Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #p6p5, 2012-08-24

| Channels | #p6p5 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:40 stevan joined #p6p5
02:06 kbenson joined #p6p5
03:29 kbenson joined #p6p5
04:28 kbenson left #p6p5
06:27 stevan joined #p6p5
06:48 stevan joined #p6p5
08:37 renormalist Hello most general P6P5 unifier! If there should ever be someone interested in doing and tracking benchmarks for Perl6 I would be happy to help him/her integrating it into my perlformance infrastructure: http://perlformance.net / http://xrl.us/perlformance .
08:38 moritz that sounds good
08:56 sawyer_ joined #p6p5
09:14 Liz renormalist: offer noted
09:14 * Liz is enjoying on day of rest after PRS / YAPC::Europe before going to Moving To Moose Hackathon
09:14 Liz s/on/one
09:15 moritz Liz: are you and pmichaud taking the same flight to .no?
09:16 Liz could well be, at least for the Amsterdam / Stavanger leg
09:16 Liz we're flying from Schiphol, closer than Frankfurt Airport right now  :-)
09:17 moritz I would guess there aren't too many flights to Stavanger :-)
09:18 Liz Stavanger is the oil capital of Norway
09:18 Liz plenty of flights to Stavanger
09:19 * moritz still has this mental image of .no that there are no big towns except Oslo, Bergen and Trondheim
09:19 moritz but it seems that stavanger is no. 4 :-)
09:19 moritz fsvo "big" :-)
09:21 moritz ah, and third-largest airport. I do stand corrected
09:37 sivoais joined #p6p5
10:28 castaway joined #p6p5
10:28 marcus joined #p6p5
10:28 prammer joined #p6p5
10:28 dukeleto joined #p6p5
10:28 sjn joined #p6p5
10:28 colomon joined #p6p5
10:28 Tux joined #p6p5
10:28 sciurius joined #p6p5
10:59 sciurius joined #p6p5
10:59 Tux joined #p6p5
10:59 colomon joined #p6p5
10:59 sjn joined #p6p5
10:59 dukeleto joined #p6p5
10:59 prammer joined #p6p5
10:59 marcus joined #p6p5
10:59 castaway joined #p6p5
11:01 [Sno] joined #p6p5
11:08 castaway random ponderings of the morning.. I know that I dont know/keep up with everything going on in Perl-land .. I'd need to read p5p, the entire of ironman/perl blog aggregators, and monitor various scattered repositories..
11:08 castaway how do others do it? or is knowledge of goings-on realtively scattered?
11:08 castaway .. now pondering some automagical infographic which summarises those things..
11:17 Tux start with joining #news
11:19 castaway and with that comes my favourite question: how would I know that exists if you hadn't just told me?
11:36 castaway Tux: any clue? ;)
11:37 Tux nope, I also heard that here
11:37 castaway ok.. what's it do btw?
11:37 Tux other than that, I collect my "info" from several channels here and a few mailing lists
11:38 Tux I do not read blogs unless pointed to (statement modifier used on purpose to confuse the readers :P)
11:38 castaway ;)
11:38 Tux # news posts about new articles, newly uploaded modules and a few things more
11:38 Tux it is just bot-steered, no personal messages
11:39 castaway ah, so would be curious as to where the bot gets it from..
11:39 castaway sounds like a start tho
11:40 Tux http://tux.nl/Files/20120824134001.png
11:41 castaway thanks!
12:42 fglock joined #p6p5
12:42 sivoais joined #p6p5
12:42 sawyer_ joined #p6p5
12:42 nemesys joined #p6p5
12:42 sciurius_ joined #p6p5
12:42 woolfy_ joined #p6p5
12:42 [Tux] joined #p6p5
12:42 _felliott joined #p6p5
12:42 clunker3 joined #p6p5
12:42 sartak joined #p6p5
12:42 smash joined #p6p5
12:42 takadonet joined #p6p5
12:42 Liz joined #p6p5
12:42 sri joined #p6p5
12:42 japhb joined #p6p5
12:42 leont joined #p6p5
12:42 pmichaud joined #p6p5
12:42 moritz joined #p6p5
12:53 pmichaud having read theorbtwo++'s blog post crystalizes a question I have.... how do we talk about what projects we're working on without inadvertently overpromising/underdelivering in the process?
12:54 pmichaud i.e., if I say I'm working on getting Perl 5 to run in Rakudo, is that an overpromise?
12:55 * moritz reposts the URL for the benefit for the netsplitters: http://blogs.perl.org/users/th​eorbtwo/2012/08/post-yapc.html
12:55 pmichaud (and by "talk about what projects we're working on", I mean as in "blog to the general public")
12:55 pmichaud actually, it's the comment at the end of theorbtwo's post that crystallized the question for me.
12:56 pmichaud I'm afk for a bit but will eagerly read responses when I return :)
12:56 theorbtwo joined #p6p5
12:58 moritz theorbtwo: you just missed some questions inspired by your blog post, see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​p6p5/2012-08-24#i_5925685
12:59 castaway moritz: I prodded him, he read my screen
12:59 moritz ah, good :-)
12:59 theorbtwo pmichaud: Tis a very general problem.  Not sure which comment at the end that crystalized it.  I think if you don't talk at all about what's going on, you can't get positive feedback -- "that seems like a great idea, amazing work so far", and you end up not finishing things for lack of motivation.
12:59 theorbtwo At least, I find that.
13:22 pmichaud from the comments:  "Whatever we do, don't overpromise and underdeliver..."  (http://blogs.perl.org/users/theorbtwo/​2012/08/post-yapc.html#comment-194961)
13:22 theorbtwo Oh!  There's a comment!
13:26 * theorbtwo replies to it.
13:33 Tux comments++, on first read I thought frew was an alias for fglock
13:33 theorbtwo I'd update the text, but I can't find the damn edit link.
13:33 Tux LOL
13:35 leont Don't think it's there, you have to go into the posts page
14:03 moritz joined #p6p5
14:03 pmichaud joined #p6p5
14:03 leont joined #p6p5
14:03 japhb joined #p6p5
14:03 sri joined #p6p5
14:03 Liz joined #p6p5
14:03 takadonet joined #p6p5
14:03 smash joined #p6p5
14:03 sartak joined #p6p5
14:03 clunker3 joined #p6p5
14:03 _felliott joined #p6p5
14:03 [Tux] joined #p6p5
14:03 woolfy_ joined #p6p5
14:03 sciurius_ joined #p6p5
14:03 nemesys joined #p6p5
14:03 sawyer_ joined #p6p5
14:03 sivoais joined #p6p5
14:03 fglock joined #p6p5
14:03 theorbtwo joined #p6p5
14:03 sciurius joined #p6p5
14:03 Tux joined #p6p5
14:03 colomon joined #p6p5
14:03 sjn joined #p6p5
14:03 dukeleto joined #p6p5
14:03 prammer joined #p6p5
14:03 marcus joined #p6p5
14:03 castaway joined #p6p5
14:11 stevan joined #p6p5
14:23 fglock pmichaud: about "how do we talk about", I also share that problem
14:23 fglock also [theorbtwo] - "end up not finishing things for lack of motivation"
14:25 theorbtwo fglock: Sorry about the mis-naming.
14:27 fglock that was fun
14:28 renormalist imho it's simple just do not promise the extreme: Perl5 programs can be run in Perl6 (or vice versa). That was the overpromising last time. So far from the reunification it is about realigning the communities and their efforts. That's a much better wording and not overpromising.
14:29 fglock anyway, I've discussed with some people about using perlito5 to add extensions to perl5 (named parameters, macros)
14:35 fglock and supporting compilation to n different small devices
14:35 fglock but I'm not planning to work on it, so I'm not overpromising
14:36 fglock I'll help these people to try out the new stuff
14:36 theorbtwo fglock: Is the github repo the correct one to be looking at?  It hasn't been modified in several months.
14:37 fglock true, it wasn't modified for a few months. But I did one commit today
14:37 theorbtwo Cool.
15:01 pmichaud renormalist: If people want to know if we're working on getting Perl 5 programs to run in Perl 6, the answer is "yes, we are".  Are you saying we shouldn't talk about it, though?
15:02 pmichaud at what point does mentioning somthing become a promise to deliver it?
15:03 fglock perlito converts some perl5 to perl6, and there is a plan to bootstrap perlito5 in perl6 - but I'm not working on it right now
15:04 fglock you can say "I'm trying this out" and explain what it is
15:05 fglock that's not reassuring to the general public, but it may attract interesting feedback
15:12 fglock adding "use v5" tests is a nice way to "promise to deliver"
15:31 pmichaud wait, you're saying that if I start adding tests for "use v5", I'm somehow promising something?
15:31 pmichaud that's.... weird.
15:36 stevan joined #p6p5
15:45 alester joined #p6p5
15:52 Liz I think *the* thing to mention about the PRS, is that people from different communities got together and agreed on working towards a communal future
15:53 Liz and that hopefully we will hear more about it soonish
15:53 sciurius joined #p6p5
15:53 * Liz afk again for a few hours
16:04 sri mdks blog post talks about a light version of perl, would that be something like mruby? https://github.com/mruby/mruby
16:07 pmichaud sri: I don't know.  mdk's posting was about a light perl with a focus on making a better teaching environment.
16:13 sri i guess mruby has a far wider scope, even though it's rather lightweight
16:26 tadzik theorbtwo: s/it's future/its future/? (blogpost)
16:27 castaway tadzik: where's the edit link tho? ;)
16:28 tadzik castaway: no eye deer :)
16:28 tadzik Nice post too :)
16:47 kbenson joined #p6p5
16:53 Coke joined #p6p5
17:48 theorbtwo sri: I kind of do too, if you look in the right light.
17:49 theorbtwo I'd like a configure option for "I don't have a fork, disable backticks, fork(), threads, etc".
18:25 stevan sri: I have been talking up a light version of Perl too
18:27 japhb stevan: Did you do a MOP talk at YAPC::EU?
18:27 stevan japhb: yes I did
18:27 japhb Link?  :-)
18:27 stevan I dont believe in the internet, it is just a figment of theorbtwo's imagination
18:28 stevan actually I should just get that up tonight
18:28 * japhb is curious what a P5 core MOP will look like, and how it will compare to P6's.
18:28 kbenson Ooh, yes please.  I saw that in someone's flickr yesterday, and it caught my eye as well.
18:28 stevan japhb: there is a lot more info if you go to github
18:28 stevan https://github.com/stevan/p5-mop
18:29 stevan but i will push the talk itself up somewhere
18:29 japhb Great, thank you stevan.
18:29 stevan willkomen
18:29 sri wonder if a light version of perl would borrow more from perl6 or perl5, the idea of a language subset that represents the essence of perl is intriguing :)
18:30 japhb .oO( NQP )
18:30 sri indeed, nqp might be close
18:30 kbenson NQP+?
18:30 japhb Although ISTR TimToady wanting to fatten up NQP a bit.  :-)
18:30 stevan nqp is closeish
18:30 stevan it might be a not quote NQP
18:30 stevan quite
18:30 stevan NQNQP
18:31 kbenson (NQ)^2P
18:31 stevan NQNQP-ish # to be more exact
18:31 kbenson that would look much better if I had better unicode foo
18:31 japhb NQP\i, just to indicate that it's imaginary
18:31 kbenson joined #p6p5
18:31 sciurius joined #p6p5
18:31 alester joined #p6p5
18:31 Tux joined #p6p5
18:31 colomon joined #p6p5
18:31 sjn joined #p6p5
18:31 dukeleto joined #p6p5
18:31 prammer joined #p6p5
18:31 marcus joined #p6p5
18:31 castaway joined #p6p5
18:31 japhb Bah, split
18:32 japhb (repost:) NQP\i, just to indicate that it's imaginary
18:32 stevan japhb++
18:32 stevan although, it is my number one thing to bug patrick about
18:33 japhb What are you wanting to bug him about, OOC?
18:33 stevan about using NQP for Perl 5(ish)
18:33 sri btw. i would also like to see the p5-mop slides ;)
18:34 * japhb is happy to see jnthn++ working on bringing P5regex into NQP and Rakudo
18:34 stevan sri: no, i am uploading them for everyone EXCEPT you
18:34 sri :(
18:34 japhb No slides for you!
18:34 renormalist pmichaud: the difference between today and yesterday is "Perl X *will run on* Perl Y" vs. "people *work on getting*". A) That's much more of a not-overpromising statement. B) the zeitgeist is different in contrast to (2006, 2003, 2000). Many more people work on scary projects. So IMHO A) and B) together make me optimistic to communicate that and being understood by people.
18:35 renormalist (well, exchange "today" and "yesterday" to map what I obviously mean)
18:36 sartak sri: he keeps bugging me about speakerdeck so I think you'll get em soon
18:49 renormalist pmichaud: and not to forget C) what exists today in Perl6 is amazing, that's much different to the past. So I think you definitely should talk about it. I only argue about "will run" vs "work on getting to run".
18:51 stevan processing slide 50 of 87
18:53 stevan sri: fur dich -> https://speakerdeck.com/u/​stevan_little/p/perl-5-mop
18:53 stevan japhb: ^
18:53 stevan kbenson: ^
18:54 kbenson stevan: thanks!
18:54 japhb Thank you!
18:54 stevan I tweaked the notes a little to add some of the stuff I talked about
18:55 japhb stevan++ # I love it when slide decks have decent notes
19:00 sri \o/
19:00 sri shiny
19:05 japhb Oh my, stevan, I'm only halfway through the slides, and I have to say this is *fantastic* work.  Really, really good stuff.
19:05 stevan thanks
19:05 stevan doy deserves much of the credit too
19:05 japhb doy++ as well then.  :-)
19:06 sri stevan++
19:06 sri doy++
19:09 sri first time i've seen the roles part, looks great
19:10 stevan yeah, that is in the roles-redux branch
19:10 stevan cause doy and I cant decide on how they should work excatly
19:11 japhb The use of classes inside packages is very clever.  Feels like a very P5 solution to the problem.
19:12 sivoais joined #p6p5
19:12 stevan I tried to map everything back to either 1) an existing p5-like semantic (has behaving kinda like my and our) or 2) a p5 core thing (classes will be typeglob entries like subs)
19:13 stevan so that way I could explain everything in terms of the p5 that people already know
19:13 * sri wonders if classes in the package main are excluded or if they would become main::Bar
19:14 stevan sri: how do subs work in main
19:14 stevan ;)
19:14 sri ok :)
19:15 stevan they would be
19:15 stevan main::Bar, ::Bar or ,.. if you are in main ... Bar
19:17 japhb The "soon to come" bits look pretty nice, too.
19:17 sri thinking in packages and classes takes a little getting used to, but it's very neat
19:18 japhb What kind of release time frame is p5-mop currently aimed at?  5.20?
19:19 stevan japhb: we are looking to stablize the prototype enough for CPAN soon ish (few months)
19:20 stevan after which we need feedback and people using it
19:20 stevan then maybe a year or so later, it would go into Perl as a core module
19:20 stevan again get tested and vetted
19:20 stevan and then maybe another year, be in the core language
19:20 stevan but this is all subject to change and fluxuation
19:20 * stevan makes no promises
19:20 japhb Sure, of course.
19:20 stevan I wont even give you a holiday ;)
19:21 sartak bastille day!
19:21 stevan I care less about timescale and more about doing it right
19:21 japhb But it feels like a decent "change management" path, and perhaps we can start using it for $day_job when it hits CPAN or so.
19:21 * leont agrees with that approach
19:22 moritz are there plans to support lexical classes?
19:22 stevan moritz: give me a use case and we can talk, but that sounds wildly unuseful
19:22 japhb Yeah, I'm happy to see it done right.  It feels very nice, the kind of things that I'd want when programming OO in Perl 5.
19:23 moritz stevan: I know of at least three lexical classes used in rakudo's setting alone
19:23 moritz or within the compiler
19:23 japhb s/It feels very nice/What is already there feels very nice/
19:23 moritz stevan: I'm not saying it's a must-have, but Perl 6 does many thing lexically, and it is extremely nice
19:24 stevan moritz: I mean, it is likely as simple as
19:24 stevan my class Foo { ... }
19:24 stevan with a destructor for the class(Foo) at the end of the scope
19:25 stevan but I am wary of adding features
19:25 moritz destructor for the class, or for the symbol?
19:25 stevan both i guess
19:26 japhb Germane to the channel, I've got to say that when Moose first became popular I was very conflicted: I vastly preferred the syntax of Perl 6 OO, but liked some of the advanced behavior in Moose that hadn't made it to Perl 6 yet, and Moose worked in Perl 5 already, so I could use it for $day_job if so desired -- but I largely didn't, because syntax really matters for me.  This feels like something I could use daily at $day_job, then go home a
19:26 japhb nd do Perl 6 for my -Ofun work, and feel perfectly happy in both places.
19:26 sartak if instances escape the scope the class would be kept around, presumably
19:26 sartak just like anon classes in moose
19:27 moritz ok
19:31 stevan sartak++ # excellent point
19:31 stevan moritz: not having a compiler and having to live in a p5 world, kinda make some stuff tricky too
19:32 moritz stevan: that's why I asked, and didn't take it for granted :-)
20:11 toddr joined #p6p5
20:33 colomon joined #p6p5
21:03 dngor joined #p6p5
22:31 stevan joined #p6p5

| Channels | #p6p5 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary