Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2010-04-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 dkulchenko and dwoo looks pretty nice
00:04 Getty it makes some small improvements which are nice
00:05 Getty important stuff are unnamed parameters
00:05 Getty <@ function $var @>
00:05 dkulchenko yeah
00:05 Getty or
00:05 Getty <@ if $var; $var; else $magic; /if @>
00:05 Getty so sparing out the @><@
00:05 Getty or }{
00:05 dkulchenko yeah
00:05 Getty whatever you use as delimiter
00:06 Getty THAT is what makes a template engine
00:06 Getty not more obscure syntax
00:06 Getty then everything else
00:06 Getty a var needs a $ in front
00:06 dkulchenko well, can't we just take that and port it to perl?
00:06 Getty hey be my friend
00:06 dkulchenko (in mason, that's <% $variable %>)
00:06 Getty i would kiss your ass and everything else you want
00:06 dkulchenko haha
00:06 Getty i got lots of stuff todo porting the ideas and concept of my php framework to catalyst
00:07 dkulchenko i would do that, if not for my bad coding practices. and lack of parsing experience
00:07 Getty i would love having smarty like template engine
00:07 Getty perfect would be
00:07 dkulchenko yeah
00:07 Getty if you build on top of Template::Toolkit
00:07 Getty but
00:07 Getty only "next gen" (v3) of Template::Toolkit give you the chance to make it like smarty
00:08 dkulchenko remind me again why i'd want to build on top of TT? ;)
00:08 Getty there is no way to make "$var" happen
00:08 Getty cause TT is a cool base for a templte engine, beside its template API
00:08 dkulchenko ah okay
00:08 Getty the API behind is a bit clean
00:08 Getty or lets say, really clean
00:08 dkulchenko is it easily extensible?
00:08 Getty against all other template engine
00:08 Getty somehow yes
00:08 Getty but not enough
00:08 dkulchenko okay
00:08 Getty till nextgen, sadly :-/
00:08 dkulchenko is nextgen in development already?
00:08 Getty also you need to transfer much of PHP functions
00:09 Getty yeah i think its near being finished
00:09 Getty but its not public/CPAN
00:09 Getty i think public yes, but definitly not CPAN available
00:09 Getty which is a bummer
00:09 dkulchenko ah okay
00:09 dkulchenko yeah
00:10 Getty actually
00:10 Getty i'm on a mission
00:10 Getty that i want to make it easy for php dudes to switch to perl
00:10 Getty that would need "disgusting" solutions in perl
00:10 Getty smarty syntax for templates would be 50% of the problem
00:10 dkulchenko that is ironic when you consider PHP was a wrapper around Perl once
00:11 Getty no!
00:11 Getty it wasnt a wrapper
00:11 Getty it was a fork at start
00:11 dkulchenko yeah, that's what i meant
00:11 Getty that was the big mistake of rasmus
00:11 dkulchenko well, they rewrote it eventually
00:11 Getty LOL
00:11 Getty no idea
00:11 dkulchenko hence PHP syntax is stolen from Perl
00:11 Getty they just made crap
00:11 Getty its just crap
00:11 dkulchenko yeah, i know
00:11 Getty it has nothing todo with perl anymore
00:11 Getty NOTHING
00:11 Getty no language is so a failure like PHP
00:12 dkulchenko ummm
00:12 dkulchenko javascript?
00:12 Getty javascript is ok
00:12 Getty javascript has a good design actually
00:12 dkulchenko javascript is less useable than php
00:12 dkulchenko what?!
00:12 Getty for event driven development very intelligent
00:12 dkulchenko well, yes
00:12 Getty haha
00:12 dkulchenko but as a language
00:12 Getty no
00:12 Getty trust me
00:12 Getty its more clean and straight
00:12 Getty you didnt do much with javascript it seems
00:12 Getty i have "eaten" it
00:13 Getty there exist a table somewhere on php documentation
00:13 Getty which shows on the X-axis: PHP function, and on the Y-axis: Value
00:13 Getty and it shows you "true or false"
00:13 Getty so how NULL, "", 0, and so on, behave on specific PHP functions
00:13 Getty its a map you need to know
00:14 Getty "wtf?!?!?!?"
00:14 dkulchenko yeah
00:14 dkulchenko i didn't do much with javascript. i learned Catalyst, DBIC, Moose, Schwartz, Mason, MySQL, Javascript, JSON, JQuery, and AJAX in 3 weeks, then i created a huge complicated web application on all of that
00:14 Getty you know the ->__toString() concept?
00:14 dkulchenko yep
00:14 Getty of php?
00:14 dkulchenko yeah
00:14 Getty ok... may i tell you funny story of it?
00:14 dkulchenko sure
00:14 Getty every function in php, needs to call ->__toString() on its own
00:14 dkulchenko ha!
00:14 dkulchenko wow
00:15 Getty not all internal functions that just want a string as parameter
00:15 Getty call ->__toString() on an object
00:15 Getty for exmaple
00:15 Getty giving subject on mail() function
00:15 Getty it crashs if you dont give a string, you need to call ->__toString() yourself
00:15 dkulchenko wow
00:15 dkulchenko sad.
00:15 Getty yeah
00:15 Getty it find that ridicioulus
00:15 Getty it just amuse me
00:16 Getty and it makes me sad at the same time, cause i made money with PHP 6-7 years of my life
00:16 dkulchenko yeah
00:16 Getty i made a top20 page of germany with my own php framework
00:17 Getty http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/
00:17 Getty the 2nd top car-magazine in germany
00:17 Getty its running on my framework
00:17 Getty with php
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00:17 dkulchenko wow nice
00:17 dkulchenko looks cool
00:17 dkulchenko is it closed-source?
00:17 Getty i made it with 5 dudes and an awesome project leader in 2 months
00:18 Getty the old agency made it in 1 year with 20 students and it has lots of bugs and less features
00:18 Getty my framework is opensource
00:18 Getty i left the company where i made that site
00:18 dkulchenko ah okay
00:18 Getty but i was able to took with me the old framework
00:18 Getty but.... its shit
00:18 Getty its somehow.... POE on PHP
00:19 dkulchenko wow. that sounds amusing
00:19 Getty optimized for being a webapplication
00:19 Getty it is
00:19 Getty all hook/event based
00:19 dkulchenko wow
00:19 Getty the system did nothing without a module
00:19 Getty but the modules made it most awesome
00:19 Getty it was optimized for writing "no code at all"
00:19 dkulchenko yeah
00:19 dkulchenko haha
00:20 Getty logical things that just dont need code wasnt required to make code
00:20 Getty speed by conventions
00:20 Getty so good for job but bad for cooperation
00:20 dkulchenko yep
00:21 Getty but it was awesome
00:21 Getty you laughed at flow3
00:21 Getty i invented SCAD: user-space multiply inhertiance with PHP
00:21 Getty s/you/i/
00:22 dkulchenko is it not online?
00:22 dkulchenko google's not turning up anything
00:22 Getty i dont wanted to put it online
00:22 Getty its scary
00:22 Getty its like an atomic bomb put into PHP coders hand
00:22 Getty wait gimme an example URL
00:23 dkulchenko just any url?
00:23 Getty http://www.raudssus.de/scadsample.html
00:24 Getty sorry, english not mother language and i'm a bit drunk i meant i want to give you an URL
00:24 dkulchenko ah okay
00:24 dkulchenko yeah, that looks really confusing
00:24 dkulchenko english ain't my mother language either, i'm ukrainian ;)
00:25 Getty ja sluschaja museku!
00:25 Getty :D
00:25 dkulchenko what music are you listening to? ;)
00:25 Getty hehe
00:25 Getty i had russian 1/2 year on school
00:25 Getty and 1 year hebrew
00:25 Getty but i loved hebrew more
00:25 dkulchenko haha nice
00:25 Getty ki amar adonai
00:26 Getty "so god says"
00:26 dkulchenko yeah
00:26 Getty you know hebrew???
00:26 dkulchenko SCAD just confused the hell out of me
00:26 dkulchenko nope
00:26 Getty yeah
00:26 Getty its evil
00:26 Getty if i would make it public to PHP scene
00:26 Getty it would crush it
00:26 dkulchenko yeah
00:26 Getty the people wouldnt be able to handle it right
00:27 Getty i even dont used it myself
00:27 Getty i just made it
00:27 Getty and i needed 8-9 hours and it just has one "bug"
00:27 dkulchenko i can top that. i have code that I wrote a year ago, it can make any programmer's eyes roll back into their head :)
00:27 dkulchenko it is the result of a project that started out simple and turned huge
00:27 Getty show
00:27 Getty :-P
00:28 dkulchenko it is a web application. in one file :P
00:28 dkulchenko will do
00:28 dkulchenko one sec
00:28 Getty btw: www.raudssus.de/scad-0.1.tar.gz
00:28 Getty ha
00:28 Getty i have the smallest CMS ever made
00:28 Getty you cant top me
00:30 dkulchenko squeal like a pig: http://pastebin.com/z75dRZcU
00:30 Getty ...........
00:30 Getty want really a comment from me?
00:31 dkulchenko yeah?
00:31 Getty no you dont ;)
00:31 dkulchenko haha okay
00:31 dkulchenko that code i later rewrote into a huge catalyst application
00:31 Getty sorry again ;)
00:31 dkulchenko it's much much much more readable now :P
00:31 Getty <? list($base) = explode(".", basename($_SERVER['PHP_SELF'])); $fcontents = file ($base.".dat"); while (list ($line_num, $line) = each ($fcontents)) { if ($line_num == 0) { ?>
00:31 Getty <
00:31 Getty thats a CMS
00:32 Getty ah wait:
00:32 Getty <? } else { $pos = strpos($line," "); $link = substr($line,0,$pos); $text = substr($line,$pos); ?>
00:32 Getty that line, too ;)
00:33 dkulchenko wow
00:33 dkulchenko just wow :P
00:34 Getty yeah ;)
00:34 Getty i was just bored
00:34 Getty i analyzed 30< CMS before
00:34 dkulchenko haha
00:34 Getty and just said "I want tomake the smallest"
00:34 Getty like.. http://www.raudssus.de/chess/
00:34 Getty made it in 2-3 hours
00:34 Getty not done
00:34 Getty but funny cool
00:35 Getty its a system that accidently can chess by default
00:35 Getty you can make any boardgame with oit
00:35 dkulchenko that's pretty cool
00:36 dkulchenko i spent 3 months picking and choosing CMSes. i settled on drupal, became experienced, created http://portools.com/ on it. grew a strong hate for it. got a job fixing Drupal for 2 weeks, hated it a hell of a lot more after that. now i hate all CMSes.
00:36 Getty lol
00:36 Getty my boss made a project in drupal
00:36 Getty before i joined his company, or lets say he decided to make it with drupal before
00:36 Getty then he made it in drupal and made 95% working in 1 week straight work
00:37 dkulchenko yeah
00:37 Getty i made him a CMS based on my framework in 1 day that made 100% working in 2 days
00:37 dkulchenko wow
00:37 Getty and it was used for 3-4 other sites diretly
00:37 Getty yeah, still php crap
00:37 Getty but it worked
00:38 dkulchenko brb
00:54 dkulchenko back
00:54 Getty re
00:54 dkulchenko but why'd you write php crap, instead of good perl?
00:54 Getty are you on game development?
00:54 Getty i ignored perl till 2-3 years ago where iw as forced to work with it by job
00:55 dkulchenko nope, i'm not on game development
00:55 dkulchenko i don't like all that event stuff
00:55 Getty you want to be on game development?
00:55 Getty bah! ;)
00:55 dkulchenko it seems complicated
00:55 Getty its not
00:55 Getty its more easy
00:55 Getty if you dived into it
00:56 dkulchenko well, it would be fun to try then :)
00:56 Getty i want to extend a game engine with libperl++ and do lots of web stuff with catalyst
00:56 Getty for opensource game development
00:56 Getty i got playerid.net
00:56 dkulchenko wow. a game engine in perl. that sounds like it could get a lot of people onboard with perl :)
00:57 Getty hehe i hope
00:57 Getty for now we got the engine
00:57 Getty and need to integrate libperl++
00:57 Getty which isnt "done" so far
00:57 dkulchenko what exactly is libperl++?
00:57 Getty but hey, still :) its a plan
00:57 dkulchenko yeah
00:57 Getty there is a new libperl++ by leont
00:57 Getty it makes libperl object orientated
00:58 dkulchenko i don't know what libperl is either, but google told me
00:58 dkulchenko wow. perl from c. yikes
01:00 dkulchenko interesting concept...
01:01 Getty its cool
01:01 Getty cause game logic doesnt need to be C
01:01 Getty that is ridicioulus
01:01 Getty for comparing 2 int values making pointer
01:01 Getty the not "High speed" code can be abstracted to perl
01:01 Getty so that its easier to modify
01:02 Getty so that easier people can make own game logic
01:02 Getty that is our target
01:02 dkulchenko yeah
01:02 Getty are you with me? :) wanna join Conflict Industries and support community driven development? :)
01:02 dkulchenko sure, sounds like fun ;)
01:03 Getty we are just starting but if you are on quakenet, join #cindustries and #battlecube
01:03 dkulchenko okay, will do, one sec
01:03 Getty #battlecube is our current active project, #cindustries is the gathering for the "team" but no activity there
01:04 dkulchenko i just realized all that was on irc.perl.org#padre. wow :P
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02:10 waxhead #900
02:10 Hyppolit #900: opening binary files may crash Padre (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/900 ]
02:10 waxhead whoops
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02:21 waxhead hey Alias... how's your easter?
02:21 Alias I'm two days and a half days into a 5 day long marathon deployment of a project in development for 2 years
02:22 Alias Only easter and christmas have long enough holidays to fit the deployment
02:24 waxhead oh.. so it's a delayed easter for you then?
02:24 waxhead wow... 2 years...
02:24 waxhead big project?
02:24 Alias $40m software development budget
02:25 Ryan52 Alias: what is it? (if you don't mind me asking)
02:26 Alias The core ERP system for http://ce.com.au/ is being completely replaced from scratch
02:27 Alias It's a $1.5b logistics chain that provides all the office supplies for non-retail corporate types
02:27 Alias Governments, multinationals, all the banks, every school, etc
02:27 Alias The army, and so on
02:27 Alias We move matter
02:28 Alias This weekend is the first release, we're starting with New Zealand
02:28 Ryan52 what's ERP?
02:29 Alias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP_ERP
02:29 waxhead enterprise relationship p something
02:29 waxhead oh.. resource planning...
02:29 waxhead from scratch?
02:29 waxhead that's gutsy...
02:29 Alias And ERP system is the big software system that looks after all the accounting and movement of physical materials
02:30 Alias Also manufacturing and so on
02:30 Alias Sales, blah blah blah
02:30 Alias Remember tron?
02:30 Alias Think the Master Control Program
02:30 Alias The manufacturer of our current ERP went out of business 5 years ago, so we forked their product
02:30 waxhead yeah.. hence it's gutsy...
02:31 waxhead so many things to potentially break
02:31 waxhead so integreated
02:31 waxhead even normal upgrades would be nerve racking
02:31 * Alias &
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04:58 szabgab gm
04:59 szabgab waxhead_, have you sent an announcement about 0.59 to the padre-dev list?
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07:58 Sewi Happy easter
08:10 szabgab you too :-)
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10:27 waxhead_ szabgab, no I didn't
10:27 waxhead_ I'll get around to it shortly...
10:28 waxhead_ szabgab, what's the idea of the SQL plugin?  is it meant to be a means of connecting to SQL databases and querying them within Padre?
10:44 szabgab yes
10:49 szabgab that was the idea but I have not got enough tuits to actually do it
10:49 waxhead_ szabgab, ok.. been hacking on something for a day or so... very ugly... alot different to what you started with...
10:49 waxhead_ stealing ideas from everywhere
10:50 waxhead_ hoping to get something right with it too
10:55 szabgab enjoy :-)
10:57 waxhead_ ha.. it's hard to know if I do.. it's so frustratingly slow going... and then there's all the bits that I just don't get...
10:57 waxhead_ but, we'll see how it goes...
10:57 waxhead_ I'm hoping to connect to a db soon
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11:49 LeK hi
11:54 waxhead_ hey LeK
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12:43 submersible happy easter
12:47 waxhead_ hey submersible, happy easter to you too...
12:48 submersible hi waxhead
12:48 waxhead_ lots of chocolate for the little one?
12:50 * waxhead_ wonders if he should branch the plugin before going to bed.. or hope the laptop doesn't die over night
12:52 submersible little one has been content w/ second hand chocolate via mum
12:52 waxhead_ haha .. :)
12:52 waxhead_ getting plenty of sleep?
12:53 submersible no
12:53 submersible :)
12:55 waxhead_ ahh.. then it's how it should be... :)
12:56 waxhead_ if the first one wrecks havoc on your sleep patterns, then the next one will be an angle
12:56 waxhead_ right.. speaking of sleep.. I'm off..
12:56 waxhead_ can't be bothered trying to work out the svn commands to branch tonight...
12:56 waxhead_ night
15:01 Hyppolit svn: r11284 | mattp++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11284
15:01 Hyppolit get out of /branch
15:01 Hyppolit branches/ trunk/
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16:37 zenog hi
16:38 zenog One question regarding #900: Would it suffice to wrap the code that has the encoding problems inside an eval block and just omit an error message?
16:38 Hyppolit #900: opening binary files may crash Padre (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/900 ]
16:53 Hyppolit #919: (wishlist) text cursor position should be highlighted in the outline (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/919 ]
16:57 Hyppolit svn: r11285 | zenogantner++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11285
16:57 Hyppolit added "list" command that lists all the remembered ? phrases - beware! not tested!
16:57 Hyppolit trunk/Hyppolit/lib/
16:57 zenog ... attempting to break stuff again ... :-P
17:07 Hyppolit #920: (wishlist) outline: "new" method should be highlighted (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/920 ]
17:19 Hyppolit svn: r11286 | zenogantner++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11286
17:19 Hyppolit first attempt to fix ticket #900: opening binary files may crash Padre
17:19 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/
17:20 Hyppolit svn: r11287 | zenogantner++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11287
17:20 Hyppolit tidy in tests that recently have been modified
17:20 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/t/ trunk/Padre/xt/
17:22 zenog feedback for r11286 would be appreciated ;-)
17:22 Hyppolit Changeset #11286 http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11286
17:23 szabgab zenog, what editor are you using?
17:23 zenog szabgab: Padre ;-)
17:24 szabgab ah I see, you have wrapped the whole thing in an eval block and that caused the indentation change
17:25 zenog szabgab: I am not sure whether this is the best solution, but at least Padre does not crash, and it gives the user a more or less meaningful feedback.
17:25 zenog There are still ugly error message on STDERR, though.
17:25 szabgab could your write a test for this?
17:25 zenog Sure.
17:30 zenog In which test file should I do this?
17:30 szabgab and check why the smoke tester fails again
17:30 szabgab xt/mimetype.t fails
17:31 zenog I guess I should add the test case to xt/mimetype.t then?
17:32 zenog Is there a rule of thumb about what goes into t/ and what goes into t/?
17:38 Sewi t are tests which need to run at installation time
17:38 Sewi (things that might fail on other Perl's or plattforms)
17:38 Sewi xt are tests only for devleopers/release testing
17:39 Sewi (things that are plattform independent or too heavy to check on each installation or should-be instead of must-be)
17:39 Sewi Like badcode.t - a violation there is no reason for stopping an installation but developers should know it.
17:40 zenog Okay.
17:46 Sewi If you write a test, ask yourself: If this fails (on a released version) during installation at a user's computer - would it be safe to continue the installation. Any failing t/ test would unconditionally abort the installation making Padre uninstallable at this computer. (Even if there are things like force install or manually removing the t/script before install, they shouldn't be default.)
17:51 szabgab Sewi, interesting way of thinking about this
17:51 szabgab though I think you are too demanding from the tests :-)
17:52 szabgab but I don't have a better definition
17:53 zenog Makes sense.
18:00 Sewi Why fail an installation because of a badcode error?
18:02 zenog Hm. Strange. The test suite fails when I run it via "make test"
18:02 zenog If I run "prove xt/mimetype.t", it passed
18:02 zenog In the same shell, same environment variables etc.
18:03 Sewi no
18:03 Sewi make test defines a temp padre dir
18:04 szabgab because prove uses the already installed padre
18:04 szabgab use   prove -b xt/mimetype.t
18:04 zenog ah okay
18:04 szabgab and before that     run      make
18:17 zenog okay, think I got the reason.
18:19 Hyppolit svn: r11288 | zenogantner++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11288
18:19 Hyppolit fixed eval block so that 'return' statements do the right thing (xt/mimetype.t now passes again)
18:19 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/
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19:14 Hyppolit svn: r11289 | zenogantner++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11289
19:14 Hyppolit added tests for ticket #900
19:14 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/xt/ trunk/Padre/xt/files/
19:15 zenog So, there should be the test ...
19:32 Hyppolit svn: r11290 | zenogantner++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11290
19:32 Hyppolit tidy recently changed test
19:32 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/xt/
19:35 Hyppolit #914: Syntax highlighting for POD files (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/914#comment:1 ]
19:39 Hyppolit #900: opening binary files may crash Padre (closed defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/900#comment:1 ]
19:39 zenog So, enough for tonight. See you later guys...
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