Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #openframeworks, 2014-04-13

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Time Nick Message
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00:51 Chocky_ Hi, does the 'getting started' tutorial end abruptly at 'functions' for you? http://openframeworks.cc/tutorials/introduction/001_chapter1.html
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01:56 OliverUv yes
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08:51 mitchmindtree hey all :-) what's everyone up to?
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16:08 austinslominski Has anyone here had experience with ofxZxing?
16:11 austinslominski A lot of difficulty including it in my project. The examples work perfectly fine, it's just when I start my own project, I can't seem to get it linking correctly. Problems with finding LuminanceSource or something.
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16:28 Topic for #openframeworks is now Welcome to http://openframeworks.cc/ | logs at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/ | Apr 13 IRC Meetup notes: https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-April-13-2014-2ZuFHOGGTN2
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17:02 bilderbuchi heyho folks
17:02 admsyn hi bilderbuchi
17:03 bilderbuchi gotta be with you soon, gotta bring the little one to bed.
17:03 bilderbuchi brb
17:04 kylemcd joined #openframeworks
17:05 kylemcd hi everyone :)
17:05 kylemcd i’m going to ping zach and arturo
17:05 admsyn hey kylemcd
17:07 ofzach joined #openframeworks
17:07 kylemcd ah
17:07 kylemcd hah hah
17:07 dantheman joined #openframeworks
17:07 kylemcd nice nice
17:08 dantheman oooooo this hack pad is nice
17:09 kylemcd i’m not sure where arturo is, but don’t see him online anywhere
17:09 kylemcd but since zach is here i think we can just get started
17:09 ofzach hola
17:09 kylemcd hi :)
17:09 kylemcd item 1: 0.8.1 was released!
17:09 kylemcd congratulations everyone :)
17:10 admsyn :D
17:10 kylemcd especially to everyone who pushed hard to make it happen
17:10 kylemcd it’s always more work than expected, and theo put in some extra time to packaging that made it go smoothly
17:10 kylemcd it seems like the release candidate system was fairly succesful
17:10 ofzach I think RCs were a big help too
17:11 kylemcd just wanted to hear if anyone had any thoughts on the RCs
17:11 ofzach I sort of with they were more public
17:11 pizthewiz joined #openframeworks
17:11 ofzach (i.e., on the website) not just forum and dev list
17:11 dantheman and all over twitter
17:11 kylemcd they were on twitter too, but putting them on the website is an option
17:11 ofzach it's something to think about --
17:11 dantheman plastered everywhere
17:11 dantheman there is the blog right?
17:12 ofzach more places, and the more of them the better
17:12 ofzach yep...
17:12 dantheman http://blog.openframeworks.cc/
17:12 dantheman the cute little tumblr
17:12 ofzach we had to update the zips after the final release, that always feels bad
17:12 ofzach (because of an issue with include paths on the opencv examples)
17:12 dantheman or that is 0.8.2!
17:12 dantheman haha
17:13 mattmillerart what about tagging them so they appear on github as releases? see https://github.com/angular/angular.js/releases for a good example
17:13 dantheman bam hit a new release within mins of the old
17:13 bilderbuchi I'm back
17:13 kylemcd hey christoph :)
17:13 ofzach @mattmillerart one issue is we need to do a tons of zips per release
17:13 kylemcd mattmillerart we have tagged releases, but not RCs
17:14 kylemcd https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/tags
17:14 kylemcd the idea with RCs is that they’re a fairly quick cycle (maybe one week), with lots of automated stuff that doesn’t show up in github
17:14 ofzach yeah but that is just a snapshot of the repo at that time
17:15 kylemcd yeah, this is just a difference between maintaining a c++ library and a javascript library
17:15 ofzach one thing that feels good is releasing very often - RCs help inforce that
17:15 ofzach enforce...
17:16 kylemcd yeah
17:16 mattmillerart interesting. yea I hadn't considered all the generated stuff that is not within git
17:16 mattmillerart so tags don't really work in that sense
17:16 kylemcd yeah
17:16 bilderbuchi well, the tags still define the release versions, but the artifacts (i.e. built packages) are generated and hosted elsewhere (i.e.  of.cc)
17:16 kylemcd exactly
17:17 kylemcd one last 0.8.1 thought
17:17 mattmillerart but I agree that making them more public - ie listing them somewhere - would be beneficial
17:17 kylemcd it was 6 months from 0.7.4 to 0.8.0, and 8 months from 0.8.0 to 0.8.1
17:17 kylemcd does this seem like, on average, about the right interval for releases?
17:17 kylemcd or do we still want to aim for something faster?
17:18 ofzach no I think it should be faster
17:18 bilderbuchi faster
17:18 ofzach smaller and faster
17:18 ofzach (smaller in scope)
17:18 admsyn faster for sure
17:18 dantheman the bug fixes should go out like every 2 months
17:18 bilderbuchi I think automated build and testing will help a great deal. the moment we just have to push a tag to github, and get a pacakged release on the homepage, we will be able to iterate much more ioften
17:18 dantheman just roll up master -> stable
17:18 ofzach as we wait too long, it compounds the pain of release time - since people really want to make sure their fixes are in
17:19 ofzach and then things slip more -- it's a feedback loop
17:19 kylemcd ok
17:19 kylemcd in the hackpad, can we add some things to the list beneath “some things we can do”
17:19 dantheman yeah and then more things change
17:19 kylemcd any ideas you have for bringing it to closer to 2 months
17:19 dantheman and people don't have enough time to flesh out the bugs
17:19 bilderbuchi btw, currently wrestling with a Jenkins server, I'm wildly oscillating between "ooh, shiny new things to learn" and bashing my head against a wall. but it's coming.. :-)
17:20 dantheman script it
17:20 dantheman :P
17:20 ofzach haha
17:20 bilderbuchi script what, exactly, danthemanß
17:20 kylemcd https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-April-13-2014-2ZuFHOGGTN2
17:20 dantheman I mean there is always something getting pulled into master right?
17:20 dantheman might as well just zip up and call it 0.8.1.1
17:20 bilderbuchi nope
17:20 dantheman RC for 0.8.2
17:20 kylemcd we’ve got a few more things to discuss, i’m going to keep moving — please add any other thoughts on 0.8.1 and automation to the hackpad
17:21 kylemcd next!
17:21 bilderbuchi needs a changelog, compiled packages for 5+ platforms, ...
17:21 ofzach we spoke about this last time, but I think a tests folder will help for pull requests
17:21 bilderbuchi cf. the release checklist wiki doc on github
17:21 ofzach right now, there's a fair amount of overhead in dealing with a bug or feature request
17:21 kylemcd item 2: 0.8.2 goals and timeline
17:21 ofzach if there was quick sample code to try in a tests folder, it would help
17:21 bilderbuchi a tests folder will not reduce the overhead, but +10 anyway :-)
17:21 pizthewiz Would parallel bugfix and feature release branches help unblock some work? It seems to me that there is confusion about what certain releases allow in, and some PRs go mega stale as a result.
17:21 dantheman well for features a test should always be made and it if is a big feature an example made
17:22 dantheman before its pulled
17:22 bilderbuchi "should" being the imperative word.. but "will"? ;-)
17:22 dantheman pizthewiz: yup
17:22 ofzach this isn't getting done enough - tests will help this
17:22 dantheman bilderbuchi: hey this is IRC we can all think about things in the perfect world situation
17:22 bilderbuchi sure. someone has to write them, though
17:22 bilderbuchi hehe, indeed :-)
17:23 kylemcd i just added three things to the list from this discussion, please add any more notes to the hackpad for now :)
17:23 kylemcd item 2: 0.8.2 goals and timeline
17:23 bilderbuchi pizthewiz: feature and bugfix branches would help unblock some work, but will hinder other parts of the workflow (i.e. no way to redirect PRs, merging between bugfic and feature branches,...)
17:24 kylemcd https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues?milestone=15&state=open
17:24 bilderbuchi hey, just 50, nice :-)
17:24 kylemcd we have 51 open issues right now, and no due date scheduled
17:25 kylemcd the way due dates work is that it’s a suggestion for each other about our expectations
17:25 dantheman we need to confirm the state of each of these
17:25 kylemcd but we want to wait until we’ve met our goals rather than just releasing on time
17:25 dantheman like https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/2717
17:25 kylemcd so let’s decide what we want to get done, and minimize this list a bit
17:26 bilderbuchi get the criticals first: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues?labels=critical&milestone=15&page=1&state=open
17:26 bilderbuchi and the regressions: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues?labels=regression&milestone=15&page=1&state=open
17:26 pizthewiz Semantically a 0.0.X release doesn't allow much :0)
17:26 kylemcd pizthewiz, that’s totally correct
17:26 bilderbuchi we can always kick it up a layer if we need
17:26 kylemcd i think it would be interesting to basically go through this and see what is an api change or feature addition, and move it back
17:26 bilderbuchi but it's 33 bugs, and 4 features, so there's enough work to go around I think
17:27 kylemcd ah they’re already categorized :)
17:27 bilderbuchi yeah ;-)
17:27 bilderbuchi roughly, at least
17:27 kylemcd 33 bugs 4 features but that’s still 14 more?
17:27 pizthewiz My PR to not *require all OSC messages to be sent as bundles* could be considered a feature: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/2438
17:27 bilderbuchi as I said, roughly. also, some things don't fit either well
17:27 kylemcd ok
17:27 pizthewiz Though I really view it as a bug
17:28 bilderbuchi also, PRs don't have labels
17:28 kylemcd got it
17:28 bilderbuchi as the possibility to give labels to PRs only went live recently
17:28 kylemcd my proposal is: let’s move all features and api changes to 0.9.0 milestone
17:28 kylemcd and set a date for 2 months for 0.8.2
17:28 bilderbuchi sounds good, +1 from me
17:28 kylemcd what do you think ofzach
17:29 ofzach there's a few larger restructurings I'd like to get in to this release
17:29 bilderbuchi also, I'd like to request that we attack criticals and regressions first
17:29 dantheman so kylemcd eyeo release?
17:29 ofzach eyeo is a good target
17:29 kylemcd ofzach can you explain more
17:29 dantheman might as well do it up like Steve Jobs
17:29 dantheman who's talking
17:30 dantheman 'but wait there's more..... OF 0.8.2'
17:30 ofzach I really want to change where the project files are in relationship to the folder, for multi platform project generation
17:30 ofzach I think this is a must
17:30 dantheman ofzach: yeah I feel you on that one
17:30 ofzach I'm about halfway done on the new PG -- just started hacking on the gui this weekend
17:30 dantheman its hard to do iOS  and OSX
17:30 dantheman oh nice
17:31 ofzach and I'd like to get that and those changes (+ tests folder) in this release
17:31 dantheman I like the way james and kyle setup projects
17:31 ofzach we have some pain also now on ofApp vs testApp and the templates, that has to get solved
17:31 ofzach (where it's hard to generate project files for older code)
17:32 bilderbuchi ofzach: which testing framework are you considering currently?
17:32 dantheman is there a way to just read something that extends ofBaseApp
17:32 ofzach @bilderbuci I was thinking of something like folders with diff types of tests
17:32 dantheman bilderbuchi: I think we'd have to build our own
17:32 ofzach (performance, system, unit)
17:32 dantheman to account for the graphics and what not
17:32 ofzach unit tests would be similar to the work bruno has already done
17:33 ofzach very useful for functions like ofToString etc
17:33 bilderbuchi ofzach: of course, but it makes sense to use an established framework instead of cooking our own
17:33 ofzach sure -- I am really open, I just feel like tests can also be a place for "devApps" like projects
17:33 dantheman idk every place that I worked for graphics output we had to cook our own
17:33 bilderbuchi graphics are a challenge, but there's approaches out there, I think there was some good info in diasbruno's issue
17:33 ofzach that help show off a features as well but not yet examples, helps you try it in diff platforms, etc
17:34 kylemcd we’re getting a little mixed up with unit testing vs project generator vs 0.8.2 — let’s focus on 0.8.2 for now
17:34 dantheman but that is 0.8.2
17:34 dantheman or what I wish is it
17:34 ofzach I think tests should be done now
17:34 bilderbuchi yeah, I already proposed to separate PG and tests, at least
17:34 ofzach and PG changes should be done now as well (both for 0.8.2)
17:35 kylemcd that would be amazing, but i’m not sure it’s realistic
17:35 dantheman so lets start with the stuff that we could use a harness for
17:35 bilderbuchi +1 kyle
17:35 dantheman like all of the maths
17:35 kylemcd if we have volunteers for each of these things, then i agree
17:35 bilderbuchi dantheman: that's already partly done
17:35 dantheman hey
17:35 dantheman look
17:35 dantheman is in it the repo?
17:35 dantheman can I haxor it
17:35 bilderbuchi see https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/1068
17:35 ofzach I see "tests" not only for automation but for small snippets / etc ---
17:36 ofzach this is also just changing devApps and rearranging things
17:36 bilderbuchi @diasbruno started implementing this ages ago, including travis builds, even
17:36 dantheman ofzach: right like you have a test for ofMap
17:36 stephanschulz joined #openframeworks
17:36 dantheman or makeRotation
17:36 ofzach yeah I feel like a lot of times we need a sandbox to explain a problem or solution
17:36 dantheman ofzach: most def
17:37 bilderbuchi imo, the tests folder should only contain stuff we can let a machine run and confirm as correct
17:37 bilderbuchi be that unit, integration, performance, whatever tests
17:37 ofzach imo, we should have tests/unit for machine testing
17:37 dantheman when I hit this bug https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/2834 I could only show it in a very very small use case
17:38 ofzach I don't know -- I feel like we need something between devApps which is a mess and a machine only folder
17:38 bilderbuchi ofzach: sure. but integration, too, no? performance, too. what would you additionally see as a "test" fitting in there, which can't be run automatically, and does not fit in devapps?
17:38 dantheman and couldn't reproduce it without the specific steps an addon took to make an FBO
17:38 ofzach system (for testing specific platform code)
17:39 dantheman +1
17:39 ofzach performance I don't think needs to be automated
17:39 bilderbuchi why are system test not automated/automatable?
17:39 ofzach it could be but I think it's also useful to have things that people run on their own platforms, for comparison etc
17:39 bilderbuchi you mean like glexample, e.g.?
17:40 ofzach sure, there can also be a feature and bugs folder
17:40 bilderbuchi also, I'd like to remark that running automatedly does not exclude people from running it manually, too
17:40 ofzach where people can post ideas / usage/ etc related to features or bugs
17:40 ofzach sure-
17:40 dantheman automated vs not automated means the app doesn't auto cycle haha
17:40 ofzach I just think we can do this before we have frameworks in place
17:40 dantheman you have to hit the next button
17:40 bilderbuchi > where people can post ideas / usage/ etc related to features or bugs
17:40 bilderbuchi I think that is more suitable in the issue tracker, not in the source
17:40 dantheman i'm thinking of a clouds type app...
17:41 ofzach no I don't think so -- I feel like we need a sandbox with non shipping code for working against OF in the repo
17:41 dantheman well CloudsVisualSystemEditor
17:41 dantheman where you click a thing and the test plays
17:41 ofzach we've had this with devApps, it's a mess, I'm suggesting to clean this up
17:42 bilderbuchi I see, I think.
17:42 ofzach def would be in favor of something like CloudsVisualSystemEditor as well - run through everything
17:42 bilderbuchi but why not clean devapps up, then?
17:42 ofzach I did, I renamed it tests :)
17:42 bilderbuchi > CloudsVisualSystemEditor
17:42 bilderbuchi not familiar with that, is that like the testallexamples.sh script?
17:42 bilderbuchi :D
17:42 bilderbuchi ^^
17:43 ofzach yep it runs everything
17:43 dantheman looks like this http://i.imgur.com/jXpc4dp.png
17:43 bilderbuchi nice
17:43 dantheman your 'app' runs in the single window and then you have your VisualSystems in a selectable list
17:44 dantheman you see that RUN TESTS button
17:44 dantheman hah
17:44 ofzach we can next this - I just think all these things should happen and will only help get OF releases out faster
17:44 bilderbuchi definitely
17:44 kylemcd ok
17:44 dantheman ofzach: yes yes
17:44 kylemcd i want to come back to this at the end if we can
17:44 dantheman ofzach: lets get working on it
17:44 bilderbuchi I'd like to caution though, when people see a "tests" folder, the assumption is that those are automated tests (only)
17:44 kylemcd are we all thinking 2 months for 0.8.2 right now?
17:45 admsyn +1
17:45 pizthewiz Yes please
17:45 bilderbuchi imo unrealistic, if we want to get the new PG and tests and the 40 ~ bugs in
17:45 ofzach @bilderduchi, we can have a readme
17:45 ofzach +1 -- I think PG is done this week
17:45 bilderbuchi oh, nice!
17:45 kylemcd i think if we are aiming at 40 bugs, 2 months might be realistic with some aggressive work to push the right people
17:45 ofzach it's very fugly, but I'm implementing the gui from japan: http://imgur.com/JSgPZff,LU4zGFo#1
17:46 ofzach I have a lot of questions for @kikko_fr and whoever else put this in the roadmap
17:46 dantheman ofzach: fugly no
17:46 kylemcd regarding the pg and tests, those aren’t tracked by the issue tracker at the moment so they don’t count ;)
17:46 dantheman we just gotta figure out how to bring back the update app
17:47 kylemcd ofzach maybe we can do a meeting between you, me, and kikko
17:47 kylemcd i outlined it to kikko, then he took it and fleshed out the details and user interaction
17:47 bilderbuchi I'll move everything tagged feature back to 0.9
17:47 bilderbuchi k?
17:47 kylemcd bilderbuchi: thanks
17:47 kylemcd next!
17:48 kylemcd item 5: GSoC update
17:48 kylemcd is there anyone here involved with gsoc?
17:48 kylemcd caitlin, lauren, christopher?
17:48 ofzach I was on all the emails, can talk about it
17:49 austinslominski joined #openframeworks
17:49 kylemcd thanks — can you say where things have been since we got the offer to join with processing foundation for this round?
17:49 ofzach sure - we got 4 applicants
17:49 dantheman nice
17:49 ofzach there was only one really good application
17:50 ofzach I guess there's a thing with GSOC where people apply alot
17:50 kylemcd presumably not for the project generator? :)
17:50 bilderbuchi ofzach: yeah, I've seen this in other projects, too
17:50 ofzach so we had people who apply with no experience in OF -- they don't have forum accounts, etc
17:50 ofzach the one who applied is a student of christophers at SAIC
17:50 kylemcd that’s difficult. sounds like we need to do more outreach next time.
17:51 ofzach yeah I missed teaching at parsons this time
17:51 bilderbuchi we'll be better/earlier prepared next time.
17:51 ofzach I think it helps to email directly to school mailing lists
17:51 ofzach also, I think there was some trepidation about putting info out publically
17:51 ofzach because of the p5 covering for us
17:52 ofzach we didn't want them to get assaulted with qs
17:52 bilderbuchi shouldn't we farm our communities first, if we don'T want people w/o OF experience?
17:52 bilderbuchi isntead of mailing schools?
17:52 ofzach I think it would have been good to use the mailing list -- it's probably a better bat call then twitter
17:52 kylemcd bilderbuchi: we put out a tweet and a forum post, but i think ofzach means “mailing lists of classes you’ve been associated with"
17:52 ofzach mailing list for schools
17:52 ofzach (like I can email all the students at parsons, or ITP, etc)
17:53 kylemcd right
17:53 ofzach or mailing lists of your students
17:53 bilderbuchi ah I see
17:53 kylemcd (not just random schools)
17:53 ofzach but I also feel like the OF mailing list is good for very specific asks
17:53 ofzach maybe better then twitter
17:53 ofzach since I feel like a forwarding email is bigger then a retweet
17:53 kylemcd so where are we with this one student? are we taking them up on the offer? :)
17:53 bilderbuchi the thing about gsoc, it's intended (also) to help projects attract new contributors, which stay on after gsoc is over
17:54 ofzach anyway, the person who is selected is great
17:54 bilderbuchi I think the probability for that is higher the more involved people are before gsoc
17:54 dantheman of-students@googlegroups.com
17:54 ofzach his name is brannon, he'll be helping christopher with the ofSketch project
17:55 dantheman brannon is AWESOME
17:55 kylemcd (fyi that google group does not exist)
17:55 dantheman kylemcd: make it!
17:55 kylemcd awesome, glad to hear :)
17:55 ofzach yeah he's been helping a lot for the OF book also
17:55 bilderbuchi kyle: thx, I just tried to find it, too :D
17:55 ofzach I think things are with P5 now they are working it out
17:55 bilderbuchi @brannondorsey, then? nice, +1 :-)
17:56 ofzach I'll check with daniel about where things are at ... they were concerned that they get their numbers this summer, google promised to add ours on, I think they just want to make sure that promise is kepy
17:56 ofzach kept
17:56 kylemcd great
17:56 kylemcd thanks for the recap :)
17:56 kylemcd next!
17:56 bilderbuchi great to hear that we got one, at least!
17:56 kylemcd item 6: ofBook update
17:57 kylemcd is rachel around by any chance?
17:57 kylemcd i saw her in belgrade but haven’t spoken since
17:57 ofzach no I'm not sure she is on the dev list
17:57 ofzach (not everyone on the book list is on the dev list)
17:58 kylemcd aha
17:58 ofzach I can recap the book if it's helpful
17:58 kylemcd i didn’t realize
17:58 kylemcd yes please
17:58 ofzach it's getting there -- slowly, but surely
17:58 ofzach I think we have a fair number of chapters that are at about 90-95% with a few that are done
17:59 dantheman created https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/OF-students
17:59 ofzach there are some chapters that are straggling as well, we're pushing people
17:59 ofzach overall, it's a really insane amount of work already put in so far:
17:59 ofzach https://github.com/openframeworks/ofBook
18:00 ofzach the design team is starting to look at automating the layout of this -- we've had some issues with pandoc but that's getting resolved
18:00 ofzach the editing help has been amazing so far
18:00 admsyn indeed!
18:00 mattmillerart really excited about OF book and the progress!!!
18:00 mattmillerart looks great
18:01 ofzach I think once we have a good work flow for visualizing the output (pdf, html) it will help
18:01 ofzach there's a pass we need to make around standardization we need to make
18:02 kylemcd i’ve been watching the activity, and really happy to see a few more ladies like caitlin, kayla, eva, tega… all getting involved
18:02 ofzach and I think there are a few missing chapters (shaders, etc) that would be awesome to try to get into the book if we can
18:02 ofzach yeah eva's chapter is really a model for the project breakdowns:
18:02 ofzach https://github.com/openframeworks/ofBook/tree/master/project_eva
18:02 dantheman nice!
18:02 kylemcd so. good.
18:02 ofzach anyway I'd say we are getting there
18:02 ofzach (brb)
18:03 kikko_fr (hi sry it's hectic around me atm, I'll be back in 15min to discuss the PG if needed)
18:03 pizthewiz What is the maintenance plan for ofBook? Will it be updated in unison to API and project changes in oF?
18:03 dantheman I've been letting Blair he needs to finish is Projector article/guide/chapter
18:03 dantheman and submit it
18:03 kylemcd dantheman: i think that’s more creativeapps fodder, but i’m also looking forward to it
18:04 kylemcd thanks ofzach :) also curious what we’re expecting in terms of timeline for completion
18:04 ofzach I don't know what the plan is, I think we'll leave it on github like the pro-git book so can take changes
18:04 dantheman would make a nice appendix
18:04 dantheman its like 15 pages now
18:04 dantheman or something like that
18:04 dantheman or 25
18:04 dantheman he keeps going
18:04 ofzach timeline is tricky, we've been setting deadlines but it's hard for people to juggle this and work -- memo and golan both need some more time
18:04 kylemcd pizthewiz: the layout process should be automated in the end (i think), so it will theoretically be possible to keep it up to date
18:05 kylemcd do we have a hard date for book release, or is it more like “once everyone is done"?
18:05 ofzach I would be happy to have it done for eyeo
18:05 bilderbuchi layout: it is, at least mostly. automated pdf generation works
18:05 dantheman I was gonna try and do something with the armlinux stuff but I got distracted
18:05 kylemcd seems like there is some point we coudl get to where it’s “complete” — then say 1 month from that point, and anything that gets done before that point is just making it more awesome
18:05 dantheman the deadlines scared me so I kinda backed away
18:06 kylemcd “complete” meaning most of the stuff is written and the automated layout is in place
18:06 kylemcd then anything additional means: more chapters, better editing, better layout
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18:06 ofzach yep - eyeo is my target date for this
18:06 dantheman if we don't have the goal of printing it and making it an digital only it could be constantly updating
18:06 bilderbuchi it should build automatically already
18:07 bilderbuchi hey arturo!
18:07 kylemcd bilderbuchi: but is it pretty? :)
18:07 ofzach it looks very latexy!
18:07 dantheman haha
18:07 bilderbuchi heh, pff. I guess so, when the design team finishes the css? Also, what's prettier than LAtex?
18:07 bilderbuchi :D
18:07 ofzach :)
18:07 bilderbuchi well, it _is_ Latex
18:07 dantheman ofzach: interesting
18:07 arturo hey
18:07 bilderbuchi at least the pdf, version, that is
18:08 kylemcd hah hah
18:08 kylemcd well if we’re aiming for eyeo, and the whole process of building it is in place
18:09 kylemcd then it sounds like it’s down to people completing their chapters by then — and if they’re not complete, including them in the next version instead?
18:09 bilderbuchi I'm not up to date on the state of the css for the html version.
18:10 ofzach I will have a lot of face time with the designers when SFPC starts in a week or so... I know they were looking at this, but I think they had the same pandoc issues
18:10 ofzach they did a fair amount of work so far though so it should be pretty easy, and it's fairly standardized now
18:11 kylemcd great
18:11 ofzach we can next this -- the book is getting there, I'm very excited about everything people are doing.  it's a really warm community and it suggests dif ways of expanding involvement with OF not just development
18:11 kylemcd thanks :)
18:11 kylemcd next!
18:11 kylemcd (and last)
18:11 kylemcd item 7: Finalizing the roadmap
18:12 kylemcd about half a year ago we created the roadmap at ycam
18:12 kylemcd i’ve been out of commission for a bit, but i’d like to take reponsibility for turning the roadmap into a finalized document we can act on
18:13 dantheman 1+++++++++
18:13 kylemcd for reference, here’s the document again https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GjgjQZCHTcOD3cT9OFSl0AZ1nhfYwwvxTl5L4OJE6qA/edit?usp=sharing
18:13 dantheman kylemcd: just make sure you include a data section in the update
18:14 kylemcd this is a huge document, with a lot of ideas and desires from different people
18:14 dantheman yep yep
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18:14 dantheman I just thought it was strange last summer when I saw this and was like...but where is all the DATA haha
18:14 kylemcd but i think it’s possible to create something unified that is less specific than our github issues, and provides general direction for what it important to us in the mid term
18:14 kylemcd dantheman what do you mean data?
18:15 bilderbuchi the robot from star trek?
18:15 bilderbuchi :D
18:15 dantheman so ways to access sql* whatever in the core
18:15 dantheman ways to get more than a HTTP GET
18:15 bilderbuchi you mean, xml? :D
18:15 dantheman you know we gotta have data to draw
18:15 dine909 hi - is this the right place to ask for a spot of help in understanding 3d rotation?
18:15 kylemcd hey dine909
18:16 kylemcd we’re about to finish a monthly meeting
18:16 kylemcd but i’m sure someone could help you in about 15-20 minutes
18:16 dine909 oh ok sorry - :) i'll sit in the corner over there
18:16 dantheman bilderbuchi: but everything is more than xml these days
18:16 dantheman but just my 2cents
18:16 kylemcd dine909: sorry! glad to have you here :)
18:16 dantheman basically things I wanna add and build
18:17 arturo dine909 you can also ask in the forum
18:17 kylemcd dantheman: there might be some conflicting opinions on this
18:17 kylemcd personally, i don’t do much with OF and raw data unless i’m doing glitch work
18:17 kylemcd i expect OF to work well with a small number of supported formats
18:18 kylemcd like images, videos, sound, xml, and 3d files
18:18 kylemcd and for retrieving stuff off the web, using APIs, etc, i generally use scripts external to OF
18:18 kylemcd i think it’s worth starting a thread on of-dev about the possibility of making OF more web API/web data friendly
18:18 bilderbuchi I'd add json, too, probably
18:18 dantheman I have
18:19 dantheman and we said yes!
18:19 ofzach of-dev is good place to discuss changes to the doc
18:19 kylemcd what was the subject?
18:19 dantheman HTTP calls which is a start
18:19 kylemcd ah from last year 8/17 ?
18:19 dantheman I have a branch I need to clean up again to remove a couple bad commits but its super stable
18:20 dantheman was like september/october I think
18:20 kylemcd i remember this
18:20 kylemcd yeah
18:20 dantheman yeah nothing earth shatter just exposing more of stuff built into poco already
18:20 kylemcd if you see a section in the roadmap where this fits, it would be great to add it
18:20 dantheman there is one
18:21 kylemcd but to me it feels more like a specific feature that belongs on github
18:21 kylemcd under “network"?
18:22 dantheman we'll figure it out
18:22 kylemcd ok
18:22 ofzach I am v. much in favor of getting this online
18:22 ofzach i feel like we need to work through sidebar items
18:22 ofzach and get feedback to the doc
18:22 ofzach incorporate it in
18:22 kylemcd anyway, the goal for me is to create a document where people can read it publicly and say “oh, so that’s what the future of OF will look like”
18:22 dantheman yeah I guess some of this would fit under Network
18:23 kylemcd where we agree about it, hopefully unanimously
18:23 kylemcd which means incoporating the sidebar items and getting more feedback, absolutely
18:24 kylemcd hopefully this document can also help people answer the common question “how can i help”
18:25 kylemcd and guide us with future GSoC and grant things
18:25 dantheman yes
18:25 dantheman +1
18:25 kylemcd so if anyone has other comments about the roadmap, let me know — here or later
18:25 kylemcd but i’m just going to be working with what we have already
18:25 dantheman I read it as a how I can contribute and trying to fit what I'm good at and what I want OF to become into where the community wants
18:25 dantheman it to go
18:26 arturo what would be a good way of finishing this? we did the original document in the last minute at YCAM so i'm not sure if everything is what we agreed during the conference or more what people felt like it was necesary to do
18:26 arturo we would need to somehow review it collaboratively and agree on the points i guess
18:26 ofzach maybe opening it up on the forum thread of dev list thread again? try to work through sidebar points ?
18:26 kylemcd hm
18:27 kylemcd i was feeling that we generally agreed on it?
18:27 ofzach there were things I disagreed with like calling swappable components addons, for example
18:27 ofzach this is something I'd like to discuss somehow not just in a sidebar
18:27 admsyn ofzach: do you mean the core addons?
18:28 ofzach I mean different videoplayers, etc -- core components
18:28 kylemcd ofzach ok
18:28 arturo yes i think mostly we agreed on everything but we never really went over everything and also people that weren't there didn't gave their opinion
18:28 ofzach so I feel like we need a forum that's different then the document itself to discuss, (a) do we agree with everything (b) what's missing
18:28 arturo ofzach the core components as addons is a really good idea i think :) but yes let's talk about it
18:29 kylemcd the document in its current form was posted a while ago, and there have only been a few sidebar items (like naming of swappable components)
18:29 ofzach I think there will be more, if people feel like this is going to go public at some point
18:30 ofzach @arturo I'd love to discuss this on the forum or dev list  :) the sidebar seems not great place to do this kind of discussion
18:30 kylemcd personally, i think it’s worth doing a write up of the document in its current form
18:30 kylemcd as a first iteration that synthesizes everything into a single document
18:30 kylemcd then branch out from there into discussion again
18:30 ofzach sure --
18:30 kylemcd and synthesize changes into a new document
18:31 ofzach i just want to make sure that people who weren't in japan get some input
18:31 kylemcd that said, if you want to start discussion in advance that you don’t think has been handled on the of-dev list or in the sidebars, go for it :)
18:31 ofzach cool cool
18:31 kylemcd also, if you have a lot of input maybe we can just meet up
18:32 kylemcd given the lack of discussion after the roadmap was posted, i can only assume that people don’t have that much input
18:32 kylemcd or we failed at making them feel included
18:32 ofzach no I think that the document was put out like "read only"
18:33 ofzach like, here's this document, don't add to it, put comments in the sidebar
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18:33 ofzach but we've had no discussion about how to process it
18:33 ofzach I think consolidation will be helpful
18:33 ofzach and then discussion in advance of publication is helpful
18:33 arturo sure i think there's still a couple of things that weren't really clear even for the people that were there
18:34 ofzach yeah I think also if we make it more r/w then read only it will help
18:34 kylemcd hm, just checked the original email and you’re right it might have been confusing
18:34 kylemcd i wrote “this shouldn't be a document for discussion in itself, but a place to state philosophies and plans. “
18:35 ofzach it was very unclear where discussion should happen
18:35 kylemcd but it was r/w from the beginning, and i also said “if you feel like you can explain the philosophy behind a section, or you know a good implementation for something, add it! direct contributions to anything that hasn't been filled out are very welcome.”
18:35 kylemcd i’ll try to set up a more clear means of discussion than just an of-dev thread next time
18:35 ofzach cool cool - from non .jp perspective it was unclear
18:37 kylemcd ok
18:38 ofzach next? done?
18:38 kylemcd i’m going to stick around if anyone wants to talk about topics from earlier again — but let’s call this meeting adjourned :)
18:38 ofzach :)
18:39 kylemcd see you all around :)
18:39 kikko_fr kylemcd ofzach there were questions abount the PG ?
18:39 kylemcd if you got here late, check out the logs http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/2014-04-13
18:39 ofzach I'd love to ask a few PG 2.0 qs if @kikko_fr is around
18:39 kylemcd kikko_fr yeah let’s talk
18:39 kylemcd or maybe us three can hangout for a sec
18:39 ofzach (also @dine909 had some qs)
18:39 kylemcd yeah dine909 go for it :)
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18:40 dine909 but after reading all that i think i'm in the wrong place lol
18:40 admsyn ofzach: you mentioned doing some work on parsing the pbxproj file format a few months ago? Did that get figured out?
18:40 pizthewiz Sidebar - it seems like there is an emerging documentation need for addons / project setup. So so so many forum posts / IRC requests on people failing to get an addon into an existing project or how to build examples and what not…
18:41 ofzach @admsyn, I have had good luck with this, but I'm not using that now
18:41 kylemcd pizthewiz: this has been a problem with OF from the first addon that ever had more than .h and .cpp files
18:41 ofzach this 2.0 PG should help -- since it does updates
18:41 kylemcd i think the best solution for now is better tools (PG) not documentation of existing tools
18:41 admsyn ofzach: nice :)
18:41 dine909 infact, this is like joe bum asking bill gates for tips on windows… i'm going to go and learn more because my question is really below you!
18:41 pizthewiz In addition to addons, there are tons of simple compile time hangups too - maybe the setup guides need another pass soon?
18:41 ofzach all questions are good questions !
18:41 kylemcd dine909 c’mon go for it we’re all in this together ;)
18:42 ofzach @pizthewiz def...  I also think the more people know about errors the better
18:42 admsyn pizthewiz: someone revamped the Xcode setup guide during the documentation push last month, don't know where that went?
18:43 ofzach one thing I've been thinking about recently is how to supply info for beginners in the best way when they download OF this needs a lot of work
18:43 dine909 right ok - im using ofxaruco to ultimately detect the placement of 144 boards!
18:43 dine909 they are actually panels of a video wall
18:43 dine909 i have been playing with 2 panels and attempting to get the rotation of panel B in respect to panel A
18:44 pizthewiz I'm all for people struggling and learning but it feels like we are missing out on something given the large number of support requests on seemingly simple tasks like building an example, building oF on their platform or how to add an addon.
18:44 arturo dine909, ofxaruco will return a matrix to do the gl transformation if i remember well
18:44 arturo you can use matrix.getMatrixDecomposition() to get rotation, translation...
18:45 arturo but perhaps ask in the forum is better for questions with long answers like this
18:45 dine909 would that be for the model or the view?
18:45 dine909 ok you are right
18:45 ofzach @pizthewiz agree - I think we need tool improvements but also basic docs improvements -- any advice / help there is super appreciated
18:45 arturo what you get is the view i think so you'll probably need to invert it
18:46 kylemcd ofzach kikko_fr join #ofpg
18:46 pizthewiz ofzach: Maybe we could have a core set of documents that are reviewed with every release, like at least the setup guides? Better calling out which versions of what tools/OS are supported?
18:47 dine909 arturo, you are right i shall research more and drop one in forum, the difficulty i have is getting a set of xyz rotation values in degrees that seem sane even before inversion.
18:49 pizthewiz bilderbuchi: Really good to see some C++11 stuff in ofBook, does oF build with C++11 yet? I could have sworn I tried a while back on the Raspberry Pi so I could get at auto/std::function/std::bind/nullptr…
18:50 dine909 thanks for the help, and framework! good job.
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18:54 bilderbuchi pizthewiz: yeah, but not everwhere and not by default, yet. see https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/2577
18:56 pizthewiz bilderbuchi: Awesome, so it should work on Linux then? I tried with make CXX=clang++ CC=clang CFLAGS=-stdlib=libstdc++ and it seemed to blow up.
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