Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2009-11-29

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Time Nick Message
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06:13 szabgab gm-ish
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07:43 Hyppolit svn: r9304 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/9304
07:43 Hyppolit [XL] add many prereqs, get padre to build
07:43 Hyppolit trunk/Perl-Dist-XL/lib/Perl/Dist/ trunk/Perl-Dist-XL/script/ trunk/Perl-Dist-XL/share/files/
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09:42 szabgab_mib gm
09:42 szabgab_mib anyone here understanding glibc and packaging issues?
09:43 szabgab_mib http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl​.wxperl.users/2009/11/msg6928.html
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11:22 szabgab_mib tsee: hi
11:23 tsee hi
11:23 szabgab_mib have you seen my mail to wxperl ?
11:23 szabgab_mib http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl​.wxperl.users/2009/11/msg6928.html
11:23 tsee Yes.
11:23 tsee I'm not sure I like the idea of distributing a full perl with Padre on linux.
11:24 szabgab_mib why so ?
11:25 tsee a) it's a waste, b) it partly breaks the expectation of typical linux users, c) it creates the problems you're having
11:25 tsee just for starters
11:25 tsee With c), I mean that if you start shipping all the GUI related system libraries, too, you can as well start distributing virtual machines.
11:26 tsee And if you don't, you can expect the user to install perl and wx related packages into the system just as well.
11:27 szabgab_mib people have the choice
11:27 szabgab_mib 1) installing from rpm/deb  2) from CPAN 3) full distro    4) PAR ? 5) our private rpm/deb packages
11:27 tsee Sure. I'm just giving you my opinion. I'm not saying it's the one and only opinion.
11:28 tsee PAR would be working if Padre didn't require a "perl -c" to be available from the system.
11:28 szabgab_mib I know
11:28 tsee But as it stands, it'll be hard.
11:29 tsee I started a fix (i.e. shipping a mocked up perl.exe within the padre.exe), but it's hard.
11:29 szabgab_mib and actually I think that if I manage to build such a package that includes Padre then I go on and will include Moose and tons of other CPAN modules
11:29 szabgab_mib for easy start
11:29 tsee I would suggest you consider it a perl distribution that includes padre, not a padre distribution that includes perl and other stuff.
11:30 tsee And that you advertise it as such.
11:30 tsee Because that's really what it is. That way, you don't break user's expectation.
11:30 szabgab_mib it is called XL-Perl
11:30 tsee And it has the added benefit of making it way easier for users to install extra CPAN modules as a user (as opposed to being root)
11:30 tsee relocatable perl & modules may be difficult.
11:31 tsee But I have to admit I haven't experimented much.
11:31 szabgab_mib it is relocatable and it is already working
11:31 tsee Sergei seems optimistic.
11:31 tsee Nice!
11:31 szabgab_mib except of that problem I mentioned
11:31 tsee That's not fixable, IMO.
11:31 szabgab_mib but there are tons of small things to fix
11:32 szabgab_mib e.g. all the sh-bang of the scripts
11:32 tsee That needs a sort of filter such as what ActivePerl does on installation.
11:32 tsee What was it called? fixin or something?
11:32 szabgab_mib and if I want to allow the users to install stuff from CPAN then I might need to distribute a C compiler as well, similar to what Strawberry does
11:33 tsee Maybe it's worthwhile asking them for hints where you have to be careful. They have a lot of experience.
11:33 tsee No way.
11:33 tsee That is THE way to insanity on linux.
11:33 szabgab_mib that's what I thought as well :-|)
11:33 tsee You'll have to provide packages that are tailored towards the platform.
11:33 tsee You could consider something else:
11:34 szabgab_mib so for now I am thinking about it as a perl in order to make it easy to use Padre
11:34 tsee A package of perl-5.XX.Y.tar.gz, various CPAN .tar.gz's including Wx and Padre.
11:34 tsee And a script that makes building and installing all that from source into a user directory easy.
11:34 tsee A sort of Perl::Dist thing.
11:34 tsee Except it'd be a lot easier on linux.
11:35 tsee Of course, you're not taking away the build time.
11:35 El_Che you should put discussions like this in a blog or wiki for reference
11:35 tsee But if you list wxWidgets and gcc as prerequisites, that'll help cut down the compile time.
11:35 szabgab_mib I can't
11:36 szabgab_mib as we are using a recent wxWidgets that is not available on most Linux distros
11:36 szabgab_mib that are more than 1 year old
11:37 szabgab_mib so you need to build wxWidgets from source on any Linux that is older than 1 year
11:37 tsee Then include the wx sources, too.
11:37 tsee And use that where necessary.
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11:38 tsee non-distribution-native binary packages on linux are evil. Just say no.
11:38 szabgab_mib El_Che: I can appoint you to be the note-taker :-)
11:39 szabgab_mib tsee: that is actually what we tried with the shipwright thing
11:40 szabgab_mib someone could pick that up too
11:40 tsee I have no experience with that. But considering the interaction with system libraries, it seems dangerous and CERTAINLY labourous.
11:40 tsee Not me, for sure.
11:41 szabgab_mib http://github.com/garu/shipwright-padre
11:41 szabgab_mib just for the record :-)
11:42 szabgab_mib oh we might had a misunderstanding there
11:42 szabgab_mib shipwright would distribute source code and a script to compile all the stuff ontu your existing perl
11:42 szabgab_mib is that what you think is dangerous ?
11:43 tsee Nono, then I was misunderstanding.
11:43 tsee That sounds like a rather *good* idea.
11:43 El_Che hehe
11:44 szabgab_mib yes and garu and I have packaged 0.41 but then we ran out of tuits
11:44 tsee Though I wonder what is the difference to cpan?
11:44 szabgab_mib to actually check if that works
11:44 tsee Though one might want to include a perl, too, if you're going down that route.
11:44 szabgab_mib that you get a set of frozen versions
11:44 tsee How's that good?
11:44 szabgab_mib and you donwload the whole thing as one package
11:44 tsee And different from a tiny pip script?
11:45 tsee Hmm, hmm.
11:45 szabgab_mib you won't trip on one of the prereq being broken in on CPAN
11:45 El_Che szabgab_mib: is the idea to support upgrades from within padre that way?
11:45 szabgab_mib El_Che: nope
11:45 tsee I'm not saying the concept of shipwright is bad. It's just that generating a "Foo::Bar" => "A/AU/AUTHOR/Foo-Bar-FIXEDVERSION.tar.gz" mapping and including that in a tiny script shouldn't be hard.
11:45 szabgab_mib it is for installing padre
11:46 szabgab_mib tsee: there is something in what you say :-)
11:47 tsee I still think we should make it easier to install *plugins*, too.
11:47 tsee But apparently, nobody liked the idea of a PAR based plugin installation :/
11:47 szabgab_mib I agree but I am almost totally out of time
11:47 szabgab_mib I liked it
11:47 tsee Me too.
11:48 tsee (both statements)
11:48 szabgab_mib so I am trying build this distro for linux in the hope that some linux users will try padre and start hacking on it :-)
11:50 szabgab_mib there is another advantage of shipwright over pip
11:50 szabgab_mib is that in pip I will need to have the order of depenedencies right
11:50 szabgab_mib or it will try to fall back to CPAN
11:50 szabgab_mib CPAN.pm
11:51 szabgab_mib and pip still does not solve the wxWidgets thing
11:51 tsee You mean it doesn't build non-perl packages?
11:51 tsee Alien::wxWidgets does that..
11:51 szabgab_mib and that we need the gtk headers to build wxWidgets, which means root interaction
11:51 tsee That's how things stand.
11:51 tsee I think this is where you get into crazy land.
11:52 szabgab_mib I am just thinking aloud
11:52 tsee That's fine, me too.
11:52 El_Che szabgab_mib: I started on a gtk2-perl script as a cpan wrapper, but that route is too fragile
11:52 szabgab_mib I think that does not solve the core problem
11:53 szabgab_mib not that I know what is the core problem
11:53 El_Che the core problem for me is that padre is a moving target
11:53 El_Che with evary release we introduce new or more recent dependencies
11:53 szabgab_mib everything is a moving target
11:53 szabgab_mib Padre is just moving fast
11:53 El_Che distros like to freeze stuff
11:54 szabgab_mib or was moving fast
11:54 szabgab_mib that's ok
11:54 szabgab_mib and I am really happy for the downstram people packaging padre
11:54 El_Che the "core" problem for me is that:
11:54 szabgab_mib that should be more roboust than our way, even if it is out of date
11:55 El_Che 1. we need to allow downtream to freeze stuff and support version X for a period of time
11:55 El_Che 2. have a release from padre that's up to date
11:55 szabgab_mib what is the problem with 1 ? isn't that happening ?
11:55 El_Che different people will use 1 or 2
11:56 El_Che the problem was that padre was too new
11:56 szabgab_mib Ubuntu has 0.42 now which is quite ok\
11:56 El_Che so if you needed the features you ended with 2
11:56 El_Che yes, that was pretty cool
11:57 El_Che still, never underestimate the bleeding edge people
11:57 El_Che bbl
11:57 El_Che got to go
11:57 szabgab_mib so once (and if ) I have this distro we solve the other issue as well
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16:54 Sewi hi all
16:56 szabgab_mib hi Sewi
17:03 * szabgab_mib is heading home
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23:25 Alias Greetings all
23:25 * Alias is finally done with crazy overcommitted month
23:25 Alias And can start doing some Padre hacking again

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