Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2009-10-12

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Time Nick Message
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04:18 Hyppolit svn: r8734 | SvenDowideit++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/8734
04:18 Hyppolit don't open a new document when i drag a directory into Padre - if we can't DWIM, at least don't be ugly :)
04:18 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/
04:23 SvenDowideit_ eeeegads
04:23 SvenDowideit_ i just ran share/locale/messages.pot
04:23 SvenDowideit_ er
04:23 SvenDowideit_ perl ../tools/update_pot_file.pl
04:24 SvenDowideit_ out of curiosity because i added a gettext, and there seem to be alot of differences
04:27 SvenDowideit_ mmm, ok now to ask a q that i hope can be answered with a URL:
04:28 SvenDowideit_ how do i get the trunk version of Padre (started using dev.pl) to use the plugins that are in that trunk checkout, without installing either - as i'm also using the released Padre..
04:29 SvenDowideit_ oh boy :) -a would be the answer?
04:34 Alias SvenDowideit_: FYI http://ce.com.au/ switched over to FOSWiki today
04:34 Alias The company, not the website :)
04:34 SvenDowideit_ wow!
04:34 SvenDowideit_ that's not small :)
04:34 SvenDowideit_ any pain points?
04:34 Alias No idea
04:34 Alias But I can ask for a review of the upgrade if you like
04:35 SvenDowideit_ if we can get any info's - they would be cherished :)
04:35 SvenDowideit_ and if we can talk about it publicly, it'd be even more so
04:36 * SvenDowideit_ hopes it works noticeably better, just to feel even more positive
04:37 Alias I'll ask about both
04:38 SvenDowideit_ much appreciated, thanks
04:38 Alias It certainly feels less cluttered
04:38 Alias $work gave me permission to help you guys, and we've sponsored OSDC, so it's entirely possible I can get you something
04:38 Alias (The offer of help is still there if/when you want it)
04:39 SvenDowideit_ good point - we've still not really taken you up on it either - thats something we're pretty disorganised about :/
04:39 Alias Whenever, I'm not offended if you never use it
04:39 * Penfold reads up on FOSWiki
04:39 SvenDowideit_ we know we need help, but have no idea how to use it, or how to direct
04:39 Penfold interesting
04:39 SvenDowideit_ course, we also have the feeling that your time is better used on bigger things
04:39 Penfold wonder what Y! will do (heavy use of Twiki internally). Probably not care, since theirs is, IIRC, a massive fork anyway
04:40 Alias Y! forked twiki?
04:40 SvenDowideit_ Penfold, hehe, there is a good answer to that
04:40 Alias Why am I not entirely surprised :)
04:40 SvenDowideit_ but i don't know i'm allowed to say
04:40 Penfold Alias: heh
04:40 SvenDowideit_ which in itself is a pretty big hint :)
04:40 Alias When you hire Perl programmers a dozen at a time, it's fairly easy to get away with that kind of thing
04:41 SvenDowideit_ their fork isn't that different
04:41 Penfold from my old team at Y!: "y-ize (n): to take existing opensource software, add a bunch of Y!-internal hooks, and release it as a company stanbdard"
04:41 SvenDowideit_ especially when compared to Sun's fork
04:41 SvenDowideit_ though it looks like sanity finally came to Sun, and they started moving to confluence and XWiki - both java
04:42 Penfold SvenDowideit_: heh. don't work there any more, so....
04:42 SvenDowideit_ :)
04:42 Alias Stay tuned for PL/SQL-Wiki
04:43 Alias A wiki would be a great test case for Oracle PL/SQL tuning benchmarks
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04:43 SvenDowideit_ oracle is a massive twiki user too
04:43 SvenDowideit_ though they too have been disinterested in moving off then text based backend
04:43 Penfold BBC use Trac and Confluence, so...
04:44 Alias Any company large enough values stability over everything
04:44 waxhead that's not an excuse to not make things "simpler" if you can...
04:44 SvenDowideit_ y, which is why twiki markets directly to 'stable'
04:45 SvenDowideit_ fixing bugs is sadly a de-stablizer
04:45 Penfold even if the markup is ghastly :D
04:45 SvenDowideit_ yup
04:45 waxhead I'm not sure the change to oracle's database management to a  web interface has made things any "simpler" though...
04:45 SvenDowideit_ web - as in the java stuff?
04:45 Alias wxhead: Yes, yes it is
04:45 Alias Change is risk, risk has a cost
04:45 SvenDowideit_ as in the change they made ~2000
04:46 SvenDowideit_ or have they changed again
04:46 Alias SvenDowideit_: The key seems to be that if you have a commercial support contract, you define support windows
04:46 Alias The single biggest LART stick we have to force through change is that the vendor's support window is about to close
04:47 Alias It's defined as more risky to run without a support contract than it is to force through a big upgrade
04:47 SvenDowideit_ mmm, good point
04:47 Alias We have a pretty damned static environment
04:48 SvenDowideit_ and corporates are getting more simplistically mechanical about applying 'rules' like that
04:48 Alias Well, the rules make sense
04:48 Alias 1. Business depends on technology
04:48 SvenDowideit_ rather than thinking more carefully about it
04:48 waxhead SvenDowideit_: I can't really say.. I'm a sometimes admin of an oracle instance or two.. 9i has the java interaface, 10g has the web interface..
04:48 Alias 2. Any technology which will hurt income must never go down
04:49 Alias 3. Anything which must never go down will eventually require backup from the vendor
04:49 Alias 4. Therefore all major business-supporting technology MUST be supported
04:49 SvenDowideit_ mmm, you really do keep making me think i need a simple support contract system for foswiki
04:49 SvenDowideit_ as i am essentially one of the vendors
04:50 Alias You should, but I don't see it as immediately massively profitable
04:50 Alias We classify everything into support Tiers
04:50 SvenDowideit_ i dont' need profit, i just need an income stream
04:50 Alias Tier 1 must have support contract, must be disaster recoverable etc etc etc
04:50 waxhead alias, I'm creatining a GUI dialog for the "extract suboutine"
04:50 SvenDowideit_ ie, so long as it returns me a similar income to working for someone else, even if it uses up a similar amount of time, i see that as a win
04:50 Alias Essentially infinite resources are available to support Tier 1 if it's needed
04:51 Alias For us, that means the network, internet connection, core ERP system, middleware platform, and my website
04:51 SvenDowideit_ yup - KM's not in there
04:51 Alias yup
04:51 Alias Tier 1 doesn't even include our phone system
04:51 Alias To put it in context
04:51 SvenDowideit_ but, other co's use foswiki for workflow and business practices
04:51 Alias Yes
04:52 waxhead hmmm I'm not sure about an implementation here...
04:52 Alias If the app goes down, and it hurts your company's income, then there's an excellent support opportunity
04:52 SvenDowideit_ so it all depends - i'm starting to be asked about SAP integration, at which point life gets interesting
04:52 Alias SvenDowideit_: ooo
04:52 SvenDowideit_ http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/39642
04:52 Alias We're doing one of the world's biggest Perl/SAP integrations right now
04:52 SvenDowideit_ er
04:53 Alias You know what I have in my bag of tricks now?
04:53 Alias SAP Web 2.0
04:53 SvenDowideit_ giggle
04:53 Alias I have a generalised SAP RFC JSON proxy that runs via xinetd
04:53 Alias We wrote it by accident
04:53 Alias It's like 20 lines of code
04:53 Alias We're not even using it for that purpose
04:53 SvenDowideit_ ok, so, um, it _is_ as simple as it seems (i've only read a few docs thus far)
04:53 Alias Which is the funny part
04:54 Alias It's part of a caching/aggregation system for something that makes 4 MILLION RFC calls to SAP per day
04:54 SvenDowideit_ cos i can't find any evidence that its complex, but my SAP contacts all swear that its hard to do
04:54 Alias Well, it varies
04:54 SvenDowideit_ very sweet - now to CPAN it :p
04:54 Alias So here's the thing
04:55 Alias The universe of SAP software is infinite
04:55 SvenDowideit_ waxhead, that url was the only thing i could think of that might be relevant to you
04:55 Alias There's a crap ton of ways to integrate, and most of them a "modern" and JSON/XML/SOAP overloaded madness via SAP PI (Process Integration)
04:55 Alias We're not using any of that
04:55 waxhead SvenDowideit_: thanks.. read it and tried it out...
04:55 Alias We're using old school RFC integration
04:55 waxhead in this case, I've got the GUI... I'm not sure where to put it though
04:56 SvenDowideit_ i was thinking the SAP::RFC module would be the place to start
04:56 Alias But the RFC calls need to be somewhat hand-crafted on the server end
04:56 Alias They are designed for purpose
04:56 SvenDowideit_ or, if i read it right, there's now a built in (to SAP) SAP_RFC module
04:56 Alias Most SAP implementations are hackup up and modified
04:56 SvenDowideit_ :/ for better
04:56 Alias So it depends
04:57 Alias If you want something that you can make consulting dollars on, it works perfectly
04:57 Alias Because it would require coding for every customer
04:57 SvenDowideit_ though both current contacts seem to have their own SAL guys, so they can do that end for now
04:57 Alias If you want something that can hook into some random SAP server's SOAP service cloud bullshit, that could be harder
04:57 Alias But would let you write generic connectors
04:57 SvenDowideit_ i would prefer the second, but will take what i can get :)
04:58 Alias We avoided the second for a reason
04:58 Alias Perl's SOAP stack isn't that great
04:58 SvenDowideit_ i got the feeling that with RFC you can ask for a list of useable RFC calls
04:59 Alias Sure, but by default that's going to be zero
04:59 Alias Or maybe ping
04:59 SvenDowideit_ and then from there it takes some magicing,
04:59 Alias You get a RFC login, and they need to add calls to your account manually
04:59 SvenDowideit_ i think there are a few to get data from tables etc
04:59 SvenDowideit_ but y - perms are always a fun bit
05:00 SvenDowideit_ still - much thanks - you've pretty much confirmed my general feeling - now all i need is to actually get to play with a SAP instance :/
05:08 Alias That's the hard bit
05:08 SvenDowideit_ yup, very much so
05:08 Alias Plus, you aren't allowed to install the SAP NWRFC SDK client unless you are a legal SAP customer
05:08 Alias The download is only available through their SAP web community bullshit place
05:09 SvenDowideit_ gotta love life like that
05:10 SvenDowideit_ aha, twins are awake - laters all and thanks :)
05:14 waxhead twins!!!!
05:14 waxhead one at a time is more than enough... :)
05:15 Alias I'm sure there's SOME economies of scale
05:15 Alias Still twice the kid shopping, but at half the usual complexity
05:15 Alias Of course, no hand-me-downs
05:15 waxhead maybe...
05:15 waxhead makes sense...
05:16 Alias Larger pack sizes too, so cheaper on a per-child-unit basis
05:16 Alias Then you just need to teach them to change each other's nappies...
05:17 waxhead hmm... I wonder if I'm leaking scalars!!
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05:37 Hyppolit svn: r8735 | waxhead++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/8735
05:37 Hyppolit New Dialog for selecting a function for the insertion point for  'extract subroutine' refactoring
05:37 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Dialog/
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05:39 Hyppolit svn: r8736 | waxhead++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/8736
05:39 Hyppolit Changes to 'extract subroutine' to allow picking where in the current document you want to put the new subroutine
05:39 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Action/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Document/
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06:24 waxhead what's the go with adding to the changes file?
06:24 waxhead are we using cpan names, irc nicks?
06:24 Alias (CPANID)
06:24 Alias trailing
06:24 Alias If you have one, otherwise $whatever
06:29 waxhead we haven't released .48 yet have we?
06:29 waxhead I'm adding some stuff to the Changes file
06:29 waxhead man Sewi has been busy!!!
06:30 waxhead actually there's been a fair bit of bug squashing going on....
06:32 Hyppolit svn: r8737 | waxhead++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/8737
06:32 Hyppolit Added changes made by me.
06:32 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/
06:33 Alias yeah, the bug squashing is awesome
06:33 Alias I can finally spew vitriol into the bug tracker and expect things to get dealt with :)
06:33 Alias Sewi++
06:34 Alias Sewi++
06:34 Alias Sewi++
06:35 waxhead Alias: they always did... just took a while to get there I guess
06:36 waxhead and it's a confidence thing in part too..
06:52 Ryan52 I should really have been fired by now...
06:53 Alias You really SHOULD be excited
06:53 Alias You get to return in triumph to the Debian-Perl group with a working Padre again
06:54 Alias I'm happy to fire you AFTER that
07:02 waxhead Ryan52: fired for what?
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07:06 waxhead is there a way to work out the indent level in the text editor?
07:07 Alias As in adopt automatically whatever the code in the current file uses?
07:08 waxhead Alias: yeah, that sounds about right...
07:08 Alias It's in preferences
07:08 Alias waxhead: Fired for not releasing regularly enough
07:09 waxhead Alias: so if I want to 'clean up' the code with the 'extract subroutine' to make sure the new code is indented right, I have to get the indentation info from preferneces?
07:10 Alias Padre::Current->config
07:10 Alias Or something similar
07:10 Alias There's three settings described in there
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07:29 Sewi good morning
07:33 waxhead hey Sewi
07:34 waxhead Alias:  I'm thinking the editor will know it too...
07:37 Alias Probably
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08:21 sawyer_ how do i find out where the keyboard cursor is in the editor?
08:21 sawyer_ that is, the position in which the user is in (line, column)
08:30 Alias ->GetCurrentPos
08:31 Alias It's not entirely simple
08:31 sawyer_ and the store_cursor_position/restore_cursor_position - does that refer to the mouse cursor?
08:31 Alias There's a group of methods that look kinda like
08:31 Alias my $line       = $editor->LineFromPosition($pos); my $line_start = $editor->PositionFromLine($line); my $line_end   = $editor->GetLineEndPosition($line);
08:32 sawyer_ i actually just tried to {,re}store_cursor_position, it worked
08:32 Alias oh, if you just want to save position etc, that should be ok
08:32 sawyer_ great, then i just finished my first Padre plugin :)
08:32 Alias Although it WON'T necesarily save the window scroll position
08:32 Alias So you could easily end up with jerky functionality
08:32 sawyer_ what do you mean?
08:34 Alias Well, for example, lets say you extract the entire text, modify a bunch of the file, but that won't change the actual line count etc
08:34 Alias Then push the content back in
08:34 Alias Then try to reset cursor
08:34 sawyer_ oh, so the scrolling would get fscked
08:34 Alias Potentially
08:34 sawyer_ alright, i'm not worried about that, since i'm not removing/adding new lines
08:34 Alias Even in that case it might
08:34 sawyer_ how so?
08:35 Alias If you rip out the whole file, then put it back, it's not necesarily going to know the content is the same
08:35 Alias It may want to reset cursor to 0,0
08:35 sawyer_ that's what it did at first, so i tried the store and restore cursor position and i'm seeing it's doing alright to put it back in place
08:36 Alias ok, just be aware the cursor may be right, but the scroll may be wrong
08:36 sawyer_ you're saying the scroll might be reset to 0,0?
08:36 Alias right
08:36 sawyer_ ah
08:36 Alias And then when you put it BACK to the original position
08:36 Alias The scroll will autoset
08:37 sawyer_ dammit
08:37 sawyer_ you're right
08:37 Alias But the line that used to be in the window at visible line 25 might end up line 5
08:37 Alias The current store/restore functionality isn't really implemented well enough yet
08:37 Alias To factor in that kind of purely visual things
08:38 sawyer_ i'll have to play with the positioning
08:38 Alias i.e. A store/restore that also holds the line position
08:38 Alias That information should exist in the editor Wx api somewhere
08:39 Alias So you'd do ( $line, $column, $scroll ) = $editor->get_scrolled_cursor;
08:39 Alias etc etc
08:39 Alias Instead of whatever current two element one exists now
08:40 sawyer_ that'd sure be comfortable
08:40 sawyer_ or the {,re}store_cursor_position could be fixed to also store and restore the scroll position
08:41 sawyer_ then you'd have one single function that actually DWYM
08:41 Alias Possibly
08:41 Alias Feel free to play around and implement it
08:41 Alias See the C++ Wx docs for the extra methods you'll probably need to call
08:43 sawyer_ i'll think i'll try to first finish up my plugin
08:43 sawyer_ but if i get my head around it, i might patch it up
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08:49 Alias By all means
08:49 Alias What plugin?
08:50 sawyer_ something simple, removing spaces from the end of line when saving
08:50 sawyer_ i have a coworker that uses Padre and the tabbing is not... the best, so many a time you're left with spaces/tabs at the end of the line
08:50 sawyer_ i think i've developed a bit of an OCD to this... :)
08:56 Alias Can you make sure that it doesn't delete trailing spaces in the middle of POD
08:56 Alias Or in other places where spaces are significant?
08:56 sawyer_ is there any place where trailing spaces (\s+$) is important?
08:57 Alias =pod
08:57 Alias (empty)
08:57 Alias (spaces)example text
08:57 Alias (spaces)
08:57 Alias (spaces)example text
08:57 Alias line 4
08:57 sawyer_ ah yes
08:57 sawyer_ sure, i guess i can do that
08:57 sawyer_ good idea
08:57 Alias Also, in __DATA__ blocks I believe
08:58 sawyer_ i can easily ignore __END__ and __DATA__ but inline POD would require a bit more trickery, but it's doable
08:58 Alias And possibly heredocs :)
08:58 Alias Fairly easy to do a flipflop type flag for in or out of POD
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08:58 sawyer_ yeah
08:59 sawyer_ recognizing heredocs might be trickier though
08:59 sawyer_ why would you have empty spaces though in a heredoc?
09:00 dolmen Would be simpler to show spaces at end of lines with a special char... That's what I use in Vim.
09:00 sawyer_ me too
09:00 sawyer_ but i find myself running ":%s/\s\+$//g" too often on code
09:00 sawyer_ and i don't see my coworkers doing the same in Padre
09:03 Alias I agree, I like to get rid of trailing spaces
09:03 Alias It's just not QUITE always as obvious as it first seems
09:03 Alias heredocs are basically impossible
09:03 Alias So I'd not worry about them :)
09:04 dolmen and using trailing spaces in heredocs is evil!
09:05 dolmen so deleting them would just be forcing the usage of best practices!
09:05 dolmen (deleting spaces, not heredocs ;) )
09:06 sawyer_ w00t
09:07 Alias point
09:07 BooK jq: ceci n'est pas #perlfr
09:07 jq BooK: raaaaah. :-)
09:09 jq so, when are we swtiching padre to poe? :-)
09:15 waxhead jq: right after the moosification Alias is leading.. :)
09:15 BooK how many halves of CPAN does that make?
09:16 dolmen BooK: POE is quite light
09:16 dolmen on CPAN dependencies
09:16 dolmen at least compared to Moos
09:16 dolmen e
09:17 waxhead I've been looking at POE... can't get my head around it that much...
09:17 waxhead but getting there
09:17 sawyer_ waxhead, it's not too difficult, it's just hard to first to grasp
09:17 waxhead yeah, that's what I'm figuring...
09:18 jq and it's way easier when you start using moosex::poe
09:18 waxhead i have something running, but now want to add in a "every 24 hours archive the log file" type of event, but can't figure out how you do that
09:18 waxhead I'll get around to asking on #poe one night..
09:18 sawyer_ add an alarm
09:18 sawyer_ that's all
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09:24 waxhead really.. that's it? an alarm?
09:24 sawyer_ yes
09:24 jq waxhead: $kernel->delay_add( event => 24*3600 )
09:24 waxhead I guess all events should be done with allarms?
09:24 jq waxhead: depends
09:24 sawyer_ no, some events you want to trigger
09:24 sawyer_ you usually run events usually though "yield" (a method of the kernel)
09:24 jq eg: $kernel->post( $session=>$event )
09:24 jq or $kernel->yield( $event) # send to self
09:25 sawyer_ you can also ask the kernel to yield to an event in a certain session (that's the "post")
09:25 sawyer_ alarm is for running events at a certain time
09:25 sawyer_ however, this is probably be best kept in #poe
09:26 waxhead yeah, thanks.. I'll email that to work to check into it...
09:26 sawyer_ np
10:01 waxhead Alias: what's happened to submersible?
10:01 * Sewi &
10:02 Alias He's still getting settled in his new place I guess
10:02 Alias I'll talk to him tomorrow
10:05 Alias BooK: Where's the repository for Test::Database, can I have commit to fix some of this stuff?
10:14 BooK it's on github
10:15 BooK http://github.com/book/test-database/
10:15 BooK send me a pull request
10:22 Hyppolit #686: Help > Current Document should not load/select Padre.pm POD (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/686#comment:1 ]
10:25 Alias Send you a what now?
10:27 daxim all the cool kids migrated off svn by now
10:35 Alias Places where mere mortals can't go are always attractive
10:35 BooK Alias: er, well, that's what the cool kids using github usually say
10:35 BooK not that I know what it means :)
10:35 Alias Not always so productive or good at being inclusive of course
10:36 Alias Unfortunately, this makes it too hard to help you, since I don't have time to learn git right now
10:37 BooK other option is to do a git clone and send me a diff -ru
10:37 BooK I can handle the details
10:37 BooK or just work a patch from the distro
10:38 waxhead ARGH!
10:38 waxhead man I get lost with some of this code!
10:38 Alias How about I just give you the answer
10:38 Alias t/25-sql.t ............... 1/36 DBI connect('','',...) failed
10:38 Alias That's why you can't open the file
10:38 Alias It would be the null string part
10:39 BooK annoying
10:39 Alias Well, Padre doesn't have any patch tools, so that's out
10:39 shadowpaste "waxhead" at 58.169.12.184 pasted "menu code from Help.pm" (18 lines) at http://scsys.co.uk:8001/34804
10:39 Alias And there's no diff on this machine
10:39 BooK plain files are great too
10:39 Alias How about I just hit this fork button, edit it on the website and send you a link
10:39 BooK if that works
10:39 Alias No idea if it will run, but I'm usually fairly good about editing code blind
10:40 Alias You can debug it :)
10:40 waxhead So, in that paste above, $_[0]  call's the method ->help  ... what the heck is $_[0]??
10:40 Alias The first param to add_menu_item is the wx target it will bind to
10:40 Alias Which becomes the first param to the event
10:41 Alias Thus, $self->help
10:41 Alias I think anyway
10:41 * Alias has to duck home for a bit
12:35 Hyppolit svn: r8738 | SvenDowideit++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/8738
12:35 Hyppolit now that the list is populated using an incrementing idx, we don't need to reverse the list as we put it into the UI
12:35 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Dialog/
13:07 Hyppolit #689: F2 help on foreach is missing (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/689 ]
13:10 Hyppolit #690: F2 on push - no example (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/690 ]
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16:07 Sewi back
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18:59 Sewi Hi szabgab
18:59 szabgab rehi
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20:28 kthakore hi Ryan52 around?
20:32 Hyppolit svn: r8739 | Sewi++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/8739
20:32 Hyppolit Perl tidy
20:32 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Action/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Config/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Document/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Dialog/ trunk/Padre/share/examples/absolute_beginner/
20:34 Sewi Just to get a commit today :-)
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22:23 Ryan52 kthakore: sort of...what?
22:23 Ryan52 contentless pings are useless.
22:36 kthakore Ryan52: oops
22:36 kthakore Ryan52: sorry did the alsa thing work for you
22:37 kthakore Ryan52: if I am trying to find out where the problem is where in Debian packages would I look for bug reports?
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