Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #openframeworks, 2014-09-12

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21:27 pizthewiz @admsyn: We don't have a minimum OS X version yet for 0.9.0, do we have a minimum Xcode version?
21:27 pizthewiz (AKA: minimum clang features)
21:32 admsyn pizthewiz: same deal I imagine
21:32 admsyn does Xcode 4 do C++11?
21:32 pizthewiz Is there a good spot to propose something?
21:32 admsyn yeah the dev list for sure
21:32 admsyn alternatively next IRC meeting in ~3 weeks
21:33 pizthewiz Yeah, it looks like Xcode 4.2 added C++0x, but ideally we'd go at least to 4.4 which was the last of the 4 branch
21:33 pizthewiz Oh actually there was 4.5
21:33 pizthewiz Hmm, only Xcode 5 and later supported arm64…
21:33 admsyn is there an issue where using 4.something is holding back progress?
21:34 admsyn I don't think it's even possible to get Xcode 4 at this point, I *personally* think Xcode 5 as minimum is very safe
21:35 admsyn though I think this is the sort of thing that people who workshop / teach regularly would have a better opinion on, as that's really the impetus for minimum versions I think
21:35 admsyn I just taught a workshop where someone was 10.7 / Xcode 4 for instance
21:39 pizthewiz Yeah no doubt.
21:40 pizthewiz I was just looking at what Objective-C language features we could use in OF
21:40 pizthewiz And a lot of the features are tied to clang
21:42 admsyn the danger zone™
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21:45 admsyn what sort of things though?
21:45 pizthewiz -[NSArray firstObject]
21:45 admsyn oh, yeah :p
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21:45 pizthewiz Automatically synthesized properties and instance variable creation
21:45 admsyn yeah that's good stuff
21:45 pizthewiz NSArray, NSDictionary, NSNumber literals
21:45 admsyn and I think ios is still not ARC
21:45 pizthewiz NSArray/NSDictionary subscripting
21:45 pizthewiz I don't think any of it requires ARC though no?
21:45 admsyn I think there's some stuff that's just not available in 32bit
21:45 admsyn admittedly it's been awhile since I've done anything that meaningfully incorporated both Obj-C and OF
21:45 pizthewiz Yeah "modern runtime" stuff.
21:45 admsyn I forgot how behind the OF-view of obj-c is
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21:45 pizthewiz I was just looking at the AV Foundation player PR and thinking we could cut down on a town of code
21:45 * admsyn has been doing an all-obj-c project for the last couple months
21:45 pizthewiz er, cut down on a ton of code
21:45 admsyn a whole town ~~~
21:45 pizthewiz A small town mind you
21:45 pizthewiz But larger than a village
21:45 admsyn at least with that sort of stuff it's just internal cleanup once the axe gets dropped on older Xcodes
21:46 pizthewiz Yeah, I guess the hangup is we haven't defined our minimums yet :0)
21:46 pizthewiz I'm not sure how the iOS camp is supporting arm64 if they don't require Xcode 5 though
21:46 admsyn I'd be a little hesitant to start pulling in the fancy new stuff just because if it *does* break on older Xcodes it's gonna be real confusing for all OF users that don't know Obj-C
21:46 admsyn which I'd hazard to guess is like 90%+ :)
21:47 pizthewiz True, but we'll teach the unwashed masses via idiomatic Objective-C rather than kicking it old school.
21:47 admsyn hah :p
21:48 pizthewiz And arguabally the number of Objective-C coders has exploded, so it is likely that for many stuff like ARC and modern runtime features is what they know.
21:48 admsyn *or* we could go totally left field, skip all that and just re-implement all the OF Obj-C stuff in swift
21:49 pizthewiz Then we'd require Xcode 6 which I think we might have some trouble pitching…
21:49 admsyn true thing
21:49 admsyn so is the gatekeeper for auto synthesizing etc 4.last?
21:50 pizthewiz (clang shipped in) Xcode 4.4 I think added that
21:50 pizthewiz Ah ha: https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/releasenotes/ObjectiveC/ObjCAvailabilityIndex/index.html
21:50 pizthewiz One of the best hidden Objective-C pages yet
21:50 admsyn well that makes it easy
21:51 admsyn there's actually very few that don't require the modern runtime..
21:51 pizthewiz Yeah, if we did 4.5 we'd be in good shape language wise, then the next thing we'd want is the modern runtime
21:52 pizthewiz Yeah, literals, forward decelerations, autorelease pool blocks
21:52 pizthewiz The weidest are the @YES and @NO literals which require builiding against an 10.8+ SDK
21:54 admsyn I can't run through all the combinations off the top of my head, but I think it'd be safe to do the AVFoundation stuff in "modern" obj-c?
21:55 admsyn since it'd always be on the modern runtime
21:55 admsyn because if you had to downgrade, you wouldn't be able to use the AVFoundation stuff anyway
21:55 admsyn I think
21:56 pizthewiz I believe the player uses API added in 10.8
21:57 pizthewiz But it could still be built i386 on 10.8 though no?
21:57 pizthewiz Like say someone had some addon with vendor supplied static libs that were i386 only.
21:58 pizthewiz Unless the player is only selected when 10.8 and later and LP64 at least…
21:58 pizthewiz These transitions are such pains, I'd almost rather we made the leap than stretch out the pain :0)
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