Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2010-06-17

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:21 Alias Just an FYI
02:21 Alias I'm about to completely break the directory tree
02:21 Alias It's going to do some weird things for a little while
02:22 Alias The core functions still work, but you might see the sort order jump around wildly and stuff like that
02:22 Alias Just for a few days
02:22 garu Alias: will it be awesome after that? :)
02:22 Alias It will
02:22 garu yay
02:22 Alias It will do everything in the background
02:22 Alias And the search widget at the top won't block the editor for half a minute on large projects :)
02:39 Hyppolit svn: r11677 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11677
02:39 Hyppolit Weaving more hacks into the different tree events to work with the new data model.
02:39 Hyppolit In the short term, it's probably going to like kind of broken. Live with it for the moment. :)
02:39 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Directory/
02:40 Alias Right, that's the last point I can get to without actually ripping out features form the old directory tree
02:40 Alias Which is next
02:40 Alias Removing caching and some of the drag and drop stuff
02:41 Alias Unfortunate, but oh well
02:41 Alias I've been noticing that it's sometimes easier just to rip out performance improvements when changing the underlying model
02:41 Alias Because who the hell knows if that optimisation or caching approach is even valid any more
02:44 garu yup
02:45 garu hopefully, changing the underlying model will make things faster anyway
02:45 garu besides, we can always re-optimize :)
03:01 Alias Well, currently I'm doing blanket full scanning
03:01 Alias Which removes all the code needed to support partial scanning
03:01 Alias The new background code means it doesn't block the gui any more
03:01 Alias The new failure mode, however, is that the directory tree is blank till the full scan is completed
03:02 Alias But I can live with that in the short term, until we do a fresh batch of optimisation code
03:02 Alias At least I can get the file search to be fast with the new code
03:02 Alias So I'll do that first
03:02 Alias Incremental search on an unscanned tree requires the use of a "Stream" rather than a simpler task, and I've never actually written one of those before
03:03 Alias (Even those the new code should support it)
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04:01 raydebs Hello
04:03 raydebs I have a question about using the debugger with a script argument in Padre 0.63
04:08 Alias Ah, you came back :)
04:09 Alias We do see your questions, there's just not always someone awake right that moment
04:10 Alias szabgab: You know the most about the debugger, how do you provide arguments to the script invocation?
04:15 Hyppolit svn: r11678 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11678
04:15 Hyppolit Completely gutting the directory browser, and removed about 75% of the features in it.
04:15 Hyppolit
04:15 Hyppolit The new background scanning invalidates most of the search and tree-building code, and the caching code doesn't really work right any more.
04:15 Hyppolit
04:15 Hyppolit Caching was so well integrated I also scrapped most of the other features, so they can be rewritten with the new model in mind.
04:15 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Directory/
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05:25 szabgab Alias, raydebs I don't think you can currently do that so the workaround would be to write @ARGV = ("param", "param"); in the code
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05:36 Alias raydebs: Does that answer your question?
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06:10 raydebs Yes.  For now.  Thank you.  It would be a really nice "feature" to have. :)
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06:45 Zapelius I just crashed padre again, a GTK error
06:45 szabgab Zapelius, released version or trunk?
06:46 Zapelius 0.64
06:46 szabgab I think there was at least one crash fixed in trunk
06:46 szabgab you might want to give that a try
06:46 szabgab btw can you tell us when does the crash happen?
06:47 Zapelius I have a working dir ~/src, where I had a file open, say foo.p6 (and a few others in that dir). I closed the file in padre, then in console I did 'mkdir foo; mv foo.p6 foo; cd foo; chmod g+w . foo.p6; '
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06:47 azawawi good morning
06:48 Zapelius at the moment of chmod -> Gtk:ERROR:/build/buildd-gtk+2.0_2.20.1-1-i​386-Ixfflh/gtk+2.0-2.20.1/gtk/gtkfilesyste​mmodel.c:746:gtk_file_system_model_sort: assertion failed: (r == n_visible_rows)
06:48 azawawi Alias: ping
06:49 Alias pong(ish)
06:50 Zapelius $that_error_above .= '\nAborted'
06:50 Alias There's probably more new crashes added in trunk than were removed
06:52 Zapelius hmm... "\nAborted" :)
06:53 Alias file_system_model_sort... curious
06:53 Alias Is than a file dialog of some kind?
06:53 Alias Or just a file abstraction in general
06:53 azawawi Alias: congrats on the grant. When is it going to start?
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06:59 azawawi Zapelius: trying it over an ubuntu vm
07:04 Zapelius I can't reproduse it myself with any another file I have in ~/src (tried once)
07:04 azawawi so it happened only once?
07:04 azawawi trunk or Padre 0.64?
07:04 Zapelius yes.. .64
07:05 Zapelius thou I did a bzr init/commit in between, that I thout wasn't meaningful to this
07:06 azawawi bzr?
07:06 Zapelius bazaar version control
07:06 Zapelius now I got a segfault
07:06 Zapelius w/o any other output
07:08 Zapelius I'm running a bit low on RAM on my VM host currently, could that affect it? (increased RAM on VM from 256M->1.5G before for compiling rakudo faster)
07:09 Zapelius theoretically I would say no myself :)
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07:10 azawawi Zapelius: i tried it no segfaults... 512MB VM
07:11 szabgab I think we did see some issues with wx - at least during compilation - of lack of memory
07:11 szabgab I cannot tell what is the minimum free memmory required
07:12 azawawi Zapelius: wait...
07:12 azawawi Zapelius: STD.pm is a monster when it comes to memory usage :)
07:12 szabgab 256M sound too low, is 1.5G plenty
07:13 Zapelius I'm running up to 4 VM's at a time (worst case), so I try to keep their RAM's at minimum
07:13 Zapelius 4G on my MBP
07:13 azawawi Zapelius: STD.pm checker takes a lot of RAM... that's for sure.
07:15 Zapelius I can't remember exactly if I did somthing on padre between the crash and console file handling... :(
07:15 szabgab I am reading a blog on usability now:        One person commented: �Not terribly helpful. Assumes you know what you are doing.�
07:15 azawawi regarding Padre and Perl6?
07:16 szabgab Ubuntu
07:16 azawawi yeah that's true
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07:19 azawawi One of the major problems that i had when developing the Padre Perl 6 support was the *nix-only mentality of the various tools
07:20 azawawi assumptions of makefiles when not all not users will have a working make utility
07:20 azawawi s/all not/all/
07:21 azawawi usage of Shebangs with an explicit perl interpreter path when it is not going to work for sure on another system...
07:22 Alias azawawi: The grant started in September 2005, and was completed in 2007 with only partial success, but paid in full because I accidentally created Strawberry in the process
07:22 Alias azawawi: It just happens that the state of Padre now FINALLY meets the criteria of the 2005 grant :)
07:23 szabgab azawawi, I have to go now for a few minutes but I'd like to discuss these usability issues with you
07:23 szabgab back soon
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07:27 azawawi szabgab: sure take your time... drinking coffee :)
07:28 azawawi Zapelius: what's the overall usability experience you had with Padre + Perl 6 so far?
07:28 azawawi Zapelius: good... bad... sucks :)
07:29 Alias For me, mostly sucks
07:36 azawawi Alias: :)
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07:41 szabgab azawawi, I am back
07:42 szabgab so you mentioned a few things
07:42 szabgab e.g. shebangs
07:42 szabgab where ?
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07:47 azawawi szabgab: im talking when dealing with STD.pm stuff
07:47 azawawi szabgab: too many assumptions
07:54 Zapelius azawawi, syntax checking is great, a bit slow thou. syntax coloring sucks :) I'm using it over an ssh'd X session so it's a bit slow
07:56 Zapelius my biggest problems are with the keys. I'm used to mac keyboard shortcuts and things, and those linux/win shortcuts just suck..
07:56 Zapelius :)
07:57 szabgab azawawi, so is any of your complaints directed to Padre or is that just STD.pm related?
07:57 Zapelius but I think most of those issues are solved once padre runs natively on osx
07:57 szabgab Zapelius, and once we can let the users configure key bindings
07:57 Zapelius it could show classes on the right too
07:58 Zapelius now I just have an empty "Functions" window slice on the right
07:58 Zapelius classes/methods
07:59 Zapelius currently I'm thingking of using emacs for editing and padre for syntax checking :)
08:00 azawawi szabgab: im talking generally about the integration with other Perl open source projects...
08:01 azawawi Zapelius: I have practically zero knowledge about Mac in general. Although i had a plan last year to buy a Mac...
08:04 szabgab Zapelius, do you have view functions turned on or view outline ?
08:04 szabgab the latter should show you more things
08:04 szabgab azawawi, yeah, the general Perl community is very Linux/Unix centered
08:05 Zapelius didn't have outline, functions yes (empty as no sub's defined)
08:05 szabgab I hope that Strawberry Professional will help in making some changes there
08:05 szabgab Zapelius, so try the outline, that's much better IMHO
08:06 Zapelius outlines shows only regexes, attributes and subs. I do have a plenty of regexes, just two test subs and a single attribute :)
08:06 Zapelius then plenty of classes and methods that don't show up :)
08:09 Zapelius azawawi, the most differences from mac to linux are that apps are bundled standalone "packages", GUI elements and keyboard shortcuts have very well defined guidelines
08:10 szabgab Zapelius, so either try to fix that or try to prod azawawi into doing it :)
08:10 szabgab I mean the outline
08:11 danlucraft May I submit this enormous patch for consideration? http://gist.github.com/441833
08:12 * Zapelius out to lunch
08:12 danlucraft it stops it going into an infinite loop when the wxPerl binary is just /usr/bin/wxPerl
08:14 danlucraft and you're on osx
08:15 * azawawi work &
08:18 Hyppolit svn: r11679 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11679
08:18 Hyppolit Blindly applying danlucraft's OSX anti-infinite-loop patch, because I don't care about Mac :)
08:18 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/script/
08:18 danlucraft heh
08:20 danlucraft thanks Alias
08:21 Alias n/p
08:21 Alias If you care about Mac stuff, you really should just get commit
08:21 Alias We don't have enough Mac fu on the team
08:21 Alias It's really the weakest of the three platforms
08:22 danlucraft well, if I have any more for you we can see
08:22 danlucraft can I ask, how do I open a directory for browsing?
08:24 danlucraft hmm, well opening a perl file in lib opened padre as a project, so that's nice
08:25 Alias "Project Intuition"
08:25 Alias We try to make Padre do what you meant without you asking it
08:25 Alias If you try Find in Files, you'll notice the same project root is automatically filled in as the base for the recursive search
08:26 Alias And a few other subtle things can happen
08:26 Alias If you tried to do a perl tidy now, it would apply Padre's own rules instead of your own
08:27 danlucraft that's really nice
08:27 danlucraft I guess it just recurses up to find a project definition
08:27 danlucraft eek: http://cl.ly/068c7390bd76caff7b4a
08:27 Alias yup
08:28 Alias Some of the dialogs are using an old fixed width dialog generator
08:28 Alias Wx itself supports content-driven sizer stuff, but not everything uses it
08:28 Alias We're working on it...
08:28 Alias :)
08:28 danlucraft hey, I can read it, np
08:28 Alias When I replace Ack with our own file search code, I'll rewrite that dialog
08:28 danlucraft wx spews exactly the same console warnings as swt/cocoa does
08:29 Alias interesting
08:29 Alias So it's likely the machine, not us
08:29 danlucraft I wonder what they're both doing wrong with cocoa?
08:29 danlucraft yeah, or that
08:29 danlucraft btw, the third textbox on there wasn't actually prefilled with the project path
08:30 danlucraft was it supposed to be?
08:31 Alias Of course
08:31 Alias Most of the time, if you are doing a recursive search, it's probably within the current project
08:31 Alias Especially on larger projects
08:32 danlucraft reading about your new task stuff
08:32 danlucraft how are you expecting it to help with incremental search?
08:33 danlucraft isn't that more of an 'online' thing?
08:33 Alias Currently, tasks have to return answers all at once
08:33 Alias request, wait, response
08:33 Alias The new task model theoretically supports partial answers
08:33 danlucraft with you
08:34 Alias request, wait, message, message, message, response
08:34 danlucraft that's smart
08:34 Alias So we can have longer-running background tasks that stream updates
08:35 Alias The original model didn't really handle that very well
08:35 * Alias home
08:35 danlucraft you'll want to lock the doc while search is happening then I suppose
08:35 danlucraft or something
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09:57 * Zapelius *burrrrrrp*
09:58 Zapelius I can do some OSX testing for padre, FYI. at least run binaries :)
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10:20 danlucraft Alias: do you know how the experimental dmg on the download page was created? I can try updating it
10:26 Sewi distribution?
10:26 Sewi download?
10:26 Hyppolit download is http://padre.perlide.org/download.html
10:26 Sewi hmm
10:27 Sewi Sorry.
10:34 Zapelius danlucraft, the dmg is basically just a "mountable tarball" made by osx disk utility. if you meant how the .app was created I don't know
10:35 Zapelius thou the .app is just a package, meaning actually just a directory
10:35 Zapelius theoretically you could update the contents there?
10:37 Zapelius as the app package is "selfcontained" the binary needs to know somehow how to use the Resources directory inside the Padre.app/Contents directory
10:41 Zapelius seems like the app contains just a binary (Padre.app/Contents/MacOS/padre) that launches _padre (Padre.app/Contents/Resources/_padre) with wxPerl, using the selfcontained Resources/perl5 that contains Padre.pm and Padre/*
10:41 Zapelius so you could just replace those modules there?
10:45 Zapelius at least the threads.bundle (whatever..?) seems not to be suitable for OSX 10.5
10:46 Zapelius cd Padre.app/Contents/Resources; wxPerl -Iperl5 _padre  ---> Can't load 'perl5/auto/threads/threads.bundle' for module threads: dlopen(perl5/auto/threads/threads.bundle, 1): no suitable image found.
10:48 szabgab danlucraft, Zapelius so are you both mac users?
10:48 Zapelius file threads.bundle says it contains three architectures, x86_64, i386 and ppc7400. I don't know which it expects to get
10:48 Zapelius at least I am
10:48 szabgab if so I have a question, I am thinking about buying a mac notebook and I wonder if the battery times are real ?
10:49 Zapelius been since 2004, exlusively :)
10:50 szabgab I thought of a 13" MacBoook Pro with 2.4 GhHz processor
10:50 szabgab "up to 10 hours battery life"
10:50 Zapelius I guess the adversed times are optimal usage times, I don't have one of the new ones, but sure the new ones last way longer than my 2007 model ever did
10:51 szabgab what is that in reality if I want to work on an airplane for example?
10:51 El_Che szabgab: battery adverts are never real
10:51 szabgab e.g. my next flight to the US will take 13 hours
10:51 El_Che macbook do have great battery time, but not what they sell
10:52 Zapelius I would be happy with 6-7 hours with some cpu usage, I think could be possible
10:52 El_Che szabgab: buy an extra battery
10:52 szabgab my notebook currently has a 1 hour batterly life
10:52 El_Che szabgab: old battery?
10:52 El_Che batteries degrade
10:52 El_Che s
10:52 szabgab it gave 2 hours when I started to use it, I think
10:52 szabgab or even less
10:52 szabgab I had never had a long battery life thing
10:52 El_Che Linux is not the best in battery consumption
10:53 Zapelius mine does ~2.5 hours anymore it did last some ~4 hours. with two batteries I did play BF2 a few times during a Helsinki-Shanghai flight (~10 hours) :)
10:53 szabgab yeah, I am sure it far from optimal on the specific notebook
10:54 szabgab or I just buy a dead-tree book :)
10:54 szabgab it is way cheaper than a notebook and lasts longer :)
10:54 El_Che szabgab: I may be old school, but nothing beats a good book in such situations
10:55 szabgab my flight leaves at 23:30 so I think I'll do some serious sleeping on the plane anyway
10:58 danlucraft szabgab: when I used a dell I got something like an hour and a half. when I got my first mbp last year I was amazed to consistently get 5hrs
10:58 danlucraft that's probably gone down to about 3 now, after a year of constant use
10:59 szabgab mbp as in mac?
10:59 danlucraft yeah, macbook pro
10:59 szabgab nice
10:59 Sewi szabgab: Isn't there a power source in the airplane?
10:59 danlucraft Zapelius: thanks for all your notes above. I'll read them at lunchtime :)
11:01 danlucraft szabgab: you've made me curious about it. I think I will properly test my battery life today
11:02 szabgab Sewi, I never saw one
11:03 szabgab maybe on first class
11:03 szabgab but even there the only thing I saw advertised now were USB connections
11:03 szabgab for devices that are powered that way
11:06 Zapelius one nice thing is that the osx battery estimate usually matches onto the minute. or course it does change when power usage changes, but it still is quite exact
11:06 Zapelius I'm usually working onto the last minute and save my docs when the extimate reaches 0 minutes. shortly after that the machine goes to sleep
11:08 El_Che Zapelius: you live dangerously :)
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11:09 Sewi szabgab: Google says that the A320-200 should have power outlets in economy class, but it might depend on the airline. You should call them up and ask :-)
11:09 szabgab I think I'll find it out tomorrow :)
11:10 Zapelius El_Che,  my mac just gives me the opportunity to work efficiently ;)
11:11 Hyppolit svn: r11680 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11680
11:11 Hyppolit ignore generated file
11:11 Hyppolit trunk/
11:11 Hyppolit svn: r11681 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11681
11:11 Hyppolit link to job related blogs
11:11 Hyppolit trunk/perlide.org/polls/the-most-important-​features-of-an-employer-or-job-opportunity/
11:13 Sewi My netbook lives 5-7 hours depending of usage :-)
11:43 szabgab Sewi, that's another option I think of
11:43 danlucraft the iPad has an amazing battery life. I watched House on it for 5 hours straight the other night
11:43 szabgab I don't remember, do you run windows or linux on that?
11:44 szabgab Sewi, and can you give me the model number of that notebook?
11:50 Sewi Samsung NC10
11:50 Sewi It came with preinstalled XP and I added a Ubuntu partition.
11:50 Sewi It also has Sound since 9.10 :-)
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12:04 Zapelius interesting... previously I told szabgab that outline didnt' show methods, but now it does :)
12:15 Hyppolit svn: r11682 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11682
12:15 Hyppolit A variety of simple easy fixes for simple easily identified bugs in the new directory browser code
12:15 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Directory/
12:23 szabgab Sewi, and does it have such long battery life when you run Ubuntu on it?
12:27 Sewi szabgab: I rarely use windows on it, so yes.
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15:30 * Sewi is heading to the first Hannover.PM meeting now...
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19:44 coreyf1513 i'm about to install padre 0.63 on windows 7, I already have strawberry perl installed to C:\strawberry.  Do I need to remove the existing install of stawberry, or can I keep that install separate from the padre install?
20:02 Sewi hi cbrink
20:02 Sewi The Padre .msi installer will put itself in c:\strawberry
20:02 Sewi If possible, install from cpan
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20:43 szabgab coreyf1513, I think the better way is to remove Strawberry and install Padre that will also bring you Strawberry
20:43 szabgab I wish we already had Strawberry professional :)
20:45 dapatrick Looks like directory tree listing broke between yesterday and today.
20:46 dapatrick Not sure with commit it was.
20:46 dapatrick Woah weird. Now it just showed up.
20:46 dapatrick Nevermind.
20:49 rindolf Hi all.
20:49 rindolf Hi szabgab
20:51 szabgab hi rindolf
20:51 rindolf szabgab: hi. What's up?
20:51 szabgab http://www.whatsup.co.il/
20:52 rindolf szabgab: heh.
20:52 rindolf szabgab: that's a first.
20:52 rindolf szabgab: usually people say "The ceiling", "the sky", etc.
21:01 kthakore rindolf: working after 5 hr exam :|
21:02 rindolf kthakore: ah.
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21:12 kthakore hi
21:13 rindolf kthakore: hi.
21:13 rindolf kthakore: what time is it there?
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22:27 El_Che if someone knows what happend with the mod_perl simple project, we may help this debian developer http://blog.steve.org.uk/that_friend_​promises_his_undying_friendship_if_yo​u_would_do_him_a_small_favour_.html
22:28 kthakore El_Che: ?? maybe perlmonks ppl would know?
22:30 El_Che I remember the project, but idd google doesn't help
22:31 El_Che a mod_php clone
22:31 kthakore that doesn't sound so good now
22:32 El_Che it's still a lot easier to setup than mod_perl

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