Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2011-05-22

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09:06 Sewi Getty: Ever tried Mouse?
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12:59 Getty Sewi: ??!?!?! why should I? I use Moo and Moose, Mouse is a deadend concept in my eyes, and i totally have no clue why you ask me this...
13:00 El_Che hey
13:00 El_Che Mouse is pretty cool
13:00 El_Che I use it when I don't use class introspection and when start-up time matters
13:00 El_Che like cli application
13:05 Alias Or when you want to debug
13:05 Alias Since it does most of it's stuff in XS now so it's actually debuggable
13:06 El_Che and it's fast
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13:13 Alias Yup, I've ditched Moose for Mouse most places now
13:13 Alias Way smaller, faster and debuggable, and I don't use the crazy advanced stuff from Moose anyway
13:17 El_Che I use mother on the fly generation for repetitive code
13:17 El_Che like $meta->add_method stuff in a begin block
13:25 Getty Alias: if you minimum do AnyMoose <shiver> then its ok, then people can use the stuff in the Moose env clean
13:32 El_Che You can just use Moose and decide to so a s/Moose/Mouse/ at the end
13:33 Getty El_Che: ???!!
13:33 Getty El_Che: AnyMoose handles that for you, and no, i dont replace inside of my CPAN distributions ;) i produce mostly code for CPAN
13:34 El_Che you may decide to have less dependencies
13:34 El_Che and with Mouse you leave the door open for Moose
13:35 El_Che I guess it will get faster at startup in the future
13:36 Alias AnyMoose adds more dependnecies
13:38 Getty i use Moo for "low level" stuff but then i avoid meta totally
13:38 Getty i mean i cant do it anyway ;)
13:39 Getty Text::Tweet and Text::Keywords for example i made with Moo to not get Moose requirement
13:46 El_Che so, Mouse is too heavy for you?
13:47 Getty Mouse only makes sense if you use it in combination with AnyMoose, and i personal think that concept is not cool, so i prefer to go even more low level, Moo is a good path in my eyes, but its fresh and new
13:48 El_Che I use it without AnyMoose and it's feels ok
13:49 El_Che you mean for libs when people are already using Moose?
13:49 El_Che so they end up loading Mouse and Moose?
13:49 Getty AnyMoose loads Moose into the play if its anyway in the play
13:49 Getty so its always ok
13:49 El_Che that is bad, but I don't see the difference between people loading Moo and Moose at the same time
13:50 Getty Moose people get Moose, Mouse people get Mouse
13:50 Getty mh?
13:50 El_Che when I write a command line unix app, I want by example everyone to use mouse
13:50 Getty why satisfy less people if you can satisfy more without changing what you get?
13:50 El_Che otherwise it takes to long to even load an help screen
13:50 El_Che too
13:51 Getty aehm, if you use AnyMoose then it will be Mouse on every load if its your App:: ?!
13:51 Getty why it should load Moose if there is no Moose loaded around?
13:51 Getty you should check into AnyMoose really
13:51 El_Che so let me get this
13:51 Getty if you dont use AnyMoose is just like "i want to definitly exclude all Moose users cause they suck"
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13:51 Getty i mean, its an opinion ;)
13:51 El_Che I put "use AnyMoose"
13:51 Getty checkout the docs on it
13:51 El_Che but I want Mouse
13:52 Getty i'm not a 100% pro on it, but thats the concept overall
13:52 El_Che wouldn't it load Moose *first* if installed?
13:52 El_Che in this specifically case it would be ok the other way round
13:52 Getty in my understandment it shouldnt do it, if noone else uses it in the env
13:53 Getty # uses Moose if it's loaded or demanded, Mouse otherwise
13:53 Getty see
13:53 El_Che When I checked the docs it was "Load Mouse only if Moose is not there"
13:53 Getty first comment in the synopsis
13:53 Getty "loaded or demanded"
13:53 El_Che anyway, don't get me wrong, I use Moose fairly often
13:53 Getty not "just on harddisc"
13:53 Getty yeah, thats why i dont get why you fight against AnyMoose ;)
13:54 Getty especially if you use Mouse AND Moose
13:54 Getty then you are a 100% candidate for AnyMoose
13:54 El_Che and I see Mouse more as growing pains until Moose gets a fast startup time or a more layered loading system
13:55 Getty whatever
13:55 Getty i cant say i care, cause i have no clue why i should care about that startup time i have once every month
13:55 Getty you are supposed to work "steady" in perl, or as i often describe it: you dont start in bash a for loop to start a perl 1000 times
13:56 Getty you make a perl that executes code 1000 time
13:57 El_Che it depends on the application
13:57 Getty not really, but it depends on the distribution of it, yes
13:57 El_Che webapps, I don't care about startup
13:57 Getty if you make a "tool" for user, then yes, its a bit sucky if it takes some sec to startup and show help
13:58 El_Che but I care if the utily runs for a second while the startup is longer
13:58 Getty but i only work in perl in specific product context, i use App:: instead of call the script of it
13:58 El_Che and a daemon for that is really overkill
13:58 Getty depends on the distribution you want, yes
13:58 Getty i always do daemons
13:58 Getty in the productive environments
13:58 Getty my App::'s i make are always prepared to just be included in other Perl scripts
13:59 El_Che in the solaris world we have a lot of perl running dtrace scripts
13:59 Getty this way i assure that its usable for CLI user and Perl user, but yes, i dont give much about the 1-2 sec. startup time
13:59 Getty irgs <makecross>
13:59 Getty yeah in the stoneage they used mod_perl
13:59 Getty ;)
13:59 Getty we are talking about totally different target groups it seems :)
13:59 El_Che you are excluding common perl usages because you don't use those
14:00 Getty why i do so?
14:00 Getty my personal products and the products i make for customers are not seen by anyone
14:00 El_Che that's ok, I am only saying that the requirements vary
14:00 Getty true, i dont deny that
14:01 El_Che perl is faster than python and ruby, so that's why it's broadly used in UNIX cli program's
14:01 Getty thats why i say i accept Mouse, cause it is a solution for a problem <point>, in combination with AnyMoose i even dont need to care really
14:01 El_Che of course, we could go the C/C++ way, but often perl is pretty fast
14:01 Getty yeah, and?
14:02 El_Che so in those cases you know you'll not be using Moose but Mouse
14:02 El_Che so the choice is not really relevant
14:02 Getty you mean AnyMoose? ;)
14:02 El_Che in some case you prefer a non-running app than a slow-startup app
14:02 Getty as said: in the "AnyMoose" case, i try to use Moo, cause i believe in this concept, its just a choice
14:03 Getty ?!?!
14:03 Getty wait
14:03 Getty you mean its better to have no app then having a slow startup? ;) i dont think you wanted to say that
14:04 Getty btw, there is now MouseX::POE ;) just a sidenote for you Mouse fans ;)
14:04 El_Che You need the right dependencies like every application on cpan
14:04 El_Che I kind of agree with the Moose developers on that one
14:05 El_Che if you start needing *X packages, move to Moose for that project
14:05 Getty which i do in all my products
14:05 Getty i have a huge stack of standard MooseX modules i use
14:05 El_Che the only thing I am saying is that I *am* a huge Moose fan, but sadly it's not there yet for all the perl usages out there
14:06 Getty also i often tend to use Declare magic for stuff, or define new meta functions just for the project
14:06 Getty and what should i change now in my life? ;)
14:06 El_Che you should stay happy :)
14:07 Getty yeah, thats why i use Moose and Moo :) they make me happy
14:07 El_Che I need to recheck Moo, but last time I checked it look more of a anti-Moose reaction
14:07 Getty you must also understand that my complete activity on Perl is based on the fact that i felt in love with Perl cause of Moose (and POE)
14:07 Getty El_Che: OH! no no...
14:07 El_Che we look similar, but we don't want to be 100% compatible because they are wrong
14:08 Getty El_Che: its a mst project
14:08 El_Che things change of course
14:08 Getty El_Che: its a different approach then AnyMoose, and i think its a better one, but we will see how it comes out, Moo is still in grow
14:08 El_Che anyway, the Moose guys posted a clarification about all these project in response to a blog post of mine :)
14:08 Getty El_Che: but its useable, it gives the base base base Moose (so definitly much less then Mouse) for a very cheap price requirement-wise
14:09 Getty (and its ownage fast)
14:09 El_Che http://blog.moose.perl.org/201​1/01/the-moose-ecosystem.html
14:09 Getty yeah saw that one
14:10 Getty and it just says what i say ;)
14:10 Getty its nto Anti-Moose
14:10 Getty Moo is also part of the ecosystem and its not evil to try it out
14:11 Getty you just need to accept that it has just started and you shouldnt see it as real "enemy" featurewise against Mouse if you just take it "as lib-user"
14:11 Getty but i like to support projects and libs that i think are the right concept, thats why i try to use Moose/Moo
14:11 Getty someone must do it, so that Moo can get more developed
14:12 El_Che Beside Mono I don't have M* ennemies :)
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14:17 Getty El_Che: a little bit of "competition" is always good :)
14:18 Getty El_Che: its the engine of innovation :)
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16:40 Hyppolit svn: r14412 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14412
16:40 Hyppolit padre on strawberry perl release tools for v2
16:40 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
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16:55 Hyppolit svn: r14413 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14413
16:55 Hyppolit tidy
16:55 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
17:13 Hyppolit svn: r14414 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14414
17:13 Hyppolit tidy some Padre code
17:13 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/ trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Dialog/
17:20 Hyppolit wiki page http://padre.perlide.org/trac/wiki/DownloadWindows changed by szabgab
17:23 szabgab El_Che:  I uploaded a new version of Padre on Strawberry Perl
17:23 szabgab it includes more stuff
17:23 szabgab and a padre.bat that sets the path befoe launching padre
17:34 Hyppolit wiki page http://padre.perlide.org/trac/wiki/DownloadWindows changed by szabgab
17:37 Hyppolit wiki page http://padre.perlide.org/trac/wiki/DownloadWindows changed by szabgab
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19:17 Hyppolit svn: r14415 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14415
19:17 Hyppolit Update the messages.pot file
19:17 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/share/locale/
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