Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #openframeworks, 2015-05-03

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Time Nick Message
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01:22 mhellar A little off topic, but what is the cheapest/good pocket projector for using with a RPI with OF for projection mapping? I'm tryning to build the ultimate mini unit!
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01:48 Topic for #openframeworks is now Welcome :) Site: http://openframeworks.cc/ Logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/ Agenda: https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-March-8-2015
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16:55 bilderbuchi heyho
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17:01 bilderbuchi hi
17:01 zachlieberman hey hey
17:02 futurestack ahoy
17:02 admsyn hi all
17:02 workergnome Howdy
17:02 groolot_FR_UTC2 hello
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17:02 mendeza hello
17:02 futurestack this is the weirdest irc conversation I've ever been a part of.
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17:03 kylemcd_ Hi everyone  :)
17:03 golan_ Hi everyone. Are we here or on the Slack?
17:03 kylemcd_ We are here
17:03 Topic for #openframeworks is now Welcome :) Site: http://openframeworks.cc/ Logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/ Agenda: https://openframeworks.hackpad.com/IRC-Meetup-May-2-2015
17:03 zachlieberman we’re here
17:03 groolot_FR_UTC2 we are the May 3, not 2 :)
17:04 groolot_FR_UTC2 maybe important for history
17:04 groolot_FR_UTC2 :s
17:04 kylemcd_ Oh wow not sure how I made that mistake
17:05 kylemcd_ Thanks :)
17:06 golan_ So, regarding ofBook -- (1) I'm finishing my chapter this week (SORRY SORRY SORRY). Also, we should bring printed copies to Eyeo, no? What's the best way to print it? (Blurb, Lulu, Espresso Book Machine?)
17:07 kylemcd_ Zach do you want to start with ofBook?
17:07 zachlieberman sure -
17:07 zachlieberman so we’re kind of waiting on Golan and Elliot to either finish their chapters or pull them for now
17:07 golan_ (Isn't ofBook the first thing on the agenda?)
17:08 zachlieberman there’s some editing happening that’s good — new folks have jumped like tlprnt who are doing a close reading
17:08 zachlieberman In general I feel like it’s good to go live at any point — and I’d like to put it up before I start another round of travel
17:08 zachlieberman there’s still work to be done, but I think integrating it into the site will be good
17:08 golan_ I have a question about my vision chapter. Should I discuss the Kinect (via the ofxKinect example)?
17:09 zachlieberman sounds good to me
17:09 golan_ ok
17:10 zachlieberman there’s still a bunch of little things, and I feel like some of the chapters need sort of QA-ing a bit, but for the most part, I think it’s good
17:10 bilderbuchi I think we can go live at any point that feels correct(ish)  - the book was planned to be iteratively improved post-release anyway
17:10 kylemcd_ Te bigger question is about printing
17:10 bilderbuchi "the perfect is the enemy of the good" and all that
17:10 zachlieberman yes def.. I was holding out for golan basically at this point — his chapter will be great
17:10 golan_ Does the book have a standard format for easy printing from PDF? (e.g. 8.5"x11" for easy printing in the USA)?
17:10 zachlieberman I think once it’s up we can look at printing — we have backed away from supporting both the web and printing scripts
17:10 bilderbuchi don't know about the current toolchain, with the previous pandoc version you could select paper format iirc
17:11 zachlieberman since it was kind of hard to just make progress, I think once it’s live, we can look at print options
17:11 golan_ Lulu offers easy printing of 8.5x11 books from PDF, like we did for DeepLab. http://studioforcreativeinquiry.org/publications/deep-lab-book
17:11 bilderbuchi btw did anything every come out of this Atlas thing you pursued for a while, zach?
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17:12 zachlieberman they wound up having a really better model then the beginning and are happy to help, I felt like maybe once we are live, we can talk to them again
17:12 zachlieberman their CTO jumped on some emails and seemed excited
17:12 bilderbuchi cool :-)
17:12 zachlieberman but I just didn’t feel like we could make a transition very easily mid project — it’s been a slow moving process
17:13 bilderbuchi agreed
17:13 golan_ Which chapter is Elliot's? If he still has to finish his chapter as well, then I'll arrange a page-for-page challenge with him.
17:13 zachlieberman C++11 and his project breakdown
17:13 zachlieberman I’d love to have more project breakdowns as well
17:13 zachlieberman Eva’s is awesome, it’s a great model
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17:14 zachlieberman I feel like we can put out a call for that and it’s a good place for folks who aren’t usually on these emails IRCs to jump in
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17:14 bilderbuchi later, later! let's not feature creep now! :-D
17:14 zachlieberman yes def !
17:14 zachlieberman I think that’s the status, let’s send productive vibes to golan
17:14 golan_ Do you plan to have an ISBN number? Lulu offers this.
17:15 futurestack I could QA / edit if you need another pair of eyes
17:15 bilderbuchi ISBN would be nice!
17:15 zachlieberman yes can you ping me off IRC ?  I think there’s just a few chapters that need some help
17:15 bilderbuchi less coffee, more packets, wherever you are kyle!
17:15 zachlieberman ISBN nice!
17:15 futurestack yeah, what style do you prefer? email, twitter?
17:15 bilderbuchi atlas also offered that iirc (no wonder, it's o'reilly after all)
17:16 futurestack I worked with you on a job ages ago but dunno if I still have your email addr
17:16 zachlieberman yeah I remember handing off mac minis on flushing ave !    zach at openframeworks.cc
17:16 futurestack cool
17:16 golan_ An ISBN costs a little money and paperwork to arrange, but Lulu.com does it as part of their print-on-demand printing package, and naturally they don't prevent you from offering your PDF for free download.
17:17 golan_ I feel like we should have some copies to give out (or sell, to recover printing costs) at Eyeo.
17:17 zachlieberman sure ! let’s discuss after getting it live....
17:17 golan_ ok
17:18 bilderbuchi maybe dan shiffman can offer advice re: best printign options?
17:18 zachlieberman iep…
17:18 golan_ he uses amazon. It's another good option.
17:18 bilderbuchi ah ic
17:18 kylemcd next?
17:19 zachlieberman next!
17:19 kylemcd nongio isn’t here, but zachlieberman any updates on the project generator
17:20 zachlieberman things have been super slow on my end…  I am looking at the current master and trying to fix some bugs there now
17:20 zachlieberman I have been working with CEF — I do feel like it will be useful for this
17:20 bilderbuchi CEF?
17:20 zachlieberman more eyeballs on that would def be helpful: https://github.com/ofZach/ofxCef
17:21 zachlieberman cef = chromium embedded framework
17:21 zachlieberman it’s not crucial but I think it’s useful for front end stuff…
17:21 kylemcd i was just at NODE in frankfurt, and the vvvv folks are also using CEF for doing things like building GUIs http://vvvv.org/blog/htmltexture-node-using-cef-3-now
17:22 zachlieberman I totally love CEF, it’s a monster
17:22 zachlieberman I think it’s kind of nice if we have a good system for this, since we can do front ends.  My dream is to use dat.gui with OF
17:23 zachlieberman anyway, I haven’t really worked much on the PG but now looking at master I can see alot of things that need love
17:23 kylemcd i’ve closed some old issues related to the current PG since it seems like all effort is going to the new PG
17:24 kylemcd hope that’s ok
17:24 bilderbuchi i would love to see the unification of the two PGs to go forward soon.
17:24 zachlieberman yes that’s fine I think, I feel like the command line tool needs a pass to get more useful, since it’s still building an OF project, which on OSX doesn’t make it a great command line thing....
17:24 kylemcd is there anything others can do to help besides looking at ofxCef?
17:25 zachlieberman if the command line tool can be done without OF it would be super helpful, ie just using poco….
17:25 zachlieberman one issue is that is in *OF* which means that for OSX, it’s an .app, it feels kind of weird and is hard to actually use as a command line tool
17:26 kylemcd ok
17:26 zachlieberman that would require rewriting alot of the path and file stuff to just use poco / c++ which is kind of an effort…
17:27 zachlieberman I’m happy if there was a group who wanted to jam on that, I just don’t have a ton of bandwidth…   getting the command line tool to be more command line -esq would be good
17:27 zachlieberman I did some work last spring on getting command line flags to work, etc.  I think more people looking at it would be good
17:29 kylemcd ok let’s keep going
17:29 kylemcd thanks :)
17:29 kylemcd next
17:29 kylemcd arturo isn’t here right now, but i was curious to hear more about what his plans were for glm
17:29 kylemcd he definitely has something specific in mind https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/3477#issuecomment-68254646
17:30 kylemcd but it’s a big change and it’d be nice to talk about it as a group too
17:30 kylemcd so maybe on the list
17:30 admsyn for sure, I'm excited for it :)
17:30 zachlieberman +1 to changing to GLM if it makes things better / easier / etc…
17:31 kylemcd moving on… next :)
17:31 kylemcd gene_ i moved you up a bit
17:31 kylemcd genekogan: idea for a "templates" project based on this repo
17:31 kylemcd https://github.com/genekogan/OF-tools
17:32 kylemcd i remember having a discussion about this a year ago, but it never really went anywhere
17:32 kylemcd this repo is super filled out though
17:32 bilderbuchi what is this? example implementations?
17:33 kylemcd somewhere between examples and addons
17:34 kylemcd hmm it seems like gene_ might be gone atm...
17:34 zachlieberman is gene here?
17:34 kylemcd let’s come back to that
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17:34 kylemcd gene_ say hi when you’re back
17:34 kylemcd hi matt!
17:34 gene_ hi
17:34 bilderbuchi hm, I added a bullet to the agenda
17:34 bilderbuchi but it's disappeared apparently
17:34 gene_ yeah i wanted to mention this, wasn't sure it was the right venue
17:34 kylemcd aha there you are
17:35 mattfelsen hello :)
17:35 kylemcd bilderbuchi could you add it again, not sure what happened
17:35 kylemcd gene: what’s up with the repo, what do you have in mind?
17:35 gene_ the repo is mainly a collection of tools that i use a lot, so a lot of it may not be relevant, but some of it is quite general
17:35 bilderbuchi hm I did it without making a hackpad account, maybe that was the reason. :P It was about the issue maintainer transition
17:35 mattfelsen Is there something up with the transcript? Wanted to catch up but it only has a couple lines from today?
17:36 gene_ could be useful as an educational resource or addons or something different
17:36 gene_ the "templates" metaphor is that some of the apps are basically 2 or more examples/addons encapsulated with a GUI
17:36 gene_ so for example
17:36 kylemcd http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/2015-05-03
17:36 gene_ the OpenNI tool handles tracking skeleton features, grabbing body contours, and so on. so it's encapsulating ofxCv, ofxOpenNI, ofxKinectProjectorToolkit, and ofxKinectFeatures, slapping on a gui and giving a user a bunch of getters
17:36 kylemcd date on the agenda is wrong, you were looking at yesterday
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17:37 gene_ a bit like vizzies are to Max/msp for anyone who has seen those...
17:37 kylemcd gene_ i feel like the thing this might be is like non-core tutorials
17:37 gene_ yeah
17:37 kylemcd because it’s really important to know how to use these things together
17:37 gene_ yeah i am thinking of that as well
17:38 kylemcd and the tutorials could live on the website or someone like filip from creative apps would love to have short articles about this kind of thing
17:38 mattfelsen Ah, the meeting agenda hackpad linked to yesterday's. I just corrected it today's. Thanks
17:38 kylemcd mattfelsen thanks
17:38 gene_ yeah there are issues with scope creep and obscuring too much like you said
17:38 mattfelsen ...and I see you already said that. This is why I'm quiet usually
17:38 admsyn there's the OF blog too
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17:39 kylemcd admsyn good point
17:39 gene_ in any format i think they would be pretty useful, esp for beginners
17:40 kylemcd what do you think about starting it out on the tutorials page, so it can change as the repo changes?
17:40 kylemcd the blog or a CAN post might be a little wrong because it is posted once and then not changed
17:41 gene_ yeah
17:41 gene_ could definitely do that
17:41 zachlieberman this would be awesome to have
17:41 bilderbuchi btw, how do you see moving this into the apps folder? It having to live in the root of OF I find a bit strange.
17:41 gene_ think the tutorials should include a GUI?  or better to be gui agnostic
17:42 kylemcd bilderbuchi i think moving it into the core was the original idea, but now it seems like one of the strengths here is working with non-core addons
17:42 kylemcd gene_ if you work with ofxGui i think that would be the best
17:42 gene_ bilderuchi, yeah it is strange.  i just did that to maintain the right level to OF root from the apps
17:43 kylemcd (minimizing the number of addons will make sure it keeps working for as long as possible)
17:43 bilderbuchi I see, figures something like that.
17:43 kylemcd next!
17:44 kylemcd thanks gene :)
17:44 kylemcd workergnome: multilingual site
17:44 gene_ yeah the tutorials can use ofxGui
17:44 workergnome Hi there
17:44 gene_ thanks!
17:45 workergnome I’m stalled due to lack of time—but I’m here in the hopes that remembering that other people are interested will bump it higher on my priority list.
17:45 workergnome One of my questions is how agressively I can/should modify the content of the OF site as part of this.
17:45 kylemcd my feeling is : you can be as aggressive as you want
17:46 kylemcd the current OF site has had a lot of thought put into it, but it’s also more complex and sprawling than it needs to be
17:46 kylemcd we can always recover by adding things back in if necessary
17:46 workergnome Yeah.  I’d like to keep as much of the content as possible, but maybe reduce some of the duplication.
17:47 bilderbuchi ancillary topic about the homepage: can we kill the old wiki, please? or at least not make it visitor-visible?
17:47 workergnome Which one?
17:47 kylemcd bilderbuchi i think it’s already dead and there are no links to it
17:48 kylemcd we need to archive it but it is no longer in use
17:48 bilderbuchi the old one. but somebody recently found it again?
17:48 kylemcd http://wiki.openframeworks.cc/
17:48 kylemcd it’s on the old server
17:48 bilderbuchi https://github.com/openframeworks/ofSite/issues/300
17:49 kylemcd yeah
17:49 workergnome Yup.  That’s from me.
17:49 bilderbuchi somebody found it. n the forum? i don't remember
17:49 kylemcd :) it’s ok that’s a separate issue i think
17:49 bilderbuchi that's why i dug it up again 20 days ago
17:50 bilderbuchi ok, well maybe it was spurious anyway
17:51 kylemcd ok if there’s nothing else for now, we have another conversation about this via email right now anyway — so let’s keep going
17:51 bilderbuchi ok
17:52 kylemcd halfdanj and dantheman are not available right now either
17:53 kylemcd but i’m trying to figure out a way to get more of these projects that people start, actually finished… i think the main thing we all battle is finding ways to set time aside
17:53 bilderbuchi more public development would probably help
17:53 bilderbuchi then interested others could pick up the reins
17:54 kylemcd maybe, but part of what makes these work initially is that one person can be in full control for a little while at least
17:54 bilderbuchi btw, if we switch to a time-based release cadence, some build/testing automation will be crucial imo, so the CI server at least is an impoertant topic!
17:54 bilderbuchi of course, but no that dantheman hasn't had time for quite a while, how can anybody else take over?
17:55 kylemcd for the smallest things we seem to finish them, but for medium and bigger projects (more than one month of intermittent work) they usually stall out
17:55 kylemcd yes
17:55 workergnome And I get the feeling that a lot of these sorts of projects are not “fix my problem” sorts of things, they’re “do good for the community” sorts of things.
17:55 kylemcd yeah definitely
17:55 kylemcd “problems” have very obvious “solutions”
17:55 kylemcd that’s a good point
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17:56 kylemcd hi ofTheo
17:56 mattfelsen On the note of finding a way to get projects finished, perhaps encouraging documentation along the way (how to set this thing up, how it works, etc.) would be helpful
17:56 admsyn +1 for that
17:56 ofTheo Hi!! I just wanted to say hi quickly I'm on baby duty today so can't stay - but I'll go over the transcripts.
17:56 mattfelsen Apothecary has some pretty good documentation around it
17:57 bilderbuchi *wave*
17:57 ofTheo hey hey :)
17:57 kylemcd that’s a good point. and apothecary is surviving…
17:57 bilderbuchi it also has a team of >1 person who are its stewards ;-)
17:57 mattfelsen ofBook as well
17:57 kylemcd heh heh
17:57 zachlieberman teams are good
17:57 zachlieberman hi to baby !
17:58 workergnome Teams are good.
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17:59 bilderbuchi maybe we could encourage a more documented/open approach to projects in the future, to mitigate the impact of a low bus factor
17:59 Kyle1 joined #openframeworks
17:59 kylemcd i kind of imagined the IRC meetings as a check in point once a month
17:59 kylemcd to do exactly that
17:59 ofTheo baby says gurrr back!  :)  - didn't mean to distract  - hi and bye!! :)
17:59 kylemcd but i think it doesn’t really work that way
18:00 mattfelsen Didn't someone aside from Dan set up some automated build/CI stuff for multiple platforms? I feel like I've seen a table somewhere
18:01 mattfelsen Maybe it was for apothecary lib builds and not the oF lib
18:01 zachlieberman it feels like teams need their own meetings in some way…
18:01 bilderbuchi I tried this, hit my head against it for quite a while, but it didn't really work out and grew too complex. after that, Dan started the work on buildbot
18:01 bilderbuchi this=CI with Jenkins
18:01 zachlieberman (or dare I say it, slack channel)
18:01 bilderbuchi also, there was @benben's self-made solution a couple of years back
18:02 bilderbuchi which actually produced tables, so that's what you say I think
18:02 mattfelsen @zachlieberman +1 slack channels seem like a good place for project communication!
18:03 kylemcd i’ll mention this in the thread with dan/haldanj & workergnome and see if this makes sense to everyone
18:03 kylemcd maybe we could get a PG channel going too
18:04 kylemcd alright, moving on :)
18:04 kylemcd next
18:04 kylemcd 3. bilderbuchi and issues
18:04 bilderbuchi yeah.
18:04 bilderbuchi so, I realised I should step down as the issue tracker & github leader, because I don't have the time anymore to do it properly, due to a new job, a kid, etc.
18:05 bilderbuchi I feel that recently issue maintenance has become more self-admintrating as people started to do stuff like labeling, which is good
18:05 bilderbuchi however, maybe there is someone here interested in taking over (part of) this role from me?
18:06 bilderbuchi I still think that a dedicated person keeping it all together and runnning smoothly would be a good idea
18:06 bilderbuchi and also: thank you oF community, it was great! :-) <3
18:06 kylemcd (also i wanted to have a quick round of applause for bilderbuchi)
18:06 * pizthewiz agrees throughly
18:06 kylemcd *clap clap clap*
18:06 zachlieberman <3 <3 <3 :clap: :clap: :clap:
18:06 pizthewiz 👏
18:06 * bilderbuchi *blushes*
18:06 * futurestack clapsabunch
18:07 admsyn !!!
18:07 bilderbuchi it's been great fun these last 3-4 years!
18:08 mattfelsen 🙌✨
18:08 kylemcd i think we can wait for a week or two for responses to the email to of-dev, and if no one responds we might put a call out on twitter
18:08 kylemcd or i might dig through people who have been contributing recently and try to get them more involved
18:09 bilderbuchi sure. I also won't disappear instantly, I plan to see 0.9.0 out the door, and then fade away (will still be reachable of course)
18:09 zachlieberman tlprnt has been super involved on the ofBook
18:10 kylemcd yeah i noticed that… that was actually who i had in mind :)
18:10 zachlieberman I’m not sure who that is, but they have been super good about trying to get things moving on the repo, a little contenious but super good and positive energy
18:10 kylemcd yes, a little contentious but seem to have a similarly good take-no-prisoners approach like bilderbuchi
18:11 bilderbuchi contentious, indeed :-)
18:11 kylemcd we’ll wait for the reply then contact tpltnt
18:11 kylemcd next!
18:12 kylemcd 0.9.0!!!
18:12 kylemcd ….thoughts? :)
18:12 admsyn I think it's time to issue-cull :)
18:12 zachlieberman +1 to that…
18:12 admsyn or at least hone in on like 2 Big Things to do right
18:12 pizthewiz I think we need to identify areas that are preventing others from moving forward
18:13 admsyn sorting by oldest shows a bunch of issues that kind of trail off
18:13 pizthewiz There has been a C++11 OS X PR for months but hasn't been merged so it seems like we could prioritize to get things like that integrated
18:13 pizthewiz And / or put pressure on the right spaces to move forward
18:13 admsyn I've had good luck with that PR so +1 to that
18:13 kylemcd one possibility is that we coudl release 0.8.5
18:13 bilderbuchi I also think that a merge dirve of sorts would improve things
18:14 bilderbuchi I think the only real major topics are 64bit and c++11?
18:14 pizthewiz We seem to have a lot of PRs and I worry they are rotting
18:14 kylemcd or really what i mean is release 0.9.0 “as is” and then just keep working from there
18:14 pizthewiz The big hangup if I remember correctly is apothecary stuff on Windows no?
18:15 pizthewiz Personally, I don't think master is stable enough for a public release
18:15 bilderbuchi I'm not sure if the repo is in a state for a release?
18:15 bilderbuchi +1 piz
18:15 pizthewiz It seems like some heroics are already being performed on the forum to help people out
18:15 kylemcd it’s not really, but maybe our only goal from here should be “stability"
18:16 jvcleave I think RC should be the goal - maybe RC sticks around for a while longer for 0.9.0 than usual
18:16 kylemcd jvcleave that’s smart
18:17 kylemcd that sounds like the right answer to me. we release the RC on the planned day
18:17 bilderbuchi sounds good. but I expect that RCs will generate wuite a couple of follow-on issues by people having problems, which could distract from doing the rest wuickly/asap
18:17 kylemcd and then we don’t release the real thing until we close all the issues
18:18 kylemcd it definitely will generate more issues
18:18 zachlieberman I think RCs are good and will help focus peoples attentions…
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18:18 pizthewiz Still a ways to go for that RC though no? Seems like we'd need C++11 / apothecary stuff sorted out, else we'd just be sensationalizing a dev build as "release candidate" ;0)
18:18 kylemcd yes
18:18 bilderbuchi I'll start culling issues a bit
18:19 zachlieberman is there anyone who can give a “state of c+
18:19 zachlieberman “state of c++11 aphtecary” overview
18:19 mattfelsen Merge drive on existing 0.9.0 PRs seems good too. I just looked through and most are merge-able but at least two have conflicts (Android and iOS-related)
18:19 futurestack I just request that you put system requirements on the download page.  I tried to get cinder to compile for like 2h the last time I tried and didn't realized it was 10.7+ only
18:19 bilderbuchi also, might be good to get the 7 open PRs inspected/merged asap, and see what issues are left, right?
18:19 futurestack ;)
18:19 bilderbuchi exactly mattfelsen
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18:20 kylemcd futurestack that’s smart, could you edit the page here https://github.com/openframeworks/ofSite/blob/master/download/index.html.mako
18:20 bilderbuchi futurestack could you open an issue at the ofsite tracker?
18:20 bilderbuchi yeah, or that
18:20 zachlieberman sorry I have to run everyone !!
18:20 kylemcd bye zach
18:21 zachlieberman ciao !!
18:21 zachlieberman left #openframeworks
18:21 * mattfelsen waves
18:21 kylemcd zach’s question is still relevant though
18:21 kylemcd if anyone has a rundown
18:21 pizthewiz I don't have a good feel for where C++11 / apothecary is currently. But I'll speculate until someone provides a better idea: apothecary for OS X and iOS is complete (if only via PRs), C++11 on OS X has a PR, both apothecary and C++11 are incomplete on Windows.
18:21 futurestack oF still works with 10.6 unless I'm completely crazy, I was throwing in a remark for if that changes in the future, sorry to sidetrack
18:21 kylemcd futurestack — correct
18:21 jvcleave futurestack - OF typically supports the last 2 SDk releases
18:22 kylemcd pizthewiz i think that sounds correct. is there any reason we can’t merge the OS X / iOS PRs?
18:22 admsyn +1 to merging the OSX one right now right now now now
18:22 pizthewiz It might be good to ask each section leader to triage and provide an update
18:23 mattfelsen I believe the PR for OS X only touches the project files
18:23 mattfelsen It needs an additional PR that has all the built libraries & headers & such
18:23 mattfelsen i.e., tgfrerer's -precompiled branch
18:23 kylemcd i think we should request that
18:23 mattfelsen Def.
18:23 kylemcd ok
18:24 pizthewiz C++11 OS X PR: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/3627 / C++11 arm64 iOS PR: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/3651
18:25 kylemcd great just added a note to both
18:25 pizthewiz I'd love to see these get merged if only to cut down on the zillion forum posts asking about this ;0)
18:25 admsyn pls
18:25 bilderbuchi generally, more speedy PR merges would be great, but that's been an eternal problem ^^
18:26 kylemcd i’d also like to see them merged, but many PRs are submitted without being complete, and would cause more problems than they solve
18:26 mattfelsen Is it too late to add a related item to the agenda? :)
18:26 kylemcd in terms of deadlines i don’t really know what to say since we really can’t release an RC until these things are finished
18:26 kylemcd mattfelsen, no go ahead!
18:28 kylemcd i’m going to leave the current may 18 deadline there and if we can’t do an RC we’ll talk again
18:28 pizthewiz kylemcd: I totally agree on the completeness - in addition to section leaders helping with the issue cull and providing a status summary, it might be good to have the PR authors to post a status on the PR as well.
18:28 bilderbuchi yeah, we just ahve a difficult release since things are so intertwined,
18:28 mattfelsen Just added a note about git LFS. I think one of the holdoffs on merging the OS X PR was not wanting to merge the libs multiple times and bloat the repo unnecessarily. git LFS could be helpful here
18:28 pizthewiz For sure, lots of moving parts
18:29 mattfelsen (if there was an issue with the libs and they had to be rebuilt & recommitted, for example)
18:29 pizthewiz Very good point
18:29 kylemcd mattfelsen i looked at git LFS but if i understand correctly, it’s 1GB storage, 1GB bandwidth
18:29 kylemcd (per month)
18:29 kylemcd we would need a lot more bandwidth
18:29 bilderbuchi yes I looked to. bandwidth config makes it uninterestings.
18:29 mattfelsen @kylemcd if you use GitHub storage, yes. But you can also run your own server
18:30 kylemcd aha, in that case we could run it on rackspace
18:30 mattfelsen There's an S3 implementation on GH
18:30 kylemcd very interesting
18:30 bilderbuchi also kinda strange that they didn't want to get this into git proper. however, Github providing this has a great network effect, probably they will win against the competing technical solutions for this on their network size, alone.
18:31 kylemcd s3 is cool but rackspace would be even better because we have free hosting
18:31 kylemcd mattfelsen would you be interested in looking into it more?
18:31 kylemcd or should someone else?
18:32 mattfelsen I can take a look at how the S3 implementation works and see how much work would be involved to have it run on rackspace
18:32 bilderbuchi for anybody interested, here is my previous research on the matter (from years ago) https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/wiki/Moving-binaries-out-of-the-repo
18:32 mattfelsen I don't think I'd be able to get something together before wanting to merge these PRs for the RC though
18:32 bilderbuchi (it's a bit out of date, though)
18:32 kylemcd yes that’s understandable
18:33 mattfelsen @bilderbuchi this is awesome, thanks
18:33 kylemcd when we move the binaries out of the repo it will break all forks, so we want to do it right
18:33 bilderbuchi you can also hit me up off-list if you want, been thinking about this quite much before
18:34 kylemcd i wanted to add one more thought regarding apothecary, which is that i haven’t heard anything from anyone about windows formulas
18:34 bilderbuchi +1 kyle. that is a big problem. funnily, if github want ot push LFS, they will maybe somehow provide a solutino for this
18:34 bilderbuchi ?
18:35 bilderbuchi this was re breaking the forks
18:35 mattfelsen @kylemcd yes, sorry, I didn't mean to detract but the LFS things seemed related. I've tried to re-start this conversation at Local Projects several times but haven't had much success
18:35 kylemcd mattfelsen i can see that
18:35 pizthewiz Isn't the intention to remove binaries from the repo entirely and just have the apothecary formulas?
18:35 kylemcd pizthewiz yes
18:36 mattfelsen I think we're too scattered/too behind, and while we occasionally build on Windows no one is primarily a Windows dev. I think this may have been an over-promise from our end
18:36 pizthewiz So LTS shouldn't be a big deal post 0.9.0 anyways right?
18:36 pizthewiz (Er LFS)
18:36 kylemcd i think it was more of an intermediate question
18:36 kylemcd like, could we use LFS before we’re done with apothecary?
18:36 kylemcd but maybe it’s a distraction and we should just continue focusing on apothecary
18:36 pizthewiz Ahh gotcha, sorry for adding noise
18:37 kylemcd arturo seems convinced that the idea of bottled/precompiled libs is a bad idea
18:37 pizthewiz Couldn't we just recommend people clone with --depth 1 for now?
18:37 bilderbuchi this is a distraction, apothecary is the correct soltuion, but we also have all the binaries in our reop history which add most of the size/weight, which we would like to get rid of.
18:37 bilderbuchi hence, LFS or equivalent technology
18:38 kylemcd so it’s mostly a timing question. if apothecary gets finished in a reasonable time, LFS is unnecessary.
18:38 bilderbuchi yes we could, since a short while ago, git can do more or less full-featured shallow clones. before, shallow cloning meant you couldn't PR etc
18:38 kylemcd that’s cool, i didn’t know that
18:38 bilderbuchi no, not unnecessary, since we still have the stuff in the history. but less important
18:39 kylemcd aha, i didn’t think about the history
18:39 bilderbuchi that's where most of our repo size comes from
18:39 pizthewiz I guess I don't fully understand how LFS will solve the problem, it will move binaries out of the repo but the binaries will still be in the history no? That's why I think we should just recommend people clone with --depth 1 if they don't want the full historical weight.
18:39 bilderbuchi the good thing is, once we go full apothecary (or equiv), the repo will at least stop growign so much
18:40 kylemcd pizthewiz i think it’s more about being able to contribute, but i didn’t know what bilderbuchi was saying about shallow clones being usable for PRs
18:40 kylemcd that’s very cool
18:40 pizthewiz Right, the size should plateau, but we won't recover the old space unless we do some dark history wrangling
18:40 bilderbuchi well, the thing would be to have any big binaries not in the repo, but basically linked to some external store
18:40 bilderbuchi > Right, the size should plateau, but we won't recover the old space unless we do some dark history wrangling
18:40 bilderbuchi precisely
18:41 bilderbuchi there are a couple of rather mature solutions for this, but the problem is a) you have to rewrite history and b) all your users will need to install some 3rdparty tool to be able to use the repo.
18:42 bilderbuchi hence why i would prefer if that functionality would be included in git itself, then everybody would get it after a time
18:42 mattfelsen @bilderbuchi +1 was just thinking about the latter point
18:42 bilderbuchi read the wiki document ;-)
18:42 kylemcd ok
18:42 bilderbuchi most of that is in there
18:42 bilderbuchi with the exception of it not having been updated for a long time, some of the tools have matured significantly
18:43 bilderbuchi in short, it's a Hard Problem (tm), which is why nothing much has happened on that front for oF
18:43 pizthewiz For sure
18:44 kylemcd bilderbuchi one thing i’m unclear about
18:44 kylemcd let’s say we have “fixed” everything
18:44 bilderbuchi but yes, piz, as a stopgap shallow cloning is a viable workaound for people who just need oF quickly. at the time we discussed this first, I remember elliot being on a slow korean connection and needing half a day to do a fresh clone. now, at least a shallow clone does not restrict you so much
18:44 kylemcd if someone wants to check out 0.8.0 from git, what will they get?
18:45 pizthewiz They will get the entire history up until 0.8.0 no?
18:45 kylemcd i was assuming 0.8.0 would just be unusuable since we would have stripped the binaries from the repo
18:45 bilderbuchi depending on the technical solution we choose, they will get 0.8.0, but the "magic" will get any binaries on-demand from some external store
18:45 pizthewiz This is where the --depth arg really helps.
18:46 kylemcd i see
18:46 bilderbuchi no, the point is that the M2agic" only fetches binaries for commits you check out, in the rest of the history it's just symlinks (or equiv)
18:46 pizthewiz bilderbuchi: Right, cloning a tag still pulls history up to that point?
18:46 bilderbuchi but that's only after they have switched to the new fork since, hah, we have rewritten history to be able to replace binareis with symlinks
18:46 mattfelsen Is there a reason to want to clone 0.8.0 instead of downloading the 0.8.0 release?
18:47 bilderbuchi yes, but history without binaries
18:47 kylemcd yeah mattfelsen i feel like this problem might be a bit academic
18:47 bilderbuchi the history is all there, only the binaries have been replaced by (small) links
18:47 pizthewiz bilderbuchi: IFF we use LFS or another history rewriting dark magic
18:47 bilderbuchi yes
18:47 pizthewiz At present, it pulls all history
18:47 pizthewiz Ok gotcha
18:47 kylemcd for OF we’re on really single track development, so stripping the binaries via rewriting, and not hosting them anywhere, might be fine in the end
18:48 bilderbuchi yes. or (one of the working theories of mine) switching the repo name with the 1.0 release (since it's a big step)
18:48 kylemcd interesting
18:48 kylemcd ok cool
18:48 kylemcd well, one last thing
18:48 kylemcd anyone here in berlin?
18:49 bilderbuchi that would give us time to prepare, and a logical point for a new repo, saing us the hassle of supporting users in deleting repos without losign their apps, re-cloning, new git remotes, et al.
18:49 kylemcd arturo mentioned a meetup a while ago and i was just curious if anything happened
18:49 bilderbuchi *saving
18:49 kylemcd yeah i think you’re right
18:49 pizthewiz So potential take aways: [1] Clones should use the depth arg to carefully control how much history is pulled down (useful for the primary repo and PRs) [2] LFS could still be useful for *future* binary storage, even after binaries are removed from the repo in favor of apothecary formulas [3] Our repo history is very large and will remain so unless we do some dark magic to rewrite it
18:50 bilderbuchi [1] clones *which have bandwidth constraints* and [3] GH LFS or some other solution
18:50 bilderbuchi aside of that, yes to all 3
18:52 pizthewiz Back to Windows formulas?
18:52 bilderbuchi sure ^^
18:52 bilderbuchi sorry, that kinda escalated :D
18:53 pizthewiz No I actually think that was really helpful
18:53 kylemcd regarding the windows formulas, i just asked a guy on github
18:53 kylemcd https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/2571#issuecomment-98520578
18:53 kylemcd he volunteered and said he was interested
18:53 pizthewiz Are we going to run into VS20## support issues in general?
18:54 pizthewiz I'm not a Windows person, but watching what the Cinder team has gone through to qualify and support various versions of VS for their next version makes me think different VS versions can require different stuff
18:54 bilderbuchi what happened to leocolomb btw? haven'T seen him around in a while
18:54 kylemcd i think he’s working on some other things right now
18:54 kylemcd i’m also not familiar with windows development, but it’s clear we need more people who are familiar :)
18:55 kylemcd i’ve got to head out
18:55 kylemcd sorry everyone!
18:55 kylemcd but any other discussion will continue on of-dev
18:55 kylemcd bye for now :)
18:55 pizthewiz Thanks kylemcd!
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18:58 mattfelsen Well that was abrupt
18:58 pizthewiz I've got Windows in a VM but hopefully someone that develops on it more frequently can help out with the apothecary stuff
18:58 bilderbuchi O-o
18:58 bilderbuchi O_o
18:58 bilderbuchi i guess we are... adjourned?
18:59 mattfelsen haha
18:59 pizthewiz Officially, though I'm sure we are allowed to continue discussing
19:00 bilderbuchi :D
19:00 pizthewiz I think the only item on the agenda we didn't make it to was the Berlin oF community
19:00 pizthewiz Which I think Kyle tried to call back to a while ago while I was babbling about clone depths ;0)
19:00 bilderbuchi also, time-based releases, but that's a rather big topic
19:00 micuat it seems like the worst time to join but I'm doing windows+of stuff so I'll see the apothecary stuff if I can contribute
19:00 mattfelsen @micuat that sounds great
19:01 bilderbuchi great! also, check out the irc log here if you want: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/openframeworks/2015-05-03
19:02 mattfelsen There have been a number of offers to help with Windows+Apothecary. I think post-offer though, nobody really knows where to start
19:02 pizthewiz micuat: I'm sure any help would be greatly appreciated.
19:02 mattfelsen Maybe can "assign" a particular lib to different parties, at least as a starting point?
19:02 admsyn there's an opencv PR that's waiting on windows iirc
19:02 pizthewiz I'd encourage you to join the of-dev mailing list and perhaps Slack too
19:03 admsyn https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/3137
19:03 micuat thanks, I'll check out
19:03 pizthewiz Yep, that might be a great starting point
19:04 mattfelsen I'm still trying to track down this apothecary built status spreadsheet for all libs + platforms. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Did I make this up?
19:04 micuat and I wonder if people are aware of liquidzym's vs2013 oF: https://github.com/liquidzym/openFrameworks
19:04 pizthewiz There have been quite a few, though I don't think they are up to date
19:04 admsyn mattfelsen: I think it's been removed since it went out of date
19:04 bilderbuchi mattfelsen I don't know if you saw my original reply, but you didn't imagine, and it's not online anymore
19:05 mattfelsen Er sorry, not a spreadsheet, but a table inside a GH issue
19:05 bilderbuchi oh hey, it's here: http://oftesting.benjaminknofe.com/  (but it's just old snapshots)
19:06 bilderbuchi ah, ok ,something else entirely, sorry for the confusion
19:06 bilderbuchi :-P
19:06 pizthewiz There are 8 open issues with apothecary tag, maybe it is in one of them? https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aapothecary
19:06 bilderbuchi best to ping/mail @bakercp about that, though?
19:07 pizthewiz Yeah, those issues doesn't seem to have that info
19:09 pizthewiz Looks like there is a work in progress PR for C++11 / VS2013 / 64-bit: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/pull/2571
19:09 pizthewiz Right, that's what you guys were talking about earlier…
19:09 mattfelsen Found it!! https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/blob/master/scripts/apothecary/PROGRESS.md
19:10 bilderbuchi tada: https://github.com/openframeworks/openFrameworks/issues/2016#issuecomment-72399182
19:10 pizthewiz Looks like it has been updated a few times since it got merged in, though I'd still wonder if it was accurate
19:10 mattfelsen Oh yes, that's a good one to @bilderbuchi
19:11 bilderbuchi check out https://github.com/danoli3/apothecary-den
19:12 pizthewiz I feel like we need an apothecary Czar for the 0.9.0 release, so many moving parts!
19:13 mattfelsen And duplicate/outdated status info
19:13 pizthewiz Worth noting that the formulas in danoli3's repo != master
19:14 mattfelsen And also OSX/iOS only
19:14 pizthewiz I'd love to centralize some of this info and have it made more inclusive
19:14 pizthewiz Love to have that is
19:15 mattfelsen Anyway, the table in apothecary/PROGRESS was what I was looking for. What do people think of asking someone to work on a specific lib when they volunteer? i.e. Microsoft can look at FreeImage, someone else at OpenCV, etc
19:15 mattfelsen @pizthewiz +1 IIRC at the last meeting this was a similar takeaway
19:16 mattfelsen Maybe we can move the info out of PROGRESS and into README for the scripts/apothecary dir so it's easier to find
19:16 pizthewiz Seems reasonable to me, though I really think the info needs to be funneled through someone or some unifying resource so we can get a more complete picture of what the state of things is.
19:17 mattfelsen Someone to keep it all together is good
19:17 mattfelsen But I also think that info should be documented so it doesn't exist in that person's head
19:18 pizthewiz Absolutely
19:18 mattfelsen (Same problem/discussion from earlier about finishing projects)
19:18 pizthewiz Maybe we can encourage danoli3 to add a Windows column and support those formulas as they come up
19:19 pizthewiz I'm still thinking the apothecary czar could do this
19:19 pizthewiz It wouldn't necessarily require them writing the formulas but being the glue and the grease
19:22 mattfelsen Yea. Maybe a call on the list for someone to manage issues and someone to manage apothecary?
19:24 mattfelsen Although, it does seem like people are pretty much tapped out. Hence the current stall
19:24 pizthewiz I think the need would shrink quite a bit once 0.9.0 was wrapped up, just for now there are so many dependencies that it is difficult to keep track of.
19:25 pizthewiz Or just don't know how to proceed
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19:28 alski Trying to use quaternions to rotate a line to fit between two points, but I can't quite figure out the angles to use. Before I was rotating along the z axis, using the atan2 method for finding the angle between two points, but it doesn't seem to be working the same way with quaternion rotation.
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19:31 mattfelsen Yea, agreed
19:32 mattfelsen Reading through these comments on issues / PRs it seems like there are a lot of working builds
19:32 mattfelsen I wonder why that hasn't translated into apothecary scripts
19:33 mattfelsen But I guess this is more evidence of a need for THE CZAR to track down who got which libs building and asking them provide more info on how they got it to compile // write a script if possible
19:35 mattfelsen Apparently prisonerjohn's fork is working on Windows as well (as of Feb) and I think he's supposed to be in my office this week, so I can check in with him about that
19:35 mattfelsen Doh, just noticed piz's timeout. Guess I'm just talking to myself here
19:36 pizthewiz joined #openframeworks
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19:36 mattfelsen Also, hi @alski. Personally I don't have suggestions for you, sorry :\
19:37 alski Haha no problem mattfelsen. Just kind of putting my problem out there, sometimes I get a better understanding of it just trying to explain it.
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