Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2011-02-28

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Time Nick Message
00:12 zenog jon: Sorry, would do that but I need to sleep now. WxPerl has a nice mailing list if you have questions ... &
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01:40 Hyppolit svn: r13850 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13850
01:40 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/fbp/
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02:22 Hyppolit svn: r13851 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13851
02:22 Hyppolit Adding a (really old) dep version for Data::Dumper for completeness
02:22 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/
02:22 Hyppolit svn: r13852 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13852
02:22 Hyppolit Adding the module skeleton
02:22 Hyppolit trunk/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/fbp/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/t/
02:34 Hyppolit svn: r13853 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13853
02:34 Hyppolit Completing more of the skeleton
02:34 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/lib/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/lib/Padre/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/lib/Padre/Plugin/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool​/lib/Padre/Plugin/ParserTool/
02:40 Hyppolit svn: r13854 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13854
02:40 Hyppolit Updated compatibility
02:40 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-FormBuilder/lib/Padre/Plugin/
02:41 Hyppolit svn: r13855 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13855
02:41 Hyppolit Updating compat
02:41 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-FormBuilder/lib/Padre/Plugin/
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06:45 Sewi gm
06:52 szabgab gm
06:53 szabgab El_Che: I know that // confuses our version of Scintilla but I thought it works well with the PPI highlighter
06:54 szabgab jon: you can try to just type in the wx related question and then someone who comes to the channel might be able to help, no promisis though :), the wxPerl mailing list might really be a better place to ask
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07:17 Hyppolit svn: r13856 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13856
07:17 Hyppolit move the test of the messages.pot to a separate test-file to be able to run it on head-less machines as well
07:17 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/t/
07:33 fenderson hi
07:33 fenderson szabgab:
07:33 fenderson i have notes for the last ticket we talked about
07:33 fenderson in the meeting
07:34 fenderson so i'll right it now and i'll go to the next one
07:36 szabgab I don't recall
07:36 szabgab but I'll see it in the ticket, right?
07:37 El_Che gm
07:37 fenderson right
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07:45 fenderson but it will take sometime cause i need to download the svn to my lenovo(the other computer) and then the padre dev also
07:46 fenderson some time *
07:46 fenderson i got a problem
07:46 fenderson i've downloaded the svn
07:47 fenderson but when i right svn co http/perlide.org/padre/trunk padre
07:48 fenderson it says svn: OPTIONS of 'http://perlider.org/padre/trunk 200 ok (http://perlide.org)
07:48 Sewi maybe you have a typo in the URL?
07:48 Sewi svn?
07:48 Hyppolit svn is http://padre.perlide.org/tr​ac/wiki/DownloadRepository and also http://svn.perlide.org/padre/trunk/ and also http://padre.perlide.org/trac/browser
07:48 fenderson http://perlide.org/padre/trunk padre*
07:49 Sewi no
07:49 Sewi svn.perlide.org
07:49 El_Che svn co http://svn.perlide.org/padre/trunk
07:49 fenderson ok i'll try it
07:49 fenderson El_Che: Sewi  thanks :D
07:50 fenderson its working
07:52 fenderson downloading the modules for padre dev
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07:57 fenderson after i did Makefile.PL
07:57 fenderson make
07:57 fenderson and make test
07:58 fenderson i run dev
07:58 fenderson and it said
07:58 fenderson ORLite version 1.48 required--this is only version1.4-
07:59 Hyppolit svn: r13857 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13857
07:59 Hyppolit more tests for messages.pot
07:59 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/t/
07:59 fenderson i think  i never got that msg in my computer
07:59 Sewi Seems you have ORLite Version 1.4 but need 1.48 :-)
07:59 fenderson can it be that ubuntu 10.04 comes with ORLite 1.4
07:59 fenderson and ubuntu 10.10 comes with 1.48
07:59 fenderson ?
08:00 Hyppolit svn: r13858 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13858
08:00 Hyppolit restrict the usage of xgettext to a specific version, make sure output is sorted in the hope that it will generate less changes in the file
08:00 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
08:00 Sewi ORLite is a Perl modul
08:01 Hyppolit svn: r13859 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13859
08:01 Hyppolit update messages.pot on the svn server using xgettext 0.17
08:01 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/share/locale/
08:02 fenderson yay its working
08:02 fenderson now i can run the bug cases and report
08:02 fenderson :D
08:03 fenderson Sewi: thank for your help :)
08:03 fenderson Sewi: ++
08:03 fenderson Sewi++
08:03 fenderson how do i do it?
08:05 Hyppolit #1141: Project browser does not default to the default directory in the configuration (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/1141 ]
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08:06 Hyppolit svn: r13860 | claudio++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13860
08:06 Hyppolit Fix Project Browser bug, #1141
08:06 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/
08:07 Hyppolit #1132: missing strings in 'messages.pot' (closed defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/t​rac/ticket/1132#comment:4 ]
08:07 Hyppolit #1141: Project browser does not default to the default directory in the configuration (closed defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/t​rac/ticket/1141#comment:1 ]
08:24 Hyppolit svn: r13861 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13861
08:24 Hyppolit Bump the dependency
08:24 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-FormBuilder/
08:38 Hyppolit svn: r13862 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13862
08:38 Hyppolit Update the messages.pot file
08:38 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/share/locale/
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08:47 Hyppolit svn: r13863 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13863
08:47 Hyppolit Bug fixes so that preview works
08:47 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-FormBuilder/lib/Padre/Plugin/
09:07 Hyppolit svn: r13864 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13864
09:07 Hyppolit Basic ParserTool plugin completed
09:07 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/lib/Padre/Plugin/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool​/lib/Padre/Plugin/ParserTool/
09:08 Hyppolit svn: r13865 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13865
09:08 Hyppolit add another help item. This time to the startup_files option
09:08 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/
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09:33 szabgab pastebot?
09:33 szabgab paste?
09:33 szabgab Hyppolit?
09:33 Hyppolit Hyppolit is a bot currently running version 0.07
09:33 Hyppolit My master is szabgab.
09:33 szabgab hmm
09:36 szabgab Hyppolit: pastebot is http://www.pastebot.net/
09:36 Hyppolit pastebot was unknown
09:36 Hyppolit pastebot is now http://www.pastebot.net/
09:38 szabgab Getty: ping
09:38 szabgab Getty: have you used Perl with Pidgin?
09:39 szabgab I just compiled pidgin and get this: http://www.pastebot.net/paste/rF9MhM6CWDf/  when trying to use Purple
10:26 El_Che anyone know why module builds seems to ignore pod parts withing a =begin html  -> =end html block?
10:27 El_Che Module::Build I mean
10:36 El_Che OK, probably the code is there, but the converted man page ignores it
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10:56 Hyppolit #272: print option does not work (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/272#comment:2 ]
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11:16 waxhead_droid eveningso what do we do about the indexing issue on pause?
11:21 szabgab waxhead_droid: I did not have time to deal with it but as I can see on http://search.cpan.org/dist/Padre/
11:21 szabgab it does not mantion the problem
11:22 waxhead_droid oh, I haven't checked cpan.. so 0.82 is showing up?
11:22 szabgab and   cpan Padre finds 0.82   I am not sure what happend
11:22 waxhead_droid cool. that's good then
11:22 szabgab and Steffen fixed it in the trunk so this should go away next time
11:23 waxhead_droid so when do we want to branch for the next release? :-)
11:24 szabgab fenderson: next time please add more details to your bug report/update (e.g. the version of Padre where you encounter the issue)
11:24 szabgab waxhead_droid: what do you suggest?
11:26 szabgab the lovely thing is that I can use the version from the release branch but the one on trunk crashes on start-up (on suse)
11:27 waxhead_droid I don't know really, we've always just gone with; when the next version is ready or a major bug is fixed.
11:28 waxhead_droid why can't you use the tagged version?
11:28 szabgab I can I guess
11:28 szabgab but I'd like to figure out why do I get segfault on trunk
11:28 szabgab that's not good :*(
11:29 szabgab lseek(0, 0, SEEK_CUR)                   = -1 ESPIPE (Illegal seek)
11:29 szabgab is what I get in strace
11:29 szabgab 3 rimes
11:29 szabgab times
11:29 waxhead_droid I'm not going to use 'release' next time
11:29 szabgab and then      brk(0x34bd000)                          = 0x34bd000
11:29 szabgab several times (maybe 100 or 200)
11:30 waxhead_droid what version of Perl?
11:30 szabgab 5.10.0
11:30 szabgab 0.82 works, trunk segfaults
11:30 waxhead_droid that's your problem. the branch should crash too
11:31 waxhead_droid it did for me until I upgraded to 5.10.1
11:33 waxhead_droid perlbrew 5.10.1
11:35 szabgab trunk is crashing on that machine starting from r13820
11:35 Hyppolit Changeset #13820 http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13820
11:39 waxhead_droid how do you know that? I'm curious
11:43 waxhead_droid ok, time to go...
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11:59 Getty szabgab: not yet
11:59 Getty szabgab: but i saw "outside" scripts, perl scripts that used the pidgin engine todo stuff
12:00 Getty (so not inside of pidgin)
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12:08 Hyppolit svn: r13866 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13866
12:08 Hyppolit Regenerating the dialog with the improved FBP::Perl 0.18
12:08 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool/fbp/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-ParserTool​/lib/Padre/Plugin/ParserTool/
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12:11 Alias Yo
12:11 Alias Made a big step fowards today
12:12 Alias Managed to get FBP::Perl (and thus the wxFormBuilder plugin) generating properly nesting code
12:12 Alias So you can make big complicated dialogs now, like the Preferences dialog
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12:25 fenderson szabgab:
12:25 fenderson tell me, the "Ctrl-Alt-S (Save Session) backgrounds the window" defect
12:26 fenderson was on ubuntu 10.10 padre 0.83?
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13:12 szabgab fenderson: which ticket?
13:22 Hyppolit #1142: crash on startup on Suse (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/1142 ]
13:26 fenderson #663
13:26 Hyppolit #663: Rewritten Win32 launcher (accepted enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/663#comment:5 ]
13:32 szabgab fenderson: I don't see my name mentioned there, why do you ask?
13:32 szabgab and why do you think I remember?
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14:05 fenderson i didnt think you remember thats why i told you whice ticket
14:05 fenderson and reported that ticket
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14:12 fenderson you reported*
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14:15 szabgab fenderson: I might be very tired but I don't see my name on #663, are you sure about the ticket number?
14:15 Hyppolit #663: Rewritten Win32 launcher (accepted enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/663#comment:5 ]
14:16 fenderson * ← Previous Ticket     * Back to Query     * Next Ticket →  Ticket #633 (new defect)  Opened 17 months ago  Last modified 12 months ago Ctrl-Alt-S (Save Session) backgrounds the window Reported by: szabgab Owned by:  Priority: major Milestone:  Component: editor Version: trunk
14:16 Hyppolit #633: Ctrl-Alt-S (Save Session) backgrounds the window (new defect) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/633#comment:2 ]
14:16 fenderson szabgab:
14:17 szabgab that's a different number though
14:18 szabgab the ticket says  Ubuntu 9.04
14:21 fenderson sorry my mistake
14:21 fenderson anyway
14:21 fenderson i'm working with 10.10 and there is no problem
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14:22 szabgab coment on the ticket and then I think you can close it
14:28 fenderson ok
14:28 fenderson can you challenge me more?
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14:32 szabgab fenderson: challenge you?
14:32 fenderson you
14:32 szabgab I know I am
14:32 fenderson i want to learn more
14:32 fenderson i feel like i'm not progressing like i did last week
14:33 szabgab I feel the same
14:33 szabgab but I would like to see the things we started done
14:33 fenderson ok i want to change that
14:33 szabgab look at http://padre.perlide.org/tr​ac/wiki/PreReleaseChecklist
14:34 szabgab look at the cases at the upper part (mostly by zenog)
14:34 szabgab and the lower part by you
14:34 szabgab we need better test-cases
14:34 szabgab can you see the difference betwee how zenog wrote and how you did?
14:34 fenderson i dont get 1 thing
14:35 szabgab you are lucky then
14:35 fenderson XD
14:35 szabgab what is that 1 thing you don't get?
14:35 fenderson the test cases should tell people what to do or should it explain them how things work
14:35 szabgab it should tell them what to do
14:35 szabgab and then what to check
14:35 szabgab e.g. TODO list:
14:36 fenderson what do you mean by what to check
14:36 szabgab Open the TODO list window by clicking View/To-Do list
14:36 szabgab type inthe file   # TO DO bla
14:36 fenderson to check if things work as they should
14:36 szabgab check if bla appears in the TODO list
14:37 szabgab change the regex in the configuration of the TODO list (describe it how!)
14:37 szabgab and to what to change
14:37 szabgab check if the bla has disappeard?
14:37 szabgab you see I wrote down a bunch of steps in 1 minute
14:38 szabgab I expect such, and longer and better descriptions
14:38 szabgab was the above clear?
14:38 fenderson ok so thats what i'll do
14:39 fenderson yea perfectly clear
14:39 szabgab so take one of the entries you wrote and improve it *in the wiki*
14:39 szabgab so we can see it
14:39 szabgab then tell us about it and go on to the next one
14:39 fenderson ok by tomorrow morning you'll have it done
14:39 szabgab no
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14:40 szabgab I want the first one in 20 minutes
14:40 szabgab and the next one 20 minutes later
14:40 szabgab and I am quite "large" in that as it could be done in 2-3 minutes as well
14:40 fenderson ok
14:40 szabgab but I would like you to actually step through the things
14:41 szabgab in 2 hours from now you could fix all the entries you added to that page
14:41 szabgab and then we can talk about the rest
14:41 szabgab the rest of the day
14:43 fenderson when i open the to do list
14:45 fenderson there are 2 boxes
14:45 fenderson what the lower one for?
14:46 szabgab I don't know, I have only one box
14:47 fenderson the one box
14:47 fenderson is actually 2
14:48 fenderson and i think its not working or i just dont know how to work with that
14:54 szabgab so ask around here and on the mailing list
14:55 szabgab or check the documentation (if there is) or check the source code
14:56 fenderson what can i find the source code?
14:57 fenderson where*
15:01 szabgab this is the time I think that you need to search for it
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15:14 fenderson i cant find the list how options of "View" on padre's source code
15:24 szabgab have you found the source code of padre?
15:25 szabgab if yes then use the find in files feature
15:28 fenderson yea
15:28 fenderson cd padre/Padre
15:28 fenderson i dont know that feature
15:30 fenderson and i dont see something that explains how to use it in google
15:33 szabgab its a menu option in Padre
15:33 szabgab Searc/Find in Files
15:33 szabgab Search/Find in Files
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15:43 fenderson found it
15:44 fenderson sub show_todo
15:53 El_Che fenderson: in case you don't know ack, it's pretty cool when looking for pieces of code
15:56 fenderson yea it is
15:57 fenderson i think i'm going to do a test case of this as well, but before i do it i have to check if there is a one
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15:59 rindolf Hi all.
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16:25 fenderson hi
16:30 rindolf Hi fenderson
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18:26 Jagdwurst hallo
18:27 Jagdwurst does anyone go to CeBIT like last year?
18:28 szabgab hi Jagdwurst
18:28 szabgab we don't have a booth there but some Perleres will be there
18:29 szabgab I think zeno is at some university booth and Renee will visit on one of the days, I think he has a talk
18:29 Jagdwurst :(
18:29 szabgab yeah, last year we got the booth free of charge
18:29 szabgab this year it would have cost us I think about 10K Euro
18:29 szabgab and the Perl Ecosystem Group does not have that kind of money yet
18:29 Jagdwurst oh,  10K?
18:30 szabgab yeah I think they charge about 700 Euro / sqm
18:33 Jagdwurst szabgab: will you visit it, this year?
18:48 szabgab Jagdwurst: nope
18:48 szabgab but I am planning to be at the LinuxTag in Berlin
18:49 Jagdwurst @_@
18:50 szabgab Jagdwurst: where are you from ?
18:51 Jagdwurst szabgab: iam in Hannover now
18:51 Jagdwurst szabgab: but working  in other city
18:51 Jagdwurst szabgab: will goto CeBIT on saturday
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19:14 andi Hi! I'm having some trouble with Padre 0.82 / Strawberry Perl 5.10.1.4 under Win7 x64. I installed from cpan, everything seemed to install fine, but the DocBrowser is somewhat broken. It does not display any content.
19:16 andi I'm not sure if I shall open a bug ticket. It's a fresh install of Strawberry (x86). Also tried the Padre v0.63 standalone install bundled with Strawberry -> works, but same DocBrowser issue when upgrading to 0.82 via cpan
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19:22 El_Che andi:
19:22 El_Che damn
19:39 szabgab it would be so good if my network connection did not fluctuate and I 'd get alerts when people join the channel and start writing
19:39 szabgab or if we managed to have more people around keep chatting :)
19:44 El_Che szabgab: run irssi
19:44 El_Che it does that and you can script it in perl
19:45 Hyppolit svn: r13867 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/13867
19:45 Hyppolit Update the messages.pot file
19:45 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/share/locale/
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19:46 andi I'm back :)
19:47 szabgab andi: :)
19:47 szabgab El_Che: I run irssi on the remote machine
19:47 szabgab andi: so I guess you tried F1
19:47 szabgab try F2 :)
19:47 andi exactly
19:49 andi lol
19:49 szabgab we have some issues with F1 I think
19:49 andi this actually does something
19:49 szabgab we have two help systems, neither working perfectly :)
19:50 andi good to know :) I thought my installation of padre was skrewed
19:50 szabgab probably not
19:50 szabgab we just have to fix this issue
19:51 szabgab which reminds me I should ask fenderson what's up?
19:52 szabgab andi: want to help us?
19:52 andi I'm a bloody beginner on perl stuff and just discovered padre as a great IDE with even debugging support.
19:52 szabgab khm, that's another sore point :(
19:53 szabgab I am just about to send out a call for people with little or no perl background who would like to get involved
19:54 szabgab I like it when time wraps and people answer my call before I make it :)
19:54 szabgab unfortunatelly usually it does not happen even after I make the call :)
19:54 andi really? I guessed that beginner's questions and experiences contains lots of redundant stuff and false bug reports
19:55 szabgab beginner questions show us where we need to improve
19:56 szabgab the experts can fix it for themselves
19:57 andi ok, then you've just found an ultimate beginner. just started coding in perl yesterday :)
19:58 szabgab great :)
19:58 szabgab why did you start coding in Perl?
19:58 andi I want to do some algorithm prototyping
19:58 andi and my collegue proposed perl
19:59 szabgab nice
19:59 szabgab what kind of work do you do?
20:00 andi scientific computing in general
20:00 szabgab at a university or company?
20:00 andi my actual focus is some graph theory involved in circuit layouting
20:01 andi i've got a par time job at a research institute and the other half of my time i spend at the univerisity for my phd
20:01 szabgab there was a good book about algorithms in perl but it is several years old
20:01 andi I just got myself a pdf of "Modern Perl"
20:02 szabgab that's certainly good to have and read
20:02 andi but not a good starting point :)
20:02 szabgab not really
20:03 andi I looked through "learning perl" at a local book store but it did not contain enough in depth info for me
20:04 andi and there is "Programming Perl" at a really tempting price, but it looks somewhat outdated
20:04 szabgab you might want to take a look at Moose
20:04 Steffen It is.
20:04 szabgab for  object oriented code
20:04 Steffen For a fun book that doesn't teach you much in terms of current best practices, but is simply a joy to read, check out Higher Order Perl.
20:05 Steffen Not really an introductory book, but it has a section with basics.
20:05 Steffen And it is available as a PDF for free (officially).
20:05 szabgab Steffen: btw do you know what happened with the CPAN upload of Padre?
20:05 Steffen It didn't get indexed.
20:05 Steffen Because it contained a package that is part of MakeMaker.
20:05 Steffen It needs a re-release.
20:05 Steffen As I said yesterday.
20:05 szabgab so how can people install it using cpan?
20:05 Steffen I fixed the code.
20:06 Steffen install P/PLAVENDER/Padre-0.82.tar.gz
20:06 szabgab and why does search.cpan not complain about it?
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20:06 szabgab i installed it using    cpan Padre
20:06 Steffen Really?
20:06 Steffen Odd.
20:06 szabgab my question was how come people can install it
20:06 Steffen Then something fishy happened.
20:06 szabgab maybe Alias did something?
20:06 Steffen Check the 02packages... file to see if it's in there for the usual Padre namespaces.
20:06 Steffen Doubtful.
20:06 Steffen Nothing he could do.
20:07 szabgab andi: so if you would like to help we would be happy just with general feedback
20:07 szabgab things you were expecting but are not there
20:08 szabgab and if you'd like to give some more formal help then we have just recently started an effor to do regular manual testing for Padre, before releases
20:08 szabgab Steffen: and I guess andi installed the same way
20:09 andi jep, just did a "install Padre" with a "force notest install IPC::Run" just before
20:09 szabgab yeah, that module is problematic
20:10 andi and maybe "install Alien::wxWidgets" and "install Wx", but not sure about that. I tried so many ways to install it today... including activepearl
20:10 Steffen andi: What's your PhD's subject?
20:11 andi it's on model order reduction in electric field simulation
20:12 Steffen Ah, nice!
20:14 Steffen andi: That book I mentioned is at http://hop.perl.plover.com/
20:15 andi jep, I just got it. thanks!
20:16 andi but looks pretty advanced...
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20:16 Steffen I guess so.
20:16 Steffen Probably depends on what kind of languages you already know.
20:17 andi mostly c++
20:17 Steffen The algorithms book Gabor mentioned is called "Mastering Algorithms with Perl" by Orwant et al and was released in 1999.
20:17 andi and a bit of java
20:17 Steffen That's not horrible for starters.
20:18 Steffen The algorithms book is useful, but has some pretty dated style./
20:19 Steffen There's also chromatic's "Modern Perl", but I haven't read it. I don't know the exact level of it, but I would assume it's an easier read than Higher Order Perl.
20:19 Steffen And it's more recent in terms of style.
20:19 andi that's odd: google pointed me directly to a pdf version of "mastering..."
20:20 Steffen That's likely illegal :)
20:20 Steffen Though Modern Perl is also legally available as a PDF (just like Higher Order Perl)
20:20 Steffen for free, too.
20:20 andi sure. but i didn't expect such a link under the top 10 search results
20:21 Steffen True.
20:21 Steffen So at least you can skim the books a bit to see if they float your boat.
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20:23 andi ...and I probably won't print out 700 pages...
20:24 szabgab I remember back when I was in school I did not want to pay for some book so I xerox-ed it
20:24 szabgab and thus paid more than if I bough the original
20:25 szabgab so now I have tons of books I bought and have no time to read them :)
20:25 Steffen You can buy both on dead tree.
20:26 andi :)
20:26 andi the mastering book looks nice, it even has a dedicated graphs chapter involving the Graph module
20:27 Steffen (with old style)
20:27 andi what do you mean by that?
20:27 Steffen It's really quite dated.
20:27 andi I don't know anything about the progression of perl
20:28 Steffen Hmm.
20:28 andi just that there was perl 3, 4, 5.6, etc.
20:28 Steffen Consider C++ that is so old that people didn't use the STL because it was still in flux :)
20:28 andi :)
20:28 Steffen Or C++ that eschews references altogether.
20:29 Steffen Though I have seen people debate that.
20:29 andi I got the first edition of stroustrups book and then was really disappointed that no compiler available at that time had a proper implementation of the stl
20:29 Steffen I have to admit that I was disappointed with that book overall.
20:30 Steffen Anyway. Mastering... isn't bad. Just make sure you take a look at some more recent stuff.
20:30 Steffen *more recent stuff, too.
20:32 andi I was at school back then (1998 i think). no internet. no knownledge of unix/linux/gcc. just the only compiler i could afford a student's license of: watcom c/c++ 11.0
20:33 andi but tell me - is there any reference book you can recommend?
20:33 Steffen Sadly, *the* reference is still Programming Perl. But it's also really outdated.
20:33 andi one that explains references of whatever, multidim. arrays, etc.
20:34 Steffen It just doesn't pay to write references, it seems.
20:34 Steffen Perl comes with thousands of pages of manuals.
20:34 Steffen Which vary in quality and can be hard to navifate.
20:34 Steffen *navigate
20:34 Steffen but work okay as a reference.
20:34 andi manpages don't teach me good programming practice
20:34 Steffen "perldoc perlreftut"
20:35 Steffen No. That's why they can only be a companion to a teaching book.
20:35 Steffen as opposed to a reference book.
20:35 Steffen IMO, the Stroustrup would be a horrible reference.
20:35 rindolf andi: do you want Perl Best Practices?
20:35 Steffen No.
20:35 andi my biggest question at the moment is: in what cases does perl create a _copy_ of a function argument / when to use references to speed up things
20:36 Steffen Well. Perl flattens sub arguments to a list.
20:36 andi Stroustrup was the only C++ book I of at that time.
20:36 andi +knew
20:36 El_Che andi: I recently bought "Mastering Algorithms with Perl", it looks impressing
20:36 Steffen So if you are going pass an array or hash, the only way to pass that exact thing is to pass a reference to them.
20:37 Steffen Whereas if you pass them literally, their elements will be flattened into aforementioned list (available as @_ in the function)
20:37 andi and if I pass a Graph?
20:37 Steffen It's an object and as such in Perl, it is a reference.
20:37 andi not even a swallow copy?
20:37 Steffen Perl objects are references (to anything you like) that have a class name attached.
20:38 Steffen The reference will be copied. The referenced object not.
20:39 Steffen Don't confuse Perl references with C++ references. They don't have a whole lot in common.
20:39 Steffen Think of them more like an auto_ptr.
20:40 andi ok. that's good news.
20:40 Steffen There are some rare cases when you can actually see true aliasing in Perl that is similar to C++ references. But don't worry about that now.
20:46 El_Che andi: if you like Addision-Wesley Effective C++ (or Java) you'll like Effective Perl from the same series
20:47 El_Che http://www.effectiveperlprogramming.com/
20:47 El_Che not a tutorial but a tour up to date of best practices
20:47 El_Che tour of
20:50 rindolf El_Che: by bdfoy and merlyn?
20:51 El_Che brian, joseph hall and joshia mcadams
20:52 andi looks beginner-friendly :)
20:52 Steffen El_Che, good one!
20:55 szabgab El_Che:  we will need a list of recommended perl books and then ake sure we have them at the booth
20:59 El_Che yeah, I also bought more that I could actually read because of time, but I made time for Modern Perl and Effective Perl
21:00 El_Che chromatic book about testing was also a nice read
21:03 Steffen citing #p5p: <leont> autarch++# perlootut
21:04 Steffen andi, i.e. if you take a look at the development version of perl, you will find a perlootut man page written by a very good writer.
21:04 Steffen (OO tutorial)
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21:07 andi ok, guys, thanks very much for your help. you gave me a good boost for my beginning experience!
21:08 Steffen You're very welcome!
21:09 andi i'll give you feedback on padre as soon as i run into something noteworthy
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21:13 andi see you later
21:14 El_Che bye!
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