Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #padre, 2011-07-08

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Time Nick Message
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02:01 Alias I have to give a talk on Padre to Sydney.pm on Tuesday, anyone know what the recommended way of installing it on Mac is?
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03:40 wallasey Alias: Padre on Mac
03:40 wallasey http://wiki.wxperl.info/w/inde​x.php/Mac_OS_X_Platform_Notes lists three ways
03:40 wallasey I've tested all.
03:41 wallasey Probably, perlbrew approach is best overall
03:41 wallasey If you want a binary dist, Citrus is quirky, but open.
03:42 wallasey I have PPMs for ActivePerl 5.12 at www.wxperl.co.uk/repository
03:43 Alias What's the quickest
03:43 Alias I'm giving a talk to a room of Perl people, so I assume at least some will want to do a quick dump and go
03:43 wallasey As a quick look around, Citrus - because all the Wx stuff is already included
03:44 Alias ok
03:44 Alias hmm, that Common Menubar thing is quite interesting
03:45 wallasey Yes - you need some active Mac developers to make Padre a bit more OSX friendly
03:45 Alias Yup
03:45 Alias But that's been hard while it's been hard to install
03:46 Alias Making it easier to install should fix the quality of it on Mac fairly quickly
03:46 wallasey And face up the the issue that the standard locations for user configs on MacOSX
03:46 wallasey Have spaces in them -- yugghhhh
03:46 Alias That shouldn't be a problem, should it?
03:46 Alias File::HomeDir will spit out a "correct" path
03:47 wallasey True, that will work
03:47 wallasey But if you wanted to be truly OSX'sh you probably ought to use other locations
03:48 wallasey but that'll keep for the future I guess
03:48 Alias truly? :)
03:48 Alias File::HomeDir calls the official Mac system calls
03:48 wallasey Yes - it gets you your 'Home' directory
03:48 Alias I don't see how we can do much better
03:48 Alias No, it gets your application data directory
03:48 Alias We don't use home
03:49 Alias File::HomeDir->my_data
03:50 Alias Mac::SystemDirectory::NSApp​licationSupportDirectory()
03:51 Alias Of course, it's entirely possible that's not working right for some reason or another
03:51 wallasey I now, I contributed some minor fixes to Mac::SystemDirectory so it would work on the bizarre configs you need for Wx on Mac
03:51 wallasey now = know
03:51 Alias I didn't implement the mac or linux drivers, I just marshall fixes from others
03:51 Alias BTW, how much influence do you have on the Wx.pm module
03:52 Alias You're releasing it now I see, but are you able to make substantive changes?
03:52 wallasey One thing for your talk - 0.86 has issues - now fixed in trunk I think - with settings
03:52 Alias Ya, I noticed :)
03:53 Alias My main problem with Wx is that it doesn't do constants as constants
03:53 wallasey Wx - I can do the work for substansive changes - but I would always run such by Mattia first out of courtesy
03:53 Alias The AUTOLOAD stuff seems to do more harm than good, because the compiler can't optimise it away
03:54 Alias I've been wanting to have all the constants come into existance at Wx::wxCONSTANT_NAME at compile time as proper constants
03:54 Alias That would simplify the games I need to play in Padre::Wx and quite possibly speed up or reduce the compiled opcode trees for lots of things
03:55 Alias Wx really does expect you to import constants, but that's not scalable
03:56 Alias You end up spending multiple megs of memory just to keep all those system table entries around
03:56 Alias Or lots of code to maintain to do fine grained control of importing
03:56 Alias I think I managed to estimate once that Padre would consume 10+ meg of ram just in constants
03:57 Alias (Which is why Padre always uses Wx::wxCONSTANT_NAME
03:57 Alias )
03:58 wallasey Hmm - I recall you having a conversation on wx list. I'll take a look at that and then get to grips with how Wx does constants internally. I think I did the hard part by getting to grips with how Wx does C++ structure to perl structure binding.
03:59 wallasey Maybe constants will be simples :)
03:59 Alias Thanks
03:59 Alias Hopefully
03:59 Alias Especially if you have all the relevant C++ mojo
03:59 Alias We've been a bit light on the C-fu since we lost Stephen to real world stuff
03:59 Alias :)
04:00 wallasey My C++ mojo is a mere whiff of competence - but I like to think I'm persistent :)
04:00 Alias I'll probably ask for your help at some point to investigate the bugs in the threading API
04:00 Alias You're certainly persistant
04:00 Alias That's how I managed to get Strawberry rolling
04:00 Alias Seeing as I know nothing about windows installation
04:00 Alias Just keep iterating
04:01 Alias Threading has some weird problem where the threads go zombie or block on PlThreadEvent or something
04:01 Alias But that's a hard problem
04:01 Alias Fixing the constant generation is relatively straight forward :)
04:01 wallasey I think you are right :)
04:01 Alias afk meeting
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05:20 szabgab New -> Perl Distribution still crashes padre in trunk   but there is a (New) version of it
05:20 Alias (New) is my FormBuilder replacement
05:20 szabgab What's the story? Can we get rid of the old one?
05:20 Alias It shouldn't have made it to prod
05:20 Alias I don't think it works yet
05:21 szabgab so I comment out both
05:21 Alias Actually, it might even have a dev wrapper around it
05:21 szabgab cause the old one crashes now
05:21 * Alias tries it
05:22 Alias WORKSFORME
05:22 Alias I don't really like the current one anyways though :)
05:22 szabgab I get Usage: Wx::Button::GetDefaultSize(THIS) at D:/work/padre/Padre/lib/Padre/Wx/Dialog.pm line 461.
05:22 Alias That got fixes
05:22 Alias fixed
05:23 szabgab hmm, let me try to svn up again, maybe I was not on trunk?
05:23 szabgab r14851
05:23 Hyppolit Changeset #14851 http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14851
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05:23 szabgab that is HEAD
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05:24 szabgab oh I have some unmet dependencies
05:24 Alias Ta da!
05:24 Alias :)
05:24 Alias Yeah, I think it was "fixed" in Wx or something
05:24 szabgab ah
05:25 * szabgab installing Wx
05:25 szabgab Alias: have you seen my blog post about the name I am looking for?
05:26 Alias I'm cool with temporarily removing the New Distribution functionality though
05:27 Alias Now that the wxFormBuilder stuff is finished off, I'm going back to replacing more Wx::Dialog classes with form builder ones after this weekend
05:27 szabgab kmx suggested I should talk to Curtis about maybe turning my "Super giant Perl" into "Strawberry Professional" or "Strawberry Extended"
05:27 Alias Not going to happen, as long as you aren't using MSI
05:27 Alias We can't have two different versions of strawberry using entirely different installers
05:28 Alias You can use a non-installing Zip file, or a Portable version maybe...
05:28 Alias But not an installer
05:28 szabgab That sounds like the smaller issue, the bigger one is if you even wanted to have all this stuff included in either of those?
05:28 szabgab the smaller issue to solve, I mean
05:29 Alias oh, maybe I need to read the blog :)
05:29 szabgab I assume either of you could actually teach me how to build the MSI things, unless it actually requires coding in C++
05:30 Hyppolit svn: r14852 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14852
05:30 Hyppolit When a lock exists (and then is released) during global destruction, the owner of the locker may no longer exist. In this case, don't do the special Wx::AuiNotebook sizing workaround logic.
05:30 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/lib/Padre/
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05:31 Hyppolit svn: r14853 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14853
05:31 Hyppolit When a lock exists (and then is released) during global destruction, the owner of the locker may no longer exist. In this case, don't do the special Wx::AuiNotebook sizing workaround logic.
05:31 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/
05:31 szabgab Alias: and/or  my e-mail :)
05:31 Alias Building the MSI just requires you install and use the Perl::Dist::Strawberry module
05:31 Alias Which does all the work
05:31 Alias And then you sub-class it
05:31 Alias Or at least, that's what you did when I was maintaining it
05:31 Alias Curtis has some relatively cargo cultish ideas about splitting out functionality I'm not a fan of
05:32 Alias And I don't know that Perl::Dist::Strawberry actually builds strawberry out the box any more
05:32 szabgab I don't want to build Strawberry myself
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05:33 szabgab I'd like to start from an already built Strawberry and just add a few (or a lot) of modules
05:33 Alias I'm pretty sure if you use Perl::Dist::Chocolate it consumes Strawberry via a merge module
05:33 szabgab and maybe add some configuration
05:33 Alias That was the idea anyway
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05:35 szabgab and conceptually? all the stuff I would want to add?
05:36 Hyppolit svn: r14854 | adamk++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14854
05:36 Hyppolit Noting the second half of the UNC change
05:36 Hyppolit trunk/Padre/
05:36 Alias Strawberry Professional really hasn't been defined properly
05:36 Alias Other than at a conceptual product level
05:37 Alias url to the blog post?
05:37 szabgab http://szabgab.com
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05:39 szabgab I prefer the name "Extended Strawberry Perl"
05:39 szabgab than professional
05:39 szabgab I think it conveys my thoughts better
05:40 szabgab oh and cl;ick on the permalink to see the comments
05:50 Alias Well, the original concept was that it's a Perl distribution for people on Windows that are (or are training to be) professional Perl developers
05:50 Alias So the core set of additions like Padre and such are things that such people need
05:51 szabgab yes I know that but in my distro I'd like to go beyond that
05:51 Alias Strawberry Perl Complete?
05:51 Alias "As much as we can possibly jam into one distro"
05:51 szabgab Extended sounds better
05:51 szabgab complete is just too, err complete :)
05:52 Alias Trouble is that Extended is relative
05:52 Alias Extended compared to what
05:52 Alias And does that mean Professional isn't Extended?
05:52 Alias Or Professional is an Extended Extended?
05:52 szabgab no Extend is extending even professional
05:52 szabgab IMHO
05:53 Alias So it's Strawberry Perl Professional Extended?
05:53 szabgab once professional is out
05:53 * Alias afk
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06:35 Hyppolit svn: r14855 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14855
06:35 Hyppolit AppVersion of the Padre on Strawberry package
06:35 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
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07:00 szabgab maybe it should be called Kickstart Perl ?
07:00 Sewi Call it like a Ubuntu package: perl-dev :-)
07:00 El_Che no
07:00 El_Che kickstart is redhat automatic install system
07:01 El_Che it sounds like an scripting language geared for that use
07:01 szabgab "Sweet Perl Suit"
07:03 tome Hi all, a week or so ago I was working on packaging a new padre for OSX as a dmg. If anyone is interested I was hoping that Cava Packager would work, since that would be a nice easy solution, but I had major problems with it, and I may end up posting on their mailing list to see if someone has advice. According to the docs, it *should* be able to easily package up the latest perl+cpan w/ padre. Anyway I may get more time
07:03 tome to play this Friday. I also tried perl pp briefly, but no luck on creating a single standalone bundle.
07:10 szabgab tome: Mark jsut told me he encountered some issue with Cava packagin Padre
07:10 szabgab and was fixing those issue
07:10 szabgab please do get in touch with him to share your work
07:11 szabgab Mark Dootson, who wrote Cava
07:11 szabgab and no PAR and Padre dislike each other
07:11 tome Hi szabgab, I'll do so. I know there was a bug in their scintilla rule (or the lack thereof) but I was having other issues too
07:12 szabgab I am sure Mark will be happy to get thos bug reports
07:12 szabgab as he wants Cava to work perfect
07:12 tome It would be awesome if cava could package padre and we'd have a very easy description of how to do it, since all the work of getting Padre on a clean perl in OSX has already been done by others (I just scripted it)
07:13 tome Thanks szabgab, is he working on packaging Padre as well? Wouldn't want to duplicate his effort
07:13 szabgab exactly, it is better to share the effort
07:15 tome cool, ok thanks for the update, I'll reach out to him.
07:16 tome szabgab: can you tell me a little more about why PAR wouldn't work, what does padre do that is special other than needing to be run from wxPerl
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07:20 Sewi tome: Padre requires a perl binary for syntax checking and running things, PAR does not allow direct access to the packed perl binary
07:21 Sewi But we may assume that a perl is preinstalled on every Mac and use this one, would be worth a try.
07:21 tome oh no that would be terrible
07:21 tome : (
07:21 Sewi why?
07:22 tome the OSX perl is old, I run perlbrew for development
07:22 tome i would want padre to use my local perl for syntax checking etc.
07:22 szabgab tome: IMHO there should be two packages
07:22 tome at worst, I'd want it to use the one it's packaged with
07:22 szabgab one is Padre stand alone that would use an external perl for running things using F5
07:22 szabgab it could use system perl or a perlbrew perl
07:23 Sewi tome: You could always define another perl in the settings
07:23 szabgab but it would come with an internal perl version that the end user should not care
07:23 Sewi tome: And we could teach Padre to either detect perlbrew or do something like "which perl" to get the binary.
07:23 szabgab Sewi: that only works for some of the things
07:24 szabgab but that should be fixed
07:24 szabgab tome: the other package should be a perl that happens to include padre as well and then you don't need the perlbrew
07:24 szabgab I think these two are for different cases and for different peopl
07:24 Sewi But having a working PAR packed Padre for Mac would be one step ahead, I think we shouldn't care about _which_ binary to use as long as we could assume that there is one.
07:25 szabgab Sewi: we were down the road of PAR and it cannot work
07:25 szabgab as it is now
07:25 Sewi Once the Padre-PAR is working, we could care about which perl to use
07:25 szabgab or
07:25 El_Che lo
07:25 El_Che a bug we need to big
07:25 szabgab actually I think I fixed the issue we had with PAR
07:25 Sewi szabgab: I went through the IRC logs lately and found no other reason than the missing perl binary
07:25 El_Che : windows do not close when clicking on the X icon
07:25 El_Che they close with ctrl +w
07:26 szabgab Sewi: yeah the issue  was the missing perl binary that we needed to build the padre datbase
07:26 szabgab so it could not be an external perl
07:26 szabgab but I think I fixed it a while ago
07:26 szabgab I just never went further in trying PAR again
07:27 szabgab El_Che: that's NOT GOOD
07:27 Sewi szabgab: This is what I found: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​padre/2009-09-11#i_1491574
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07:27 tome my thinking is that Padre should have a setting that tells it which perl to use to run all syntax check,etc.  Once you have that, then I don't see yet how you can have two packages, since the point of packaging padre is avoiding having the end user compile all the wx* stuff. If they can compile everything, then they can cpanm padre (which should work)
07:28 szabgab El_Che: they seem to be closing for me on trunk on Windows
07:28 El_Che szabgab: that is a very bad impression, so needs to be fixed before the release
07:28 tome I don't 'get' the padre-not-shipped with perl, since to me that's just cpan no?
07:28 szabgab Sewi: yeah I remember that issue, that is still not done in PAR but I think now we don't need the external binary any more
07:29 szabgab someone could try that in their free time :)
07:29 Sewi tome: There is such a setting :-)
07:30 tome Sewi: cool, so then I'm still not sure what a 'padre that uses the system perl' means
07:30 tome but I realize I'm being dense as I'm pretty tired
07:30 tome also, from what I read padre on OSX needs 32bit perl
07:31 szabgab tome: peple can always intsall padre using cpan, more or less
07:32 tome szabgab: not on osx, alas, since it requires 32bit perl (I read, didn't try non-32)
07:32 tome do you agree?
07:32 tome not padre, to be clear but the newer wx
07:40 szabgab tome: that's what I hear
07:41 szabgab but you can brew perl and install there right?
07:41 tome well not exactly, because the brew is padre specific
07:41 tome its 32 bit
07:41 tome you don't want to run your actual product on that during dev
07:42 tome since dev is probably 64 bit? or who knows
07:42 tome the padre perl has enough restrictions that i personally want to sandbox it
07:42 tome so basically yes you can do exactly what my script does
07:43 tome set up a brew 'sandbox' build 32 bit perl in it, and then set up an alias to Padre that sets the brew env for the padre command to the sandbox
07:43 tome and that script is really simple
07:43 tome I'd be happy to post it
07:43 Sewi El_Che: WORKSFORME, too.
07:44 tome cava for me would just package that brew sandbox into a DMG
07:44 tome or pp
07:45 szabgab tome: right so that's for people who want a padre and want a separate perl they brew themsleves
07:46 szabgab but there are other people who just start using perl for example and don't know how to brew
07:46 tome right, totally. and the DMG is for those people
07:46 tome cause they get the whole sandbox
07:46 tome with all the right modules, already built, AND we don't mess up their perl
07:47 szabgab tome: they don't have a perl
07:47 tome the system perl
07:47 szabgab the beginners that is
07:47 szabgab but that's old right?
07:47 szabgab and has few modules
07:47 szabgab I'd like to give a beginner a package that has *everything* in it
07:47 tome right, yes, they may be tempted to try cpanm (er cpan -i) Padre even... which is bad : )
07:48 tome szabgab: isn't that the DMG I'm talking about?
07:48 szabgab nope
07:48 tome it's the whole 32bit perl + wx + padre
07:48 szabgab becuase people who know how to brew perl
07:48 szabgab can install whatever they need for their development using cpanm
07:49 szabgab and they don't want to install 700 Mb including tons of module
07:49 szabgab they onl need the editor and its plugins
07:49 szabgab that's DMG too of course
07:49 szabgab but that DMG is way bigger
07:50 szabgab and the padre inside that DMG will ue its own perl asthe development perl
07:50 szabgab while the stand-alone padre will use an extrenal perl (euther system or the one you brewed)
07:51 tome ok so there is monolithpadre which is (32bit perl + base cpan + wx + padre) that's the Big one you say.
07:51 tome then you propose a minipadre dmg
07:51 tome that has...?
07:51 tome no extra cpan other than what padre + wx needs?
07:52 tome oh i see now sorry
07:52 tome basically you want a package that is just padre + wx
07:52 tome no perl
07:52 El_Che Sewi, szabgab : it works here again, mm
07:52 szabgab tome: no :)
07:52 tome sorry, tell me one more time if you have the patience :)
07:52 tome late here for me...
07:53 szabgab 1) perl + wx + padre + padre::plugin::*some
07:53 tome right, that's the one I'm working on now
07:53 szabgab 2) (1) + Moose + everything else on CPAN
07:53 tome oh
07:53 tome Got it
07:53 szabgab or maybe just half of CPAN
07:53 tome finally
07:53 tome : )
07:53 szabgab :)
07:53 tome you want 'PERL DEVELOPMENT IN A DMG'
07:54 szabgab the former is for people who know how to brew
07:54 szabgab the latter for people who don't know or don't want to brew
07:54 tome why do you say that though
07:54 tome the former works for people who do not brew
07:54 szabgab why do I sy what?
07:54 tome "he former is for people who know how to brew"  The former does not require brew, or anything
07:54 szabgab oh works, you mean they can edit files right?
07:55 szabgab szabgab: it does not require for its own running right
07:55 Alias "Perl Development in a DMG" would be pretty close to a Strawberry Perl Professional for Mac definition
07:55 szabgab but if you want to write modern perl you would still need to install a large chunk of CPAN and maybe even brew a perl for yourself, right?
07:56 Alias First step to having separate "The Perl that Padre runs on" and "The Perl that Padre executes code with" would probably be config entries
07:56 tome szabgab: now I understand, yes
07:56 szabgab and that's OK because you know how to do it
07:56 szabgab but beginners don't know
07:56 tome brew is not required for Padre, but if you don't want to use old mac perl, you need brew
07:56 szabgab exactly
07:57 szabgab and the larger package wold just eliminate that extra work
07:57 szabgab from the end user
07:57 tome szabgab: well those two things are really easy, I agree with Alias, it's just a different build config to pull in more files
07:57 tome but in the future could do cool things like set up a nice
07:57 Alias Padre::Perl is where the "Where is perl" logic is kepy
07:57 Alias Padre::Perl is where the "Where is perl" logic is kept
07:57 Alias But mostly that assumes you want to run the SAME Perl as the one Padre is executing with
07:58 szabgab Alias: as far as I rememeber and as far as Mark told me there are some parts of padre
07:58 szabgab that still don;t use that info
07:58 Alias So Padre::Perl is there for Padre to execute parts of itself inside itself
07:58 szabgab traversing @INC
07:58 Alias Like the database migration scripts
07:58 tome web dev env for them using Plack / Catalyst / Dancer/ etc.
07:58 szabgab Alias: I think I changed the database migration to use do {}
07:58 szabgab and not external perl
07:58 szabgab but I am not sure :)
07:59 Alias uuuhhh, that's a pretty bad idea
07:59 szabgab we should check
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07:59 Alias They are supposed to be isolated
07:59 szabgab it workd
07:59 szabgab :)
07:59 Alias It APPEARED to work
07:59 Alias And it worked for the current set of scripts
07:59 szabgab I did not see anything in there that would require extrnal work
07:59 szabgab isolation that is
08:00 szabgab right, so maybe the current set of scripts don't require isolation?
08:00 Alias right
08:00 szabgab then we should stick to that kind of scripts :)
08:00 Alias At least when used the way we currently use them
08:00 Alias Then they shouldn't be scripts
08:00 Alias We should turn them into modules or something
08:00 szabgab probably right
08:01 szabgab or not probably
08:01 szabgab just right
08:01 szabgab but I did not want to go that far against you plans :)
08:01 tome Alias, you mentioned that the DMG of padre that includes tons of cpan + maybe even some more utilities is looking like Strawberry Perl Professional
08:02 Alias So instead you broke the feature that actually mattered, while hiding the fact you did it? :/
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08:02 tome Does that worry anyone? I wouldn't want to cannibalize a business that supports Perl
08:02 szabgab szabgab++
08:02 Alias Granted, this IS easier to revert :)
08:02 Alias tome: Strawberry Perl isn't a business
08:02 tome ah, I got confused by the 'Professional'
08:02 Alias It's a 3 page website that goes out of it's way to look at least somewhat professional :)
08:02 tome i don't know anything about it
08:03 szabgab tome: we just had a discussion with Alias regarding the "big huge perl" I wanted
08:03 Alias Strawberry Perl Professional will be also free, but "For Professionals"
08:03 Alias Basically
08:03 tome is that windows only?
08:03 Alias Right
08:03 tome ah
08:03 Alias Well, so far
08:03 szabgab tome: you are not alone with that confusion
08:03 Alias Certainly Strawberry's core code is an MSI builder
08:03 tome apparently Larry uses it ; )
08:03 Alias I know, he told me. And I added that to the image :)
08:03 szabgab I heard a few people syaing they don't want to use professional as this is for their home usage
08:04 tome Alias: so you are the man-(woman)-behind-the-strawberry?
08:04 Alias If the name becomes a problem we can change it
08:04 Alias tome: Founder, spiritual leader, not the current maintainer
08:05 tome cool!
08:05 szabgab the cult of Strawberry where alias is the spiritual leader :)
08:06 Alias Not much of a leader
08:06 tome so then strawberry has already defined a good set of 'platform' packages that should be there for the large DMG?
08:06 Alias Mostly just product definition, and occasionally stamping a foot and saying "Too complicated, less clicks!"
08:06 szabgab I managed to add our butterfly as a background to my youtube channel now if I could also add a link in there :)
08:06 Alias Strawberry has a product definition that is suitable for you
08:06 Alias "Perl for Windows, for people that know Perl but don't know Windows"
08:07 Alias So it's the core, plus all the modules that are needed to install other modules
08:07 Alias Plus pre-configured settings for CPAN
08:07 tome and if we keep them in sync, then maybe one day we can break out the Win specific stuff, and then any improvement in things like a dancer auto-install that 'just works' can be shared
08:07 Alias Plus some super-common things that are really hard to install yourself (like database drivers for MySQL, Pg, etc)
08:07 Alias No way in hell you'll end up with a common base
08:08 szabgab So in a similar way my iea is "Perl for Windows, for people that don't know Perl"
08:08 Alias Doing things the MSI way is really twisty
08:08 Alias szabgab: That was always Professional
08:08 Alias "Perl for Windows, for people that know Windows but don't know Perl"
08:08 szabgab I would not even include the "know Windows" part : )
08:08 Alias We maybe bloated it a bit too much
08:08 tome I don't see the word professional on this website
08:08 tome am I crazy?
08:09 szabgab tome: it is a planned package
08:09 Alias tome: That's because we try to keep the site small, easy to maintain and professional
08:09 tome ah
08:09 tome hehe
08:09 Alias We don't talk about anything in public unless it works
08:09 Alias You can't even see the beta release page unless you know where it is
08:09 tome gagaga
08:09 tome oops
08:09 tome hahaha
08:09 tome nice
08:09 tome well hidden
08:09 Alias You'll notice that we're violating that rule slightly atm
08:09 Alias http://strawberryperl.com/beta/
08:09 tome yes
08:09 tome already there
08:09 Alias right
08:10 tome brilliant
08:10 Alias The core idea of Straweberry is to simplify everything
08:10 Alias So the simple website just kind of went with it
08:10 Alias And websites with no content are really easy to maintain :)
08:10 tome it makes me hungry
08:10 szabgab Alias:  I think, while "it works" is a nice expression in my planned package the applications don't have to be perfect to be included
08:10 Alias That's also intentional
08:11 Alias szabgab: Fine by me
08:11 tome so strawberry perl will always be free?
08:11 szabgab that's probably the reason it should not be the same as Straberry Professonal
08:11 Alias But Strawberry doesn't ship till stuff works
08:11 tome 'cause I think if we go down the road with Cava, it needs to be
08:11 Alias I really agree
08:11 tome but that's just my thinking
08:11 tome Cava seems very strict about charging for things
08:11 Alias We do a 64-bit package, but it's got heaps less in it
08:11 Alias We just drop everything that doesn't work
08:12 szabgab tome: we can use Cava free of charge but it is not open source
08:12 szabgab but there is Citrus perl from Mark which is free
08:12 szabgab and includes Wx already
08:12 tome szabgab: I guess I mean that cava seems strict that you can only use it for free if what you're doing is absolutely not going to make you money
08:13 szabgab tome: I think we can always discuss this with Mark  :)
08:13 tome I saw that but wanted to stay away, I wanted to see if I could get a DMG with a straight perlbrew, since cava *should* be able to do it
08:13 szabgab cava is not citrus
08:14 tome szabgab: we agree
08:16 tome ok then I'll talk to Mark about the problems I had with Cava, and I'll see if I can make more progress this week. I won't keep trying pp for now unless you guys think it should work.
08:17 tome Thanks for the steering
08:18 Alias n/p
08:18 Alias If you can give me a big bang drop in working Padre package by Tuesday though, that would be neat
08:18 Alias :)
08:18 Alias I'll give it away to Sydney.pm
08:18 Alias Who are quite interested in Padre on Mac
08:18 tome hm....
08:18 tome a deadline : )
08:18 Alias If you can automated the perlbrew build process, that would be even more awesome
08:18 tome that's even better
08:18 Alias Cause then other people can take over when you get bored :)
08:18 tome Alias: that is already done
08:19 Alias Where's the code
08:19 Alias Perl::Dist::Mac?
08:19 tome oh snap : )
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08:19 tome I hear ya...
08:19 tome where would you like it, seriously?
08:19 tome i know nothing about packaging
08:19 Alias That's how Vanilla started
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08:20 Alias I issued a challenge, and you could only win if you supplied the automation code
08:20 Alias That's how Strawberry was created
08:20 Alias We took that initial code and packaged it up
08:20 Alias Perl::Dist::Mac or Perl::Dist::DMG would be the logical place
08:20 Alias If you like you can put it into my svn repo
08:20 tome one thing I saw was that I don't know if you can script Cava?
08:21 Alias About 50 other major Perl people have write if they want to help
08:21 Alias (I'm assuming you are doing it the perlbrew -> DMG direct way)
08:21 tome i was planning on using Cava actually
08:21 Alias oh
08:21 tome if there is a more direct way I'd love to know about it!
08:21 Alias Is there any other easy way to make a DMG?
08:22 Alias That's scriptable
08:22 Alias I'm not a Mac person, I have no idea
08:22 tome the DMG is easy, it's a DMG that runs wxPerl properly such that it 'works' with OSC
08:22 tome OSX
08:22 tome Cava has some loader bin I think
08:22 tome that Mark? wrote
08:22 tome someone wrote
08:22 Alias ah
08:22 tome that's my assumption right now, which could be total BS
08:22 tome i think pp has something similar
08:22 Alias Well then, make Perl::Dist::Macava?
08:23 tome "Mattia Barbon for providing the myldr binary loader code."
08:23 tome this is from the par pp page
08:23 tome so I assumed that was the loader for OSX, what the hell do i know :D
08:24 tome Alias: I will do these things: 1- get a script that creates a Padre runnable perl where you tell it, using brew and sandbox
08:24 tome 2- see if I can get Cava to package DMG
08:24 tome 3- see if I can script Cava by talking to those folks, or else see if Mark can suggest something
08:25 tome I can def. do 1 in the next few days
08:25 Alias Don't ask me how to do anything on Mac
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08:25 Alias oh eawit
08:25 Alias It wasn't a question :)
08:25 tome I'm confused but that's o
08:25 tome k
08:25 Alias I'm happy to find you test users for anything
08:25 tome cool
08:25 Alias If it's just a zip file you expand into /opt/padre, then I'll just give them that
08:26 Alias Whatever is simple
08:26 tome most likely to work: a script that does everything from wholecloth including compiling perl
08:27 tome that's my guess right now, but it also takes a while to build obv.
08:27 Alias Yup
08:27 Alias I've spent more time waiting for Strawberry to build than you can possibly imagine :)
08:27 Alias Run for 4 hours, observe crash, tweak a line, run for another 4 hours... :)
08:28 Alias I think the last version of Strawberry I personally built took about 16 hours to do all the variations
08:28 tome ug
08:28 Alias That's running ALL the test suites for all the CPAN modules and such
08:28 tome we should be parallel building these things
08:28 Alias That was on a 4 core machine
08:28 Alias Builds all ran in parallel
08:29 Alias Test suites chewed up wait more time
08:29 Alias And parallel testing is a harder problem
08:29 tome oh yes, I am usually tempted ( but do not ) to turn that all off
08:29 Alias I turn it off temporarily when I'm working on something way at the end of the process, and I'm in the debugger
08:29 tome i could provide that as an option to the script : )
08:29 Alias You should, it's worth it just for debugging
08:29 tome make-my-padre --live-dangerous
08:30 Alias When you already know most of it passes, you just want to run and watch step 32 and see it writes the correct file
08:30 tome make-my-padre --by-the-sword
08:30 Alias --notest
08:30 Alias Same as CPAN
08:30 tome sure sure... (boring0
08:30 tome there will be aliases
08:31 tome actually I can write the script tomorrow
08:31 tome wtf
08:31 tome is today friday
08:31 tome ????
08:31 Alias It's 6:31pm Friday night here
08:32 tome it's 1.32 friday here
08:32 tome i thought it was tuesday
08:32 tome : (
08:33 Alias hahahaha
08:34 bowtie Alias, hi
08:36 * tome writing script, also trying to finish all work he had to do for Wed & thursday
08:36 Alias bowtie: Hi
08:36 Alias Neato database client
08:36 Alias Recipe 4
08:36 Sewi 10:36 here, but still Friday :)
08:37 Alias bowtie: I changed some stuff here and there to make the plugin lighter when it isn't enabled. You use a shit-ton of heavy modules for no obvious reason other than (I suspect) because Perl Best Practices said you should
08:37 bowtie Alias, I like your xt/ testing abstraction,
08:37 Alias That adds 10-20meg to the startup memory overhead of Padre
08:37 Alias Even when the plugin is turned off
08:38 Alias I'd also ditch Moose if you can, there's another 10-20meg of ram right there
08:38 Alias Mouse is less offensive if you must use something
08:39 Alias diagnostics is 2-3meg, English is like 1.5meg
08:39 Alias utf8 is pointless if you don't use unicode
08:39 Alias etc etc
08:39 bowtie Alias, I am hoping to replace Moose with Mouse or Moo in future. as for the PBP look it is because it's a cookbook and I need a standard to work to, hence Moden Perl as well
08:40 Alias I wouldn't do that
08:40 Alias Modern Perl and friends aren't designed to produce programs that need to start and stop
08:40 Alias They load so many modules that you can only really use them for programs that daemonise
08:40 Alias MooseX::Declare loads 40meg
08:41 Alias perl5i is like 30
08:41 Alias parent is ok, but don't use it -norequire
08:41 Alias Use parent INSTEAD of the use Module; @ISA =
08:41 Alias So use it the way it's meant to be ised
08:41 Alias used
08:42 bowtie Alias, ok, i get it, thanks cool, :)
08:42 Alias You ok if I make more changes to it?
08:42 bowtie Alias, did you get time to look at wx::frame
08:42 Alias I only really did what I felt was the minimum that it needed for when it was disabled
08:42 Alias So Wx::Frame is recipe 4?
08:42 Alias I can load it multiple times ok
08:42 Alias Doesn't crash for me
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08:43 Alias I gotta run, but might be back on IRC in half an hour or so
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08:43 bowtie Alias, look in fbp/recipe04/FrameFB.fbp it will generate but not stable
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09:05 Sewi feels like "replace in selection" is broken again, could anybody confirm this?
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10:27 Hyppolit svn: r14856 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14856
10:27 Hyppolit add modules to the next version of Padre on Strawberry Perl
10:27 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
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11:18 bowtie1 sorry for noise just testing another irc client
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12:45 Hyppolit svn: r14857 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14857
12:45 Hyppolit add more modules to the Padre distribution
12:45 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
12:48 bowtie szabgab, I have added a mod to P-P-PerlTidy to use trunk/tools/perltidyrc when run from perl dev #1239
12:48 Hyppolit # 1239 :  Padre::Plugin::PerlTidy (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/1239 ]
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16:43 Hyppolit # 1247 :  Updated screen shots: come on one & all, join in the fun. (new enhancement) [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/1247 ]
16:45 Hyppolit # 1247 :  Updated screen shots: come on one & all, join in the fun. (new enhancement) new attachment [ http://padre.perlide.org/trac/ticket/1247 ]
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18:32 rindolf Hi all.
18:33 rindolf I am trying to install Padre on Windows 7 x86-64 and it warns about many files are marked read-only, and I have to say "retry" every time.
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18:55 rindolf Hi all.
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19:58 user_4727 how can I update perl once I've installed padre?
19:59 szabgab user_4727: plseas give us some more details
19:59 szabgab what os are you using?
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20:06 bowtie szabgab, I have added a ticket for new screen-shots, for the web site, will you bang the drum to get all active members to add an attachment to.
20:06 szabgab nope :)
20:06 szabgab tehre is a wiki page with screenshots I think
20:06 szabgab you can add the screenshots there and bag the drums
20:06 bowtie szabgab, so I have to go BANG BANG :)
20:07 szabgab bowtie++
20:07 bowtie szabgab, I know, I added it this afternoon :)
20:07 El_Che ios should be cracked if only out of principle
20:07 * El_Che is having fun ssh'ing to his ipod
20:08 El_Che claudio:/ root# uname -a
20:08 El_Che Darwin claudio 10.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 10.4.0: Wed Oct 20 20:14:45 PDT 2010; root:xnu-1504.58.28~3/RELEASE_ARM_S5L8930X iPod4,1 arm N81AP Darwin
20:08 Hyppolit svn: r14858 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14858
20:08 Hyppolit add more modules to the next distribution of Padre on Strawberry - I still need to decide on the name :)
20:08 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
20:08 bowtie El_Che, are you going to feed it green poison
20:08 szabgab I think it is still about 35C in my room
20:09 szabgab at 11 pm
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20:09 El_Che szabgab: you are closer to the equator nowadays :)
20:09 El_Che bowtie: idd, did that
20:09 szabgab El_Che: I think I am closer to fall asleeep soon :)
20:10 bowtie El_Che, so you are going to have flash, and upset jobs then ?
20:10 El_Che haven't tried flash yet there
20:10 El_Che but there are a lot of nice opensource tools available now
20:10 El_Che like habing a terminal + ssh
20:11 El_Che instead of paying for some crappy emulator
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20:11 szabgab I should have kept the whole distribution in a version control system
20:11 szabgab so I could see what each module adds to the package
20:11 szabgab I think with the next major version I'll try to do that
20:12 szabgab Zapelius: welcome
20:14 bowtie El_Che, are you going to put bcvi on it?
20:14 El_Che bcvi?
20:15 bowtie El_Che, http://sshmenu.sourceforge.net/articles/bcvi/
20:16 Zapelius szabgab, thanks :)
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20:27 szabgab Zapelius: are you really from .fi ?
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20:33 szabgab Zapelius: I was asking if you are from .fi as I am going to visit there in September and wanted to ask for suggestions, but I need to go to sleep soon
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20:40 rindolf Hi all.
20:41 szabgab hi rindolf
20:41 rindolf Today when I installed Padre from http://padre.perlide.org/download.html on my Win7 x86-64 machine, it kept prompting me for each individual file.
20:41 rindolf I had a previous installation of Strawberry perl-5.12.3.0.
20:41 szabgab did you try to install it on top an existing installation?
20:42 szabgab I never tried that so that might not work
20:42 szabgab especially if that was a real strawberry and not one of my derivatives
20:42 szabgab as the installation methods are different
20:43 szabgab currently the recommended way for upgrade is to uninstall the previous version
20:45 rindolf szabgab: ah.
20:45 Hyppolit svn: r14859 | szabgab++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14859
20:45 Hyppolit directions to build the Windows package
20:45 Hyppolit trunk/tools/
20:45 szabgab not ideal I know
20:46 rindolf Hmm... padre's version on Mandriva Cooker is padre-0.720.0-2-mdv2011.0.noarch
21:00 szabgab indeeed I have not seen jq for a while
21:00 szabgab I hope he is ok
21:05 rindolf szabgab: didn't he become a father?
21:05 rindolf szabgab: I think jq is now working primarily on Mageia and not on Mandriva.
21:06 szabgab then maybe you could ask him if you could help him with the packaging of Padre?
21:06 szabgab it would be nice to keep it up to date
21:07 szabgab and I just got in to g+, with that warm feeling I think I can call this a day
21:07 szabgab night&
21:20 Hyppolit svn: r14860 | bowtie++ | http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/14860
21:20 Hyppolit opps forgot to turn on caller_info, POD tweaks to correspond with guidance, alias++
21:20 Hyppolit trunk/Padre-Plugin-Cookbook/lib/Padre/Plugin/ trunk/Padre-Plugin-Cookbook/lib/​Padre/Plugin/Cookbook/Recipe04/
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