Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #openframeworks, 2013-08-01

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10:51 luteberget is anyone working on multiwindow with GLFW?
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10:56 emile1 Hello!
10:56 emile1 First time on this chan, is it the official ?
10:57 SoylentGraham ya
10:58 emile1 thanks
10:58 emile1 i wondered if anyone of you would know some vfx done with opF? I mean cgi ... for films
10:59 emile1 even little clips, musical or cormmercial
10:59 SoylentGraham hmm probably not, they have quite specific industry tools
10:59 SoylentGraham oh, that might be different :)
11:00 moofy A friend of mine does vfx
11:00 moofy half the time they code their own stuff
11:00 moofy but it's almost all rendered out, there's no benefit to having it real time
11:00 emile1 yeah
11:00 tgfrerer elime1 : check out: http://jtnimoy.net/workviewer.php?q=178
11:00 moofy if you're doing 4k frames
11:01 moofy you'd need one hell of a graphics card
11:01 emile1 do you know Houdini ?
11:01 tgfrerer ^elime1^emile1
11:01 moofy they have a cluster that just crunches numbers
11:01 moofy and do the actual animation in maya or whatever
11:02 emile1 (very nice page thank you)
11:02 emile1 ok*
11:03 moofy bleh
11:03 moofy for someone who did vfx that page is horrible to read
11:03 emile1 why ?
11:03 emile1 i have not started, just watched the picts
11:04 moofy huge letters, thin hard to read typeface
11:04 emile1 ok
11:04 moofy Helvetica ultra light is not fun to read in body text ;p
11:05 emile1 but is it particular to vfx peopl e? :)
11:07 SoylentGraham vfx artists wouldn't normally bother with so much text
11:07 moofy Some of that stuff
11:07 moofy is really pretty
11:07 moofy and when you change the typeface to 16px palatino it's actually legible :p
11:08 moofy gah
11:08 moofy worst thing about that article is there's no github of the code he wrote
11:09 SoylentGraham he just needed clearance to write about it?
11:09 moofy I bet he did
11:09 moofy still sad
11:09 SoylentGraham or just a screenshot
11:09 moofy i want to play with that thing :p
11:09 emile1 ok ... he says that finally all his stuff were remade into houdini because of the rendering
11:10 moofy hmm
11:10 moofy this reminds me
11:10 moofy i wish we could make the of wiki a bit easier on the eyes
11:10 emile1 that might be the issue ... no other renderers that openGl in OpenFrameworks ?
11:10 SoylentGraham just to use it it probably had to be in houdini anyway
11:10 emile1 in processing there is sunflow
11:11 moofy well you need something that can render static frames
11:11 moofy rather than in real time
11:11 moofy i don't know how well opengl is set up for that
11:12 tgfrerer emile1: check out https://github.com/kikko/ofxEmbree
11:16 moofy Oh nice
11:16 moofy only time i ever really played with a raytracer rendering engine was with maxwell
11:16 moofy that was absolutely amazing
11:16 emile1 woh
11:19 moofy Hmm
11:19 moofy second hand kinect for £28
11:19 moofy tempting
11:20 SoylentGraham It's hard to get them off ebay for less than £30 (inc delivery)
11:21 moofy i was going to borrow a friends
11:21 moofy but he's got one of the new ones with the funny non-standard usb connector
11:21 SoylentGraham adapters are about £4 :)
11:22 moofy oh ah?
11:22 moofy mmm. i don't have to give it back if it's mine though
11:23 SoylentGraham Ive not bought one without the orange connector, I'm confused as to whether it comes with one or not
11:23 SoylentGraham (mine are all second hand)
11:23 moofy how many you got...
11:23 SoylentGraham 3
11:24 moofy heh
11:24 SoylentGraham and a windows one
11:24 moofy did you strap them together and get three dimensional kinecting
11:24 moofy what's different about the windows one
11:25 SoylentGraham I'm not sure yet :) I'm not sure all the open kinect libs support them
11:25 SoylentGraham I'm just using them as depth cameras & regular cameras atm
11:26 moofy I don't actually know waht
11:26 moofy what* I'd use it for
11:26 moofy I have lots of crackpot ideas I never make
11:28 moofy like making a mellotron sythesiser
11:28 SoylentGraham that's what happened with my arduino's, I don't have the time to fiddle with them
11:28 moofy I just don't have enough knowledge of electrical engineering to make much with mine
11:29 moofy and to really do audio it would need something like a raspberry pi to crunch
11:29 moofy Audio is just blegh. I need to find someone who knows what they're doing and mercilessly grill them about it
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13:03 Topic for #openframeworks is now #openFrameworks Welcome to the openFrameworks irc channel - We are now doing a bugfixing drive for 0.8.0 - please submit PRs against https://github.com/openframe​works/openFrameworks/issues - please read: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFra​meworks/wiki/openFrameworks-git-workflow
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15:55 armadillu hey guys, are you still set on releasing 0.08 today? exciting!
15:58 admsyn should be :)
16:10 admsyn what's needed right now is more testing of the nightly, if you have a moment
16:10 admsyn http://www.openframeworks.cc/nightlybuilds.html
16:12 admsyn we're going through the examples and marking them as "checked" here : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At​tyIRZ76JCddGJnbzBJaFFuWlBMZEpqUEdPSmtUaUE#gid=0
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16:14 admsyn hey ofTheo
16:14 armadillu mmm I'm at work now, can't really help
16:14 ofTheo hey hey
16:14 admsyn is this thing still relevant? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At​tyIRZ76JCddGJnbzBJaFFuWlBMZEpqUEdPSmtUaUE#gid=0
16:14 ofTheo definately!
16:14 admsyn ok, giving osx a run through now, then
16:16 ofTheo thanks!
16:21 ofTheo also what can be really helpful is if people test their existing projects with 0.8.0
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17:09 admsyn I wonder if there's a good way to solve the build issue with Xcode 5 in advance
17:09 admsyn where you have to set the development target to 10.8
17:10 admsyn as in, is there a way to handle it that doesn't do weird things on 10.6 / 10.7
17:14 admsyn in the camera parenting example, I don't see purple / yellow boxes, is that right?
17:14 admsyn http://i.imgur.com/OSFwXfp.png
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17:30 ofTheo adamsyn - I don't think it is possible
17:31 ofTheo sorry admsyn - beacause if we set the OS to 10.8 - it would break for 10.6 and 10.7 users
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17:31 admsyn yeah I figured :)
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17:31 admsyn I'm just wondering if there's basically a way to say "if we're targeting 10.9, make it 10.8 instead" or something like that in build settings (I don't think there is)
17:32 admsyn anyway, not that important, really
17:32 ofTheo yup thats a bug @admsyn - no boxes in that example - can you make a GH issue for it?
17:32 kylemcd joined #openframeworks
17:32 admsyn sure
17:32 ofTheo we could do a 10.9 release
17:32 kylemcd yo oftheo this is crazy https://github.com/openframewo​rks/openFrameworks/issues/2362
17:32 ofTheo where there is a find/replace which changes CurrentOS to 10.8
17:33 ofTheo hey kylemcd!
17:33 ofTheo yeah - though I do understand arturos point
17:33 kylemcd heyyy
17:33 kylemcd hm
17:33 ofTheo for most people doing 3D camera stuff the default is 0.0 in the center and + up in y
17:34 ofTheo sorry zero,zero in the center ( my client turned that into an emoticon )
17:34 kylemcd i have a dumb client and see the 0 point 0 :)
17:34 kylemcd hmm
17:34 ofTheo so drawing an image at zero,zero you would expect it to be facing up not down.
17:34 ofTheo ha nice!
17:34 ofTheo but - what is weird, is any project doing 3D textures with a camera - is going to have issues where all their stuff is inverted
17:34 kylemcd but why do you expect that?
17:35 kylemcd right
17:35 kylemcd also, the geometry vs the tex coord thing bugs me
17:35 ofTheo yeah -
17:35 kylemcd i really think the answer is to invert y
17:35 ofTheo haha -
17:35 ofTheo Nick loves that idea too
17:35 kylemcd and leave the textures like normal
17:36 ofTheo you mean invert the whole GL world so -y is up?
17:36 ofTheo that would break even more projects
17:36 kylemcd right
17:36 ofTheo I actually think arturo is right in a way - but I think there should be some way to disable it easily.
17:36 kylemcd well
17:37 kylemcd arturo just wrote in the comments it has a lot to do with "the opengl way"
17:37 kylemcd but the thing is that OF 2d already breaks "the opengl way"
17:37 kylemcd i believe it's better to be consistent for people moving from 2d->3d to have everything "keep making sense" as far as orientation goes
17:37 kylemcd rather than cater to people starting wth opengl books trying to learn OF
17:38 ofTheo its been a massive pain in the past having to do camera stuff where all the images are loading upside down - I think a lot of new users, expect it to be how arturo has made it.
17:39 kylemcd new users definitely expect their images to be drawn not-upside-down by default
17:39 ofTheo haha - thats a given :)
17:39 kylemcd but i don't think they expect it to use the bottom left as an anchor point
17:39 ofTheo actually - I agree there
17:39 kylemcd and they don't expect ofTranslate(0, 100) to move the image in a different direction
17:40 ofTheo I think my default expectation for an image drawn at zero,zero in 3D would be the top left corner of the image is at zero,zero
17:40 kylemcd those are three separate things we have control over -- tex coords, anchor points, global coordinate system
17:40 kylemcd right
17:40 ofTheo so basically what Arturo has - but with the anchorPercent corrected for his flipping
17:40 kylemcd and the way to reconcile all of it is by flipping the camera
17:40 kylemcd so you're saying instead of fixing all 3, just hack 2/3 of them? :)
17:40 ofTheo or easier / better fixing setAnchorPercent / setAnchorPoint for flipped coords
17:41 ofTheo no beacuse -y up is wrong
17:41 ofTheo in 3D :P
17:41 ofTheo haha
17:41 kylemcd hah hah
17:41 ofTheo people will hate us for ever
17:41 kylemcd i bet zach would disagree with you
17:42 kylemcd hmm
17:42 ofTheo its not an option
17:42 kylemcd right
17:42 kylemcd i just feel that this creates more inconsistencies than there were already
17:42 ofTheo to break things the least would be to revert the tex flipping
17:43 kylemcd yes
17:43 kylemcd at the very least, i just don't think arturo's change should be made
17:43 ofTheo not have it on by default, and give people the option to turn it on and have it arturos way
17:43 kylemcd i think 0.7.4 should be the default way
17:43 ofTheo right
17:43 ofTheo me too
17:44 ofTheo but with an option to enable flipping for textures which also handles the setAnchor stuff too
17:44 kylemcd yeah that would be great
17:44 ofTheo so that the anchor is relative to the texture and not the geometry
17:44 kylemcd yes
17:44 kylemcd can we do that instead
17:44 ofTheo I think we should - I just haven't had any allies at this point :D
17:44 kylemcd tell arturo kyle has your back
17:44 admsyn glEnable(GL_DEPTH_TEST); should -> ofEnableDepthTest(); in the examples right?
17:45 kylemcd admsyn yes
17:45 ofTheo thanks! :)
17:45 ofTheo I can put together a PR that does that kylemcd
17:45 kylemcd that'd be great, i can +1 :)
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17:45 ofTheo I'm glad we moved away from -y - haha
17:45 kylemcd ;)
17:45 ofTheo btw how was the move?
17:46 kylemcd it's good!
17:46 kylemcd haven't unpacked yet, but it's just an afternoon of work
17:46 ofTheo is it your own place / or a share?
17:46 kylemcd 2br w taeyoon!
17:46 ofTheo ha - awesome!!
17:47 ofTheo nice! - please say hi.
17:47 kylemcd we got some stuff at ikea yesterday and when i woke up i saw he left a drawing on the new table
17:47 kylemcd http://instagram.com/p/ceSjT2yfYr/
17:47 ofTheo oh man - so good!
17:47 ofTheo what street you on?
17:48 kylemcd keap and south 4
17:49 ofTheo ahh near Moto
17:49 kylemcd is that nice, i haven't been there?
17:49 ofTheo trophy bar
17:49 kylemcd yeah that one neither
17:49 ofTheo it used to be my favorite place - amazing food
17:49 kylemcd ah nice
17:49 ofTheo (moto)
17:50 ofTheo atmosphere is super nice - but I think the food might not be as good.
17:50 ofTheo anyway lots of friends used to live right around there
17:50 kylemcd :)
17:50 ofTheo marlow and sons by the water on broadway is super nice
17:50 kylemcd yeah this is a little cheaper than living further north, but still walking/biking distance to everything
17:50 kylemcd ahh awesome, writing this down.. :)
17:52 ofTheo there is a prob lots of new stuff too - I'm a little behind in my knowledge of places around there.
17:53 kylemcd we got 78 RTs on this one https://twitter.com/openframew​orks/status/361548771999481856
17:53 kylemcd gotta deliver
17:53 ofTheo yup!
17:53 kylemcd hah hah
17:53 ofTheo going to push on the PR -
17:53 ofTheo will feel much better with that in there
17:53 ofTheo btw: any clue about this https://github.com/openframewo​rks/openFrameworks/issues/2387
17:54 kylemcd huh weird
18:03 kylemcd ughhhh arturo is really convinced https://github.com/openframeworks/openFra​meworks/issues/2362#issuecomment-21956537
18:04 kylemcd i guess we can just assign every issue to him that people report when they say 0.8.0 broke their project
18:06 bakercp (@ofTheo regarding your ping on #2387 -- I was not directly involved in that particular situation and don't have much to offer there …)
18:06 ofTheo okay no problem bakercp - I knew you had a bit to do with the programmable stuff - so thought you might know. :)
18:07 ofTheo kylemcd - yeah, going to see if there is a clean solution where we could toggle this behavior.
18:07 kylemcd ok
18:07 bakercp Very little on the programmable stuff actually … it was kind of laid on top of what we did in the rpi branch.  It's all still a bit mysterious to me.
18:07 ofTheo ahh okay.
18:07 bakercp That said, I haven't spent any time trying to understand it … so eventually, I might have something to offer!
18:11 ofTheo @kylemcd - I do get arturo's point. - I didn't realize it was the geometry that was changing. - nice that it fixes a lot of flipping issues that we were seeing
18:11 ofTheo but it still will break a tonne of projects
18:19 kylemcd heh heh
18:19 kylemcd ofSetDefaults("0.7.4");
18:20 admsyn err, in normalsExample, there's a ofEnableAlphaBlending(); followed by a ofEnableBlendMode(OF_BLENDMODE_ALPHA);
18:20 admsyn same thing, right?
18:21 kylemcd same thing yes
18:21 kylemcd just use the first
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18:36 mst1228_ is 0.8.0 in the develop branch if i wanted to check it out?
18:37 admsyn basically, it's being finished up right now
18:37 admsyn but the actual 0.8.0 tag is going to be applied a bit later
18:37 ofTheo mst1228_ to make the examples run the app in devApps/projectGenerator/
18:38 mst1228_ great, thanks a ton
18:39 admsyn I don't seem to be getting "lighting" in the multiLightExample
18:39 admsyn trying to upload a screenshot but imgur's being slow
18:41 ofTheo yup - thats a bug!
18:41 ofTheo :D
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18:42 ofTheo admsyn - thats a bug!
18:42 ofTheo nice find
18:42 admsyn yey! (?)
18:42 admsyn trying to fix all the GL_DEPTH_TEST calls and test at the same time :)
18:42 admsyn tediouuuussss
18:42 ofTheo ha - yeah
18:42 ofTheo was thinking massive grep might be the way to go
18:42 admsyn same
18:43 admsyn but then as I queued it up, realised I needed to test the examples anyway
18:43 ofTheo ahh yeah
18:43 ofTheo lot of examples :)
18:43 admsyn and there was that whole thing with the logs awhile ago :/
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18:44 admsyn yeah, same bug in single light example
18:44 admsyn ofc
18:46 admsyn so you know that lozano-hemmer work that's in the tunnel in NYC?
18:46 admsyn openframeworks / ofxAudioUnit :3
18:48 ofTheo oh no way
18:48 ofTheo is there a link for it?
18:48 admsyn creators project just put up a vid
18:48 ofTheo admsyn - are you filing issues for all these bugs?
18:48 ofTheo oh nice - going to check it
18:48 admsyn but it's just your typical "artist shows work" vid, no mention of oF or tools or anything
18:48 admsyn ofTheo: I am not, but I will
18:49 ofTheo thx!!!
18:50 kylemcd oftheo can you send me a list of the videos you used for that video?
18:52 ofTheo - I can send the video ids
18:52 ofTheo that might help?
18:52 ofTheo or the videos themselves?
18:52 ofTheo brb
18:56 kylemcd ids are enough
18:56 kylemcd ids are best actually
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19:44 admsyn if anyone's got time, the changelog still needs to be finished up
19:44 admsyn http://piratepad.net/OF-080-release-notes
19:48 admsyn even finding better ASCII art would be helpful :D
19:53 jvcleave so what is the approach/process of updating the release notes?
19:54 jvcleave For instance - I see some PR references
19:55 admsyn I put those in just so other people could flesh out the note
19:56 admsyn just in the major changes, where I thought it'd be helpful to have more info than e.g. "+ ofXml"
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21:01 SoylentGraham does github not produce automatic release notes (like, pick first & last commit) and generate a report from all the commit/issues between those times?
21:02 admsyn I think the new releases feature does something like that
21:02 admsyn but there's soooo much activity that it really needs human attention to make anything that's actually useful (for a changelof)
21:02 SoylentGraham (I'm still a massive novice with github so that might have been a pretty ignorant question)
21:02 admsyn *changelog
21:03 SoylentGraham yeah, I'd imagine you want to omit things like "change to formatting" commits and stuff
21:04 admsyn e.g. there's a lot of stuff that's fixing the programmable renderer, etc, but we don't really need to say "added a programmable renderer" and then "fixed programmable renderer" in the same changelog :)
21:04 SoylentGraham maybe they can add a tag to commits/issues which classify it
21:04 SoylentGraham yeah
21:04 SoylentGraham again, my ignorance, i figured there'd be a good continous integration thing
21:04 SoylentGraham and it turns out there is
21:05 admsyn there's travisCI
21:05 admsyn yeah
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22:30 kylemcd ofTheo can 0.8.0 ship without vs opencv 2.3.1 libs?
22:30 kylemcd or does it just not work?
22:30 ofTheo I think leo is taking care of it
22:30 ofTheo should be in soon
22:30 ofTheo but better to do it
22:31 kylemcd ok
22:34 kylemcd admsyn do you understand what the solution is for your light issue?
22:34 kylemcd i don't understand what arturo is saying
22:34 kylemcd are we supposed to just switch light/material examples to use glut?
22:35 kylemcd or can we use glfw with the fixed pipeline?
22:36 ofTheo yeah I'm not sure about the light stuff as well
22:36 kylemcd oftheo can we push the fontExample on iOS error back to 0.8.1 since it doesn't break anything?
22:37 kylemcd i'm trying to houseclean :)
22:37 ofTheo sure
22:37 ofTheo :D
22:37 ofTheo I think arturo is looking at the light issue
22:37 kylemcd ok cool
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22:41 kylemcd yeahhh
22:41 kylemcd go theo
22:42 ofTheo at this point I am tempted to let arturo have: https://github.com/openframewo​rks/openFrameworks/issues/2362
22:42 ofTheo if it really pisses people off - we fix in 0.8.1 ?
22:43 ofTheo super important to make a note about it though for the release
22:43 kylemcd hm
22:43 kylemcd i think arturo should have asked in advance before making the change
22:43 kylemcd it's very significant and kind of unfair that we have to argue it at the last minute
22:43 kylemcd but now that it's in there, we can just release and see how people respond
22:44 kylemcd in the future it would be better to do what everyone else does, which is post a description of old v new behavior and ask which one makes more sense to people
22:45 kylemcd but it's also just not good to bounce back and forth on these kinds of things, or people will feel uncomfortable with the api
22:46 kylemcd if you think we might switch back, i would say that we shouldn't allow it in at all
22:46 kylemcd but if you think he has a point and it's more "correct" this way, then we should all figure out how to make this way work better
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22:47 ofTheo I agree on all side
22:47 ofTheo *sides
22:47 ofTheo both it should have been made clear and its not good to bounce back and forth
22:48 ofTheo but the thing is it also fixes a lot of broken stuff  with fbos and cameras -
22:48 ofTheo but yeah
22:48 ofTheo I wouldn't mind zach weighing in on this
22:48 kylemcd i think if you see this as more correct, let's do it
22:48 ofTheo it is more correct
22:48 ofTheo and it is how we would have done things if we did it right the first time
22:49 ofTheo but it is a big change :)
22:49 kylemcd ok, i think we just need to explain clearly in the changelog then
22:50 kylemcd here's a more philosophical question: if you made OF from scratch today, would 2d space be top-left or bottom-left 0,0, and up+y or down+y
22:50 ofTheo haha -
22:51 ofTheo I originally argued for bottom left zero, zero - but was over ruled
22:51 kylemcd :)
22:52 ofTheo I like top left for 2D and positive Y = up for 3D
22:52 ofTheo but maybe thats because I'm used to it
22:52 ofTheo isn
22:52 ofTheo isn't Processing the same?
22:53 kylemcd processing doesn't have a '3d mode'
22:53 ofTheo peasy cam?
22:53 kylemcd there's peasycam but it's not official
22:53 kylemcd of sorry
22:53 kylemcd oh sorry
22:53 kylemcd actually there is begin/end camera
22:53 kylemcd hmm let me check
22:55 kylemcd no, in processing down is still +y in 3d
22:56 ofTheo ahh okay
22:56 ofTheo :)
22:57 kylemcd yeah it's a steady transition from 2d to 3d in processing
22:57 kylemcd you always have a 3d camera
22:57 kylemcd and you can manipulate the camera or the scene (if i'm reading it correctly)
22:58 kylemcd but begin/end camera is a relatively new api, so i'm not as familiar with it
22:58 ofTheo I have to head out - but will be back in a bit
22:58 kylemcd ok
22:58 ofTheo nerdy football match :)
22:58 ofTheo brb
22:59 kylemcd hah enjoy
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