd which is — dead?
12:22 MegaMatt Because it got forked, and people contributed
12:22 KermitTheFragger LibreOffice is backed by RedHat, IBM and a couple of other organisations
12:22 KermitTheFragger that was never done by "just peope who contributed"
12:24 KermitTheFragger also the original developers from the Sun days went with the fork...that helped
12:24 MegaMatt for sure
12:24 KermitTheFragger so imho that is a totally different situation
12:24 jelmd exactly. Most people dropped OpenOffice when Oracle closed its doors and went to LibreOffice. Releasing it 1+ year later to apache didn’t get them back to it - so yes, similar to AM.
12:26 KermitTheFragger jelmd: Similar in what way? The sequence of events? Because the fork itself was totally different
12:26 KermitTheFragger organizations who were already involved (RedHat) decided to create a fork with their corporate backing
12:27 jelmd KermitTheFragger: close the door - community (and potential contributers) go away
12:27 jelmd and you’ll probably not get them back
12:27 KermitTheFragger jelmd: oh yeah thats certainly true
12:29 KermitTheFragger usually when a fork happens the community is fractured in 2 so the part that splits of (see for example the Adempiere / Compiere story) is already a functional community
12:29 KermitTheFragger OpenAM is a really bad starting point for a community fork because there is no community
12:31 jelmd yepp, and by hiding the trunk FR never gave the community a chance to grow up - right from the start.
12:31 KermitTheFragger jelmd: as for the secure and maintained part; I'm still considering if maintaining a fork of 14-rc1 or 13.5 is an option
12:32 jelmd do you realy have that much spare time?
12:32 KermitTheFragger definitely not...
12:32 jelmd that’s the point ;-)
12:33 KermitTheFragger the alternatives are; Keycloak, WSO2 and GLUU (shibboleth is only SAML)
12:34 KermitTheFragger personally i'm leaning towards keycloak since it has a "simple" project structure
12:34 jelmd https://github.com/apereo/cas seems to be an option as well.
12:35 KermitTheFragger GLUU is too much...glue...around a lot of moving parts ( https://www.gluu.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/gluu_server_diagram.png )
12:36 KermitTheFragger yeah i saw that one too, what do you think about the selection?
12:36 * jelmd shudders when seeing AD ;-)
12:39 KermitTheFragger ;-)
14:57 KermitTheFragger yeah after some consideration and pondering I think keycloak best serves my needs
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