Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #openframeworks, 2014-10-12

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Time Nick Message
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16:58 nongio hi all
16:59 admsyn hi!
16:59 nongio meetup time?
16:59 admsyn yepp
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17:01 kylemcd yoyoyo
17:01 Topic for #openframeworks is now Welcome :) Site: http://openframeworks.cc/ Logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/ Oct 12 meetup notes https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-October-12-2014
17:01 admsyn hey!
17:02 caitlin_ hi all :)
17:02 ofTheo hey all!
17:02 kylemcd actually, if you’re here, could you say “hi”?
17:02 kylemcd it looks like we’ve got a bunch of people, and we can get started — just want to see who is here and who is idling
17:03 nongio :)  here
17:05 kylemcd ok well let’s get started :)
17:05 kylemcd agenda is in the topic, here it is again: https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-October-12-2014
17:05 kylemcd first item is from caitlin_ who i thought was on a plane…?
17:05 arturo hey!
17:05 ofTheo hey hey!
17:05 kylemcd hey :)
17:05 kylemcd caitlin_ has a new survey prepared https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1bOqDDfGdvM_I3ZJKze2g77YRMrth_21S278rSLgA7JU/viewform
17:05 kylemcd let’s check it out together for a few minutes
17:06 kylemcd there’s been a few things about gsoc and documentation added
17:06 caitlin_ yeah I had time zones mixed up + a plane delay so I'm on a layover :)
17:06 kylemcd ah great
17:07 admsyn looks good :)
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17:08 arturo something that might be worth is putting a link to it on the download page or something like that, last year comparing the platform results with stats from the downloads
17:08 ofTheo yeah was going to suggest the same!
17:08 arturo it would seem like the people who did the survey were from certain parts of the world only
17:08 kylemcd great point
17:08 ofTheo but this is a really nice survey.
17:08 arturo probably people in other places won't follow the same channels, twitter...
17:08 kylemcd i think we had it on the front page last year for a bit? maybe not
17:08 ofTheo the only downside is it being in English, it will also skew the results a bit
17:09 kylemcd definitely
17:09 kylemcd maybe we could get spanish & japanese translations?
17:09 caitlin___ yeah it would be great to have it on the downloads page
17:09 caitlin___ translations would be awesome :)
17:09 ofTheo could be great! especially seeing the big OF meet up recently in japan
17:09 admsyn you all saw that #ofseminar or whatever right? :)
17:09 arturo i can do spanish, there's also a couple of chinese users in the dev list
17:09 nongio maybe for the “Other place we can find you online” could be better a textarea
17:10 kylemcd i would really love chinese, i have a really hard time telling what the status of OF in china is
17:10 caitlin___ i think i chinese translation would be really nice, there's a big user base in beijing that i know of
17:10 caitlin___ we could ping the chinese speakers on the dev list and i also have a bunch of native chinese OF students i could possible recruit
17:10 kylemcd also, here’s the japanese workshop (series) admsyn is talking about https://twitter.com/search?q=ofseminar
17:11 ofTheo yeah it looks amazing!
17:11 caitlin___ more space for "other places we can find you"? yeah that's good
17:12 admsyn there's nothing about addons in the survey
17:12 caitlin___ ah ah @admsyn you are totally right
17:12 admsyn not sure what I'd even ask, but it is kind of a big deal about using OF in 2014
17:12 kylemcd good call
17:13 nongio @admsyn look at the “Do you contribute to openFrameworks in any way? Tell us how!” section
17:13 admsyn maybe even something as simple as "have you ever used an addon, if not why"
17:13 caitlin___ yeah for sure! i wonder what stats we already have through ofxaddons.com, i should ask gene
17:13 admsyn ah good point nongio
17:13 admsyn was thinking more from an everyday user's perspective though
17:13 admsyn like "have you figured out how to do it or was it really frustrating"
17:13 caitlin___ yeah i would be interested in what makes it difficult to use them, etc
17:13 caitlin___ right
17:14 admsyn because I'd guess there's a large lurker population that hasn't figured it out and has gotten frustrated
17:14 caitlin___ things that OFPlugin maybe helps with but not everyone knows about that
17:15 caitlin___ yeah that's definitely valuable, i think it might make most sense to add that into the "help / resources" section since it's in line with general oF user difficulties + successes
17:15 caitlin___ thanks for catching that @admsyn
17:15 ofTheo but this looks great - its going to be amazing to look through the responses. it always feels like a big mystery, who uses OF
17:16 admsyn np :) it's really only a minor nitpick, it looks pretty solid
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17:16 kylemcd ok great, any other thoughts?
17:17 kylemcd oh, wrt translation — maybe put out a quick email on of-dev asking for translation of the survey
17:17 kylemcd if we don’t get anything in a few days we can ask on twitter too — but i suspect someone will be able to help
17:17 caitlin___ one of my other big questions was whether to include references to ofBook and ofSketch in the survey
17:17 kylemcd ahh right
17:18 caitlin___ but i'd sort of rather get the survey out sooner and not be pending other releases
17:18 caitlin___ open to suggestion though
17:18 arturo what's the easiest way to translate it? can we get access to the source for the form somehow so it's easier or does google forms has some way of doing translations?
17:18 kylemcd arturo: i was wondering the same, i’m not sure if google has that ability
17:19 caitlin___ yeah i can share the original form-maker document with whoever wants to edit / translate
17:19 arturo i think it's ok to not wait for ofBook it's still going to be a while i think
17:19 kylemcd easiest might be to make a duplicate and open it to editing from someone specific
17:19 kylemcd great
17:19 kylemcd and yeah maybe just a “have you heard of ofSketch or used it?” sort of question
17:19 kylemcd with a link
17:19 kylemcd then we can start promoting it on the main site and see how awareness builds :)
17:20 caitlin___ yeah that works
17:21 kylemcd and my thought about whether to include raspberry pi is to change “What operating systems do you use?”
17:21 caitlin___ ok thanks everyone - also feel free to email / ping me if anyone is looking it over later and has suggestions
17:21 kylemcd to “How do you deploy OF applications?"
17:21 arturo caitlin can you make some copies of the form and ask in the dev list who can translate them?
17:21 kylemcd and then include android, iOS, and RPi
17:21 caitlin___ @kylemcd that kind of makes sense, but i think the terminology would be bad for beginner users
17:22 kylemcd or instead of “deploy”, something like “what platforms do you work with?"
17:22 caitlin___ yeah that's better
17:22 kylemcd cool
17:22 kylemcd great. next!
17:22 kylemcd 0.9.0
17:22 caitlin___ @arturo sure, i'll post a copy to the list for translators
17:23 arturo perfect
17:23 kylemcd from the deadline we picked a couple months ago, we have one month left to finish 0.9.0
17:23 kylemcd but at the rate we’re closing issues now it looks more like 8 months
17:23 ofTheo I'm not too worried :)
17:23 kylemcd so we need to do one of the following three things:
17:23 arturo i think it's fine, the most prioritary is to finish compiling the libraries
17:23 kylemcd 1. have a bug drive
17:23 arturo 64bits and c++11
17:23 kylemcd 2. reschedule the deadline
17:23 kylemcd 3. change the issues we’re tackling for 0.9.0
17:24 admsyn imo an apothecary-focused bug drive would be great
17:24 kylemcd that’s kind of a clinical analysis :) but probably some combination of these things needs to happen
17:24 arturo i'll merge the PRs soon, and we can have a bug drive, anything that is not fixed after that can be pushed back till next version
17:24 ofTheo I think a big push
17:24 ofTheo :)
17:25 ofTheo stuff can happen quickly when it gets down to the wire
17:25 arturo how are we doing with porting to 64bits?
17:25 ofTheo I think its pretty good
17:25 arturo i think almost all libraries have working formulas right?
17:25 ofTheo OS X and iOS is going great
17:25 ofTheo Windows is where it is lacking most
17:25 arturo ok i think we can leave windows for another version probably
17:26 arturo unless someone wants to tackle it before 0.9
17:26 ofTheo well - it could be that we don't do it with formulas
17:26 arturo yeah even with that is a pain :)
17:26 arturo we still need to compile everything for 32bits in windows
17:26 arturo since we've updated a lot of libraries
17:26 ofTheo right
17:27 arturo what about c++11? is that ready in osx?
17:27 ofTheo I think it could happen quickly
17:27 ofTheo I am happy to do some windows stuff
17:27 arturo ok great
17:27 ofTheo we could also rope in some of the Window people
17:27 ofTheo :)
17:28 ofTheo But Baker has been doing a bunch on Windows too - so its not too bad
17:28 arturo i don't think they are going to help but if you want to try :)
17:28 kylemcd re “stuff can happen quickly”: yes, but waiting until deadlines is not sustainable. it tires people out and shows that we can’t manage expectations and plan as a community. so let’s figure out what to cut, what to push, and plan together instead :)
17:28 ofTheo I understand that view
17:28 ofTheo but there is a lot that can happen as things get closer
17:29 arturo let's do first 32bits libraries for windows
17:29 ofTheo a lot of the PRs and issues are apothecary
17:29 kylemcd yeah, the way things are connected definitely means a lot gets knocked down quickly near the end
17:29 ofTheo and can be merged in fairly easy
17:29 arturo and then if 64bits is ready before the deadline we merge it
17:29 ofTheo that sounds good to me
17:29 arturo yeah the PR's are almost done
17:29 ofTheo 64bit can be on a per platform basis to start with ( based on whats done )
17:30 arturo there's a couple of then that need some merging but most of them can be closed easily
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17:31 arturo what's the plan with binaries for osx for 0.9? are we going to remove them and only have apothecary
17:31 ofTheo In some ways it would be good to merge sooner rather than later
17:31 arturo or still have them for this version?
17:31 ofTheo I think we could move quicker if we had more of the new stuff in master
17:31 arturo yes sure, i'll take a look at the rest of the PR's this week
17:31 ofTheo I think keep them for this version
17:31 arturo ok perfect
17:31 ofTheo we're not really fully robust yet with apothecary
17:32 ofTheo but after 0.9 - could be good then
17:32 kylemcd also, regarding the binaries: recently i’ve been using bittorrent sync a lot for keeping files synced between computers
17:32 arturo so it would be good to start pushing the compiled libraries already so they are well tested
17:32 kylemcd it’s basically dropbox without the centralized server
17:32 arturo yeah works great
17:32 kylemcd i was thinking it could be cool to have our binaries folder on a server somewhere as backup
17:32 ofTheo yes!
17:32 kylemcd and everyone syncs to there
17:33 kylemcd only a few people have read/write, but anyone can read
17:33 ofTheo the idea is that the binaries still come in the release though right?
17:33 kylemcd yes
17:33 kylemcd this is for development
17:33 ofTheo cool cool
17:33 ofTheo great
17:33 kylemcd and for breaking binaries out of git
17:33 ofTheo haha
17:33 kylemcd arturo, thoughts?
17:33 ofTheo yeah
17:33 arturo yes the release will always have the binaries
17:33 ofTheo we're on the verge of breaking github :)
17:34 admsyn haha
17:34 arturo i think we should upload them to git by now, we can look later or simultaneously on other solutions but it's going to be a big change
17:34 arturo i think for 0.9 we should keep it as it is and start to look into moving them out of the repo
17:35 arturo but haven't really used apothecary so not sure how stable it is...
17:35 kylemcd yeah, i agree arturo — i just wanted to suggest this as a good direction to head towards
17:35 arturo perhaps it's doable for 0.9
17:35 ofTheo apothecary is amazing - have to say!
17:35 admsyn I know submodules kinda suck, but could that be a quick fix for keeping the binaries out of the repo while in transition?
17:35 arturo oh yeah sounds great
17:35 ofTheo oh god - I have such a hard time with submodules
17:35 admsyn yeah for us
17:35 admsyn *sure
17:35 kylemcd i don’t think submodules are right for this
17:35 ofTheo I always trip over them
17:36 arturo it might actually be a solution
17:36 kylemcd anything that keeps history is not good for the binaries
17:36 arturo temporarily
17:36 admsyn yeah but if we're talking about adding another set of 32bit + 64bit libs for multiple platforms..
17:36 arturo we keep the same structure so the scripts still work
17:36 arturo but we don't add more crap to the original repo
17:36 admsyn fighting a submodule for a few months while bittorent sync etc gets figured out is worth it
17:36 kylemcd i would lean towards a secondary zip file as an interim solution rather than git submodules
17:36 ofTheo I understand totally -
17:37 ofTheo I am just a submodule klutz
17:37 kylemcd but anything that gets them out of the repo is good
17:37 ofTheo but it does seem a shame to add a ton of new binaries right before removing binaries
17:37 admsyn ^
17:37 arturo the problem with a zip file is that it's really hard to mantain
17:37 kylemcd yeah exactly it will be a pain
17:38 kylemcd which is great, we shouldn’t have it for long
17:38 kylemcd we won’t get too comfy
17:38 ofTheo if we moved openFrameworks out of libs/
17:38 admsyn at least for the most part we're talking about a sumbodule you init / update *once* and can basically forget about
17:38 ofTheo we could have a libs submodule
17:39 ofTheo which is all the 3rd party stuff
17:39 arturo yes
17:39 arturo yeah actually moving openFrameworks out of libs would be great
17:39 arturo openFrameworks/src
17:39 arturo makes much more sense
17:39 admsyn +1 openFrameworks/src
17:39 nongio this makes sense
17:39 nongio +1
17:39 arturo also libs/openFrameworksCompiled to openFrameworks/projects
17:39 arturo or something like that
17:40 arturo we could even move the library makefile to the root :)
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17:40 ofTheo I would be down for something like that
17:40 arturo sounds good to me, i can give a try and send a PR
17:41 arturo main problem is that PR's will broke
17:41 ofTheo oh yeah
17:41 arturo and merging will be really bad i think, i can check how bad it breaks :)
17:42 ofTheo the problem now is the apothecary PRs include the binaries and library changes
17:42 ofTheo ideally we would have all the PRs just be the formulas
17:42 arturo yeah
17:42 ofTheo then do the libraries after
17:42 arturo well if it's too complex we can leave it like it is for 0.9
17:42 ofTheo maybe we could continue to figure it out on the dev list
17:43 arturo yeah perfect
17:43 ofTheo but overall that all sounds really good
17:43 kylemcd ok, i want to propose something to help us plan this
17:43 kylemcd i just added to headings to the agenda: “0.9.0 claimed responsibilities” and “0.9.0 unclaimed responsibilities”
17:44 kylemcd if there’s something you want to work on, put it under “claimed” and if there’s something we need to do but you can’t do it yourself, put it under “unclaimed"
17:46 admsyn RE: update examples, would it be blasphemous to suggest we cull a few? Or at least shuffle them over to something like a legacy folder?
17:46 kylemcd admsyn — anything that is better explained by another example, that’s reasonable
17:46 kylemcd or anything that confuses more than it helps
17:46 kylemcd also, under these “reposnsibilities” lets keep it more to general things. anything specific is already handled by assigning issues on github.
17:47 ofTheo maybe we could start a Github issue listing ones which need updating or marking for legacy?
17:47 admsyn sure, it's been a bit since I've looked but IIRC last time while testing the examples there were a few that I was like "I really hope no-one's using this as a base for their first project..."
17:47 kylemcd like, theo, with the example updating — is there a corresponding issue for that?
17:47 kylemcd i don’t see it here https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+milestone%3A0.9.0+is%3Apr+no%3Aassignee+is%3Aissue
17:48 kylemcd whoops here https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues?q=is%3Aopen+milestone%3A0.9.0+no%3Aassignee+is%3Aissue
17:49 workergnome joined #openframeworks
17:49 kylemcd hey workergnome! :)
17:49 workergnome Howdy!
17:49 workergnome Catching up
17:50 kylemcd ofTheo i’m having trouble finding a corresponding issue for the examples — could you add one, and assign it 0.9.1?
17:51 ofTheo it could be 0.9.0 - only as a good way to have people go through and test for regressions
17:51 ofTheo I find that the examples often catch a lot of new bugs
17:52 ofTheo I'll post an issue
17:52 kylemcd i would love to have it in 0.9.0 but i think it’s better to stick of our rule of not adding new issues to a milestone once it’s current
17:53 kylemcd nothing stopping anyone from fixing it in the meantime — again, just about managing expectations
17:53 kylemcd & thanks for the issue :)
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17:54 ofTheo I didn't know that was a rule
17:54 ofTheo I generally will add something to the current milestone if its critical or a regression
17:55 kylemcd yeah, that’s the guideline — i don’t think it’s written down
17:55 kylemcd more of something we discussed a few times and have sticking with
17:55 ofTheo in this case - its going to be useful for testing the API and useful for the RC process
17:55 ofTheo so shouldn't slow us down
17:55 kylemcd but yes, no new issues to a milestone unless critical or regressions
17:55 ofTheo right right
17:55 ofTheo I'll assign myself :)
17:56 kylemcd great
17:56 kylemcd so speaking of assigning
17:57 kylemcd i think only ofTheo and arturo are in the “claimed responsibilities” section atm
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17:57 kylemcd but i wanted to ask — for what you have, you think one month is reasonable?
17:57 kylemcd i mean, is that the deadline you’d set for yourself?
17:57 ofTheo yes!! :)
17:57 ofTheo I personally enjoy the deadline
17:58 ofTheo and can devote some time to getting through the issues
17:58 kylemcd great.
17:58 ofTheo ideally we could do a 'push week' and find time to get a bunch of people to be super active at the same time
17:58 ofTheo but I think its all doable
17:58 kylemcd oh btw theo, the deadline for you is october 28.
17:59 ofTheo for RCs? :)
17:59 kylemcd hah hah jk
17:59 ofTheo ahh okay :)
17:59 kylemcd hoping if i give you more deadlines you feel more motivated! ;)
17:59 admsyn haha
17:59 ofTheo totally!
17:59 kylemcd good to know
17:59 ofTheo I used to love the sprints
17:59 kylemcd and adamsyn you’re good with big sound PR?
18:00 admsyn yeah I think it's just a ton of little things have changed since then
18:00 kylemcd it looks great, v exciting
18:00 kylemcd https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/2626/files
18:00 admsyn I'm hoping it'll be a lot of fun once it gets out into the addoniverse
18:01 arturo i was planing to merge it this week but if you want to give it a try admsyn?
18:02 admsyn sure, the rest of my time this weekend is canadian thanksgiving things but after that I should have the evening or two it'll take to pull it together :)
18:02 admsyn so, like, thursday or so
18:02 kylemcd awesome
18:02 kylemcd the more we can get things distributed the better :) also glad to have you working on your specialty!
18:03 ofTheo btw the example review issue - for reference: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/3301
18:03 admsyn finally right :) though tbh I did mostly git custodial stuff and roy / damian / mazbox did a ton of the sound work
18:03 admsyn and arturo of course
18:03 kylemcd thanks theo
18:04 ofTheo np!
18:04 ofTheo also super excited for the sound PR!
18:05 kylemcd ok, the next meetup is going to be on november 2 so we’ll be 10 days from RC which means we can regroup at that point to figure out if we’re really going to make it or need to change the deadline
18:05 ofTheo can't wait!! :)
18:05 kylemcd i’ll send a note to of-dev after the meeting asking people what they think
18:05 ofTheo I'll miss the next one unfortunately
18:05 kylemcd there ight be someone who needs it pushed back, but i’m hopefuly
18:05 kylemcd hopeful
18:05 ofTheo but I should have all my issues closed by then ;)
18:05 kylemcd lol
18:05 kylemcd ok, next!
18:05 kylemcd AVF status
18:06 kylemcd kind of related to 0.9.0
18:06 qDot_ Oh. Hey.
18:06 kylemcd hey qDot_!
18:06 kylemcd elie can’t be here but he wanted to leave a few notes about this, i added them to the agenda
18:07 kylemcd basically, the avf player is merged, we still want to get iOS/OSX code base synced, and we need an avf grabber
18:07 kylemcd the iOS/OSX sync is scheduled for 0.9.0 but it seems like it could be some work, and julapy is doing a lot of other things too
18:07 ofTheo I wonder if the iOS one could just be ported over?
18:08 ofTheo I am going to take a look at it
18:08 ofTheo I think the grabber won't be too hard
18:08 ofTheo and OS X and iOS could be separate for 0.9
18:08 kylemcd i would look at the grabber before worrying about syncing the ios/osc code
18:08 ofTheo if its hard
18:08 kylemcd yeah i agree
18:08 ofTheo yeah
18:08 kylemcd i’m going to push that issue back for now
18:10 kylemcd any other avf thoughts?
18:11 ofTheo hmm
18:11 ofTheo only updating the Xcode templates
18:11 admsyn ?
18:11 ofTheo not sure if they have been updated with all the needed frameworks yet
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18:11 ofTheo saw a bunch of posts relating to that - but maybe its fixed alread?
18:12 ofTheo small stuff - never mind :)
18:12 caitlin___ i think that's fixed now
18:12 admsyn there was one recently that was showing the makefile situation on osx is still al ittle janky
18:12 ofTheo ok - great :)
18:12 admsyn wrt frameworks
18:12 ofTheo Are there any 10.10 issues we should be aware of?
18:13 ofTheo ( thats coming out very soon )
18:13 kylemcd i know jonas jongejan has been doing 10.10 for some time without any big issues
18:13 ofTheo oh awesome!
18:13 ofTheo was worried there dropped 32bit or something like that :)
18:14 admsyn there's a thing where Xcode tries to automatically update your project to the "recommended settings"
18:14 admsyn which now means 64 bit
18:14 admsyn which throws ugly scary errors
18:14 kylemcd oh interesting!
18:14 kylemcd then you have to switch it back?
18:14 admsyn I haven't gone all clinical on it but I think it's the case
18:14 admsyn yeah you have to specify
18:14 ofTheo yeah I have noticed some things with Xcode 6
18:14 admsyn but it's weird because the scheme still says 32bit, which is a lie
18:14 ofTheo where it really wants C++11 and 64bit
18:15 admsyn forum.openframeworks.cc/t/fix-for-undefined-symbols-when-building-in-xcode-6/
18:15 ofTheo so the sooner we can get there the better
18:15 kylemcd wow great to know
18:15 kylemcd definitely a fire under our butts for 64 bit and c++11
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18:17 admsyn related: I've put up like 3 or 4 posts on the forums that are "hey, here's a weird error you might get sometimes, this is what it means" with the idea that they're googleable
18:17 kylemcd admsyn i just noticed that this was formatted that way :)
18:17 kylemcd it seems like a great approach
18:17 ofTheo thx! thats super helpful!
18:17 ofTheo would have saved me a bunch of time :)
18:17 admsyn and they get a fair amount of traffic, so, I think that's a pretty decent way of working around "oh shit" IDE problems that come out of nowhere
18:18 admsyn like as a quick fix
18:18 admsyn because you know everyone's just like "undefined symbol" openframeworks on google :)
18:18 kylemcd it would be interesting to look through more of what people are searching for when they come to the OF site
18:18 caitlin___ @admsyn yeah definitely did that with a student and landed on your fix page :)
18:18 admsyn :)
18:19 kylemcd theo you added me to google analytics for OF a while ago, but i think either it’s inactive or something is wrong with the way its configured
18:19 ofTheo ahh - going to check
18:20 kylemcd cause i see like 1 visitor over the last month
18:20 admsyn oh that was probably me /joke
18:20 kylemcd loool
18:21 ofTheo I see 1 user too haha
18:21 kylemcd yeah
18:21 ofTheo I wonder if the tracker got removed from the ofSite repo somehow
18:21 kylemcd on dreamhost panel there’s a setting to use google analytics without pasting javascript into every page
18:22 kylemcd which should be more robust than trying to get ofSite to work correctly
18:22 ofTheo well we're not on dream host through :(
18:22 kylemcd ah no worries
18:23 ofTheo yeah the code is not on the site
18:23 kylemcd oh here we go
18:23 ofTheo going to add it back in
18:23 kylemcd but i see UA-9614675-1 on the main page
18:23 kylemcd the one you and i are watching is UA-43083059-1
18:23 admsyn github has pretty neat traffic analytics now too btw
18:23 ofTheo yeah - I'll change it - weird :)
18:24 kylemcd don’t change it — let’s just figure out who owns UA-9614675-1 :)
18:24 kylemcd cause that’s already spread all over the site
18:24 kylemcd we can keep statistics continuous
18:24 ofTheo yeah thats for Google Webmaster
18:24 kylemcd we should add it to the forum though
18:24 ofTheo different thing
18:24 admsyn for instance the iOS orientation issue gets about 5x as many views as anything else on our repo
18:24 kylemcd oh so it just wasn’t being tracked…? :(
18:25 admsyn other than the main page
18:25 kylemcd admsyn wow
18:25 kylemcd definitely a sign
18:26 admsyn like ~5x as many views just the issues tab :)
18:26 admsyn that SEO
18:26 kylemcd admsyn how do you get the issues views?
18:26 kylemcd i feel like i’ve seen that data before
18:27 admsyn it's just under "popular content" in the traffic graph
18:27 kylemcd ah there it is thank you
18:27 admsyn I think it's restricted to people with whatever access I have and up
18:27 bill_automata joined #openframeworks
18:29 admsyn haha kylemcd RE: the issue traffic comment
18:30 kylemcd ok great, that kind of diverged
18:30 kylemcd but good outcome, thanks for fixing the site theo
18:30 kylemcd next! two things left, almost done
18:30 kylemcd ofSketch workshop went well at INST-INT!
18:30 admsyn nice
18:30 kylemcd caitlin__ did you have a chance to go? or anyone else?
18:30 kylemcd i had to leave early :(
18:31 workergnome `I was there.
18:31 caitlin___ yeah it was good!
18:31 workergnome Lots of interest, particularly from educators.
18:31 ofTheo np!! :)
18:31 caitlin___ hmm chris and brannon aren't here it looks like
18:31 kylemcd oh but i did meet kayla and brannon, they’re both awesome people
18:32 workergnome Interestingly, I’d say 50% of the people there didn’t know OP at all.
18:32 kylemcd chris is really creating a great atmosphere at SAIC i think and people are having a good time
18:32 caitlin___ but yeah, +1 to what david said
18:32 workergnome OF
18:32 kylemcd wow
18:32 workergnome And were there to get a basic understanding of what it is.
18:32 kylemcd what would you say seemed like the biggest difficulty, and biggest success?
18:32 caitlin___ definitely the first OF workshop i've been to that was a majority of beginners, and actually writing OF code within the first 15 minutes
18:33 kylemcd wow that’s amazing
18:33 caitlin___ there were a few glitches in ofSketch that we discovered
18:33 caitlin___ just window launching errors mostly
18:33 caitlin___ but aside from that, i think it worked pretty well
18:33 workergnome Getting it running is really easy.  A lot of questions about what the difference between OFSketch and OpenFrameworks, a lot of questions about portablity between the two.
18:33 caitlin___ the interesting thing was that a lot of people immediately had OF-specific quetsions
18:34 caitlin___ ^ yes
18:34 kylemcd caitlin__ what kind of questions?
18:34 kylemcd oh like the kind david mentions?
18:34 caitlin___ for total beginners, it's a little confusing to describe the difference between the ofSketch way, vs the IDE way, because they have no frame of reference
18:34 admsyn like "am I learning the real thing?" ?
18:35 caitlin___ but i think that's ok -- again, it meant that most of the questions were actually about OF syntax, structure, etc
18:35 workergnome I think a lot of people are using Processing as their mental model, with the Processing IDE/Eclipse as the analogy.
18:35 caitlin___ which is unusual, to get into that level of questions so fast, so by that metric i think it was totally a success
18:36 caitlin___ @admsyn yeah a bit of that, and a lot of "but is this how i structure it for real too?"
18:36 ofTheo awesome! in a way it probably feels closer to processing.
18:36 caitlin___ yeah, no .h / .cpp, single file
18:37 workergnome I think that the most helpful thing would be a bunch of VERY simple examples.
18:37 ofTheo Xcode / vs on their own can be overwhelming
18:37 workergnome like “Draw a box”.   “Draw a circle”.
18:38 caitlin___ yes, more examples would be good, and i know that the porting functionality to standard IDEs is in the works, which was one of the big questions
18:38 admsyn ye olde gl triangle
18:38 caitlin___ ha :)
18:39 caitlin___ i've been sending it around to some of the teachers at parsons too, and i think we're going to introduce it in classes in a week or two, so hopefully we'll get more feedback then as well
18:39 kylemcd oh wow, will you be teaching at parsons soon caitlin__?
18:40 caitlin___ i'm already mid-semester :) but not introducing OF till next week
18:41 kylemcd ahhh great
18:41 kylemcd glad to hear that
18:41 kylemcd you know what would be crazy… if we didn’t have a main function
18:41 kylemcd if every app was just an OF class
18:42 ofTheo that could work
18:42 kylemcd and we used some metaprogramming to register them at compile time
18:42 ofTheo a static method to configure the window
18:42 kylemcd then we could just have one file per sketch, and have a ton of sketches
18:43 kylemcd or even have a generated main function built by a compile time script
18:43 kylemcd anyway, i think it’s interesting that cinder minimizes the main function as much as possible
18:43 arturo i kind of like that main is super explicit
18:43 ofTheo for me I am more excited for the option to do window / config stuff from inside of ofApp
18:43 workergnome If we’re persuing this idea, I think a generated main function is better, for future portablility.
18:44 ofTheo but yeah there is no reason to look at main.cpp too
18:44 arturo every time i try to use any framework where they do this kin of things with hiding the main function it gets super difficult to integrate with other libraries
18:44 ofTheo yeah - one upside is you get used to how it works in more other C++ projects.
18:45 kylemcd arturo that’s a great point
18:45 ofTheo but if the current main function could be one line that would be pretty cooll
18:45 ofTheo *cool
18:45 kylemcd for the last couple years the only thing that has moved me from PDE to OF for small sketches is that i’m writing things like this
18:45 kylemcd https://gist.github.com/kylemcdonald/6878847
18:45 admsyn fwiw w/ Cocoa Xcode tucks the main.mm away in a side folder and turns main() into a one-liner, definitely a precedent for that sort of thing
18:45 ofTheo and the window AA / settings etc could happen at the top of ofApp.cpp
18:46 ofTheo ha nice
18:46 admsyn yeah I've been doing the exact same thing recently kylemcd
18:46 nongio I think that the main.cpp change makes sense only for ofSketch
18:46 kylemcd nongio interesting
18:46 ofTheo I have to head out now - but hope you all have a good rest of the day! thanks everyone!!
18:46 nongio I personally use a lot of main customizations… like changing the renderer get arguments atc…
18:47 kylemcd bye ofTheo
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18:47 kylemcd nongio good point — some of those things are actually difficult or impossible to do later without recreating the window
18:48 kylemcd anyway — i guess my general point is that we should keep considering ways to minimize the number of files and amount of code we use, to conceptually simplify things so there is better IDE/ofSketch parity and teaching and learning is easier
18:48 workergnome Just checked—ofSketch DOES hide the main function.
18:49 kylemcd interesting — it makes a lot of sense in that case
18:49 workergnome void setup() {
18:49 workergnome // put your setup code here, to run once:
18:49 caitlin___ yeah i think it works there
18:49 workergnome
18:49 workergnome }
18:49 workergnome void draw() {
18:49 workergnome // put your main code here, to run once each frame:
18:49 workergnome
18:49 workergnome }
18:49 workergnome I agree.
18:49 kylemcd ok, let’s keep it in mind :)
18:49 kylemcd i want to move on to the last topic before we loose anyone else
18:49 kylemcd if that’s ok?
18:50 kylemcd lose
18:50 workergnome yup
18:50 kylemcd next & last:
18:50 kylemcd could we add an OF code of conduct, or official stance on diversity?
18:50 workergnome What is “OF”?
18:51 admsyn openframeworks
18:51 kylemcd hah hah
18:51 caitlin___ i'm (finally) boarding a plane in about a minute, but my basic thought is that we could add more into the "Do it with others (DIWO)" existing section in "about"
18:51 kylemcd no i get it
18:51 kylemcd good question
18:51 kylemcd thanks caitlin__ i think that’s a good place
18:51 workergnome I think that would be very helpful for the forum/ofDev list, etc.
18:51 kylemcd by “OF” here i mean “when you’re interacting with the OF community, as a community member"
18:52 caitlin___ and oh change "If you are not a part of the group, welcome!" to "not YET" :)
18:52 kylemcd great point! :)
18:52 caitlin___ also i didnt know that DIWO bit was there till i just hunted for something in "about"
18:52 caitlin___ maybe make it more visible?
18:52 caitlin___ gotta board, bye all :)
18:52 kylemcd have a good flight!
18:52 workergnome later!
18:52 admsyn bye caitlin_!
18:53 billautomata joined #openframeworks
18:53 kylemcd i added this point, just because i keep seeing things blow up with different online communities due to discrimination based on gender, class, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc
18:53 workergnome Is there a standard diversity disclaimer at this point?
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18:54 kylemcd and OF has always been very inviting, but i want to make sure it’s clear where we stand
18:54 workergnome I mean, can we use someone else’s work on this?
18:54 kylemcd yes so i put a few links below the point
18:54 kylemcd couchdb has a pretty good one they spend some time on. it’s very oss-oriented
18:54 kylemcd the dreamwidth one is really fun, but it’s more of a community for creative exploration
18:54 kylemcd the python one works, but it’s completely uninspiring
18:55 kylemcd i think we fall somewhere between couchdb and dreamwidth
18:55 kylemcd my goal is for people who might otherwise feel worried about being part of an OSS community would feel comfortable joining OF
18:55 kylemcd and that we have something we can refer to when things feel off or a little wrong with how someone is acting
18:55 arturo sounds good to me
18:56 workergnome I like the CouchDB one a good bit.
18:56 admsyn I've had the python one recommended to me a few times fwiw, but yeah it does sound pretty dry
18:56 arturo one thing that i noticed some days ago doing some changes on the web is that we are beginning to have tons of text
18:56 arturo nobody is going to read all of that
18:56 kylemcd arturo, i agree
18:56 arturo perhaps we should check if there's some parts of it that can be removed
18:56 arturo or made shorter
18:56 kylemcd we need to do an overhaul of all our written content
18:57 arturo there's things that are really old too
18:57 arturo yeah
18:57 workergnome I can volunteer to do an inventory of that.
18:57 kylemcd workergnome omg
18:57 kylemcd yes please
18:57 arturo but yes in general i think anything that might make the community more inviting or help making it more diverse is good
18:57 nongio workergnome github issue?
18:58 kylemcd workergnome if you also want to work with caitlin on this, she has been involved with ofSite in the past and could have insight
18:58 workergnome Can do.  openframeworks github of ofsite?
18:58 lmccart it might be nice to invite someone that is more on the fringes to be involved with this also
18:58 arturo ofsite
18:58 kylemcd but basically, there’s ofSite and https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/wiki has some semi-overlapping notes
18:58 lmccart like maybe there is a student, or someone that has been around but hasn't found a clear way to get involved yet
18:59 kylemcd lmccart great suggestion
18:59 workergnome wiki is broken, BTW.
18:59 workergnome the OLD wiki
18:59 kylemcd lol whoops!
18:59 workergnome http://wiki.openframeworks.cc/index.php?title=Education
19:00 kylemcd didn’t make it in the migration i guess :(
19:00 workergnome Looks like an upgrade problem.  Who should I bug about that?
19:00 kylemcd workergnome if you can add an issue to ofSite that would be the best place
19:00 arturo i think we lost it in dreamhost
19:00 kylemcd both for the wiki, and for the text overhaul
19:00 arturo is there still any link to the wiki?
19:00 workergnome working on it.
19:00 arturo i've seen some people asking
19:00 kylemcd arturo — “lost” as in there are no backups?
19:01 arturo but i thought there were no links left
19:01 kylemcd arturo there’s a link on the front page :)
19:01 arturo not sure, theo has access to that server
19:01 kylemcd ah ok
19:01 arturo oh i see
19:01 arturo :)
19:01 arturo i guess if he hasn't deleted it yet it should be there
19:02 arturo surely the db is still there
19:02 kylemcd ok great
19:02 kylemcd (personally i think we should archive it somehow but make it clear it’s not active anymore)
19:02 kylemcd for now maybe just remove the link on the main page, or point to the github wiki instead
19:02 workergnome I was thinking of posting anything still relevant to the forums.
19:03 kylemcd yes, definitely
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19:04 kylemcd workergnome do you have someone in mind to look at the text w you? maybe take a first pass yourself and we can ask golan, chris baker, or ask around at itp for someone to take a second look?
19:05 workergnome If can find someone, that would be great—I don’t have anyone in mind.
19:06 workergnome I can send out some emails to people I know, as well.
19:06 kylemcd ok great
19:07 kylemcd regarding the original point about conduct/diversity, two things:
19:07 kylemcd 1. let’s bring the “design philosophy” further up, maybe to the top of the page — especially DIWO part
19:08 kylemcd 2. let’s fill out the DIWO section with a more explicit statement about what we’re aiming for, along the lines of the other links i posted
19:08 workergnome Want me to make ofSite issues for those two things?
19:08 kylemcd yes please :)
19:09 kylemcd it doesn’t have to be long or hyper-serious, shouldn’t be seen as a warning — but it should be clear, and look more like an invitation
19:10 billautomata joined #openframeworks
19:10 kylemcd again, i think we’re doing ok in terms of the way we treat people who are underrepresented in the OF community — but if you look at who is part of the OF community, it’s still very homogenous
19:10 arturo perhaps we can add something about DIWO in the subtitle of that page and link from there to the longer explanation
19:10 kylemcd there’s still a lot of work to do
19:11 kylemcd arturo — also a great idea
19:13 kylemcd actually, the couchdb project in general i think is a great model
19:13 arturo also perhaps something that could help with diversity is translating stuff into other languages
19:13 kylemcd http://couchdb.apache.org/
19:13 kylemcd arturo : yes
19:13 kylemcd i have a personal list of things that need to happen with OF, actually :)
19:14 nongio for sure chinese is needed
19:14 kylemcd and it has two that are coupled: website redesign & multilingual website
19:15 kylemcd nongio do you know some chinese OF hackers?
19:15 nongio actually not
19:15 arturo the guys that are doing the design for ofBook have been doing a great work, perhaps we can ask them if they want to help redesigning the web
19:15 nongio i have been recently in china and i have seen the lack of english knowing..
19:15 arturo i could look into multilingual support
19:16 kylemcd arturo i think it goes hand-in-hand with a website redesign
19:16 kylemcd and also with what workergnome has gotten started on
19:16 workergnome I’ve done some work with multi-lingual sites before, back in the corporate world.
19:16 arturo yeah me too and is usually really painful :)
19:16 kylemcd personally, i think blogofile helped us get to a good place, and it’s great for documentation, but the rest of the site might be better served by another framework
19:16 kylemcd workergnome what did you use?
19:17 workergnome Rails for one, Ember for another.
19:17 arturo i've been looking into other alternatives and i think the easiest would be to do our own thing using jinja templates so we can reuse the python code we already have
19:17 workergnome But there are some standard text formats.
19:18 arturo + bootstrap for the design
19:18 nongio kylemcd have you seen this recent post on the forum? http://forum.openframeworks.cc/t/wish-to-meet-you-in-london-creative-coding-community/17284
19:18 nongio he is from beijing
19:18 kylemcd i didn’t see this, looks great
19:18 workergnome The complicated thing will be maintaining the collaborative/open-edit structure with multi-linguality.
19:19 workergnome Usually that requires a string-level CMS.
19:19 kylemcd workergnome how deep into this do you want to get?
19:19 kylemcd it might be good to have a video chat
19:19 arturo my idea is to use the file system to organize it
19:19 arturo something like
19:19 arturo tutorials
19:19 arturo |_en
19:19 arturo |_es
19:19 arturo ...
19:20 arturo have the templates in the root + texts in markdown in every folder
19:20 arturo and just use raw python so there's as less dependencies as possible and we can resue the current code
19:20 workergnome The issue you tend to run into is that that means that you can’t usually have ANY text in the templates.
19:20 arturo yes that's fine i think
19:21 arturo for things like headers... we can have multiple versions
19:21 workergnome Let me see if I still have my notes from when I tried to pull this together for American Eagle Outfitters.
19:22 kylemcd you know how it’s easier to edit documentation when it’s in the source code
19:22 workergnome Yup
19:22 kylemcd maybe it’s also easier to maintain translations when there are multiple languages in one file?
19:22 kylemcd that way it’s clear what is reverting to english, and what is overridden with the localized text?
19:22 workergnome Maybe—the issue is that if you change anything, you have to change it for every language, or invalidate it.
19:23 kylemcd right, i see
19:23 kylemcd so if you add a link or something
19:23 arturo i don't think so, that would be a mess to merge... also most content rarely changes, i think we just need to have something were when we change versions for exampel every language updates automatically
19:23 arturo everything else would be even mantained by each comunity
19:24 workergnome In my experience, you tend to build the site with constants for the text, and then have a single file for the text content per-language.
19:24 lmccart joined #openframeworks
19:24 arturo like right now the japanaese web page probably have their own announcements..
19:24 workergnome And if you change something, you change the constant, and it bubbles down to the default language.
19:24 arturo we don't need an exact translation just something were the most dinamic parts are easy to update from once place
19:24 kylemcd arturo — localized information is different than localized text i think
19:24 arturo yes that's what i mean
19:24 kylemcd oh ok
19:24 workergnome AH
19:25 workergnome That’s a much easier problem.
19:25 arturo we have a couple of places where we need something like the traditional multi language site
19:25 arturo with string fields, keys...
19:25 arturo but that's only for the downloads
19:25 kylemcd like main page, about section, downloads, etc
19:25 arturo and a couple other places
19:25 arturo yeah
19:26 arturo but things like announcements... can be mantained separately by each language mantainer
19:26 arturo and be more local to each community
19:26 kylemcd workergnome do you want to spearhead this? you’ve already contributed a bunch to other parts of ofSite
19:27 workergnome OK.  First step is still the text inventory—that’ll give us a better idea of what the scope of we’re looking at.  I’ll add a basic look at translatability as part of that.
19:27 workergnome Sure.
19:27 kylemcd awesome.
19:27 workergnome Arturo—can you write down what you were thinking about?
19:27 workergnome Either on the github issue, or just in an email to me?
19:28 kylemcd ahh also there is this thread
19:28 kylemcd http://cl.ly/image/3t1U0p3R2V2o
19:28 arturo sure
19:28 kylemcd motoi shimizu prepared this a while ago
19:28 kylemcd the thread died but i’ll resurrect it right now and make sure everyone knows you’re in charge workergnome ;)
19:29 workergnome what thread is this?
19:29 arturo i was thinking something like that but the other way around where language folders are inside each section
19:29 kylemcd this was a private thread between me, TAZ, tadokoro + motoi shimizu (of.jp), kim jung un (of.kr)
19:29 workergnome Gotcha
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19:31 workergnome Bah.  I thought I had escaped dealing with text encodings. :-)
19:31 kylemcd hah hah
19:33 admsyn real quick thing RE: the earlier discussion about ofSketch, main.cpp, communities etc
19:33 admsyn I lost myself in the loadingicon subreddit for a few hours last night, it's an interesting look at a community forming around Processing
19:34 admsyn there's a bunch of people that post sort of loopy gif content (like the bees & bombs guy) and people try to come to grips with what processing is in the comments
19:34 admsyn so http://www.reddit.com/r/loadingicon/top/
19:34 admsyn e.g. v
19:34 admsyn *http://www.reddit.com/r/loadingicon/comments/2d9exs/twisting_circle_oc/cjno7xe?context=4
19:34 kylemcd_ joined #openframeworks
19:34 admsyn just  thought it was a neat look at people getting started from scratch
19:35 nongio does ofSketch handles gists?
19:36 admsyn nongio: https://github.com/olab-io/ofSketch/issues/60
19:36 admsyn not yet, no
19:37 nongio would be cool
19:37 kylemcd wow http://i.imgur.com/hVrvLMS.mp4
19:38 kylemcd ok last note
19:38 kylemcd workergnome: to be clear, if you want to own translation & text, you have complete freedom wrt frameworks, structure, etc — there’s definitely a lot of ideas from arturo, motoi, etc that are well thought-through but in the end we trust you :)
19:38 kylemcd i think OF is good when we trust each other, and listen to each other
19:38 kylemcd (also, personal disclaimer: i just worked with workergnome for a month in pittsburgh and he’s absolutely awesome)
19:39 admsyn haha
19:39 workergnome The more input the better.
19:40 kylemcd long meeting — but anything else?
19:40 arturo something that i would ask is that we use python since we have lots of code mostly for the docs
19:40 arturo already in python
19:40 arturo but anyway i'll mail you later david
19:41 workergnome ok.
19:41 workergnome I’ll look for your email
19:41 kylemcd alright!
19:41 kylemcd great meeting everyone :) thanks for sticking around!
19:42 nongio :)
19:42 nongio arturo how is gone your workshop in berlin?
19:42 qDot_ \o/
19:42 arturo was really good :)
19:43 kylemcd _\\m//
19:43 nongio good! I was hoping to be there but got to work…
19:45 nongio arturo just one thing…
19:45 nongio about this issue: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/3139
19:45 nongio does this pr makes sense to you? https://github.com/nongio/openFrameworks/commit/1e4fe4c8cfb72176c23c4944227a1db9dc7fb41e
19:45 admsyn bye all!
19:46 nongio bye
19:50 arturo nongio, never understood how that variable in 3d primitives works :)
19:50 arturo perhaps send a PR and ping nick hardeman
19:50 arturo he did that
19:51 arturo we should change it for something more understandable though is super criptic
19:51 nongio ok thanks :)
19:53 arturo but yeah if it fixes it that's probably the problem, just to make sure that it won't break somewhere else
19:54 nongio just pinged nick
19:54 arturo perfect!
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23:33 Topic for #openframeworks is now Welcome :) Site: http://openframeworks.cc/ Logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/ Oct 12 meetup notes https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-October-12-2014
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23:46 Topic for #openframeworks is now Welcome :) Site: http://openframeworks.cc/ Logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/ Oct 12 meetup notes https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-October-12-2014

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