Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2010-07-05

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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06:17 waxhead hey szabgab
06:17 szabgab hi waxhead
06:23 daxim joined #padre
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06:34 Sewi Hi all
06:36 szabgab hi Sewi
06:42 waxhead hey Sewi
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09:30 szabgab ppl, do you have ideas that you would like to see implemented in Perl - you just don't have the time or tuits for them?
09:32 Sewi in Perl = changes to Perl (5) itself or projects/modules which should be written in Perl?
09:33 szabgab can be both
09:33 Sewi A operator like ||= which checks the new value, e.g. a short form of $foo = $bar if $bar
09:36 Sewi And: Some kind of one-click-mod_perl-setup. Let a user (FTP-)push a perl project to a server, run this script (maybe via web?) and everything is configured. Hard to do and will take time until ISP will use it/allow using it, but installing mod_perl based things is still hard to do.
09:36 Sewi "Installation" of scripts is something which is better with PHP.
09:42 sorear now if only Perl (5) had user defined operators, that would be quite trivial
09:42 Sewi trivial, but not fast :-)
09:43 pece joined #padre
09:43 sorear somebody should write an inliner for Perl 5
09:43 sorear shouldn't be terribly hard with CHECK hooks and opt-in for what you want inlined
09:44 sorear lots of boilerplate though
09:48 daxim Sewi, mod_perlite
10:57 pece joined #padre
10:59 El_Che daxim: it looks pretty dead
11:00 * daxim sighs
11:03 daxim El_Che, http://stackoverflow.com/ques​tions/2987192#comment-3069721
11:41 Sewi daxim, El_Che: thanks.
11:42 Sewi But after visiting the homepage and the git page, I still don't know how to use it or what it does :-)
11:49 szabgab I am submitting our application to OpenUsability
11:49 szabgab they ask for the details (name, email) for a few people in the project
11:50 szabgab of "nfluential developers"
11:50 szabgab of "influential developers"
11:51 daxim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_bus_number
11:51 daxim derive the top 3 from the repo
11:52 daxim bus influence can't be denied, hehe
11:54 Sewi lol
12:10 szbalint joined #padre
12:12 shadowpaste "szabgab" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "padre committer" (68 lines) at http://paste.scsys.co.uk/46328
12:13 szabgab wow, I still have a slight edge over azawawi
12:14 szabgab and I am at 21.47% of total commits
12:16 szabgab (garu+tsee+jquelin+Sewi+adamk+azawawi+szabgab) = 80%
12:18 shadowpaste "szabgab" at 217.168.150.38 pasted "2000 latest commits" (41 lines) at http://paste.scsys.co.uk/46329
12:19 szabgab that shows the people who were active recently
12:21 szabgab I think I'll just give alias, sewi and azawawi
12:23 szabgab request submitted
12:59 Sewi Why didn't you add yourself?
13:00 szabgab besides myself of course
13:01 szabgab but I was the submitter anyway
13:01 daxim 't would be interesting to see blame line count instead of commit count
13:03 szabgab except of course we break the blame system of svn with tidy
13:04 szabgab but I'll try to keep that in mind for a birthday report on Padre
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13:18 djsiegel joined #padre
13:18 djsiegel hey szabgab
13:18 szabgab hey
13:18 szabgab yes, it is better to talk about padre here
13:19 sjn joined #padre
13:19 Sewi daxim: We got fisheye
13:19 daxim url?
13:19 djsiegel szabgab: so what's the state of the project? Are you guys looking for some UX help?
13:19 Sewi google://fisheye+padre
13:20 daxim UX yes please
13:20 Sewi http://fisheye2.atlassian.com/browse/padre/
13:20 djsiegel Are you guys rolling all of your own UI? Did you ever consider building on top of another IDE like Eclipse or MonoDevelop?
13:20 djsiegel Or are you using an IDE toolkit with common widgets?
13:20 djsiegel Like autocomplete sutff?
13:20 djsiegel stuff*
13:21 szabgab djsiegel, just so others also know he is from the Canonical usability team
13:21 daxim wxwidgets was picked specifically so that this perl ide is actually written in and extensible from perl
13:21 djsiegel ah, ok
13:21 Sewi djsiegel: Padre is way faster than Eclipe, there is no need to build another EPIC :-)
13:21 szabgab djsiegel, we use wxwidgets and scintilla editor widget
13:22 szabgab and one of the objectives was to look native in all os-es
13:22 djsiegel I recommend you guys take a look at MonoDevelop 2.4 for some interesting cross-platform IDE UI
13:22 daxim I'm the kde guy and resent that native remark
13:22 djsiegel they have some cool in-context UI for exampling variables, errors, etc., that might interest you
13:22 djsiegel but anyway,
13:22 djsiegel http://davidsiegel.org/announcing-ux-advocates/
13:22 djsiegel ^ take a look at this
13:23 djsiegel We're working on getting all OSS projects a dedicated UX person.
13:23 szabgab daxim, sorry :)
13:23 djsiegel Do you currently have anyone on the project who does some UX?
13:23 szabgab ask someone to make a wxwidgets -> kde thingy
13:23 daxim ah cool, do you work with mpt?  I value his work at mozilla/ubuntu very much
13:24 djsiegel Yes, he sits about 6 feet from me :)
13:24 djsiegel But he's on holiday atm
13:24 daxim give him a thumbs up when he's back ;)
13:24 djsiegel Will do.
13:24 Sewi Hyppolit: fisheye is http://fisheye2.atlassian.com/chart/~​charttype=Line,stacktype=Author/padre
13:24 Hyppolit fisheye was unknown
13:24 Hyppolit fisheye is now http://fisheye2.atlassian.com/chart/~​charttype=Line,stacktype=Author/padre
13:24 * szabgab installing  monodevelop
13:25 szabgab djsiegel, we don't have any UX person here
13:26 szabgab as far as I can tell :)
13:26 djsiegel Do you have any responsible contributors interested in UX?
13:27 szabgab now I am not sure I understood that sentence ?
13:27 djsiegel Do you have anyone working on Padre currently (someone in this channel) who has expressed interest in UX, or has done UX work in the past?
13:27 daxim me
13:27 djsiegel I'm looking for someone who could be your UX Advocate.
13:27 daxim I've typed up http://padre.perlide.org/t​rac/wiki/TranslationStyle
13:28 djsiegel Excellent, daxim.
13:28 djsiegel szabgab, are you maintainer?
13:28 szabgab but daxim hates our underlying assumption of using GTK :)
13:28 djsiegel hehe
13:28 szabgab yes
13:28 djsiegel ok, perfect
13:29 szabgab and the guy who gave the stupid name to the project :)
13:29 djsiegel Seems like a good name to me!
13:29 djsiegel It doesn't have "perl" in the name, that's a good start!
13:29 djsiegel GtkPerlIDE
13:29 szabgab the first letter stand for Perl :)
13:29 daxim WxPerlIDE
13:29 szabgab or was that Practical ?
13:29 djsiegel ah, yeah, even better
13:29 szabgab or Pure?
13:30 daxim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki​/Pure_(programming_language)
13:30 djsiegel Anyway, daxim, may I refer to you as Padre's UX Advocate?
13:30 daxim yes
13:30 djsiegel daxim: take a look at the first few paragraphs of my blog post
13:30 djsiegel daxim: and record your project name and contact details here: http://openetherpad.org/uxadvocates
13:30 szabgab daxim, just please refrain from renaming files on the web without talking to the rest of the people on the channel :)
13:30 wwe joined #padre
13:31 szabgab just for disclosure I also just submitted a request to the openusability people
13:31 wwe hello everybody.
13:31 djsiegel szabgab: we are working with them on this UX Advocate project, so that's great.
13:31 szabgab I have no idea if they react and how fast
13:31 szabgab hi wwe
13:31 Sewi Hi wwe
13:31 djsiegel hi wwe
13:31 daxim I've read the blog entry now, djsiegel
13:32 szabgab djsiegel,  I met Bjoerb Balazs at LinuxTag
13:32 djsiegel daxim: basically, we want to set up a UX contact on every OSS project so we can all discuss UI better
13:32 djsiegel daxim: so you can be the point of contact between the Padre team and my design team.
13:32 daxim yes, do we come together on a mailing list or something?
13:33 djsiegel and between the Padre team and other UX people
13:33 djsiegel daxim: We don't have a mailing list yet, but let me set up a quick Wave
13:33 szabgab "Untrusted packages could compromise your system's security."
13:33 Sewi djsiegel: Are you OS-independent?
13:33 djsiegel szabgab: you didnt' add the gpg key
13:33 djsiegel Sewi: am I as a human being? yes
13:34 szabgab I did not even add the repo you suggested :)
13:34 wwe I'm playing with a fresh Padre 0.66. Just found the highlighter doesn't recognise the // defined or operator. All the code marked pink starting with a second slash. I didn't want to create a bug for this, is somebody there who can simply fix it for one of next releases?
13:34 Sewi We had some discussions on being windows-compatible or linux-compatible in some points where both wasn't possible.
13:34 Sewi djsiegel: I meant your project/approch
13:34 djsiegel Sewi: yes the UX advocates project is concerned with open source usability.
13:35 szabgab wwe, that's a know issue with the scintilla highligher
13:35 djsiegel Including OSS projects on proprietary OSes
13:35 Sewi wwe: This language is shown in the botton status bar at the 4st item from right?
13:35 szabgab wwe  for small files you can use the PPI Experimental highlighter
13:35 Sewi this=Which
13:37 wwe PPI Experimental works fine. Thank you.
13:38 szabgab it is just slow
13:38 szabgab and will fall back to scintilla for bigger files
13:38 kthakore szabgab: has anyone done a valgrind of Padre recently?
13:39 * szabgab staring at the monodevelop thing trying to figure out how to use it
13:39 * szabgab wonders if there is a video for that
13:39 kthakore szabgab: what are you trying to do on monodevelop?
13:39 szabgab steal
13:40 kthakore szabgab: hehe
13:40 kthakore szabgab: steal what ?
13:40 kthakore I like there debugger
13:40 szabgab whatever I can
13:41 szabgab djsiegel, suggested that there are some good help windows
13:41 kthakore please please please steal thier last file support
13:41 kthakore oh yeah that too!
13:41 szabgab djsiegel, what should I look at in monodevelop?
13:41 kthakore last=large
13:41 Sewi kthakore: dev.pl is prepared for using another profiler, so the answer might be "no" :-)
13:41 szabgab kthakore, why not describe it in a bug report to padre?
13:41 kthakore szabgab: cause I am lazy :3
13:41 szabgab fair enough
13:41 kthakore szabgab: maybe  soon
13:42 Sewi kthakore: why not write it yourself, your got a commit bit afair :-)
13:42 djsiegel szabgab: new project/solution
13:42 kthakore Sewi: LIES! I have no commit bit!
13:42 djsiegel choose new C# console project
13:42 kthakore Sewi: all lies!
13:42 Sewi kthakore: Oh, I got some of them laying around on my desk, do you want one?
13:42 djsiegel szabgab: then type System.Console.
13:42 djsiegel see some autocompletion stuff
13:42 djsiegel try debugging
13:42 kthakore Sewi: no
13:43 kthakore Sewi: ok so recently I found out that SDL's perldestruct level was not set
13:43 kthakore Sewi: so it was indirectly losing about 2 MB in memory
13:43 kthakore Sewi: that is why I wanted to ask if you guys did valgrind on padre
13:44 Sewi Do you want to try it? You seem to got valgrin and I guess you got Padre :-)
13:44 szabgab yes we need to work on our auto completition
13:44 szabgab djsiegel, do you have padre installed already?
13:44 kthakore Sewi: but I got no X11 at work
13:44 djsiegel szabgab: yep
13:44 djsiegel very quick!
13:44 Sewi kthakore: No graphics at all?
13:44 kthakore Sewi: I am on windows no valgrind
13:45 szabgab so type    grep  and press F2 on the name
13:45 kthakore Sewi: ok give me a ./dev.pl command that will open and close quickly
13:45 djsiegel szabgab: yeah I saw this
13:45 djsiegel I just think opening a new window is pretty inconvenient
13:45 djsiegel you want to keep the user in context
13:45 djsiegel Monodevelop does this well
13:46 Sewi There is a quick-help-option in the View menu...
13:46 Sewi Showing tooltips as-you-type
13:46 kthakore Sewi: ?? wut?
13:46 szabgab Call-tips
13:46 * kthakore is crazy now
13:46 Sewi kthakore: Sorry, was @djsiegel.
13:46 szabgab I wonder if we need both
13:47 szabgab a simple help like the call-tips (but with a bit more stuff)
13:47 Sewi szabgab: We need both, the tooltips are annoying if you know the commands and they show not enough information if you don't know something special
13:47 szabgab and a bigger help like the F2 has now
13:47 Sewi kthakore, djsiegel: View->3rd item below 3rd line
13:48 djsiegel well, you have the user place the cursor on a name then access a menu
13:48 szabgab can we get the call-tip on demand now?
13:48 djsiegel why not let me just hover over a name?
13:48 djsiegel leave my cursor position where I want it
13:48 szabgab djsiegel, that was my plan :)
13:48 djsiegel szabgab: :)
13:48 Sewi kthakore: ./dev.pl -- --actionqueue=file.quit
13:48 szabgab with the mouse I mean
13:48 kthakore Sewi: ok
13:49 Sewi djsiegel: No, it shows the tooltips automatically once the option is enabled.
13:49 djsiegel Sewi: ah cool
13:49 szabgab Sewi, call-tips , they are called :)
13:49 djsiegel very nice
13:49 djsiegel can someone give me a nice big perl file to load?
13:49 djsiegel so I can look at the outline and stuff
13:49 Sewi lib/Padre/Wx/Main.pm
13:50 szabgab type Padre::Main
13:50 szabgab highlight it and ctrl-shit-o
13:50 szabgab shift
13:50 Sewi szabgab: Where is the shit key? :-)
13:50 djsiegel can't find the file
13:50 szabgab I have to wash my hand now
13:50 djsiegel you guys this is really good work!
13:51 Sewi szabgab, djsiegel: It works only if your current project|dir is Padre :-)
13:51 kthakore svn?
13:51 Hyppolit svn is http://padre.perlide.org/tr​ac/wiki/DownloadRepository
13:51 kthakore bah ....
13:51 kthakore just give me the SVN clone url
13:51 kthakore ...
13:52 szabgab kthakore, what did you expect? github?
13:52 kthakore yes!
13:52 szabgab github?
13:52 kthakore I WANT MY GITZ NAO
13:52 kthakore szabgab: what is the svn clone ... thingy
13:52 daxim http://padre.perlide.org/trac/wiki/GitMigration
13:52 kthakore to get the code
13:52 kthakore bah .... no not that
13:52 * kthakore cries
13:52 kthakore I just want the code so I can valgrind it
13:53 szabgab that reminds me I have find how to change the default browser in ubu
13:53 kthakore Sewi: HALP poor SVN noob please
13:53 kthakore Sewi: what is the svn get? svn pull?
13:53 kthakore Sewi: svn foo url?
13:53 * kthakore is super stupid today
13:54 kthakore seriously are you guys just laughing at my plight
13:54 kthakore ... -.-
13:54 daxim svn checkout
13:54 szabgab Hyppolit, svn is also   http://svn.perlide.org/padre/trunk/
13:54 kthakore what is the url?
13:54 Hyppolit svn is now http://padre.perlide.org/tr​ac/wiki/DownloadRepository and also http://svn.perlide.org/padre/trunk/
13:54 kthakore AH!
13:54 kthakore thank you
13:54 szabgab thank Hyppolit
13:54 kthakore szabgab++  daxim++ for helping dumbass
13:54 szabgab Hyppolit++
13:55 kthakore Hyppolit++
13:55 szabgab karma Hyppolit
13:55 Hyppolit Karma of Hyppolit is 3
13:55 kthakore oh loardy!
13:55 daxim Hyppolit, ux is mostly daxim's bugs http://padre.perlide.org/trac/query?status​=accepted&status=assigned&status=n​ew&status=reopened&reporter=daxim
13:55 Hyppolit ux was unknown
13:55 Hyppolit ux is now mostly daxim's bugs http://padre.perlide.org/trac/query?status​=accepted&status=assigned&status=n​ew&status=reopened&reporter=daxim
13:55 kthakore that is like super huge!
13:55 kthakore I just want Padre
13:56 daxim subdirectory Padre
13:56 kthakore yeah I did that
13:56 kthakore thanks man
13:57 djsiegel daxim: would you be interested in doing some user testing with our support?
13:57 daxim what does this entail?
13:57 djsiegel daxim: you could work with our anthropologist to develop a script, and then sit down with some perl developers of different levels of experience and test Padre with them.
13:58 djsiegel Then you would deliver the findings to szabgab and the rest of the team with some recommendations.
13:58 szabgab how can I debug in monodevelop?
13:58 djsiegel szabgab: set a breakpoint by double-clicking in the line gutter
13:58 djsiegel then just run as usual
13:58 djsiegel make sure you;'re using MD 2.4 though
14:00 szabgab MD 2.4 ?
14:00 djsiegel MonoDevelop version 2.4
14:00 djsiegel in that PPA I gave you
14:00 szabgab oh this is 2.2.1
14:00 djsiegel they just did a major release with new workbench UI changes
14:00 szabgab I am glad that Padre has breakpoints at 0.66 already :)
14:01 daxim djsiegel, I don't want to
14:01 djsiegel daxim: why not?
14:01 szabgab even if cannot yet set them up front :(
14:01 daxim padre is low on my big list of things, and hunting down users to test with is too much a time sink
14:02 djsiegel ok, how about organizing others to do the testing?
14:02 daxim #padre, any takers?
14:02 djsiegel Is anyone interested in sitting down in person with some Perl developers to test Padre?
14:02 szabgab maybe it not you daxim who should be the contact for ux then?
14:03 szabgab djsiegel, you mean like with a real person?
14:03 djsiegel daxim should be your UX contact unless there's someone better :)
14:03 djsiegel yes, real people
14:03 djsiegel like at a perl meetup or conference.
14:03 * szabgab shrugs
14:03 szabgab :)
14:03 szabgab I might go to Python meeting and try with them :)
14:03 djsiegel that could work
14:04 szabgab of course I'd be happy to do such stuff but I wonder how much would that makes sense
14:04 kthakore szabgab: can you add File::Which to required deps for padre?
14:05 szabgab kthakore, why?
14:05 djsiegel szabgab: you wonder whether it makes sense to test your product with the people who will use it?
14:05 djsiegel szabgab: could it make more sense not to test it?
14:05 djsiegel szabgab: you will get some useful insights
14:05 szabgab I wonder if it makes sense if *I* do it
14:05 Sewi djsiegel: We're talking to those people...
14:05 kthakore szabgab: bah ...
14:06 djsiegel Sewi: how so?
14:06 kthakore szabgab: I get @INC error for File::Which
14:06 szabgab I am often watching people using padre, beginners
14:06 Sewi djsiegel: here
14:06 djsiegel szabgab: excellent
14:06 szabgab but it might be interesting to have ideas what specifically to look for
14:06 szabgab I am teaching Perl and using Padre in many cases
14:07 djsiegel Sewi: yeah, your IRC channel doesn't give you a realistic view of how people will actually use it. Bug reports don't help too much either.
14:07 djsiegel You need to see people using it in meatspace :)
14:07 * Sewi steps behind kthakore silently
14:07 djsiegel see their faces, see their body language
14:07 kthakore Sewi: yeah you guys are lossing about 1.5 MB in memory for no reason
14:07 kthakore Sewi: I suspect you perl destruct is not set
14:07 szabgab acking for File::Which
14:08 djsiegel szabgab: well, if you are interested, maybe Charline, our anthropologist, can make some recommendations for a test for you to run, then you could run it with some of your students?
14:08 kthakore Sewi: what is one module that is called at Padre start where I can set perl Destruct?
14:08 szabgab file::which is in the prereqs already
14:08 kthakore szabgab: bah
14:09 Hyppolit svn: r11788 | Sewi++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11788
14:09 Hyppolit silently put a commit bit on kthakore
14:09 Hyppolit subversion/
14:09 kthakore NOOOOOOOoooooOOooOOOoOOoooooooooooooo
14:09 szabgab hmm, I also thought he already had one
14:09 kthakore I have to commit now
14:09 kthakore szabgab: NEVER!
14:09 szabgab kthakore++
14:09 Sewi Yes :-)
14:09 kthakore Sewi: NEVER!
14:10 kthakore ok I go make stupid leak detect
14:10 kthakore ticket
14:10 szabgab djsiegel, working out that script would be a good first step for certain
14:10 Hyppolit svn: r11789 | Sewi++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/11789
14:10 Hyppolit Remove dup line - never believe in what users say :-)
14:10 Hyppolit subversion/
14:11 szabgab and then I could track down a student or two as I don't have any upcoming class any time soon
14:11 szabgab and I could run the same thing during YAPC::EU as well
14:11 szabgab that could be interesting :)
14:11 szabgab bunch of vi users getting their fingers broken using Padre :)
14:12 Hyppolit #961: Loosing about 1.5 MB in memory indirectly (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/961 ]
14:12 djsiegel szabgab: ok, let me go talk to charline for a moment
14:13 szabgab I need a title for my Perl 6 ish talk at the next Python meeting
14:13 szabgab djsiegel, ok
14:13 szabgab "Perl for the non believers"
14:13 daxim talk about Language X
14:13 daxim reveal it at the end
14:14 szabgab I can't give them "not your grandfathers Perl"    as I am too old for that :)
14:14 szabgab reveal what at the end?
14:14 szabgab that it is Perl ?
14:14 Sewi kthakore: Set perl destruct in Padre.pm
14:14 daxim yes
14:14 szabgab they know me :)
14:14 daxim I hooked the functional programmer's group at metalab that way, they were amazed that perl could do all that
14:14 szabgab but that could be a good plot :)
14:14 Sewi szabgab: You need to hide: Wear a phyton (or PHP) t-shirt there :-)
14:15 szabgab daxim, have your slides or examples?
14:15 szabgab "PHP rocks"
14:15 daxim hm, yes, let me put this in an archive
14:15 kthakore Sewi: is there an XS any palce?
14:15 kthakore Sewi: some XS that is always called?
14:16 Sewi kthakore: Not within Padre-source, but maybe within the dependency modules...
14:16 kthakore no ... that would suck
14:16 kthakore Sewi: ok I will use PP way it invloves a dep though
14:16 kthakore if it works we will get Wx to do it for us
14:16 Sewi :-)
14:16 djsiegel oh I want to see slides on Perl 6 if you have them
14:17 djsiegel I am a total PL weenie
14:17 kthakore Sewi: I need to set this before Wx is called
14:17 kthakore Sewi: where ist that?
14:18 Sewi In Padre.pm (calling Padre::Wx*), I think
14:19 szabgab djsiegel,  I have my training material up on the net
14:19 szabgab but there are way better ones
14:19 Sewi Maybe early within sub new
14:19 kthakore Padre->new is called first?
14:19 kthakore ok
14:19 szabgab djsiegel, for example see  http://www.jnthn.net/articles.shtml
14:21 charline joined #padre
14:21 Sewi Hi charline
14:22 charline szabgab: Hi.  I'm Charline Poirier, I am the user research programme lead
14:22 szabgab hi charline
14:22 charline szabgab:  David tells me that you are interested in usability testing
14:22 szabgab yep
14:23 charline What do you have in mind?
14:24 daxim he said you can write a script to low-cost test some users
14:24 charline Sure
14:24 charline What do you want to test
14:24 daxim padre is an IDE, so: perl developers
14:25 szabgab hoh I have no idea :)
14:25 szabgab I was hoping you will tell me :0
14:26 charline Well, what is the app you want to have tested?
14:26 szabgab I think we already have a bunch of ideas how to improve the IDE
14:26 szabgab let's go back to square one
14:26 kthakore oh ... crap
14:26 szabgab we are working on an IDE - Integrated Development Environment
14:26 kthakore Wx can't work with perl_destruct_level
14:26 kthakore Sewi: :(
14:27 szabgab that is mostly aimed at people writing code in the perl language
14:27 szabgab perl programming language
14:27 kthakore Sewi: ticket #961
14:27 Hyppolit #961: Loosing about 1.5 MB in memory indirectly (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/961 ]
14:27 szabgab many are beginners
14:27 kthakore Sewi: F&*K
14:27 szabgab many have lot of experience in other things but not in perl
14:27 szabgab and there are some that have a lot of experience in perl and write big applications
14:28 szabgab charline, that's about the  description of he product
14:28 szabgab and the users
14:29 charline To write a script you need to have some tasks.  Are we talking about development tasks?
14:29 szabgab we already (or still ?) have a lot of UI issues we know we want to solve / change
14:29 djsiegel szabgab: Maybe these UI issues would help us write the script?
14:29 szabgab what is a "script" in your terminology?
14:30 szabgab (as we also call the things we write normally scripts)
14:30 charline It is the test proper
14:30 szabgab and sometimes "programs"
14:30 szabgab or just "code"
14:30 szabgab charline,  a list of instructions ?
14:30 charline No, no, there are the tasks we want participants to try to do
14:31 szabgab can you show us a script of some other application?
14:31 charline To see if the technology let's them do it easily
14:31 charline Sure
14:31 szabgab e.g. have you worked with the monodevelop thing?
14:31 charline No
14:31 szabgab or some application that is similar to ours?
14:32 charline Not familiar with your app.  Done work with Launchpad,
14:32 charline Empathy
14:33 * szabgab looking up empathy
14:33 szabgab I understand what you say
14:33 szabgab :)
14:33 Sewi The problem using fresh users for testing an IDE might be the complexity of an IDE. It's no app that you could install, try and use 50% of the features after 5 minutes.
14:34 szabgab we would like to make sure that people who install Padre can write simple perl scripts out of the box
14:34 kthakore Sewi: the destruct level was already set
14:34 charline No, but you might be able to have an idea of the specific problems encountered by a new user
14:34 kthakore Sewi: ... but it still leaks
14:34 Sewi szabgab: "Write simple scripts" is the same in Padre like in any text editor.
14:35 szabgab let's try to define what we would like to achive for people who are new to Perl and for people who have used lots of Perl
14:35 szabgab in both cases people new to padre
14:35 szabgab Sewi, not exactly
14:35 Sewi "Trying out Padre" means working for hours or days with the app - like any other IDE (I tried)
14:36 szabgab charline, so I think we have two very different types of users
14:36 szabgab both new to Padre
14:36 szabgab one that knows the programming language and have used other editors or IDEs
14:36 szabgab and the other that is also new to the language
14:36 charline That could be interesting
14:37 szabgab and might or might not have used editors and IDEs before
14:37 wwe Maybe I can help you about fresh users. I have not much expirience with perl, I'm not a programmer at all. I'm technician who uses perl for system administration and some other tasks...
14:37 szabgab here you have a use case :)
14:38 Sewi szabgab: I think you missed one kind of users which is very important (like the two others): Users who use Padre (regulary) - Padre also has to be useable for them
14:38 wwe I play a bit with padre from time to time, most of the time I was usig EPIC till now. But want to switch because it's to slow on a start ans uses to much ressources.
14:38 szabgab charline, and to explain a bit more, Padre is just like Word for someone writing text
14:38 szabgab Sewi, right
14:39 charline I think if you have different types of participants with various experience level, that could be interesting
14:39 szabgab so while we would want it to be easy for the new users to use Padre we also have to take in account that, g-d forbid, some might stay with Padre and want to still use it
14:41 Hyppolit #961: Loosing about 1.5 MB in memory indirectly (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/961#comment:1 ]
14:41 charline Well, when you get the results of the usability testing, you can decide what strategy you want to have, and how you want the user experience to be like
14:45 charline szabgab:  to conduct some usability testing you would need 1. to define your audience - which you seem to have done at least preliminarily
14:46 charline 2.  to write a script/protocol that outlines the tasks that you will be asking participants to do during the test.  To do that, you need to  identify first the important tasks that everyone will have to do
14:47 charline and 2) where you suspect that people may have a problem or 3) things you are planning to change
14:48 charline 3.  You need to find a place to run it.  It takes about an hour to do.
14:50 szabgab charline, I'd be glad to see such script/protocol for some other project
14:50 szabgab just to get a feeling
14:51 wwe I found a bug. When Wx script is called from Padre the script window is no displayed (use Padre example scripts like 04_button_with_event.pl) If you change the run config to "use external window" everything works fine. The bigest problem is the perl process wich is sucessfully started and running. If you don't recognize that you can hit the "stop execution" b
14:51 charline OK.  Would you like me to email you something?
14:52 Sewi wwe: There might be a ticket for it (I don't remember if it was this or another Wx-using-script - problem).
14:52 Sewi Do you want to check and add your results?
14:52 Sewi trac?
14:52 Hyppolit trac is http://padre.perlide.org/trac and also http://padre.perlide.org/trac/register
14:53 wwe I did a search and didn't found anything. Maybe my search criteria was was not precise
14:53 szabgab charline, sure that would be good
14:53 szabgab szabgab@gmail.com
14:53 Sewi wwe:  Would you like to create a ticket for it?
14:54 charline Szabgab, OK I'll do that right away.
14:54 szabgab charline, it would be also worth to talk to Alias
14:54 szabgab but he is in .au
14:54 wwe no problem. just wanted to check if it's allready known...
14:54 szabgab and currently not around
14:54 szabgab he is our "Windows expert" ;)
14:54 szabgab most of the others are Linux users
14:55 Sewi wwe: If you'ld create a ticket for it, someone could verify and fix it :-)
14:55 charline szabgab,  I'll be happy to
14:56 szabgab charline, which time zone are you in?
14:56 charline I'm in London
14:56 wwe Sewi: I'm going to write a ticket.
14:57 Sewi wwe: Thanks, registration is open now
14:57 Sewi register?
14:57 Hyppolit register is http://padre.perlide.org/trac/register
14:58 wwe Sewi, Hyppolit Thank's I'm allready registered.
14:58 Sewi registration closed again
15:01 szabgab charline, so try to catch him in the early morning hours
15:01 szabgab he might be around then
15:05 charline How early?
15:06 szabgab he is in Australia
15:07 szabgab but he works really strange hours
15:07 Sewi He's in Australia and here and left the channel about 15:00 GMT yesterday
15:07 Sewi I wonder if he sleeps at all :-)
15:07 szabgab so just try to check if he is around
15:07 szabgab his alias is, well, Alias  :)
15:12 daxim szabgab, url coming per notice
15:14 wwe Sewi there is an error while creating a ticket: <OperationalError: database is locked> Any idea?
15:15 Hyppolit #962: Execution of Wx script is brocken on Windows (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/962 ]
15:15 wwe Ok, a minute late it worked fine...
15:15 szabgab danlucraft, thanks
15:15 szabgab err sorry
15:15 danlucraft :)
15:15 szabgab I mean daxim
15:15 danlucraft daxim: redirect!
15:21 Hyppolit #962: Execution of Wx script is brocken on Windows (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/962#comment:1 ]
15:27 * sjn found a "bug" in Padre o/
15:28 sjn Unrecognized character \xC2 in column 7 at t/30app_uris.t line 54.
15:28 sjn (this is from running my own code)
15:28 sjn I think the \xC2 character should be visible in Padre :)
15:28 sjn instead of just hidden away
15:28 * Sewi forwarding the DB error message to szabgab
15:46 szabgab sjn, hey, nice to see you around!
15:47 szabgab we will need a new version of the Rakudo * pdf for the community card
15:47 szabgab as it is not Q2 any more
15:47 szabgab and yo tell you, people just love the card
15:52 sjn nice :)
15:52 djsiegel left #padre
15:53 * sjn has always thought a little humour goes a long way when it comes to marketing :)
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17:57 danlucraft joined #padre
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19:23 pece joined #padre
20:22 garu cool, I'm still in the top10 committers :P
20:23 garu I'll see if I can beat tsee by the end of the year :D
20:25 szabgab garu, I am looking forward to that!
20:26 garu szabgab: hey, I heard the grant was approved, nice!
20:26 szabgab what ?
20:26 garu wasn't it?
20:26 szabgab it was not approved
20:26 garu oh
20:26 szabgab it was posted for consideration
20:26 garu aah
20:26 szabgab and my feeling is that there are just too many negative comments on it
20:27 garu szabgab: I wouldn't worry. It's a very bold request, that one
20:27 garu it's bound to get a lot of feedback
20:27 szabgab it will take a lot more time if it gets approved at all
20:27 garu I think this is a great thing, though, as it will let you mold it better
20:28 garu and make sure everyone gets whatever it is they're expecting
20:28 szabgab and the blog system is actually a bit broken and not all the submitted comment make it to the web site
20:28 garu (in results or reports)
20:28 szabgab we cant have that
20:28 garu yeah :(
20:28 szabgab as some people want TPF to be smaller
20:28 szabgab and do less than it does now
20:28 garu hmm
20:29 szabgab and not to give grants at all
20:29 garu what would it do with the money?
20:30 garu or should it not get money at all?
20:30 szabgab yep
20:30 szabgab maybe only to transfer to YAPCs
20:31 szabgab but I don't understand that whole point
20:31 szabgab anyway
20:31 szabgab I now have another thing to do:
20:31 szabgab I need to find lot of people to submit grant proposals to the current quarter
20:31 szabgab have you seen the call ?
20:32 szabgab garu?   http://news.perlfoundation.org/2010/0​7/2010q3-call-for-grant-proposal.html
20:33 Sewi What are your plans if it won't be approved?
20:34 garu szabgab: I'm working with kthakore on his grant for SDL Perl examples - games have a strong appeal attracting fresh blood to the language
20:36 szabgab garu, could you please make sure all the Perl hackers in SA know about the call for grant proposals?
20:37 szabgab As I guess the salaries are  lower there than in EU or USA, they can propose larger projects for the same amount of money
20:37 szabgab let's try to make sure there are lots of good grant proposals this time
20:37 szabgab Sewi, I am not sure yet, there were a few days when I though I give up on the whole thing but now I have renewed energies :)
20:38 szabgab and now I have to go a throw the left over water melon in the garbage, bbl
20:40 garu szabgab: no problem. but how would they deal with the pt<=>en thing?
20:41 kthakore garu: yell at them real slow until they get it
20:41 garu I'll propose myself as mediator, but there's only so much projects I can work with
20:41 garu kthakore: hahaha
20:41 kthakore garu: SDL++
20:42 garu kthakore: you should work on the SDL Plugin for Padre
20:42 garu it's been neglected for quite a whle
20:42 garu kthakore: any ideas on what should it do?
20:42 kthakore garu: I *should* do a lot of things
20:42 Sewi kthakore: You got a commit bit, try it yourself :-)
20:42 * Sewi hiding
20:42 kthakore garu: it should show SDL::Manual and SDL::Cookbook once it is done
20:42 kthakore Sewi: :p
20:42 kthakore Sewi: if I do padre now
20:42 kthakore Sewi: first will be that memory bug
20:43 kthakore Sewi: 1.5MB loss of memory is bad!
20:43 kthakore bad boy bad bad boy!
20:43 Sewi Yeah, but the Directory browser thing eats much more...
20:44 kthakore Sewi: bad boy!
20:44 garu Sewi: the dir browser is leaking?
20:44 Sewi Hey, it might be not my fault :-)
20:44 Sewi It's not really leaking, it's scanning your whole hard drive atm creating objects for each file or directory :-(
20:45 Sewi Okay, whole hard drive only if you got a symlink pointing upwards, otherwise the current dir and the project dir with all subs.
20:46 kthakore garu: no everything is leaking
20:46 garu ouch
20:46 szabgab garu, that might be a good thing to offer yourself as a mediator
20:46 kthakore see ticket #912
20:46 Hyppolit #912: Makefile.PL must remove obsolete files from previous versions (Win32 launcher) (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/912#comment:1 ]
20:46 kthakore oops
20:46 kthakore no not that one
20:46 szabgab though actually Alberto might understand a bit of your language :)
20:48 garu szabgab: who are the portuguese in TPF? Alberto? Jose Castro? anyone else?
20:48 kthakore see ticket #961
20:48 Hyppolit #961: Loosing about 1.5 MB in memory indirectly (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/961#comment:1 ]
20:48 kthakore yeah that is the one
20:48 kthakore garu: ^^
20:48 szabgab yep those two
20:48 szabgab not enough ?
20:48 kthakore garu: I think one of the XS modules is not doing it correct
20:48 garu szabgab: plenty :)
20:48 kthakore garu: ok good then tell them to vote for my pathetic proposal ;)
20:49 szabgab this might be an opportunity to get some of the .br people or SA people into the international Perl community
20:49 garu szabgab: this is a nice thing. If too many grants appear in portuguese, I'll ask them if I can just resubmit them in pt as they are
20:49 garu yup
20:49 garu I gotta create a blog in pt-br now
20:49 garu sigh
20:49 garu szabgab: I hate you :)
20:49 szabgab I guess Google translation works reasonably well these days :)
20:49 kthakore haha
20:50 szabgab garu, I love you too :)
20:50 kthakore o0
20:50 kthakore 0o
20:50 garu :P
20:50 kthakore OI!
20:50 kthakore don't lick my eye ball
20:50 garu kthakore: don't be jealous, now
20:50 kthakore it tickles
20:54 Sewi gn8
20:54 szabgab night &
20:59 garu g'night
21:36 burak joined #padre
21:45 burak hi. anyone got padre.exe crashing under windows with gcc?
22:03 kthakore no
22:04 kthakore burak: wat are u running?
22:04 kthakore burak: wat version
22:08 burak Active Perl 5.12.1 32bit gcc 3.4.5 Vista 32bit. padre.c from Padre 0.66. padre.exe crashes after compiling
22:16 burak padre.bat runs fine just the exe crashes

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